Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

[Probo]

My 2 cents on the nightwave and umbra forma debacle

Nightwave is an incredible addition to the game, it gives new players an absolutely needed extra boost, at the same time as acting like an extra added bonus reward for everyone playing the game and doing various things. It also has the potential to diversify gameplay for many players who otherwise might get bogged down doing a singular type of mission all the time without even thinking about it. It has all these fantastic positive things about it. But for anyone who feels compelled and a very strong drive for absolute completion, it turns into something quite the reverse, a nasty 10 week scheduled chore-list.

So it all comes down to the way people view the rewards of the nightwave. When I look at the current reward pool I only feel like 1 items is unmissable, you guessed it. The umbra forma. This is not to say that I might not feel otherwise during other weeks if there is better cosmetic/emote rewards. Then I would feel a strong compelling reason to enter into this torturous 10 weeks of chores again.

I think of many good ways to fix this. The mods being tradable is an absolutely positive and important factor. If the umbra forma was tradable this would be a plus, but it wouldn't solve the underlying problem. If you make for example, the wolf credits able to buy the later rewards without having to participate for the whole 30 ranks, that would make things a lot better. You might also enable some kind of shop where you can buy earlier rewards from previous nightwave events for double the price of wolf credits, so nobody feels left out who wasn't playing the game earlier.

I am sure you can figure it out, but PLEASE don't try to use the umbral forma as a way to force players to play a ton of chores every week just to not get left out of having immeasurably powerful warframes, it's just evil.

[(NSW)Hatemachine]

4 hours ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

So out of curiosity, what here did you not understand that required you to respond with a meme instead of an actual response that this isnt an exact replica of your arguments made manifest.

If your unable to fight this thing tough, your screwed & its all the players fault for not being prepared & hpw we should quit whining about how all we want is to be entitled to a win, how is that difficult to grasp out of there?

Whatever the case you've stated yours & frankly, ill never get the meme generation, anyway.

Glad to hear this thing has a nerf coming, wouldve been fine with giving us a reason to fight the bastard over a nerf but as per DEs usual M.O take the easy road instead of a creative one.

If this meatsack could have a good chance dropping a glut of wolf creds & rep points or even a .01 chance for an umbra forma or some other highly sought reward people would actively fight even the burly bugger we have now & the fight would be worth it. Hell Rep alone might have been enough, say 3k per downing of the wolf & hos pack, that could go a long way to easing some of the NW jitters people have about getting enough rep in time for those goodies.

And ive never had the wolf just vanish after everyone died, ever, if there were indeed a way for him to vanish in that event or over a period of time I would easily retract EVERY argument, save the pathetic rewards table he has, that I have had about the Wolfs difficulty, as it is, I have yet to see him move on & the thing just hangs around the mission like a spawn camper in PVP games.

 

[Graavarg]

4 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

EDIT: I forgot this little bit at the start: The whole Rank 30 is for everyone thing is mainly based on the fact that every rank beyond that is considered "Prestige", or above and beyond the normal achievable rank (that's why it's prestige, and the others aren't) and I hold DE to that, because people are holding DE's wording to the flames regarding Acts as "Challenges" and the expected difficulty expected of "Elite" challenges, and such.

The other reason, is the whole 60% thing that everyone likes to say is all you need, was supposed to allay fears of missing out... you don't NEED to do more than 60% to get everything important from the event... that's the overall feel I personally get from the source of that figure. (from DE mostly, but also from the people perpetuating it.) "Everyone" should be able to do AT LEAST that much... (and players tacked on the feelings and insinuations: "like, really, how little do you play this game? Do you even like it? Come on.")

Impressively long post. However, nowhere has DE stated that everyone should be able to get to tier 30 (though it actually is possible for everyone), or even that tier 30 is "the goal". Neither is it stated anywhere that players are even meant to max Wolf credits or Prestige credits. And of course that is as it should be, like before you have to invest game time and effort to get your rewards (ever had you phone waking you every 6-7 hours because you desperately needed to get nitain and an alert became active?). The opposite is also true, if you do NOT invest enough effort and time, you won't max your rewards.

As to getting helmets, catalysts & aura mods etc., before you either had to be luckily online when the helmet or mod was the reward for an alert, or have the phone app and check every "pling", and then log on (within an hour) to do the alert. Now you can gather Wolf credits over ten week by doing the missions you want, whenever you want. That daily missions times out in three days and the rest in a week makes the drops (and alert challenges) enormously more available than before (which DE also points out several times). You can now choose and pick, which becomes more important the more stuff you already have. Think about the chance of getting the last aura mod or helmet you want as the random reward for the old alerts...

