Jump to content
[DE]Bear

Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, TheFBD said:

That was true until nightwave launched. The moment it went live, those priced dropped to half of that. And they are still dropping as more and more people get that reward.

At the same time aura mod prices doubled.

Cool, then once they drop to about 20 plat each I'll rank up my Arcane Energize.

  • Satisfied 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

Wow.

The goals change in every text box, so that you can argue that what DE has made is absolutely flawless.  Following that, everybody else is an idiot because they don't think that their time should be valued, and following that an inconsistent view of what a new player could achieve.  I applaud your SJW levels of ability to bend and contort to make your world view work.

Not even close. In our interaction my claim has consistently been that "if we are asked to spend 6 forma and are given 6 forma, there is no net loss for us". That statement should be immediately self obvious to anyone who is not trying to twist things to suit their needs, but you've repeatedly refused to accept the fact. 

You've tried to make it about buying coffee, or tried to tally standing, or claim that you don't care for the other rewards. If you want to see goal posts shifting, you need to look at your own posts. 

Quote

Riddle me this.  10 weeks.  1 Catalyst, 2 weapon slots, 1 frame slot, 6 forma, 3 mods, 40,000 kuva, 1 base level arcane, and 1 umbral forma.  To get all possible points, the 6 forma are not rewarded, but stepping stones to leveling things up.  To get the rewards you'd need to have a good amp, to hunt and Eidolon. You'd need Old Mate with Solaris United.  You'd need access to sorties.  Once you've got all of this, you are "rewarded" with the potential to earn a potato every 5 prestige levels.  Buying just the new cosmetics, you're left with less Wolf credits than to buy a single potato.

Nonsense again. To get all of the rewards you do not need to meet either of those conditions. Both the tridolon-hunting and the profit taker were elite missions. Players can, in 10 regular weeks get to tier 30, having done only 4 elite missions. If we have 10 weeks plus the first partial week, players don't need any of the elite weeklies. 

Your 'riddle' is therefore invalidated. 

Quote

Tell me the goal.  Your fabled "freshly minted" newbie can't do a good chunk of the challenges.  Your veteran hangs around for the Umbral forma.  Everyone suddenly has Nitain behind a cosmetics wall, no way to get a bundle of Kavat gene codes, no source for Tellurium but the grind, and has lost a reason to watch for events popping up.  Login is the only real update. 

100% correct. However a freshly minted newbie can complete quite a few challenges. The cosmetics that the newb earns are again, incedental, just as they are for the veteran, if the newb needs nitain then the important reward is the creds. I've said repeatedly that I do hope that they rebalance the creds/prices to benefit the newbs, and that I'm ok with them increasing the price of the (normally paid) offerings that vets are looking for. 

Quote

Putting this into an example, because you seem to miss it, 162 units of Nitain are required to build everything in-game now.  Each unit of Nitain requires 3 credits, and has a minimum buy divisible by 5.  165/5 = 33 units.  33 units at 15 credits per unit is 496 wolf credits.  You get 250 for the 1-30 progression.  That means you'll need an additional 246 credits to buy everything, and at 15 credits a rank that'll be 50 additional ranks.  That's absurd, right.  If the "next" Nightwave is the same you could get it from ranks 1-30 again, but we're back to no Vauban, cosmetics, or skins.  Most important if you're new, no aura mods.  You might as well pack it in.

Oh the amount of nitain to build everything in game is accurate. However your argument suggests that every new player needs to, or should build everything in game at once. That's just not the case at all. Also as I said above (and repeatedly throughout the thread) I personally hope that the creda/prices of many items in the store get adjusted to favour the newbs so that they can get more stuff faster. 

Quote

Alternatively, allow for 6 Nitain a week on the old system (a potential of 28, but guessing on the way low side).  10 weeks would get you 60, aura mods, other resources, and cosmetics.  You can't argue that the new system offers less rewards, and that this minimized amount only benefits veterans.  I already have 200+ Nitain in inventory and a bucket full of aura mods, so I don't have to care that a new player literally can't access aura mods until they've ground through the Nightwave and made the decision that cosmetic and power items are literally being dangled in-front of their faces without a means to earn them.  Personally, this reeks of trying to drive real money purchases, but I cannot justify this beyond a shadow of doubt.

I'm sorry if you don't care about the new players. I'm considering buying some of the mods that I don't need so I can give them to a newb and help alleviate the problem. Sort of like how I give away syndicate augments, and stances. I sort of hope that others will be considering doing it as well. It won't remove the problem totally, but it is a step that we can take as players to assist others. 

Quote

On the other hand, go ahead.  I understand selfish motivations, and being blinded by slightly shinier shinies.  Slots are new...and at this rate it'd only take 1770 weeks to fill out the 358 weapons currently in inventory.  That's assuming DE doesn't add any more for the next 34 years.  Likewise the Umbral Forma is great...and at the rate of about 5 per year we'll be able to apply 1 to each frame after about 400 weeks (a more manageable 8 years).

Again while your numbers are fine, they're based on very false assumptions. The slots are an event reward, which while always welcome are unusual. It's not to expected that people will try to claim free slots as their only source. We're also both aware that many people choose to discard many of the weapons and even the frames after mastery especially if a prime alternative is available. 

Slots have always been primarily purchased for plat. Pretending that this event is the only way to get them, is disingenuous at the very least. It's not even true that they're the only free slots most of us have gotten since the event started, is it? But insisting that we can wait for the annual give away for the free slots and progress using only those would be ridiculous. 

Likewise umbral forma is a huge lure for many of us, and many of us would be in our glee with an unlimited source, but realistically they're not anything near being a necessity in this game. Claiming that they're part of a cash grab when they're not on sale, doesn't really work. 

Quote

My problem is people somehow don't seem to extrapolate the future from what is being shown.  Let me fill in the blanks.  Nightwave is a test of the waters, to offload much of the work onto the art department and to push sales of the game enhancing things.  It's doing this by primarily awarding cosmetics, pushing addictive behaviors (read: highlighting things to buy and dangling a false possibility of earning them through gameplay), and most importantly wasting an opportunity.

See above. 

Quote

You'd think DE would have learned with the guides program.  Apparently not, so let me offer a tip.  If you don't support things, they will die.  An attached wiki doesn't support miles of dependent farming, and people need help.  Getting people in-game to do it is fantastic if they're trust worthy, but it only takes a few to screw it up.  Instead of throwing Nightwave in to supplant what was dated but working, think it through and integrate it. 

100 percent true, but totally unrelated to nightwave. 

Quote

Case in point, the Nightwave can be used to introduce new players to relics.  There's be two weeklies, one rewarding 2000 and one rewarding 3000.  The first for 5 cracked relics, and the second for 10 relics (total point gain stays at 5000, but the tiers offer progression).  Your next step is to reward 5 items being crafted, for 5000 points.  This would be the next step on the weeklies, pushing new players to associate relic cracking with building.  Finally, have a weekly which offer 5000 more points to craft any Prime item.  This steps new players through relic cracking and prime assembly.  The following week introduce PoE or Fortuna, with the same structure but zaws and kitguns.  This is grind for veterans, but will offer new players an actual set of instructions that don't have to be gleaned by figuring out what relay unlocks require.

I don't have a problem with it, but as I indicated before, you provided an argument that shows that opening 10 relics is unlikely to provide the vast majority of players with a complete set using quite a bit of math that appeared reasonable at first glance. The argument you raised is far more applicable to the suggestion that you are making here. 

