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Nightwave + alerts removal feedback


SilverBones
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9 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

Alternatively, you can look at everything provided.  DE has never given the community anything.  They released a commercial product, based off of funds from backers.  The released product had a minimum functionality to it, and to get more you'll need to spend money or time.  Players invested money, and in exchange (read: not reward) got platinum.  They spent platinum on items, and to skip grind.  People with more time than money grind, and allow paying players to skip the grind.  As time has gone on DE offered more cosmetic, more purchasing options, and has kept the same minimal need for servers by hosting almost everything as P2P.  The move toward "Open Worlds" is the first significant investment into a DE side recurring "gift" to the community.  It came with silly levels of grind, operator cosmetics, an economy built on grinding to grind, and was only rectified more than a year later.

Agree. Warframe is a "pay to progress faster" game. That means you are buying *TIME*, when you purchase something with the ingame currency (platinum). And that's a pretty great method to make real money from  a product to me, I get it. BTW if you insert a system where the players have to do unnecessary time consuming stuff, for a limited span of time and to get some kind of rewards (just like nightwave), well, that means you have increased the time people are *forced* to play the game...and in a game where time is a key factor for its business model, this is pretty a critical issue to me. 

Edited by (PS4)nating51
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I can't see it in this thread...

As far as I can see there is no indication in the game as to when the event will end. Assuming that Wolf Creds have to be spent before the end, it would be beneficial to have some message so that people aren't caught out and unable to spend them. I've not seen if the creds will follow the Plague Star standing model and carry forward to the next iteration of the event, but some form of "spend it soon" warning would be appreciated.

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11 hours ago, Riftmancer said:

The end-game players and completionists are going to try to do everything, but the players who aren't quite there might also feel as though they will miss out if they don't complete everything

You make a bunch of good points but the quote actually covers the major issue with Nightwave.  It is a system of tasks (or chores if you don't care for them) that you have to do now, or miss out completely, as any progress you make is wiped out at the end of it (minus rewards).
This is a huge alteration for Warframe on the whole which has always been a 'progress at your own pace' kind of game.

Prior to Nightwave you could do things as fast or as slow as the individual player wished, with no chance of missing out.  However that just isn't really a viable option given that over 10 weeks you have to do most of the tasks to achieve the rank 30 goal (including at least 1 elite per week, if you miss all elites you likely wont make 30 without huge numbers of captures). 
Warframe has been teaching players all along to seek out that 30th rank with gear and to maximise syndicates for the top level stuff, to presume that isn't the case now would be silly. Sure players can avoid maxing out Nightwave, but that is like saying you don't have to get a frame or weapon to rank 30, or a syndicate to max rank.

There is only 52 weeks in a year and for the concept not to even become stale or stagnant there is going to need to be around 5+ variants.  That simply means you will see each maybe once per year. Presuming the system just isn't replaced by something else before then.

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I doubt there is anything new to add after 85 pages, so just to drop my feedback.

Imo the big issue is the "10 weeks and then it`s over" format.
It adds pressure to play when you don`t really want to, it threatens you with missing out on things. Previously I logged in asking "what do I want to do today?", now I log in asking "what do I have to do?". Missing a week or two shouldn`t jeopardize a crazy 10 week-effort.

I like having those NW tasks, but I think it should rather be a weekly, endless loop where you can constantly earn currency for a weekly, endless shop.
As for the rewards that are currently in the timeline, they could instead be rewarded one by one for completing a week, or completing all elite tasks (if the system had no 10 week limit it wouldn`t matter if I can`t do an elite task yet, I could do it when the reward comes up next time).
Actually, this would have the added benefit of being able to balance those rewards to the difficulty/time-demand of the tasks.
 

About the tasks we have seen so far ... I am fine with everything except tasks which stop us from doing things at our own pace.
Using Formas, Statues etc., once you know such tasks exist you stop using those things when you want/need to, but start to strategize.
That aside there seem to be so many more options for tasks than what we have seen so far. But I suppose DE knows that, they just can`t code everything at once.

Lastly, imo the whole NW integration into the UI isn`t really good. E.g. it took me quite a while to notice the shop, since it`s just a small "press key" insert instead of a proper tab.
I also saw new players not even identifying the NW banner as a clickable element.

I hope a Nightwave-like system will stick around, but not in it`s current form.

Edited by D1sTrust
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I also think we need to have choices for more choice between Daily, Weekly and Elite Weekly missions.

This week, on consoles, we need for a weekly to complete 5 ayatan sculptures, which requires to find those ayatan sculptures; there is indeed a mission that give you one per week, if you're good enough at manoeuvering your Warframe (which is more difficult on console I guess, but probably doable) but how are we supposed to get the four other sculptures in a decent amount of time ? I'm even more surprised that I've read it's only 3 sculptures on PC, which seems a bit more doable but still a pretty bad weekly quest.

It gets worse when you think of the Elite Weekly at 5 sorties of console, which is a clear gatekeeping for late-game players. I consider Spy and Rescue missions in these sorties really difficult, because the gamepad controls don't allow for precise choice of which tile you want to turn - which make for longer deciphering - which makes for a failed mission because the damage output of the enemy is way too high. Except if you're high level enough to have maxed mods, which is maybe the goal there. But if it was, why the requirement is only 3 sorties on PC ? Still high, but a higher chance to avoid those Spy/Rescue missions that are usually gate lockers.

Now compared to both of those, the grindy 10 relics and 10 nightmare missions are very easy reputation points. However, they destroy the playtime you might have needed for other tasks, such as trying to get some Endo or some resources to be actually able to tackle those sorties or higher level stuff. But at least they seem and are doable.

The grindy "Complete 9 Invasion missions of any type" is okay though; I've seen some complaints but that seem more accessible than the 5 ayatan sculpture by far, and those invasion missions are a godsend for getting already built Fieldrons or Detonite Injections. 9 is maybe a bit too much as said; maybe 6 for the normal weekly and 12 for the elite weekly would have been decent choices ?