The difference is, however, that you can now also see all the things you can buy, whereas before every alert (except nitain) felt like a random drop of manna from heaven. This has obviously kicked the "want"-factor to new heights. An example: it is probably possible to collect all aura mods faster now than before (when they appeared semi-randomly as rewards now and then), and it is decidedly faster to get just the aura mods you want. This is of course a (very) good thing, especially for "starmappers" that doesn't have them yet. But paradoxically it is experienced as "a bad thing", due to the psychological reasons behind not being able to get your hands on ALL that you want. And some players want it all, and feel entitled to get it, even while not even being willing to gather the maximum amount of credits available. They feel entitled to get more for less, and the gripe from this viewpoint is...  ... extensive.

The other psycho-paradox linked to this is that if DE had put only half of the stuff on display in the shop, or rotated in a fourth of merchandise every week and had a "weekly" Wolf credits standing award, the feeling of "missing out" (and "wanting more") would be less, and thus the gripe and the complaints would be less. Even if the situation for the player has actually become worse, with less options to choose from. The human mind, go figure...

[Marine027]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Graavarg:

Impressively long post. However, nowhere has DE stated that everyone should be able to get to tier 30 (though it actually is possible for everyone), or even that tier 30 is "the goal". Neither is it stated anywhere that players are even meant to max Wolf credits or Prestige credits. And of course that is as it should be, like before you have to invest game time and effort to get your rewards (ever had you phone waking you every 6-7 hours because you desperately needed to get nitain and an alert became active?). The opposite is also true, if you do NOT invest enough effort and time, you won't max your rewards.

As to getting helmets, catalysts & aura mods etc., before you either had to be luckily online when the helmet or mod was the reward for an alert, or have the phone app and check every "pling", and then log on (within an hour) to do the alert. Now you can gather Wolf credits over ten week by doing the missions you want, whenever you want. That daily missions times out in three days and the rest in a week makes the drops (and alert challenges) enormously more available than before (which DE also points out several times). You can now choose and pick, which becomes more important the more stuff you already have. Think about the chance of getting the last aura mod or helmet you want as the random reward for the old alerts...

The difference is, however, that you can now also see all the things you can buy, whereas before every alert (except nitain) felt like a random drop of manna from heaven. This has obviously kicked the "want"-factor to new heights. An example: it is probably possible to collect all aura mods faster now than before (when they appeared semi-randomly as rewards now and then), and it is decidedly faster to get just the aura mods you want. This is of course a (very) good thing, especially for "starmappers" that doesn't have them yet. But paradoxically it is experienced as "a bad thing", due to the psychological reasons behind not being able to get your hands on ALL that you want. And some players want it all, and feel entitled to get it, even while not even being willing to gather the maximum amount of credits available. They feel entitled to get more for less, and the gripe from this viewpoint is...  ... extensive.

The other psycho-paradox linked to this is that if DE had put only half of the stuff on display in the shop, or rotated in a fourth of merchandise every week and had a "weekly" Wolf credits standing award, the feeling of "missing out" (and "wanting more") would be less, and thus the gripe and the complaints would be less. Even if the situation for the player has actually become worse, with less options to choose from. The human mind, go figure...

Yet you can't safe up your Wolf Creds to safe for lets say a Aura you need or Nitain, it is very new player unfriendly that way and new player obviously might go for the most expensive stuff like catalysts and reactors without knowing better.

Alerts were flawed but i still not see why we could not have them along Nightwave simply, people keep acting like Alerts get gloriefied and Nighwave is the devil, both have its flaws and both can be worked on, but it seems easier to remove alerts apperently and THAT is lazy game design, can't fix it, remove it.

And the forums and DE can state as much they want, the info ingame lacks the infos we need, how long does Nightwve go, how far we goten, how much more can we allow us to miss.

Nightwave itself simply presents itself as a forced limited event, it not helps that those kind of events are random to much, Ghouls we get every 2 weeks or so, Theraform Fissures are back already and even its goal reward got saved, while other things like lets say Acolytes come back every two years at best apperently, Warframe is very inconsistent with those kind of events, so no suprise then if people simply start to panic over this.

As said, Nighwave isn't bad, but it can improve and needs to, same for alerts which should come back because complaining about its RNG factor is the same as complainign about RNG at all, and this game is a Farm/Grind/RNG game from the start and always will be still, but its still doable, but we also are open to say how we feel about this kind of things and openly stay critic towards it on the forums as feedback.