Quote

What about Veterans?  Reintroduce a weekly with no points earned.  Call it a boss rush, and make it three random assassination targets beefed up to level 80.  Have the reward be a choice of the weapon mods.  It's recycled content, it offers a difficulty that new players might find challenging (read: push new and old players to interact and return to old parts of the game), and the mod reward would give people a reason to come back (because the other rewards not chosen would drive a return weekly).  To keep it going, shuffle in rivens to allow for an ongoing fight between the desire to earn a known mod and to get a potentially amazing riven.  

So... More or less 3 Sorties a week? But without the standing reward? In return for one of the stances/augment/rivens? Wouldn't the level 80 actually exclude the newbs that you were claiming are harmed by the current system, without really rewarding the vets? And if you do mean give them a riven, wouldn't giving everyone tee same riven run counter to the point of the riven system? 

Look, the MR 6 and 8 newbs that I ran into most recently were in Ophelia trying to farm tellurium. A part of why I gave them some augments/stances is because they were super stoked about surviving 30 minutes, a new personal record, one said. He was saying how badly he wants to level up his syndicate and get the augment for Hydroid to make farming better, and how they needed to find a Nekros to do a run with them. I jumped on the mic and said that I was already running Nekros and would just give him the mod if he wanted, and that we could do another run after. I showed them how people normally do those farming runs and convinced them to not extract at 35 mins but to go for 40 to complete the rotation. I explained the AABC drop sequence they managed to get some mods, gear levelled, a crapload of resources and their first 40 minute survivals. We only got a couple of tellurium though, but that met their immediate needs. 

Point is, if they're barely able to make it on a mission that starts below level 30, a level 80 assassination target, with the damage invulnerability sequences and special weak points, is going to be a bit more challenging than you might realise. You want them to do it three times a week? 

Quote

Dismiss the above, because there's no doubt you will.  You're welcome to believe this is great, but in 20 weeks don't suggest anything is awry.  Me, I know DE's history.  I know they are humans, they make mistakes, and need non-sycophants to tell them when they've made an error.  Two words should make this clear, "Universal Vacuum."  As such, I'm giving DE my opinion, and you're welcome to give yours.  Just remember empathy, and try starting someone on a new account.  When they look at you perplexed, and after the first mission ask you what the heck do they do now, start by running through all of the resources.  Then run through the mission types (or show them the descriptions obfuscated in the information panel on the Orbiter).  Follow that up with planetary progress, the lore that they missed because they weren't around (looking at you tube-men and Alad V), and the mission selection that only allows one at a time.  After all that, explain the syndicates, Darvo, Baro, and Maroo.  Then explain the Relay debris, because they weren't around for Eyes of Blight.  Then....you know what, I think the point is clear.  DE has not done a lot to ease players towards the story.  It gets lost under the huge list of guns....about 10% of which are distinctly useful, but there is no visual indication that the Tigris series is a sniper shotgun, snipers are generally trash because you're running through hallways, modding can make a trash weapon quite good....another rabbit hole there.

Yes that's quite a rabbit hole that you're trying to squeeze us both down.

First by deciding that I'd dismiss your suggestion out of hand. I might not agree with you out of hand, and it's possible that if you elaborate on it some more I might come around. But what you said is either too similar to what we already have (and people have complained about having to do) or just something that I can't conceptualize based on the little you've said so far. 

Second by deciding that disagreeing means that I lack empathy. I empathise strongly with the newbs, and have repeatedly said I hope that the creds/costs system gets rebalanced. But I don't sympathise as much with people who have repeatedly asked to pay2win, or those admit that they skipped the vast majority of the alerts anyway and that they are interested in the very generous free rewards that are usually for-pay, despite the fact that they are already highly advanced in the game, or even for those who chose to burn themselves out on this event, when every single indication that we have indicated that a more relaxed pace would not be penalized. 

Third by once again using things that are not related in any way to nightwave. 

Quote

Sufficed to say, DE needs to use the tools they have to lead players in.  Nightwave is that opportunity, but if it's just a less rewarding alert system then it's DOA.  Maybe if we're clear on the problems, they'll get it too.  Maybe sometimes looking at the fingernails of an 800 pound gorilla makes it difficult to understand the 800 pound gorilla in the room.  What do I know though?  I'm just a scrub that can't understand why this is amazing and that just because a reward is immediately burned through it doesn't make it any less of a reward.

Again, perhaps it's because you're trying to focus on the gorilla's nails, instead of the whole? You were asked to spend 6 forma. You were given 6 forma. Along the way you probably beefed up some weapons or frames, you probably got either forma bps or prime parts that can be converted into plat with which you could buy even more forma, you probably also got even more resources (some possibly rare) which may be useful, you would have picked up mods which can be sold or converted to endo.... 

And best of all, you got all of those things for doing things that many players would probably have done anyway. 

But all you can see is that you got 6 forma and were asked to spend 6 forma? That's incredibly myopic. 

 

You did present some ideas that may be useful if you expanded them, but that's not the same as saying that they negate what we've gotten with nightwave. 

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2
  • Woah 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Not even close. In our interaction my claim has consistently been that "if we are asked to spend 6 forma and are given 6 forma, there is no net loss for us". That statement should be immediately self obvious to anyone who is not trying to twist things to suit their needs, but you've repeatedly refused to accept the fact. 

You've tried to make it about buying coffee, or tried to tally standing, or claim that you don't care for the other rewards. If you want to see goal posts shifting, you need to look at your own posts. 

But given that those are the rewards for attaining levels it does work out as a net loss because you end up not actually having any rewards from those levels.
 

The Forma/Gild/Ayatan tasks are inherently bad. Last time I did them I had things I was working on, this time I have nothing I am working on so I will skip it because it is terrible.
 

And because the 15 wolf creds per prestige level, just isn't an incentive to rush anything.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

But given that those are the rewards for attaining levels it does work out as a net loss because you end up not actually having any rewards from those levels.
 

The Forma/Gild/Ayatan tasks are inherently bad. Last time I did them I had things I was working on, this time I have nothing I am working on so I will skip it because it is terrible.
 

And because the 15 wolf creds per prestige level, just isn't an incentive to rush anything.

Not true. Apart from the fact that not being rewarded ≠ a loss/punishment, there's the plain fact that we were rewarded as we went along. 

You spent 6 forma, gained 6 forma, probably gained multiple forma bps, and prime parts that can be traded for forma, ducats, other in game items. You also have one or more items of gear that probably benefitted from the application of forma. You also would have gotten multiple relics that can be opened for more rewards.

Those are all rewards that we would have picked up along the way. 

Other than that, I strongly support your decision to skip any challenge that doesn't meet your personal cost/benefit requirements, and personally agree with you on the 15 creds not being a major enticement under the current creds:cost system. But free is still free and while I will not be likely to actively pursue the prestige ranks, I'll happily take whatever I can get based on my own costs/benefit requirements. 

Turns out that that there are a few helmets that I never got under the old system. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Not true. Apart from the fact that not being rewarded ≠ a loss/punishment, there's the plain fact that we were rewarded as we went along. 

You spent 6 forma, gained 6 forma, probably gained multiple forma bps, and prime parts that can be traded for forma, ducats, other in game items. You also have one or more items of gear that probably benefitted from the application of forma. You also would have gotten multiple relics that can be opened for more rewards.