All in all, the moments I'm glad of Nightwave is whenever you have the most blend requirements possible. It means you'll deal with them quickly, grab the rewards, and continue to do pretty much what is most important to increase one's power after getting those reputation points and the associated rewards.

A solution for me would also to give a weekly cap on reputation points from weekly/daily missions, and give far more choices between difficult or missions requiring an optimized gears and pure grindy missions; like 15,000 points for the elite, but 6 possibles missions, each giving 5 000 points (up to 15000): 3 sorties, or 5 completed ayatan sculptures, or 5 consecutive waves of elite sanctuary onslaught, or 10 orb vallis mission, or kill 100 Eximus enemies, or open 10 relics.

There's currently absolutely no control over the difficulty or the time consumption of the tasks and that's, for me, a big problem.

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8 minutes ago, (NSW)pikachuyann said:

I also think we need to have choices for more choice between Daily, Weekly and Elite Weekly missions.

This week, on consoles, we need for a weekly to complete 5 ayatan sculptures, which requires to find those ayatan sculptures; there is indeed a mission that give you one per week, if you're good enough at manoeuvering your Warframe (which is more difficult on console I guess, but probably doable) but how are we supposed to get the four other sculptures in a decent amount of time ? I'm even more surprised that I've read it's only 3 sculptures on PC, which seems a bit more doable but still a pretty bad weekly quest.

It gets worse when you think of the Elite Weekly at 5 sorties of console, which is a clear gatekeeping for late-game players. I consider Spy and Rescue missions in these sorties really difficult, because the gamepad controls don't allow for precise choice of which tile you want to turn - which make for longer deciphering - which makes for a failed mission because the damage output of the enemy is way too high. Except if you're high level enough to have maxed mods, which is maybe the goal there. But if it was, why the requirement is only 3 sorties on PC ? Still high, but a higher chance to avoid those Spy/Rescue missions that are usually gate lockers.

Now compared to both of those, the grindy 10 relics and 10 nightmare missions are very easy reputation points. However, they destroy the playtime you might have needed for other tasks, such as trying to get some Endo or some resources to be actually able to tackle those sorties or higher level stuff. But at least they seem and are doable.

The grindy "Complete 9 Invasion missions of any type" is okay though; I've seen some complaints but that seem more accessible than the 5 ayatan sculpture by far, and those invasion missions are a godsend for getting already built Fieldrons or Detonite Injections. 9 is maybe a bit too much as said; maybe 6 for the normal weekly and 12 for the elite weekly would have been decent choices ?

All in all, the moments I'm glad of Nightwave is whenever you have the most blend requirements possible. It means you'll deal with them quickly, grab the rewards, and continue to do pretty much what is most important to increase one's power after getting those reputation points and the associated rewards.

A solution for me would also to give a weekly cap on reputation points from weekly/daily missions, and give far more choices between difficult or missions requiring an optimized gears and pure grindy missions; like 15,000 points for the elite, but 6 possibles missions, each giving 5 000 points (up to 15000): 3 sorties, or 5 completed ayatan sculptures, or 5 consecutive waves of elite sanctuary onslaught, or 10 orb vallis mission, or kill 100 Eximus enemies, or open 10 relics.

There's currently absolutely no control over the difficulty or the time consumption of the tasks and that's, for me, a big problem.

It's easy to get Ayatan sculptures. Ignore Maroo's mission if you find it difficult (I have yet to finish one on PC, I have better things to do with my time than looting an entire Void mission only to fail at the last hurdle because I don't have a maxed out speed frame). I've found the best way to get them is to run missions solo with max loot radar and collect everything. I've also been told that a max range Limbo is also good because his cataclysm will break all crates in a 45m radius. Syndicate missions are good for looting (getting all of the medallions really boosts Syndicate rank, which I then use to buy relic packs), but avoid Defence, Rescue, Interception/Excavation as it's too difficult to balance looting with the mission objective. Doing it in public isn't effective, because you can't trust everyone to take their time searching and I find them distracting.

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I guess it'll be a matter of having the Carrier's Looter Mod and run with the highest loot radar then; which is not so different from trying to get the three corpus caches in those sabotage missions (which I kinda hate), for the added bonus of having no frame restriction;

Doesn't remove the general idea that I would like to have some choice between quite difficult (gear checks or skill check) vs quite grindy missions and not have to do a mix of both for the next iteration of Nightwave.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)pikachuyann said:

I consider Spy and Rescue missions in these sorties really difficult, because the gamepad controls don't allow for precise choice of which tile you want to turn - which make for longer deciphering

Sorry for being a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to agree that tile-hacking with gamepad seems more difficult. I am playing on PC, but with a xbox controller, so I have the same problem.
I didn`t know ciphers (the saving grace for gamepad users) can be disabled on sorties, now I don`t even want to try them. 😕

Would be nice to see that reworked sometimes to make it more manageable for gamepad users.

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5 hours ago, AndyBeans said:

It's easy to get Ayatan sculptures.

The problem is that they don't always show up: Sculptures have a chance of spawning on a given map, as opposed to being a guaranteed spawn. For some people, one in every three runs might yield a sculpture. For others, it could be one out of every five...or worse.

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Yeah, pretty sad to see the folks in here trying to argue that the people who don't like nightwave, or don't like some things about it are wrong, and that others should like it because they like it.

People who dislike this stuff, they are not lying, they are not wrong, and their opinions are entirely valid. How they claim to feel, in all likelihood really is how they actually feel, whether it makes sense to you or not. Instead of trying to point out how they are wrong, or how their opinion is wrong, or saying to stop playing warframe if they don't like it, or other such childish and pedantic responses, trying to find solutions which can please them while yet retaining the things you like about NW would be so much more productive.

My suggestion is to bring back alerts, and to keep nightwave too. To improve alerts, and to improve nightwave as well.