There is a difference simply between fun in gamepaly and just a chore to do things like this, Syndicats as example you also can choose and see your goal whenever you attmept to work for it, Nightwave forces you to play in a specific time of the year, it is not just a simple chirstmas event or so.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Marine027

[Ikusias]

Even after the nerf the Wolf is a X#ç§<it fight:

immune to all powers, hits trough the walls and intervening units,utterly ignoring cover and obstacles (also his sliding animation is fugly), his 3 stooges are invulnerable and can oneshot you with their molotov bottles... through the walls!? Just fought the troll and while the stupidly high armor and damage reduction have been reined in, the other stupid aspects of the fight still remain.

It's just a bullet point list of don't do's:

- don't trivialize/ignore/remove player's abilities

- don't make the enemies invulnerable

- no one hit ko's regardles of player level/equipment

- no wall hacks

- no ganking and running

Getting tired of everyone and their dog being immune to warframe abilities in general!

 

[(NSW)Hatemachine]

Sorry but I have to disagree, if everything were susceptible to warframe abilities you could stun lock a boss so they couldnt even fight till various DoT & status afflictions finished the boss off, no fight, no threat, just coasting along, while this would be in theory, in application it fails, the difference between Ole wolfy & say a nightmare run of lech Krill or vor, lephantis & so forth, the rewards are worth the effort expended & a challenge is presented that even with random odds of getting what you want, even long odds, like finding the 60/60 mod on nelgar doing the sabotage cache thing, the effort meets with a viable & somewhat reasonable reward for time expended.

The bosses are the stepping stones & should be as they are, a testing ground for the accumulated knowledge & equipment up to that point in the games narrative.

The wolf just drops anytime, anywhere & geared or not is just not worth the time, even making him easier, doesnt make it better if theres no reason to tangle with him & he refuses to leave, like old ganny farts, just hangs about making everyone miserable but unwilling to say anything about it.

Sure you could view him as a boss meant for the higher end MR players, but really? again he doesnt give anything a MR11 or higher player would even have use for short of fluff & personal prestige in a month or so when people start asking where that hammer came from.

[Unagi604]

I enjoy the Wolf fights, but there are problems with the event around him overall. He appears both too often, and not enough.

With how powerful the Wolf is, I can see why it would be problematic to have him appear constantly. I've had to limit my gear selection heavily just for this event. Always needing to take a frame with abilities that are actually usable against the Wolf, and at least 1 weapon that is purely damage focused. Though having the sense of danger spices up the every day farming/grinding, he appears too often, as his appearance without the right gear means a wash for the mission. Often enough that variety of gear (one of Warframe's great features) is very limited, since everyone has to deal with him eventually.

With a seasonal type prize system, if the Wolf disappears along with his drops, he also appears not often enough. I've logged about 30 hours each week for the last 2 weeks (according to Steam) and so far, I've only been able to get the blueprint for the hammer. I've been looking for him all weekend, and he hasn't appeared once.

This is like frosting on grilled cheese. While having a difficult and rare fight makes the prizes valued, and having limited time events rewards players who put in the effort, combining these 2 otherwise positive things, leaves a situation of only negative. As problematic as he is, I am trying to find the Wolf. I'm running mission after mission because I want the prize. I've been given a limited amount of time (the current season), and that means I'm being told to do something with urgency. The problem is that we've been given an time limited task, that is also an undefined task. We have no power in progressing to the goal I've been given as there is really nothing to do. This is fine for something like the gear dropped by the Stalker or G3 because they are not time limited. There's no grind them because they will appear eventually. With the Wolf however, we have no control over it. We can't really put in the effort because there's no where to put the effort into, yet with the event limit, effort is being requested. This is a horrible mismatch and created a bad experience overall.

The Wolf himself. This has been a trend for a long time, and this is just another step in the problem. CC frames are dead, and now the Wolf is taking a #2 on their graves. The Wolf is invulnerable to status and abilities. Variety is what makes Warframe great. The Wolf allows for none of that. Rivens were added to help fight there being constant metas, yet the Wolf is forcing us to use specific gear and frames. These are problems that end game players have. For everyone else, they don't even have the choice to play with restricted gear, because they haven't even gotten to the point where they begin to suffer these limits. Instead they just have to let their missions get spoiled.