Those are all rewards that we would have picked up along the way. 

Other than that, I strongly support your decision to skip any challenge that doesn't meet your personal cost/benefit requirements, and personally agree with you on the 15 creds not being a major enticement under the current creds:cost system. But free is still free and while I will not be likely to actively pursue the prestige ranks, I'll happily take whatever I can get based on my own costs/benefit requirements. 

Turns out that that there are a few helmets that I never got under the old system. 

Relics, and Forma BP's I would've gotten irrelevant of the tasks.

if I am given 3 forma and then am asked to use those three forma on a task to give me standing to rank up, even though I have nothing I want to forma. Then it is a loss if I choose to do it. I won't be. So it is also a loss in that I lose those 3k standing I could've gotten if it was not a bad task.

  • Like 3
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Relics, and Forma BP's I would've gotten irrelevant of the tasks.

if I am given 3 forma and then am asked to use those three forma on a task to give me standing to rank up, even though I have nothing I want to forma. Then it is a loss if I choose to do it. I won't be. So it is also a loss in that I lose those 3k standing I could've gotten if it was not a bad task.

Again I disagree. 

You have nothing that you wish to add forma to, so yes, for you, at this time, there's no significant benefit to doing the challenge. Not doing the challenge and not earning the reward for doing so is a sensible choice for you to make. The system already allowed for us to skip many challenges for whatever reason. Skipping that challenge is unlikely to lock you out of the 30th tier. The 3k standing that you would earn translates to approximately 5 creds in the grand scheme of things, based on your current position in the ladder. 

You've chosen not to try to take those 5 cred worth of standing. That is called opportunity cost and is fundamentally different from losing out. 

Also, based on your position in the ladder, it means that you will have gained 6 forma after spending 3 forma. Congratulations, you are one of the few people who have managed to trade 3k standing for 3 forma. You're winning. 😉

  • Woah 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Again I disagree. 

You have nothing that you wish to add forma to, so yes, for you, at this time, there's no significant benefit to doing the challenge. Not doing the challenge and not earning the reward for doing so is a sensible choice for you to make. The system already allowed for us to skip many challenges for whatever reason. Skipping that challenge is unlikely to lock you out of the 30th tier. The 3k standing that you would earn translates to approximately 5 creds in the grand scheme of things, based on your current position in the ladder. 

You've chosen not to try to take those 5 cred worth of standing. That is called opportunity cost and is fundamentally different from losing out. 

Also, based on your position in the ladder, it means that you will have gained 6 forma after spending 3 forma. Congratulations, you are one of the few people who have managed to trade 3k standing for 3 forma. You're winning. 😉

And then when I eventually prestige and I miss out on 15 wolf credits because I missed that challenge. it is a loss. It is a horribly bad task to do for standing.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

And then when I eventually prestige and I miss out on 15 wolf credits because I missed that challenge. it is a loss. It is a horribly bad task to do for standing.

The same is true for all of the convicts you never caught that you possibly could have. The distinction between this and say profit taker is that you can choose to build and forma a weapon. Many people just couldn't possibly get to the required point to do PT. Likewise, it's unlikely that most people will be able to get to Sorties if they're not at that point yet. Same for the Hydrolyst. 

We should all be able to do the Forma challenge, but I agree that for some of us, doing it makes little sense. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I don't know if you are still taking suggestions for Nightwave but I have a few suggestions. 

The biggest complaint I've seen about the rewards, at least from my clan mates, is that they feel it takes to long to get wolf creds and they don't feel rewarded for completing challenges. 

My first suggestion is to simply give Wolf Creds every rank instead of every couple ranks. So in addition to whatever reward you normally would receive at a certain rank, you also gain 15 cred in addition. You could even keep the wolf credits as their own tier reward, but just reward more of them.

Another suggestion I have is for giving a bonus for completing all weekly challenges. Like say letting people pick a free catalyst or reactor. That would also make people feel better about going out of their way to complete the different challenges and they would instantly feel rewarded.

Most of the challenges are fine except for a few. Using three forma can be a little much especially if you have nothing you want to level. Or you are saving your forma to make weapons.

The ayatan treasure challenge should probably just be removed. It only punishes new players since they can't easily get treasures till they unlock sorties and even then it's heavily rng based. As a max MR player the challenge is almost pointless since I just have a huge stockpile of treasures saved up and complete the challenge instantly. 

The friend/clan mate challenges could be improved by allowing them to be completed solo but just make them complete faster with a friend/clan mate. (Ex: Complete 3 sabotages or 1 sabotage with a friend.)

That's all I could think of atm. Love the system overall. Gives me something to look forward to every week and keeps me playing the game I enjoy. 

Edited by (PS4)Dethfuse
Grammar, and restructuring to make more coherent
  • Like 2
  • Applause 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Alerts Vs Nightwave

To me, the beauty of Alerts was: you could take them or leave them, for the most part.

If you were online when something good came up, bonus, something fun to run and do. (I passed on plenty of alerts in mission types I didn't like, because I knew if I was patient, it would come around again in a mission I wanted to do.)

I did tons of Alerts, mostly for resources. Sure you could farm them, but the nice big chunks for a single quick mission made them very useful. Early on, as a newbie, I did even more alerts. I especially relied on them for credits (I don't care if there were and are more efficient ways of getting credits.) Nitain was a more "mid-game" resource that I started looking at months after I started playing and equipment started needing it for building. (yes, casual progression there, if you think i should have needed it long before months had passed) And by that time, I had stockpiled plenty of Nitain from running one or two of those alerts a day (some days 0, of course).

The only real flaw in the Alert system was how brief the window of opportunity was for the missions. If they lasted 12hrs at a time (instead of 20-40min), then it wouldn't really matter much WHEN they appeared, just that they finally did, and you find time to do the one mission they require - either when you wake up or get home from work, whatever works for you. They may need better organization of the Alerts tab for this, since it would fill up with alerts... maybe not all alerts would get the super long extension - but 6hr minimum, for weapon & warframe blueprints/reactors/Nitain/rare resources  IMO - credits and common resources could keep the old short windows)

I want alerts back, if not for me, for the newbies, who really need what it offered.

I'd really like both systems kept, so people could either wait patiently for the Alerts, or progressively work toward certain rewards in the Nightwave shop (With Changes: a system that doesn't reset every 10 weeks forcing you to take part in it on its time table, and spend your rewards by the end or lose out, of course - Look at the design goal: Progressively, slowly, working toward a goal at your own pace... not spending all your free time completing a list of chores in the hopes that you'll get enough progress accomplished before all your effort is deleted. People with more time to spare obviously have less to complain about in the current setup, and people who already do the things the acts ask us to do are not disturbed by having to do what they're already doing... but look at it from the other side of the coin.)

~~~~~~

The Nightwave system is fundamentally flawed as a replacement for Alerts, because it's the people it was supposed to be helping (not much time to play, at work/school/college when alerts popped up) now have to spend a relatively large chunk of their free time every single week for 10 weeks, doing missions and such that they could have skipped alert-wise, but, now, are required chores to fill a gauge of minimum activity that doesn't count whatever activity you wanted to be doing instead.

I work 2 jobs. I got more out of the Alert system than Nightwave, and I enjoyed my time playing at my own pace, doing what I wanted to do. That should tell you something's wrong with Nightwave, given the goal of Nightwave.

Nightwave would work better as a repeating/returning short 2 week event (given your standing carries over to when it returns, like Plague Star) with all 2 week's worth of Acts available from the start (given a range of options that do not all have to be completed, not even 50%), where people could cram all their playtime into a couple days and be done with it, and then get back to their own regularly scheduled fun activities at their own pace. The rewards in the standing ladder for the current pseudo-syndicate also match an event better than a "fixture" of the game like alerts were.

(The whole inventory and friend checks and spend-an-hour missions would have to go, though. Anything locked behind story progression doesn't fit an ideal system here either, for the intended purpose of the "Acts" in replacing the alert system, especially if you have a limited time to accomplish those tasks, and the effort to unlock those activities could not be accomplished within that time frame. It's a matter of psychology more than anything... it's not motivating to see objectives that you simply have no ability to complete, that's more like rewarding people for effort they already put into the game, not the event.)