Nightwave:

  • wolf creds should be nora creds and they should persist from one episode to the next.
  • wolf/nora creds should be earned in small amounts from every challenge. so people who just need something from offerings aren't forced to play through large portions of the episode.
  • Tier rewards should be players choice, pick one from the whole list, each tier. I know some will say, no way, you can't just take umbral forma at tier 2 and then drop nightwave. But why not? If nightwave is fun and the rewards are all good people will want to do as much as they can, but they won't feel cheated if they can't do it all. People will keep doing the challenges to get the wolf/nora creds as well, for nitain and what have you. This way they can get what they really want, no matter how much time they do or don't have, and then they can earn creds and pick up additional rewards at their own pace without feeling like they'll be punished for not having as much free time as others.
  • At the start of the episode, give players a couple of nightwave vouchers which can be used to skip a task. Just two is probably fine. Even for some players who can and will reach 30 without them, it would still go a long ways in relieving the pressure, or the feeling of being cheated by being locked out of tasks due to standing and such. It's not enough to bypass every task that requires standing, but it is enough that they won't feel clobbered by these tasks in the first week or two, to the point they aren't sure if they can even do nightwave to any meaningful degree.
  • The point is that this should not be forced, and it should not leave players investing large amounts of time to get some far off reward and then not getting it. Feeling forced to do nightwave for weeks on end to get one thing they want, is much worse than alerts were for some people,  and its the sort of thing that leaves some people feeling a bit exhausted by the time they get it. I bet a lot of people will take a break from wf once this episode is over, even if they get all the rewards. On the other hand, those who tried to get the umbral forma and wolf armor and yet in the end fail, will feel discouraged, even punished by the game, and many of them are liable to take a break from wf too. And that exhaustion and disappointment causing people to feel they need to take a break from wf, is the opposite of what was intended by nw, which was meant at least in part to increase player retention.
    I know that one dude is probably going to quote me and say 'it isn't forced and if you don't like nightwave, you don't have to do it, and you can go play destiny instead.' Honestly though this sort of response, which I've seen repeated numerous times in this lengthy thread, is simply obtuse, and kind of childish. We all like warframe, that is why we are here, we want to play warframe, and if we want to play warframe, then nightwave is all but required, because we need nitain to build warframes and gear, and those warframes and that gear are central to what warframe is. This sort of response though, it simply demonstrates someone being either willfully obtuse or a fundamental lack of insight into human psychology. No, no one has a gun to our heads, but that isn't the point either.
  • One more thing, add a toggle to disable repeating Nora voice broadcasts. When disabled, each of her voice recordings will play once, and only once. Maybe toggling it on and off again could reset this so that they each play again, once. Yeah cool, they tell a story, she is kind of the narrator of the episode, DE took the time to produce the content, and it's okay to play it as intended, but not over and over an over again...

Alerts:

  • Bring them back in an improved state. It seldom makes sense to remove content, and they could continue to serve as a nice alternative to nightwave for people who simply can't focus on the game daily for weeks on end.
  • Make alerts more elaborate involving multiple hops around the solar system, with branches at key points. Have increasingly valuable rewards for each hop, and have branches which lead to different rewards.
  • Have alert bosses randomly generated from lists of attributes/strengths/weaknesses/abilities/companions/weapons/etc., and have them use a cool modular character model system so that their appearnace is randomized as well.
  • Alerts should drop into players' alert ques where they will remain until they are either completed or superseded by new alerts, with the alert que retaining two alerts and removing the oldest one to make room for new ones.
  • Once you launch an alert from the alert que and complete it, it should be removed from the que, but it will only be removed from the que of the individual player that launched it.
  • So you can complete the same alert more than once by joining the games of players who have not launched it yet. However...
  • Completing the same alert more than once will give dwindling rewards, with successive completions granting rewards of progressively decreasing value.
  • Have bonus rewards for meeting various special conditions when completing alerts. Such as completing all stages of an alert with the same squad, different bonus rewards for completing individual legs of an alert solo, additional bonus rewards per player for completing individual legs of an alert with melee only, etc., etc..
  • The idea is to make the alerts more interesting and engaging, while also addressing the issue many had with missing alerts for rare items they needed, by making them more accessible via the alert que.
    It is even possible with this system to ask a friend to hold off completing an alert for an item one needs, say if one is out of town for an extended period. The friend can still complete other alerts since the que can hold 2, and as long as they do every new alert that comes up, then that 1 they didn't do won't get pushed out of the que so they could save it for for their buddy when he got back.

Alerts and Nightwave:

Finally these two systems could work together and complement each other, in all sorts of fun and interesting ways. Could be nightwave challenges to complete certain alerts, and there could be some special alerts based on the current nightwave episode. Like an alert which takes the players in pursuit of a large gang of saturn six fugitives which could grant some nice bonus nightwave standing for capturing a bunch of fugitives in the end (just one example off the top of my head). Also some alerts could include some of the wolf/nora creds as part of their rewards.


All these suggestions boil down to letting players play the way they like to play, let them explore the content they want to explore at the pace they are comfortable with, and reward them as they go at their own pace. Give them the tools to enjoy the game to its fullest, without making them feel forced, pressured, punished, discouraged, or exhausted. It is one thing for a quest to be challenging, or a mission to be hard, but it is something else for the way content is pushed to be demanding even when not on a mission. Nightwave could be great for retaining players and keeping them interested with episodic content that they can chip away comfortably without being a drag, or a chore, but rather just an opportunity. Alerts too could be just that much more content, adding life and interest to the warframe universe and offering an alternative means of acquiring some rare items and resources for those who simply can not devote the time needed to get them through the more stable source of nightwave. So everyone can play the game they love, the way they love to play it!
 

For the record I am a couple tiers away from 30 for nightwave. I'll finish it no problem. I have really not enjoyed it though, it has been kind of a drag, but not so much of a drag as to make it worth throwing away the rewards on offer. I'm not that new of a player, but I was away for years, and factions and standing are new to me so I had none when nightwave began.