[Iludra]

This has been covered by other people before, but let me add my voice to it, now that I've had plenty of time to get used to how Nightwave works. Overall, I'm not very happy with the system, but I think it could be fixed, and I trust you folks will figure this out. Here are all the points that I believe need to be addressed in order to make Nightwave a good player experience:

1. Time commitment
Compared to alerts, Nightwave requires a huge time investment for the same rewards. It would have been ok if most of the tasks could be done passively while playing the game, and perhaps you folks have thought they would. This is not the case. It's further compounded by the fact that you only get credits at certain stages, meaning that not only you have to put a lot of time in, you also wait a long time before you feel rewarded. Right now, the economy feels way off. 

2. Player choice
I realize this is a tricky one, because you want that sweet spot of compulsion and freedom. Too much of either, and the game gets annoying or boring. Currently, Nightwave sits way too far on the compulsion side of the spectrum. This would be ok, if it wasn't for the point I brought up above. This means there's very little time left to play the game the way you want, if you also want to complete the Nightwave season. Because Nightwave is temporary in nature, most players will feel obliged to complete it. That's why Nightwave feels like work - activities you may not want to perform but you have to, and once you complete them, you can have your "free time" within the game. Give us more choice when it comes to Nightwave. 

3. Voice transmissions
I like Nora as a character, and would have nothing against her transmissions if I heard them standalone. However, they make for a really jarring experience in game. I'm being my best self because I opened a bunch of lockers? I'm the baddest of badasses because I deployed a glyph? I present to you, talking amongst us, once and future, cringe-ass. You get my point. There is no connection between the task and the content of Nora's comment, nor the scale of her admiration is matched to the scale of difficulty. I don't want to disable all transmissions just to get Nora out of my ears though. I would appreciate hearing Nora if it was better meshed with the gameplay.

4. Lore
I love the fact that you folks bring us more lore. However, it is painfully disconnected from the gameplay and the rest of the universe, and it just doesn't feel right. For most missions and events, the nature of the mission somewhat ties to the story. Ghouls? Purge them. Thermia? Seal it. Alerts? Lotus' operatives are on this mission, help them. Nora telling you stories on the radio? Jump, dance, open lockers, kill whoever you want but in this specific way - what for? Why? How does it help Nora? How does she even know? I feel like the most important part of the story was left out, and it makes the whole thing rather shallow.

I'm leaving Wolf himself out of this, because it's a separate topic in my eyes. I appreciate a new boss, despite his flaws. I don't appreciate his abysmal chances to appear though, but that's not enough for me to dislike the concept.

Looking forward to see how Nightwave evolves in its next iterations.

[Solarsyphon]

At the end of night wave can we have a node to assassinate the wolf as maybe a 1 week event or something. End the season with a boss rush maybe something like acolytes but for wolf.

 

Also Nora needs tunes!

Edited April 14, 2019 by Solarsyphon
Nora needs tunes

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

14 hours ago, Marine027 said:

Yet you can't safe up your Wolf Creds to safe for lets say a Aura you need or Nitain, it is very new player unfriendly that way and new player obviously might go for the most expensive stuff like catalysts and reactors without knowing better.

We can't? So... How come so many people have 300 unspent creds right now? 

Are you sure that you didn't just get some bogus information from one of the "sky is falling" crowd? 

3 hours ago, Iludra said:

Compared to alerts, Nightwave requires a huge time investment for the same rewards. It would have been ok if most of the tasks could be done passively while playing the game, and perhaps you folks have thought they would. This is not the case. It's further compounded by the fact that you only get credits at certain stages, meaning that not only you have to put a lot of time in, you also wait a long time before you feel rewarded. Right now, the economy feels way off. 

Uh nightwave is a mix of 2 things one is the alert replacement, the other is an event. For many people each week is between 3 and 4 tiers in a few hours play, and in the early tiers that translates to about 50 creds per week. 

I do agree that the economy does feel way off, and I do hope that it gets a rebalance to favour the newbs, so they can afford more rewards. 

[Marine027]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

We can't? So... How come so many people have 300 unspent creds right now? 

Are you sure that you didn't just get some bogus information from one of the "sky is falling" crowd?

Cred Offerings StoreEdit

Apart from the ranking rewards, Nightwave also features a Creds Offering store, where players can purchase various items such as Aura Mods and Cosmetics.