~~~~~

The cred store has its own massive flaws, like a rotating inventory that creates the SAME issue of alerts not popping up when you're around... if the item's not in the shop when you have creds to buy it. If you miss the week out of town or vacation, and it was in the shop during that time, but rotates out and doesn't return during the same event period and all your progress and creds are wiped out when the event ends, you've missed it. Snooze, you lose. It's still there, and now, instead of just needing to be around when the alert pops up, you have to do a list of chores to rank up to reach a certain point where you earn Wolf-creds before you're eligible to buy the item from the shop.

PLUS, if you don't complete enough acts during the event (capped per week, no playing as much as you can when you can, and no taking breaks or being forcefully away from the game out of your control) all your effort could be for naught as all your progress and creds are wiped out when the event ends and you miss out on everything you cared about getting (considering most of the early stuff is stuff you don't care about anyway, and only want the last 3 rewards on the standing ladder.)

~~~~~

The "Challenges" that people want to see replacing "Acts" would fit much better in entirely optional Arbitrations or a riven type of system. (though, I really hate most riven challenges just like I avoid "Trophy" systems in most games because it's like being a trained pet being told to perform tricks for a master... I'm like... no thanks, that's not fun. No imaginary accolades are going to make that change.)

~~~~~
 

Spoiler

As a game designer, using the criteria provided by DE as their design goals for the Nightwave system, this is my view of how it has turned out, along with potential methods within the scope of their design, to fix Nightwave and Alerts.

It is my goal for both systems to make Warframe a better game for all, not just for my personal benefit or just what I like in my opinion.

I hope I didn't repeat myself too much, but as the discussion has progressed, I figured I'd throw this out there and potentially interrupt the back-and-forth that has polluted the intent of the thread to gather feedback.

 

Edited by (PS4)AyinDygra
it/it's
  • Like 3
  • Applause 2
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An idle thought occurs to me.

Perhaps instead of 'each challenge needs to be cleared'...

Let's say you've got an Elite Challenge. This challenge awards 6000 standing. But BELOW that challenge are three less-difficult challenges that are more accessible to newer players, and each gives 2000. You can clear either the elite challenge if you have access to what it requires, or you can do the three smaller challenges. You can't get more than the 6000 rep from a challenge 'cluster' even if you do it all, so people who can do the Elite can get it done in one challenge, while people who don't want to or can't due to their progression can do the smaller challenges instead. Maybe even continue the tree up, have a SUPER CHONKY challenge above Elite. Clears like 3 Elites and nabs 18000 rep, or 5 for 30,000.

Thus, choice in how to acquire our rep and the challenges we do. You can do harder things to clear challenges faster as well as having options as to what to do. This would also mitigate the impact of any 100% terrible challenges like your forma shenanigans.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seeing a lot of complaints that make my head spin, so I figured I'd try to provide some feedback and ideas that alleviate some of them.

First of all, I am a big fan of the Nightwave so far. I've completed every challenge (minus one daily, I think) and I don't feel as though I'm forced to do them outside of my own personal choice. That's probably the biggest head-scratcher for me in reading some of the forum posts. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't play it, but it seems the completionist in some is at odds with their personal enjoyment. I think there is probably a game design solution to that. So, let's get started...

Players feel "forced" to complete Nightwave:

I think there's more to it than this. The end-game players and completionists are going to try to do everything, but the players who aren't quite there might also feel as though they will miss out if they don't complete everything. Part of this is an information problem. It would be very helpful to know exactly how much time was left in the season. I think that should be displayed in-game in the Nightwave UI. This in conjunction with an element displaying how much total standing you need to get to rank 30 and how much potential standing you have left to gain before the end of the season. So somewhere on the UI you could have something like "230,000 of 300,000 to rank 30 -- 5 weeks (150,000 rep) remaining." Information like that would likely alleviate some concern and potential burnout for some players. For the end-game players and completionists I think it's more about quality of life changes to the challenges, which I'll get to later.

The old alerts let players choose the rewards they wanted:

I had no love for the old alerts, but I've seen plenty of people who did. I think the problem here is the frequency of currency rewards. I would like to see each rank up give some wolf cred or whatever the Nightwave currency will be as opposed to larger sums at scattered milestones. Maybe even award some currency for the daily missions. This will make access to the currency more frequent and new player friendly.

The old alerts provided a "quick play" option:

This is a small, but fair complaint I hadn't considered until I saw it mentioned on the forums. I'm not sure how prevalent this concern is in the community and there is about a million ways to address it, but I figured I'd just point it out. I guess invasions are a fine substitute. Maybe just improve the menu for that. Fewer clicks to get into a mission.

The Wolf...

For goodness sake... The Wolf is too tanky. I've seen him just a handful of times, mostly solo with loadouts that are at home in sorties and arbitrations, but the Wolf scoffs at my puny rivens and 4-6 forma'd weapons and frames. To make matters worse, he interrupted a public MR grind session I was in on Hydron at wave 5 with his invulnerable allies and he stuck around, halting all progress in the mission through multiple player deaths. I don't know why he was level 70. Seems a bit overkill for a bunch of frames and weapons that weren't maxed. Needless to say, we didn't kill him and he just timed out. It wasn't fun. The Wolf really doesn't need to be much more difficult than the stalker, especially if we're supposed to actually acquire what he drops before this thing ends.

The Challenges

As a quick general rule for these challenges: They should be doable for a casual player in conjunction with their usual activities (in regard to the time it takes to complete them, not necessarily difficulty). Balancing Nightwave challenges with some other event for someone with limited time to play is going to be irritating.

  • Silver Grove Specters - Crafting apothics is a nightmare. I took an extensive break from quests after starting the Silver Grove quest and I know people who took a break from Warframe entirely while doing that quest. It's a bad quest because it takes too many plants to craft the apothics and it takes too long to find the darned things, even when you know where to look. I don't see any reason why it should take more than 1 or 2 of each component to craft the apothics. The POE economy quality of life changes were far more impactful than making apothics easier to craft, so this should be a no-brainer, even if this is removed as a Nightwave challenge. No one else who runs the Silver Grove in the future should have to suffer through that.
  • Hour/Wave Endurance - I actually don't mind the survival for an hour, but it's a bit much for most people. Besides, once you can do an hour long survival, it doesn't take much to do it easily, and at that point it's just burnout inducing. The defense waves are far worse in my opinion, because the action is so much slower.
  • Ayatans - You get it already.
  • 9 Invasions - It's just too time consuming. I have no reason to run 1 invasion, let alone 9. 3 or 6 would be greatly appreciated.
  • 10 Nightmare - If the idea is that Elite challenges are difficult, just make it a high level nightmare (like the level 30 and above riven challenges). Same complaint as above. It's just time consuming.
  • Friend/Clan - I don't mind these so much, but I can't make my friends/clan-mates play.
  • X Amount of Sorties - 3 wasn't too bad, 5 was. I wouldn't make people run more than 3 in a week.