For higher level players, there probably is not so much pressure and that pressure is part of what makes these tasks feel like chores and time sinks. For instance, if you have the required standing and no problem doing orb mother, and profit taker and gilding modular items, and have sorties unlocked, etc.. then you don't have to worry too much about missing a task or two, just because you don't feel like doing it. or because you don't have time, or whatever. However for players without high standing in cetus and fortuna we learned early on that there may be numerous tasks in any given week which we can not accomplish, period.

This left us feeling like we had better do all of the tasks we possibly can do, and even then, still being uncertain whether we would be able to reach 30, or even get close. Even more so for casual players who don't follow the forums, which are many, because they had no idea how long this would last.

So for higher level players who probably have plenty of forma, and forma BPs, they could choose not to use 3 forma for that task because they didn't want to, and not have to worry that maybe next week they would be locked out of half the tasks. While a lower level player who might only have 5 forma, and no BPs would feel much greater pressure to use those forma, essentially negating one of the rewards they are working towards, and possibly wasting a forma on an mk1 weapon or something silly like that.

I'm trying to look at things from a broader perspective than my own here. I don't want to ruin nightwave for anyone who loves it or thinks it is perfect, but I do think it could be tweaked to be better for everyone who doesn't like it, without ruining it for those who do.

Edited by Arc5in
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41 minutes ago, Arc5in said:

For the record I am a couple tiers away from 30 for nightwave. I'll finish it no problem. I have really not enjoyed it though, it has been kind of a drag, but not so much of a drag as to make it worth throwing away the rewards on offer.

I completely agree with your post and wish i could give it 2 upvotes.

The players i've met that already completed nightwave said that the biggest reward is that they don't have to do any more challenges. For now. Until next season that is. But almost all of them (10+) will not even start with the next season because the only reason they kept on going was that they didn't want to lose all their effort and the grind they already put into it.

Same situation with several of the twitch partners, they burn through all the challenges on sunday/monday and then drop warframe for the rest of the week. Nightwave is responsible for that.

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11 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

The problem is that they don't always show up: Sculptures have a chance of spawning on a given map, as opposed to being a guaranteed spawn. For some people, one in every three runs might yield a sculpture. For others, it could be one out of every five...or worse.

Totally agreed, I didn't see one at all last night but I'll usually get one a day on average.

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17 hours ago, Arc5in said:

Yeah, pretty sad to see the folks in here trying to argue that the people who don't like nightwave, or don't like some things about it are wrong, and that others should like it because they like it.

People who dislike this stuff, they are not lying, they are not wrong, and their opinions are entirely valid. How they claim to feel, in all likelihood really is how they actually feel, whether it makes sense to you or not. Instead of trying to point out how they are wrong, or how their opinion is wrong, or saying to stop playing warframe if they don't like it, or other such childish and pedantic responses, trying to find solutions which can please them while yet retaining the things you like about NW would be so much more productive.

Again, the majority of the disagreeing we've seen has not been centered around a difference in our opinions. If you say "yeah I don't enjoy doing this" that's always fine and 100% indisputable. 

However people are presenting things as facts, when they're simply not. For example on the previous page (page 85 at the time of writing) we have:

On 2019-04-11 at 6:03 AM, D1sTrust said:

Imo the big issue is the "10 weeks and then it`s over" format.

It adds pressure to play when you don`t really want to, it threatens you with missing out on things. Previously I logged in asking "what do I want to do today?", now I log in asking "what do I have to do?". Missing a week or two shouldn`t jeopardize a crazy 10 week-effort.

We need an estimated 60-65% of the standing from the challenges. That was mentioned at the start of the whole affair. Missing 2 weeks doesn't jeopardize the 10 week effort if we can complete the majority (again majority not all) of the challenges. 

Many of us are either done or nearly done with the first 300k standing to complete 30 tiers (as evident by the increase in complaints about the 15cred rewards after 31). There are weeks left on the clock. 

This also suggests that all the complaints about being forced to do every single challenge, are false. Many of us have, in fact skipped multiple challenges along the way. 

That pretty much covers two of your issues and proposed fixes, doesn't it? (I'm sorry I'm on Mobile and night mode theme so I can't really make out the bit about "just go play destiny" so I am just skipping that bit.) 

 

Your bit about Nora creds, I agree with. I also wish they'd rebalance the creds costs for stuff in her store.

A toggle for Nora is neither here nor there for me. 

The bit about "why not let them choose umbral forma from the start?" I disagree with. I don't mind choice, but I do understand that giving the donkey the carrot at the very beginning of the day and not rewarding the greater overall achievement in proportion to the amount of effort required is a recipe for disaster. Take a poll as to what the most sought-after rewards from the tiers was. I bet it's the umbral forma. That carrot belongs at the end of the ride. 

Edited by (PS4)guzmantt1977
Minor correction for page number.
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Ever since assassins became scalable, the wolf has become a massive bullet sponge.
He was already hard to deal with before this, but now he is a major pain in the ass to kill whether you have good weapons or not.
In invasion defence missions you shouldn't even try as the waves just move on as normal, thus the mission ends before you'd manage to halve his health let alone kill him.

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Since my friend is new to the game (Just reached Doer on Fortuna, thanks to my urging, but unranked on Cetus, for instance) he has missed many elite challenges, and hasn't had time or access to others. He's not even going to reach 50% - (nowhere near the 60% people love to say you only need to get for the mid-rank of 30), I estimate (his next rank will be the first Kuva bundle, that he'll reach this week.)

He's missing a LOT of challenges.

My roommate barely gets up to 10hrs a WEEK to play (many times less, and almost exclusively at hours that I cannot play with him, as I work 2 jobs) sometimes we can play a couple hours a week together. He works full time and is going to college. He LOVES Warframe almost too much (he already bought the Mesa Prime Access when starting out, and several PS4 bundles/plat packs, to the point that our finances are strained and I regret introducing him to the game.)