During each series of Nightwave, players can earn an exclusive special currency by ranking up, which are then used to purchase the aforementioned Nightwave offerings. Note that after the end of a particular series, this currency will expire and the next Nightwave series will introduce a new currency to spend.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Nightwave

Edited April 14, 2019 by Marine027

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

4 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Cred Offerings StoreEdit

Apart from the ranking rewards, Nightwave also features a Creds Offering store, where players can purchase various items such as Aura Mods and Cosmetics.

During each series of Nightwave, players can earn an exclusive special currency by ranking up, which are then used to purchase the aforementioned Nightwave offerings. Note that after the end of a particular series, this currency will expire and the next Nightwave series will introduce a new currency to spend.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Nightwave

If you can't afford enough wolf creds to buy a single item at the end of the 10+ weeks, you really won't be losing out on anything. Or was there something that you thought they were going to offer for 1000 creds? 

In other news, what you thought was a piece of the sky that had fallen was really just an acorn. 🙄

[random__noob]

1 hour ago, Solarsyphon said:

At the end of night wave can we have a node to assassinate the wolf NORA as maybe a 1 week event or something.

There I fixed that for you. Her AND her microphone please. I would probably pay plat to do that.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, random__noob said:

There I fixed that for you. Her AND her microphone please. I would probably pay plat to do that.

I still don't trust her very much, either. 

[DatDarkOne]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I still don't trust her very much, either. 

Well, considering al the stuff that we are finding out in the story, we as Tenno shouldn't be trusting anyone very much right now.  

[Bit_Reactor]

I made a whole big topic/post about it and then found this forum. Woops. Won't double post but all my feedback has been made in a post, hope that helps!

[master_of_destiny]

So, let's look at the economy, for those missing out on why things are less rewarding right now.

 

Objectively, you get 250 credits for levels 0-30, and 15 credits thereafter.  The new items on offer are:

1. Tonkor Desert camo skin - 30 credits
2. Atterax Desert camo skin - 30 credits
3. Marelok Desert camo skin - 30 credits
4. Grinlok Desert camo skin - 30 credits
5. Hek Desert camo skin - 30 credits
6. Karak Desert camo skin - 30 credits
7.  Saturn Six Ornament - 40 credits

To those not counting, that's 220 credits.  Those veterans have 30 credits left, until they have to grind.  No Reactor or Catalyst, until you've ground through at least 3 additional levels of the event.  Even then, one in 10 weeks is less rewarding that the random invasions have been for me over the same time.

 

What about new players?  Well, they can skip the new cosmetics.  No sense in buying them when you can't even get an aura mod.  No sense in getting them when you can't get Nitain.  No sense in getting them when even a basic warframe has to go without a reactor, and you can't equip mods because the catalyst you need is locked behind another grind wall.  If you'd like to understand as a veteran remove all rare mods, remove the aura, and limit your frames to half their mod capacity.  Is this how you'd like to be introduced to the game?

 

What does it compare to?  Well, in one year I went from -5 reactors and -3 catalysts (restarted with 5 of each in inventory, but enough new content was launched in two years I needed 8 and 10 respectively) to having 20 of each.  In another 8 months I earned 40 of each total, despite spending a few.  I went from 0 Nitain to everything built and 388 in inventory.  I could reasonably have started a second or third account, and in my spare time accumulated enough items on them to be at level 20 or better.  On top of this, I was able to grind out enough kavat gene codes to RNG through the random system and get both types while still having enough for Khora and 10 extra if I wanted a furry cat army.

The following was with the Alert system.  What does Nightwave offer in return:

1. Less rewards.  Specifically, those that meter progress.  Read above, but the highlight is reactors, catalysts, nitain, and aura mods.
2. Cosmetics.  12 of the 30 reward tiers are cosmetic.  
3. Slots.  3 total, 2 weapon and 1 warframe.  Over the same period, the additional content added more than doubled this quantity.
4. Mods.  3 mods (remember, only 2 weapon slots) for weapons that largely go unused because they're middle-tier.  Of the mods, 1 seemed to be worth it, because it completely changed how the weapon worked (no complaints with the Penta, just an observation about how "fixing" the launcher means entirely reworking it).
5. A single Umbra forma.
6. Two rewards which had to be consumed to get subsequent standing.  
7. A single Arcane of tier 4.  This is just insulting personally.  It doesn't provide a powerful enough effect to keep, so it floods the market with sane people looking to sell the rare arcane for infinitely more useful platinum.  If we were looking at a fully leveled tier 2 Arcane, or a pack of 3 tier 4 arcanes, it's be an introduction to the system.  As it is, this is not enough to reward, and transparently a call to seek out more.  