Overall, I am liking the Nightwave. Prior to this, my friends and I would get on and sit there trying to decide if we want to Kuva farm, Endo farm, or MR farm... It's nice to have a clear objective available. My biggest gripes are probably the Wolf fight and some of the more tedious challenges, but I think the Nightwave system is leaps and bounds better than alerts and was a much needed addition to the game. A little bit of work on the reward structure, UI (making the timeline and effort required more obvious), and challenges and it's great.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Again I disagree. 

You have nothing that you wish to add forma to, so yes, for you, at this time, there's no significant benefit to doing the challenge. Not doing the challenge and not earning the reward for doing so is a sensible choice for you to make. The system already allowed for us to skip many challenges for whatever reason. Skipping that challenge is unlikely to lock you out of the 30th tier. The 3k standing that you would earn translates to approximately 5 creds in the grand scheme of things, based on your current position in the ladder. 

You've chosen not to try to take those 5 cred worth of standing. That is called opportunity cost and is fundamentally different from losing out. 

Also, based on your position in the ladder, it means that you will have gained 6 forma after spending 3 forma. Congratulations, you are one of the few people who have managed to trade 3k standing for 3 forma. You're winning. 😉

I get it.  You're a troll.  Congratulations, you got me.

 

To my chagrin, I fell for it.  Whenever anyone calls you out on changing the definition of words, selectively interpreting responses, and blatantly generating straw men you continue on.  Without a single breath, you've already dismissed the holes in your own logic and lined up to praise the new thing.  I'd suggest evangelism as a profession, assuming that you're not already a used car seller.

 

Given you seem to not be bringing up new things, but responding selectively, I challenge your definition of words.  Namely Reward, Challenge, and Opportunity Cost.  You keep moving the bar, and admonishing others because they don't agree about liquid targets.

It is not a reward to grind for a thing, get it rewarded, and then immediately have to spend that thing to get less than another thing.  I earned 10,000 so I could do another challenge and get 3,000 in return.  10>3.  Trying to make it a reward because another challenge would make that equation move to 10>8 isn't making it a reward, only less expensive.  Please, tell me that everyone playing the game would have ground through 10 relics anyways, especially those who are starting out with no relics in the bank and no syndicate grind available (read: new players).  I'm looking forward to the argument that somehow every new player learns, by osmosis, that you can grind relics on certain maps.  

 

Alternatively, you can look at everything provided.  DE has never given the community anything.  They released a commercial product, based off of funds from backers.  The released product had a minimum functionality to it, and to get more you'll need to spend money or time.  Players invested money, and in exchange (read: not reward) got platinum.  They spent platinum on items, and to skip grind.  People with more time than money grind, and allow paying players to skip the grind.  As time has gone on DE offered more cosmetic, more purchasing options, and has kept the same minimal need for servers by hosting almost everything as P2P.  The move toward "Open Worlds" is the first significant investment into a DE side recurring "gift" to the community.  It came with silly levels of grind, operator cosmetics, an economy built on grinding to grind, and was only rectified more than a year later.

I'm OK with this arrangement.  DE demonstrably is OK with this.  It isn't condemnation, but it is a clear understanding of where we are.  Likewise, DE had better realize that if spending our rewards on the next grind is what they intend to do then they've messed up.  DE did this with the Arcane grind in Cetus, the non-rewarding rewards of sorties (Nezha).  If you're willing to argue that this is fine...stop talking.  Point made, and we know that you'll be down for more Nidus style grinds (how are those Infested Salvage and Defections going?).

 

I look forward to your twisted interpretations of the above.  I'd suggest you disagree than 8>10 because new players would do this anyways and thus everyone enjoys being forced to do something arbitrarily 10 times (more if you want to make things radiant).  Maybe you'll argue that DE has gifted us at every corner, and the existence of this game is a nod to their benevolence.  If there are half a dozen or more people calling your shifting point tenuous, maybe rather than arguing you should evaluate.  It's this sort of insanity that spawned truthers and those who believe in a flat earth.  Please, argue once more so I can get confirmation.

  • Haha 1
  • Applause 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

I get it.  You're a troll.  Congratulations, you got me.

 

To my chagrin, I fell for it.  Whenever anyone calls you out on changing the definition of words, selectively interpreting responses, and blatantly generating straw men you continue on.  Without a single breath, you've already dismissed the holes in your own logic and lined up to praise the new thing.  I'd suggest evangelism as a profession, assuming that you're not already a used car seller.

 

Given you seem to not be bringing up new things, but responding selectively, I challenge your definition of words.  Namely Reward, Challenge, and Opportunity Cost.  You keep moving the bar, and admonishing others because they don't agree about liquid targets.

It is not a reward to grind for a thing, get it rewarded, and then immediately have to spend that thing to get less than another thing.  I earned 10,000 so I could do another challenge and get 3,000 in return.  10>3.  Trying to make it a reward because another challenge would make that equation move to 10>8 isn't making it a reward, only less expensive.  Please, tell me that everyone playing the game would have ground through 10 relics anyways, especially those who are starting out with no relics in the bank and no syndicate grind available (read: new players).  I'm looking forward to the argument that somehow every new player learns, by osmosis, that you can grind relics on certain maps.  

 

Alternatively, you can look at everything provided.  DE has never given the community anything.  They released a commercial product, based off of funds from backers.  The released product had a minimum functionality to it, and to get more you'll need to spend money or time.  Players invested money, and in exchange (read: not reward) got platinum.  They spent platinum on items, and to skip grind.  People with more time than money grind, and allow paying players to skip the grind.  As time has gone on DE offered more cosmetic, more purchasing options, and has kept the same minimal need for servers by hosting almost everything as P2P.  The move toward "Open Worlds" is the first significant investment into a DE side recurring "gift" to the community.  It came with silly levels of grind, operator cosmetics, an economy built on grinding to grind, and was only rectified more than a year later.

I'm OK with this arrangement.  DE demonstrably is OK with this.  It isn't condemnation, but it is a clear understanding of where we are.  Likewise, DE had better realize that if spending our rewards on the next grind is what they intend to do then they've messed up.  DE did this with the Arcane grind in Cetus, the non-rewarding rewards of sorties (Nezha).  If you're willing to argue that this is fine...stop talking.  Point made, and we know that you'll be down for more Nidus style grinds (how are those Infested Salvage and Defections going?).

 

I look forward to your twisted interpretations of the above.  I'd suggest you disagree than 8>10 because new players would do this anyways and thus everyone enjoys being forced to do something arbitrarily 10 times (more if you want to make things radiant).  Maybe you'll argue that DE has gifted us at every corner, and the existence of this game is a nod to their benevolence.  If there are half a dozen or more people calling your shifting point tenuous, maybe rather than arguing you should evaluate.  It's this sort of insanity that spawned truthers and those who believe in a flat earth.  Please, argue once more so I can get confirmation.