He min-max's frames more than I do, watching Youtube videos and such, whereas I wiki things and experiment with builds that cater to my unique play style (melee 95% of the time, guns rarely, very exploratory, but quick - so my builds focus more on utility and speed than raw power and survivability)

He is going to miss out on the Umbra Forma that would greatly help his builds, whereas I'll certainly get it, but have no good use for it. I highly doubt they'll be tradeable, but I'd still keep mine for a time when we can obtain a useful amount, later, in the New War & beyond.

Nightwave has been practically useless to him because he's making little progress, and barely any Wolf creds, despite all the chores he has done.

Nightwave is practically useless to me, since I have almost everything I'll ever need from the cred shop that I obtained in the Alerts previously, but Nightwave is missing nearly everything I cared to get from Alerts (rare resources mostly).

As I've said before, there's something seriously wrong with this picture, given the goals of the Nightwave system.
 

Missing a week or two (which is highly likely during finals for my friend, or just wanting to play another game to the exclusion of Warframe to take a break, for me,) in his case, would certainly mean missing out. There is no "make-up" mechanic in place here for his situation. It may not bother him that much right now, that he missed an Umbra Forma, since he doesn't realize the potential it has for his builds yet... but it's sorta out of his hands anyway, as he couldn't work toward it given his circumstances anyway. If I were him, I'd be resenting the Nightwave system, and it may hit him once he realizes this, later.

His attitude is to not care about Nightwave at all and just ignores it for the most part, since he knows he'll never get the good rewards from it.

My attitude toward Nightwave is to do as much as I can, grind out as many fugitives as I can, to get the rank 30 rewards, and then ignore Nightwave from that point on.

Hmm...

Ignore Nightwave if you can.... that's what I'm seeing.

Edited by (PS4)AyinDygra
Deleted the quote... it started out as a response, but changed my mind while writing.
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3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

We need an estimated 60-65% of the standing from the challenges. That was mentioned at the start of the whole affair. Missing 2 weeks doesn't jeopardize the 10 week effort if we can complete the majority (again majority not all) of the challenges. 

Many of us are either done or nearly done with the first 300k standing to complete 30 tiers (as evident by the increase in complaints about the 15cred rewards after 31). There are weeks left on the clock. 

This also suggests that all the complaints about being forced to do every single challenge, are false. Many of us have, in fact skipped multiple challenges along the way. 

That pretty much covers two of your issues and proposed fixes, doesn't it? (I'm sorry I'm on Mobile and night mode theme so I can't really make out the bit about "just go play destiny" so I am just skipping that bit.) 

None of this is new to me, so no, it doesn`t change anything.

Like Ayin already stated, the amount of time people can (or want) to invest in a game varies. Plus for less seasoned players some NW tasks either take more time or are just not doable at all.
Everyone under a certain threshold will feel pressured by this system. It`s inherently a race against a 10-week clock.
Just because the pro-driver in the Formula 1 car doesn`t even break a sweat in that race, doesn`t mean it`s fun for the rookie in a VW Beetle trying to keep up.
I have only been here for about three month, but afaik a system forcing it`s pace on the player is new for WF, and actually almost the opposite of it`s usual flow.

Tbh., personally I am not even crazy about the rewards since they are kinda ahead of my progression. But NW still manages to stress me out.

No clue what the "just go play destiny" line was aimed at, I for one don`t play it. 😉

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Page 86 so doubt it will get read and it is also positive feedback overall so will probably be ignored as well.  I just wanted to post from someone who really likes Nightwave.

Player Info:

-Around 1900hrs played

-400 days is today!

-MR27

-90% solo, 9% duo, 1% PUG

-Full-time office job/career so not a no-lifer gamer

-GF who is cool with my time spent gaming

-Rank 31 in Nightwave

 

1.  Nice homage to the old "The Warriors" movie; I think Nora captures this feel very well.

2.  Short/quick backstory of the Wolf is kinda cool.  This latest entry into the storyline and overall lore is decent.

3.  Guaranteed rewards!  Sometimes RNG can bite you in the a#$, it's nice to know there is good loot throughout the reward system.

4.  Rewards.  Pretty good mix for all types of players.  The Umbra Forma was a nice "carrot" to chase!

5.  Never felt the "grind" that many negative posts state.  Most of the challenges I was able to complete in basic gameplay doing random things (**I have completed ALL challenges to this point except this weeks sortie challenge that I'll knock out after work today.)

**Only challenge I kinda cringed at was the statue one because I really dislike the Drones in Arbitrations.  Rank 31 plus, maybe able to chose a reward of Wolf Creds or second optional reward (like rare mining gems as an example). Other than that, all good.

 

All-in-all, GREAT work DE!!  Props to everyone at the office and the devs who most likely put a TON of work and love into this.  (And to whomever had the idea of "The Warriors" influence...Steve?...I hate you for making me feel old!)  j/k

Edited by (XB1)Sumosan13
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57 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Since my friend is new to the game (Just reached Doer on Fortuna, thanks to my urging, but unranked on Cetus, for instance) he has missed many elite challenges, and hasn't had time or access to others. He's not even going to reach 50% - (nowhere near the 60% people love to say you only need to get for the mid-rank of 30), I estimate (his next rank will be the first Kuva bundle, that he'll reach this week.)

He's missing a LOT of challenges.

The umbral forma is not going to be usable by him until he gets to the end of the star chart. It is, by it's very nature extremely endgame specific. That's probably a part of why some of the elite rewards are tied to the "more endgame" content: sorties, tridolon, profit taker. 

57 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

My roommate barely gets up to 10hrs a WEEK to play (many times less, and almost exclusively at hours that I cannot play with him, as I work 2 jobs) sometimes we can play a couple hours a week together. He works full time and is going to college. He LOVES Warframe almost too much (he already bought the Mesa Prime Access when starting out, and several PS4 bundles/plat packs, to the point that our finances are strained and I regret introducing him to the game.)