No. I've disagreed with people about things but I have made points each time. In the bit that you quoted I responded to someone who admits that they did the first 3 forma challenge to their benefit, but is choosing to not bother with the second, as it won't benefit them. 

However by choosing to forsake those 3k in standing they're keeping the 3 extra forma and basically it's the whole opportunity cost concept. In his shoes I wouldn't do it either. 3 forma in the pocket instead of 5 creds isn't a bad tradeoff. Would you like to work out the cost of 3 forma in the creds store for comparison? 

 

Now it's one thing to claim holes in logic and a totally different thing to show them. I'm addressing specific parts of the posts that I am responding to. Yes I'm selective, because there are things that I don't disagree with, or disagree with to a lesser extent where I wouldn't care if it were changed. There are also a whole lot of issues that people are raising that have... nothing to do with nightwave. Some of what you wrote falls into that category. Like the whole guides of the Lotus issue you raised.

If you want to claim straw man fallacies are being used take a look at your posts, where you claim that someone will disagree with your suggestion out of hand, try to poison the well with ad hominems by suggesting evangelism or used car sales, truthers and flat earthers. Or theres "If you're willing to argue that this is fine...stop talking.  Point made, and we know that you'll be down for more Nidus style grinds (how are those Infested Salvage and Defections going?)." Yes you made a point... about Sorties, infected salvage and defections, not Nightwave. I'm sure that you are trying to make a point by comparing apples to oranges, but it really got lost somewhere. 

(Btw the infected salvage went well, I think. I got all of his parts in a couple of pretty relaxed days. A big part of the ease was probably due to a certain recently formad weapon. 😅 Pretty great for me, and I wasn't even doing it for the standing.) 

Now.. "It is not a reward to grind for a thing, get it rewarded, and then immediately have to spend that thing to get less than another thing.".. Really? You gave an example of the math to get the new primes. If I recall how that works it's something like, grind for let's say 10 relics, get those relics, open them and.. have a small chance of getting one part of a thing. Or hey if I make and gild an amp/zaw/whatever and turn it in for standing, I get significantly less standing than I put in to building it. Isn't that the way most of warframe works? So getting full return on investment, plus the improved items, is pretty great I figure. 

Lastly, please recall that when a round eather stands up in a flat earth convention and makes a point, a lot more than half a dozen people try to shut them down. Quite often they do that not by addressing the points they made, but by attacking the person speaking. 

I haven't attacked you, or your character, have I? Can you honestly claim the same thing? What does that tell you? 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

Alternatively, you can look at everything provided.  DE has never given the community anything.  They released a commercial product, based off of funds from backers.  The released product had a minimum functionality to it, and to get more you'll need to spend money or time.  Players invested money, and in exchange (read: not reward) got platinum.  They spent platinum on items, and to skip grind.  People with more time than money grind, and allow paying players to skip the grind.  As time has gone on DE offered more cosmetic, more purchasing options, and has kept the same minimal need for servers by hosting almost everything as P2P.  The move toward "Open Worlds" is the first significant investment into a DE side recurring "gift" to the community.  It came with silly levels of grind, operator cosmetics, an economy built on grinding to grind, and was only rectified more than a year later.

Agree. Warframe is a "pay to progress faster" game. That means you are buying *TIME*, when you purchase something with the ingame currency (platinum). And that's a pretty great method to make real money from  a product to me, I get it. BTW if you insert a system where the players have to do unnecessary time consuming stuff, for a limited span of time and to get some kind of rewards (just like nightwave), well, that means you have increased the time people are *forced* to play the game...and in a game where time is a key factor for its business model, this is pretty a critical issue to me. 

Edited by (PS4)nating51
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I can't see it in this thread...

As far as I can see there is no indication in the game as to when the event will end. Assuming that Wolf Creds have to be spent before the end, it would be beneficial to have some message so that people aren't caught out and unable to spend them. I've not seen if the creds will follow the Plague Star standing model and carry forward to the next iteration of the event, but some form of "spend it soon" warning would be appreciated.

  • Like 1
  • Applause 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Riftmancer said:

The end-game players and completionists are going to try to do everything, but the players who aren't quite there might also feel as though they will miss out if they don't complete everything

You make a bunch of good points but the quote actually covers the major issue with Nightwave.  It is a system of tasks (or chores if you don't care for them) that you have to do now, or miss out completely, as any progress you make is wiped out at the end of it (minus rewards).
This is a huge alteration for Warframe on the whole which has always been a 'progress at your own pace' kind of game.

Prior to Nightwave you could do things as fast or as slow as the individual player wished, with no chance of missing out.  However that just isn't really a viable option given that over 10 weeks you have to do most of the tasks to achieve the rank 30 goal (including at least 1 elite per week, if you miss all elites you likely wont make 30 without huge numbers of captures). 
Warframe has been teaching players all along to seek out that 30th rank with gear and to maximise syndicates for the top level stuff, to presume that isn't the case now would be silly. Sure players can avoid maxing out Nightwave, but that is like saying you don't have to get a frame or weapon to rank 30, or a syndicate to max rank.

There is only 52 weeks in a year and for the concept not to even become stale or stagnant there is going to need to be around 5+ variants.  That simply means you will see each maybe once per year. Presuming the system just isn't replaced by something else before then.

  • Like 1
  • Applause 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I doubt there is anything new to add after 85 pages, so just to drop my feedback.

Imo the big issue is the "10 weeks and then it`s over" format.
It adds pressure to play when you don`t really want to, it threatens you with missing out on things. Previously I logged in asking "what do I want to do today?", now I log in asking "what do I have to do?". Missing a week or two shouldn`t jeopardize a crazy 10 week-effort.

I like having those NW tasks, but I think it should rather be a weekly, endless loop where you can constantly earn currency for a weekly, endless shop.
As for the rewards that are currently in the timeline, they could instead be rewarded one by one for completing a week, or completing all elite tasks (if the system had no 10 week limit it wouldn`t matter if I can`t do an elite task yet, I could do it when the reward comes up next time).
Actually, this would have the added benefit of being able to balance those rewards to the difficulty/time-demand of the tasks.
 

About the tasks we have seen so far ... I am fine with everything except tasks which stop us from doing things at our own pace.
Using Formas, Statues etc., once you know such tasks exist you stop using those things when you want/need to, but start to strategize.
That aside there seem to be so many more options for tasks than what we have seen so far. But I suppose DE knows that, they just can`t code everything at once.

Lastly, imo the whole NW integration into the UI isn`t really good. E.g. it took me quite a while to notice the shop, since it`s just a small "press key" insert instead of a proper tab.
I also saw new players not even identifying the NW banner as a clickable element.

I hope a Nightwave-like system will stick around, but not in it`s current form.

Edited by D1sTrust
  • Like 6
  • Applause 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also think we need to have choices for more choice between Daily, Weekly and Elite Weekly missions.

This week, on consoles, we need for a weekly to complete 5 ayatan sculptures, which requires to find those ayatan sculptures; there is indeed a mission that give you one per week, if you're good enough at manoeuvering your Warframe (which is more difficult on console I guess, but probably doable) but how are we supposed to get the four other sculptures in a decent amount of time ? I'm even more surprised that I've read it's only 3 sculptures on PC, which seems a bit more doable but still a pretty bad weekly quest.

It gets worse when you think of the Elite Weekly at 5 sorties of console, which is a clear gatekeeping for late-game players. I consider Spy and Rescue missions in these sorties really difficult, because the gamepad controls don't allow for precise choice of which tile you want to turn - which make for longer deciphering - which makes for a failed mission because the damage output of the enemy is way too high. Except if you're high level enough to have maxed mods, which is maybe the goal there. But if it was, why the requirement is only 3 sorties on PC ? Still high, but a higher chance to avoid those Spy/Rescue missions that are usually gate lockers.

Now compared to both of those, the grindy 10 relics and 10 nightmare missions are very easy reputation points. However, they destroy the playtime you might have needed for other tasks, such as trying to get some Endo or some resources to be actually able to tackle those sorties or higher level stuff. But at least they seem and are doable.

The grindy "Complete 9 Invasion missions of any type" is okay though; I've seen some complaints but that seem more accessible than the 5 ayatan sculpture by far, and those invasion missions are a godsend for getting already built Fieldrons or Detonite Injections. 9 is maybe a bit too much as said; maybe 6 for the normal weekly and 12 for the elite weekly would have been decent choices ?

All in all, the moments I'm glad of Nightwave is whenever you have the most blend requirements possible. It means you'll deal with them quickly, grab the rewards, and continue to do pretty much what is most important to increase one's power after getting those reputation points and the associated rewards.

A solution for me would also to give a weekly cap on reputation points from weekly/daily missions, and give far more choices between difficult or missions requiring an optimized gears and pure grindy missions; like 15,000 points for the elite, but 6 possibles missions, each giving 5 000 points (up to 15000): 3 sorties, or 5 completed ayatan sculptures, or 5 consecutive waves of elite sanctuary onslaught, or 10 orb vallis mission, or kill 100 Eximus enemies, or open 10 relics.

There's currently absolutely no control over the difficulty or the time consumption of the tasks and that's, for me, a big problem.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, (NSW)pikachuyann said:

I also think we need to have choices for more choice between Daily, Weekly and Elite Weekly missions.

This week, on consoles, we need for a weekly to complete 5 ayatan sculptures, which requires to find those ayatan sculptures; there is indeed a mission that give you one per week, if you're good enough at manoeuvering your Warframe (which is more difficult on console I guess, but probably doable) but how are we supposed to get the four other sculptures in a decent amount of time ? I'm even more surprised that I've read it's only 3 sculptures on PC, which seems a bit more doable but still a pretty bad weekly quest.

It gets worse when you think of the Elite Weekly at 5 sorties of console, which is a clear gatekeeping for late-game players. I consider Spy and Rescue missions in these sorties really difficult, because the gamepad controls don't allow for precise choice of which tile you want to turn - which make for longer deciphering - which makes for a failed mission because the damage output of the enemy is way too high. Except if you're high level enough to have maxed mods, which is maybe the goal there. But if it was, why the requirement is only 3 sorties on PC ? Still high, but a higher chance to avoid those Spy/Rescue missions that are usually gate lockers.

Now compared to both of those, the grindy 10 relics and 10 nightmare missions are very easy reputation points. However, they destroy the playtime you might have needed for other tasks, such as trying to get some Endo or some resources to be actually able to tackle those sorties or higher level stuff. But at least they seem and are doable.

The grindy "Complete 9 Invasion missions of any type" is okay though; I've seen some complaints but that seem more accessible than the 5 ayatan sculpture by far, and those invasion missions are a godsend for getting already built Fieldrons or Detonite Injections. 9 is maybe a bit too much as said; maybe 6 for the normal weekly and 12 for the elite weekly would have been decent choices ?

All in all, the moments I'm glad of Nightwave is whenever you have the most blend requirements possible. It means you'll deal with them quickly, grab the rewards, and continue to do pretty much what is most important to increase one's power after getting those reputation points and the associated rewards.

A solution for me would also to give a weekly cap on reputation points from weekly/daily missions, and give far more choices between difficult or missions requiring an optimized gears and pure grindy missions; like 15,000 points for the elite, but 6 possibles missions, each giving 5 000 points (up to 15000): 3 sorties, or 5 completed ayatan sculptures, or 5 consecutive waves of elite sanctuary onslaught, or 10 orb vallis mission, or kill 100 Eximus enemies, or open 10 relics.

There's currently absolutely no control over the difficulty or the time consumption of the tasks and that's, for me, a big problem.

It's easy to get Ayatan sculptures. Ignore Maroo's mission if you find it difficult (I have yet to finish one on PC, I have better things to do with my time than looting an entire Void mission only to fail at the last hurdle because I don't have a maxed out speed frame). I've found the best way to get them is to run missions solo with max loot radar and collect everything. I've also been told that a max range Limbo is also good because his cataclysm will break all crates in a 45m radius. Syndicate missions are good for looting (getting all of the medallions really boosts Syndicate rank, which I then use to buy relic packs), but avoid Defence, Rescue, Interception/Excavation as it's too difficult to balance looting with the mission objective. Doing it in public isn't effective, because you can't trust everyone to take their time searching and I find them distracting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess it'll be a matter of having the Carrier's Looter Mod and run with the highest loot radar then; which is not so different from trying to get the three corpus caches in those sabotage missions (which I kinda hate), for the added bonus of having no frame restriction;

Doesn't remove the general idea that I would like to have some choice between quite difficult (gear checks or skill check) vs quite grindy missions and not have to do a mix of both for the next iteration of Nightwave.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, (NSW)pikachuyann said:

I consider Spy and Rescue missions in these sorties really difficult, because the gamepad controls don't allow for precise choice of which tile you want to turn - which make for longer deciphering

Sorry for being a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to agree that tile-hacking with gamepad seems more difficult. I am playing on PC, but with a xbox controller, so I have the same problem.
I didn`t know ciphers (the saving grace for gamepad users) can be disabled on sorties, now I don`t even want to try them. 😕

Would be nice to see that reworked sometimes to make it more manageable for gamepad users.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, AndyBeans said:

It's easy to get Ayatan sculptures.

The problem is that they don't always show up: Sculptures have a chance of spawning on a given map, as opposed to being a guaranteed spawn. For some people, one in every three runs might yield a sculpture. For others, it could be one out of every five...or worse.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Yeah, pretty sad to see the folks in here trying to argue that the people who don't like nightwave, or don't like some things about it are wrong, and that others should like it because they like it.

People who dislike this stuff, they are not lying, they are not wrong, and their opinions are entirely valid. How they claim to feel, in all likelihood really is how they actually feel, whether it makes sense to you or not. Instead of trying to point out how they are wrong, or how their opinion is wrong, or saying to stop playing warframe if they don't like it, or other such childish and pedantic responses, trying to find solutions which can please them while yet retaining the things you like about NW would be so much more productive.

My suggestion is to bring back alerts, and to keep nightwave too. To improve alerts, and to improve nightwave as well.