Most of the challenges can be done by many of the experienced players in far less time than 10 hours/week, assuming that the player is capable of completing them at all. The number that was tossed around was about 3 hours I think. Many of the challenges synergise so that we can work on more than one at the same time. 

57 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

He min-max's frames more than I do, watching Youtube videos and such, whereas I wiki things and experiment with builds that cater to my unique play style (melee 95% of the time, guns rarely, very exploratory, but quick - so my builds focus more on utility and speed than raw power and survivability)

That may be holding him back in his non-nightwave progress. When we get too comfortable with a single loadout we stop gaining mastery. Unless he's already over MR 16 he may wish to reconsider. 

57 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

He is going to miss out on the Umbra Forma that would greatly help his builds, whereas I'll certainly get it, but have no good use for it. I highly doubt they'll be tradeable, but I'd still keep mine for a time when we can obtain a useful amount, later, in the New War & beyond.

Yes, and again it's really endgame specific. If he's struggling with the challenges, then you have to ask if that one forma that can be applied to only one slot will make the huge difference many people are hoping for. General consensus seems to agree with you that it may be better to hold on to the forma until there are more, as only a handful of frames can really benefit from the single one we'll have earned. 

57 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Nightwave has been practically useless to him because he's making little progress, and barely any Wolf creds, despite all the chores he has done.

Nightwave is practically useless to me, since I have almost everything I'll ever need from the cred shop that I obtained in the Alerts previously, but Nightwave is missing nearly everything I cared to get from Alerts (rare resources mostly).

The first one is something that I agree with you about, I really hope that they will rebalance the creds/costs to benefit the newbies. The second one, I feel you on, yes alerts were a valuable source of rare materials, and I hope to see them added in the future. 

57 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

As I've said before, there's something seriously wrong with this picture, given the goals of the Nightwave system.
 

Missing a week or two (which is highly likely during finals for my friend, or just wanting to play another game to the exclusion of Warframe to take a break, for me,) in his case, would certainly mean missing out. There is no "make-up" mechanic in place here for his situation. It may not bother him that much right now, that he missed an Umbra Forma, since he doesn't realize the potential it has for his builds yet... but it's sorta out of his hands anyway, as he couldn't work toward it given his circumstances anyway. If I were him, I'd be resenting the Nightwave system, and it may hit him once he realizes this, later.

You already said that he's not likely to be able to finish the tiers. Missing 2 weeks means that you still have access to the majority of the possible standing. At this point I believe that the first partial week isn't being counted in the 10 weeks. So out of the 10+1partial you're probably looking at close to 9 weeks worth of standing, of which you need about 7 to hit maximum tier if you are able to do all challenges. 

If you aren't able to do all, the question becomes, would you be have been able to do enough in the first place? 

57 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

His attitude is to not care about Nightwave at all and just ignores it for the most part, since he knows he'll never get the good rewards from it.

My attitude toward Nightwave is to do as much as I can, grind out as many fugitives as I can, to get the rank 30 rewards, and then ignore Nightwave from that point on.

His attitude makes sense, as this system is likely to be repeated in the near future. He may be in a position to do better going forward. 

Your attitude also makes sense, so long as you aren't burning yourself out. 

My personal attitude has been do what I can, skip what I really don't want to do and try to make up for it with other challenges. When I get done, I try to assist others, say by taking them fishing with my bait, doing extra bounties, or by going on runs to the silver grove for those who are short on apothics. I've been looking at recruiting chat a fair bit for people who need the assistance. I count them as farming runs and that helps remind me that I am benefitting as well as helping others. 

57 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Hmm...

Ignore Nightwave if you can.... that's what I'm seeing.

Like I said, my take has been, help each other if we can. That way the people who can't do it on their own, can realise that there are people who are willing to help. 

If your buddy needs a hand they can try to see if I'm online and I'll try to give them some assistance if I'm able to. 

45 minutes ago, D1sTrust said:

None of this is new to me, so no, it doesn`t change anything.

Like Ayin already stated, the amount of time people can (or want) to invest in a game varies. Plus for less seasoned players some NW tasks either take more time or are just not doable at all.
Everyone under a certain threshold will feel pressured by this system. It`s inherently a race against a 10-week clock.
Just because the pro-driver in the Formula 1 car doesn`t even break a sweat in that race, doesn`t mean it`s fun for the rookie in a VW Beetle trying to keep up.
I have only been here for about three month, but afaik a system forcing it`s pace on the player is new for WF, and actually almost the opposite of it`s usual flow.

Tbh., personally I am not even crazy about the rewards since they are kinda ahead of my progression. But NW still manages to stress me out.

No clue what the "just go play destiny" line was aimed at, I for one don`t play it. 😉

Oh yeah, I just used your post as an example of someone claiming that missing 2 out of the 10 weeks is what will jeopardize the whole affair. 

When you say "weaker players may not be able to complete 300k standing at all" it's a totally different issue. At that point, as in Ayin's example, the issue is that the weaker player is probably not going to be able to advance to tier 30 at all. That's not a huge surprise, because if we count it as 10 weeks, the last two tiers require the standing from about 4 Elite challenges. While I sympathise with them, I don't see much of a way to change it without simply saying "participation awards for everyone yay!". 

I do wish that the creds/cost system gets an overhaul to benefit them though. 

Really though, the claims about forced pace are a bit much. Alerts were random timed events that would happen throughout the day, on specific missions on specific planets, and you had to get most of them done against the clock or you were out of luck. That's the definition of being forced to do something if you want the rewards. The difference is that most veterans will usually admit that they skipped the vast majority of them anyway as they weren't interested in the rewards. Right now what we have in Nightwave is also an event that they do want the rewards for, so some people seem to find themselves complying and resenting having to actually put in an effort to play the game. 

The bit about destiny, I dunno what it's about either, as it's too hard to read in the colour and font size they used. It's in the other person's post. 

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Tier 16 at mr 8 . I havent even bothered with the dailies.i used 4 forma yesterday to boost up khora build had the forma last week but iwanted to do a few sorties and other stuff with current build..all those challenges were easily done if iwanted to . Just didnt have any interest. 

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I do not accept the premise for this "I am entitled to reach lvl 30 of Nightwave, so now I am pissed because it takes too much time/is hard/etc. and thus I get stressed out"-attitude that runs currently runs rampant. It's sibling assumption might be even worse, this "I feel that I am entitled to do ALL the challenges, and now I am very upset because they include missions I do not like".

If you have a real life that is more important than Warframe, that is completely FINE. Partners, kids, school, work, friends, there are a lot of things that really and truly are more important than Warframe, and that IS fine. If you have just started and it is hard to do all challenges, that is also FINE, that is just how it is ("fight on, Tenno"). If you only like certain parts of the game, and thus do not want to do some missions, guess what, that is also FINE. Even having no friends or clan members, and not even wanting any, that is also completely FINE.

But what is borderline insane (or at least an expression of intense mental vacuity) is the assumption that a game developer should take all this into account and then change the game so you can achieve "everything" you want without having to put in more time, do missions you don't like, grind the starmap & get better gear, get some friends, join a clan or whatever.

Where does this assumption come from, the idea that Warframe should be designed and changed just for you? Or for "me, me, me", to look at it from the other side. Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and their feelings even. Because this sure seems to have a lot to do with "feelings". And having feelings is fine too, actually.

But while it is ok to have feelings about Nightwave (as much as you like), this "I am entitled..."-premise is completely, utterly and totally ridiculous!

It is also irrational and outright stupid. A game that allows all players to easily max everything they like, so that they will feel good, successful and capable, does that sound like a game anyone (who is not an egotistical idiot) would actually like to play? [the answer is "no"]

Or like a game that will continue to interest gamers for another six years?  [the answer is still "no"]

There are lots of intelligent, insightful, rational and critical comments as well as improvements suggestions concerning Nightwave (not surprising, since a lot of Tenno really care about Warframe). But what has kind of surprised me is the amount of these "it is all about me"-comments. Actually, it finally even pissed me off...

Edited by Graavarg
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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The bit about destiny, I dunno what it's about either, as it's too hard to read in the colour and font size they used. It's in the other person's post. 

Oh, nevermind then. 😉 I thought it was directed at me since you wrote it after quoting me.

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Oh yeah, I just used your post as an example of someone claiming that missing 2 out of the 10 weeks is what will jeopardize the whole affair. 

For any player under a certain threshold of average time investment per week, it does.
You are right, there is a group of players who either spend so little time or simply are too new, they just shouldn`t bother. The whole event isn`t for them.
But there is also a pretty big group in the zone between them and dedicated seasoned players. This is the group who are not really happy, because they can`t go at their own pace.

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I don't see much of a way to change it without simply saying "participation awards for everyone yay!".

Plenty of suggestions in this thread, mine included (change to an endless loop event, rewards on a weekly base depending on the weekly difficulty).

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Really though, the claims about forced pace are a bit much. Alerts were random timed events that would happen throughout the day, on specific missions on specific planets, and you had to get most of them done against the clock or you were out of luck.

Come on, you have to see the difference between random event pop-ups, with a time investment of 20 minutes max per event/reward, and a 10-week event dangling a carrot-on-a-stick in front of you.

 

Don`t get me wrong, I am not saying Nightwave is bad, the core idea is actually pretty good imo. But I think it needs some substantial changes in order to not alienate a seemingly huge group of players.
 

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1 hour ago, D1sTrust said:

Plenty of suggestions in this thread, mine included (change to an endless loop event, rewards on a weekly base depending on the weekly difficulty).

Unfortunately the problem is that no event is never-ending. And for good reason. Take a look at the most recent complaints.. "15 creds".... That's why we need the event to end at some point, and begin again. The game needs to cater to everyone, not just the newbs, as they won't be newbs forever. 

The fact is that alerts had the same issue. For newbs, they were on far off planets, with enemies that were too hard to beat, and game modes that they didn't know how to do. They had to beg for a taxi and often needed someone to carry them. But everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten about those issues which are definitely alleviated in Nightwave, where we can pick to do most of the challenges on the starter planets if we need to. 

1 hour ago, D1sTrust said:

Come on, you have to see the difference between random event pop-ups, with a time investment of 20 minutes max per event/reward, and a 10-week event dangling a carrot-on-a-stick in front of you.

Yes. The 10 week event has a reward that most of us want. Even I used to ignore the alerts long before I had made it 1 year into the game. How many do you think the real vets did? 

Along the way we're going to collect creds that give us the the equivalent of quite a few alerts of our choice. Again I'd like that to translate to a lot more of the cruft that newbs would benefit from, but I recognise that something like umbral forma is not your typical "alert reward". 

1 hour ago, D1sTrust said:

Don`t get me wrong, I am not saying Nightwave is bad, the core idea is actually pretty good imo. But I think it needs some substantial changes in order to not alienate a seemingly huge group of players.

I can agree with this part wholeheartedly. 

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Had a good time doing nightwave, but I wish there were more challenging elite challenges, something that actually makes you think outside of the box instead of the usual do x sorties or x other slightly harder missions.

Besides that I honestly think that not making Wolf operate like Stalker Acolytes was a mistake. He almost never spawns for people that enjoy and want to fight him more often and reading how rest of the community struggle with him is kinda sad. If he had official place of operations like every day a different planet with MUCH higher chances of spawn (similar to Stalker acolytes) that would also override syndicates and other assassins it could make some players actively seek the encounter, while players that can't deal with him had easier times evading him. Overall it would result in less frustration. Hopefully something like that will be implemented into existing/future assassins if they are ever going to be reworked/buffed.

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48 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The fact is that alerts had the same issue. For newbs, they were on far off planets, with enemies that were too hard to beat, and game modes that they didn't know how to do.