Nightwave:

  • wolf creds should be nora creds and they should persist from one episode to the next.
  • wolf/nora creds should be earned in small amounts from every challenge. so people who just need something from offerings aren't forced to play through large portions of the episode.
  • Tier rewards should be players choice, pick one from the whole list, each tier. I know some will say, no way, you can't just take umbral forma at tier 2 and then drop nightwave. But why not? If nightwave is fun and the rewards are all good people will want to do as much as they can, but they won't feel cheated if they can't do it all. People will keep doing the challenges to get the wolf/nora creds as well, for nitain and what have you. This way they can get what they really want, no matter how much time they do or don't have, and then they can earn creds and pick up additional rewards at their own pace without feeling like they'll be punished for not having as much free time as others.
  • At the start of the episode, give players a couple of nightwave vouchers which can be used to skip a task. Just two is probably fine. Even for some players who can and will reach 30 without them, it would still go a long ways in relieving the pressure, or the feeling of being cheated by being locked out of tasks due to standing and such. It's not enough to bypass every task that requires standing, but it is enough that they won't feel clobbered by these tasks in the first week or two, to the point they aren't sure if they can even do nightwave to any meaningful degree.
  • The point is that this should not be forced, and it should not leave players investing large amounts of time to get some far off reward and then not getting it. Feeling forced to do nightwave for weeks on end to get one thing they want, is much worse than alerts were for some people,  and its the sort of thing that leaves some people feeling a bit exhausted by the time they get it. I bet a lot of people will take a break from wf once this episode is over, even if they get all the rewards. On the other hand, those who tried to get the umbral forma and wolf armor and yet in the end fail, will feel discouraged, even punished by the game, and many of them are liable to take a break from wf too. And that exhaustion and disappointment causing people to feel they need to take a break from wf, is the opposite of what was intended by nw, which was meant at least in part to increase player retention.
    I know that one dude is probably going to quote me and say 'it isn't forced and if you don't like nightwave, you don't have to do it, and you can go play destiny instead.' Honestly though this sort of response, which I've seen repeated numerous times in this lengthy thread, is simply obtuse, and kind of childish. We all like warframe, that is why we are here, we want to play warframe, and if we want to play warframe, then nightwave is all but required, because we need nitain to build warframes and gear, and those warframes and that gear are central to what warframe is. This sort of response though, it simply demonstrates someone being either willfully obtuse or a fundamental lack of insight into human psychology. No, no one has a gun to our heads, but that isn't the point either.
  • One more thing, add a toggle to disable repeating Nora voice broadcasts. When disabled, each of her voice recordings will play once, and only once. Maybe toggling it on and off again could reset this so that they each play again, once. Yeah cool, they tell a story, she is kind of the narrator of the episode, DE took the time to produce the content, and it's okay to play it as intended, but not over and over an over again...

Alerts:

  • Bring them back in an improved state. It seldom makes sense to remove content, and they could continue to serve as a nice alternative to nightwave for people who simply can't focus on the game daily for weeks on end.
  • Make alerts more elaborate involving multiple hops around the solar system, with branches at key points. Have increasingly valuable rewards for each hop, and have branches which lead to different rewards.
  • Have alert bosses randomly generated from lists of attributes/strengths/weaknesses/abilities/companions/weapons/etc., and have them use a cool modular character model system so that their appearnace is randomized as well.
  • Alerts should drop into players' alert ques where they will remain until they are either completed or superseded by new alerts, with the alert que retaining two alerts and removing the oldest one to make room for new ones.
  • Once you launch an alert from the alert que and complete it, it should be removed from the que, but it will only be removed from the que of the individual player that launched it.
  • So you can complete the same alert more than once by joining the games of players who have not launched it yet. However...
  • Completing the same alert more than once will give dwindling rewards, with successive completions granting rewards of progressively decreasing value.
  • Have bonus rewards for meeting various special conditions when completing alerts. Such as completing all stages of an alert with the same squad, different bonus rewards for completing individual legs of an alert solo, additional bonus rewards per player for completing individual legs of an alert with melee only, etc., etc..
  • The idea is to make the alerts more interesting and engaging, while also addressing the issue many had with missing alerts for rare items they needed, by making them more accessible via the alert que.
    It is even possible with this system to ask a friend to hold off completing an alert for an item one needs, say if one is out of town for an extended period. The friend can still complete other alerts since the que can hold 2, and as long as they do every new alert that comes up, then that 1 they didn't do won't get pushed out of the que so they could save it for for their buddy when he got back.

Alerts and Nightwave:

Finally these two systems could work together and complement each other, in all sorts of fun and interesting ways. Could be nightwave challenges to complete certain alerts, and there could be some special alerts based on the current nightwave episode. Like an alert which takes the players in pursuit of a large gang of saturn six fugitives which could grant some nice bonus nightwave standing for capturing a bunch of fugitives in the end (just one example off the top of my head). Also some alerts could include some of the wolf/nora creds as part of their rewards.


All these suggestions boil down to letting players play the way they like to play, let them explore the content they want to explore at the pace they are comfortable with, and reward them as they go at their own pace. Give them the tools to enjoy the game to its fullest, without making them feel forced, pressured, punished, discouraged, or exhausted. It is one thing for a quest to be challenging, or a mission to be hard, but it is something else for the way content is pushed to be demanding even when not on a mission. Nightwave could be great for retaining players and keeping them interested with episodic content that they can chip away comfortably without being a drag, or a chore, but rather just an opportunity. Alerts too could be just that much more content, adding life and interest to the warframe universe and offering an alternative means of acquiring some rare items and resources for those who simply can not devote the time needed to get them through the more stable source of nightwave. So everyone can play the game they love, the way they love to play it!
 

For the record I am a couple tiers away from 30 for nightwave. I'll finish it no problem. I have really not enjoyed it though, it has been kind of a drag, but not so much of a drag as to make it worth throwing away the rewards on offer. I'm not that new of a player, but I was away for years, and factions and standing are new to me so I had none when nightwave began.

For higher level players, there probably is not so much pressure and that pressure is part of what makes these tasks feel like chores and time sinks. For instance, if you have the required standing and no problem doing orb mother, and profit taker and gilding modular items, and have sorties unlocked, etc.. then you don't have to worry too much about missing a task or two, just because you don't feel like doing it. or because you don't have time, or whatever. However for players without high standing in cetus and fortuna we learned early on that there may be numerous tasks in any given week which we can not accomplish, period.

This left us feeling like we had better do all of the tasks we possibly can do, and even then, still being uncertain whether we would be able to reach 30, or even get close. Even more so for casual players who don't follow the forums, which are many, because they had no idea how long this would last.

So for higher level players who probably have plenty of forma, and forma BPs, they could choose not to use 3 forma for that task because they didn't want to, and not have to worry that maybe next week they would be locked out of half the tasks. While a lower level player who might only have 5 forma, and no BPs would feel much greater pressure to use those forma, essentially negating one of the rewards they are working towards, and possibly wasting a forma on an mk1 weapon or something silly like that.

I'm trying to look at things from a broader perspective than my own here. I don't want to ruin nightwave for anyone who loves it or thinks it is perfect, but I do think it could be tweaked to be better for everyone who doesn't like it, without ruining it for those who do.

Edited by Arc5in
  • Like 3
  • Applause 3
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Arc5in said:

For the record I am a couple tiers away from 30 for nightwave. I'll finish it no problem. I have really not enjoyed it though, it has been kind of a drag, but not so much of a drag as to make it worth throwing away the rewards on offer.

I completely agree with your post and wish i could give it 2 upvotes.

The players i've met that already completed nightwave said that the biggest reward is that they don't have to do any more challenges. For now. Until next season that is. But almost all of them (10+) will not even start with the next season because the only reason they kept on going was that they didn't want to lose all their effort and the grind they already put into it.

Same situation with several of the twitch partners, they burn through all the challenges on sunday/monday and then drop warframe for the rest of the week. Nightwave is responsible for that.

  • Like 6
  • Applause 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...