Just speaking for myself, this was never an issue to me because alerts had a defined audience. If an alert on Eris came up while my max progression was Jupiter, I knew I was not the audience.

56 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Unfortunately the problem is that no event is never-ending.

Well, alerts were kinda never ending, except they got ended. 😉

Anyway, let me try to draft an "endless" Nighwave loop.

For the sake of the example, lets keep the shop as it is now (cosmetics, changing set of mods).
Lets also keep the system of daily and weekly challenges.
Dish out wolf credits based on how much of the weekly total a player does, e.g. 5 creds for 25%, 10 creds for 50%, 15 creds for 75%.
  So far that`s something that can loop forever, is useful to new-ish players, and not bad for seasoned players.

Have one "master elite" challenge per week which gives one of the current ranked-rewards.
The more desireable/high end the reward, the tougher the challenge.
One week it`d be a moderate challenge giving Forma, another week it`d be really brutal (out of reach for a player like me) giving something like the Umbra Forma.
Wolf cred bundles and the super useless stuff excluded, this would make for about 15 weeks of rewards, at which point it loops back to where it started.

This way the high end rewards would have seasoned players as a defined audience, and could actually offer a real challenge.
Sure, some weeks would be less interesting for veterans in terms of rewards, but that`s no different from what we have now.
The old "I missed the alarm" issue would still be mitigated by having a full week for the main reward.

Well, something like that 😉

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5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The umbral forma is not going to be usable by him until he gets to the end of the star chart. It is, by it's very nature extremely endgame specific.

(He's got Excalibur Umbra, and uses the Umbra mods on other frames... just starting to use Forma to min-max and squeeze in as much as he can... I don't think it'll be too long before he realizes what he's being deprived of.) We're both very good gamers, and it didn't take him long to get that far (2 months, maybe). He ran a clan in Destiny1 that ran raids every week and taught others how to play them the most efficient way possible.

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Most of the challenges can be done by many of the experienced players in far less time than 10 hours/week, assuming that the player is capable of completing them at all. The number that was tossed around was about 3 hours I think. Many of the challenges synergise so that we can work on more than one at the same time. 

And this is mainly why he's ignoring most of what he CAN do in Nightwave. He's got his own goals, and Nightwave would drastically cut into his time. (they may be fast for more experienced players) Even 3hrs though, is too much on his timetable, even on my timetable (I'm skipping sleep, staying up til midnight, skipping other entertainment, other games I would rather be playing at the moment, etc This is in no way a shining victory for the feature... it's building resentment for something I'd otherwise enjoy - if their stated goal in several interviews, is to build long lasting relationships with players who will pay over time because they enjoy the game... yeah, that's not happening here.)

Even though I COULD complete all the challenges, (even the "with friend" ones, IF the week's schedule aligns), there are chores in there that I don't want to be forced to do. And I certainly don't want to cram them all into the 3 (well, realistically, much more than 3, because I play "casually" most of the time) hours I could be using to accomplish my personal real goals that would make me happy. This week, all I have left are 3/8 (5 more) rare mods to find, use 3 forma (won't be happening), 5 sorties (won't be happening), and 3/10 relics (will be done). The Ayatan treasure act bugged on me on Sunday, marked as done, but got no points for it.

(hint about what doesn't make me happy: Being forced to use forma at their command doesn't make me happy - I plan carefully for each and every use of it, and I don't waste it frivilously - playing the first year solo, I built my own dojo room by room, forma by forma, and I'm pretty happy with the warframe and weapon setups that I have... not to mention the big bad wolf likes interrupting my play now, killing my newly forma'd warframes or dismissing the plink damage done by newly forma'd weapons - I'd rather not be using Forma for the duration of the Wolf's existence.) That's just one of the current "Acts" that I'd rather not do.

 

My main point was that there are people who won't get even close to the 60% mark, and missing just 2 weeks is a MASSIVE hit to their potential nightwave standing, especially when they can't even do all the acts each week when they ARE available to play. There is no wiggle room for them.

3 hours ago, Graavarg said:

I do not accept the premise for this "I am entitled to reach lvl 30 of Nightwave, so now I am pissed because it takes too much time/is hard/etc. and thus I get stressed out"-attitude that runs currently runs rampant.

Rank 30 is mid-rank for the event. Rank 30+ are "Prestige" ranks that we're not expected to get. They estimated (and players have math'd) doing over half of the chores are needed to only reach the midpoint of the event EVERY WEEK. People are expected to reach 30ish, with the hardcore getting prestige above that.

Tying this in with the main and previous points:
If you don't get at least 60% on any given week (like missing 2 weeks), you have to make that up with Fugitive captures or doing Elite Weeklies the remaining weeks, going well beyond the "60%" in those weeks. And if the whole issue was a time crunch BEFORE, now it's simply an exercise in futility.

You can't just skip everything you "don't like" doing, because you don't know what will prevent you from doing acts that you "do like" later in the event, when non-game life gets in the way, or you'd rather play the game how you like playing, accomplishing your own goals, and making progress toward what will make you happy, rather than filling in a checklist of chores that some RNG spit out.

(This all assumes one wants the rank 25,28,29,30 rewards, which are the only ones that really stuck out as "worth getting" and seemed out of reach to me, AND you don't care about wolf-cred ... but newbies and everyone without the important aura mods, or people who need Reactors/Catalysts, or need Nitain, NEED that wolf cred, so they'll NEED to enter the Prestige ranks for a pitiful 15 creds per 10,000 standing - and that was the stuff we got from Alerts, and that's what Nightwave is supposed to make easier to get (ahem *work for over time on their own time table, except that they expire and the shop's inventory rotates* ahem) for those with jobs and limited time to play... yeah, big fail on that goal... a point most of us agree on, that the system should front-load wolfcred in the reward table, rather than glyphs/etc)

I don't see entitlement here... I see people critiquing the Nightwave system failing to meet its expressed design goals.

 

Edited by (PS4)AyinDygra
o was an e
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