 

So, what did I expect given the comments.  First off, getting less rarer items was expected.  If you can choke off the flow of the items most useful to your veterans, while giving them something which on the surface appears to be better, then you've got a transition in economy which benefits the game.  I was also expecting cosmetics to be a primary motivation, because the art department requires less commitment than the gameplay department to push something out.  This is not an insult, but necessary to admit to if you believe DE is optimizing staff time usage in preparation for Railjack.  

What didn't I expect?  The new player experience going to garbage.  I just can't understand how a new player would come into Warframe, and think it's a game to keep playing.  You are thrust against challenges hidden behind huge content walls (sorties, Eidolons, and Profit-taker), the basic power-ups (catalysts, reactors, and auras) now have to either be the only rewards for your efforts or purchased, and worst of all nobody can explain why the veterans using the alert system have oodles of many of these things while you either have to pay for their power or grind for literally weeks to hopefully have the credits and a reward rotation align to get one or two of these things.

 

Nightwave is a disappointment because it's partitioning off the older and newer players.  At some point, unless Nightwave is fixed, it'll be impossible for a new player to do content because it was rolled out to satiate someone two to three orders of magnitude more powerful than you.  If this wasn't apparent with Nightwave, look at the economy fix with PoE.  After the Arcanes were purchased rather than a BP for the Arcane, I found over 100 new arcanes in my inventory.  I can only conjecture DE noted the economy was broken for new players, and to fix it they matched Fortuna and introduced bosses (Thumpers) who drop the resources without the RNG and time sink of fishing.  Those that enjoy it are still welcome, but those strong enough to tackle a boss can get more resources in 10 minutes than others could in hours.

I want Warframe to succeed.  It cannot with what we have now.  Nightwave needs to be retired once this is done, and we need a Nightwave-Alert hybrid.  Cut out the new rewards, move difficult challenges to weekly grinds, and have them reward one unique item per week.  Have daily alerts for substantive resource caches, to push new players onward and get things like Nitain and Tellurium.  Offer 3-4 day medium challenges to get credits, which can be spent to purchase reactors, catalysts, gene codes, and cosmetics (reactors/catalysts requiring 2 rewards, cosmetics requiring 0.5-1 rewards, and Kavat codes requiring .75-1 rewards).  In this way you have a substantive grind for the old players, capped by timing.  Middle players can get rewards, but if they don't they aren't penalized.  New players are shown "huge" reward caches, and a progression path to get the power they want.  Once they have the basics down, it's not a penalty to miss something so much as a challenge to do better next time to be rewarded as such. 

 

 

Paragraphs above can be simplified as the following.  Nightwave is an interesting experiment, but largely a failure.  You replaced alerts, without the most basic economic comparison between the two.  Nightwave fails new players, and should be replaced and refined to include elements of the alert system.  Please, stop copying other people's systems (battle pass) without understanding why what exists works.  Most importantly, don't hide behind the assertion this is a personal attack or hate for DE. 

If we hated you, I simply would leave the game forever.  The hate I have for Origin and EA has led me to not buying anything from them since Mass Effect 2.  I left a single review on their game saying that day 1 DLC for a single player game was unacceptable.  That was a no effort piece of feedback before terminating the relationship.  You've warranted multiple painfully long posts, trying to explain how your consumers see you.  Take the hints, and please be better.  Otherwise, I don't think this game will last long enough for the majority of players to obtain a Mastery Rank of 30.

[Marine027]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

If you can't afford enough wolf creds to buy a single item at the end of the 10+ weeks, you really won't be losing out on anything. Or was there something that you thought they were going to offer for 1000 creds? 

In other news, what you thought was a piece of the sky that had fallen was really just an acorn. 🙄

New players who started in between? New players who not know better as said like Nitain or Catalysts?

Also as masterofdetiny stated afterward.

vor 57 Minuten schrieb masterofdetiny:

Objectively, you get 250 credits for levels 0-30, and 15 credits thereafter.  The new items on offer are:

1. Tonkor Desert camo skin - 30 credits
2. Atterax Desert camo skin - 30 credits
3. Marelok Desert camo skin - 30 credits
4. Grinlok Desert camo skin - 30 credits
5. Hek Desert camo skin - 30 credits
6. Karak Desert camo skin - 30 credits
7.  Saturn Six Ornament - 40 credits

To those not counting, that's 220 credits.  Those veterans have 30 credits left, until they have to grind.  No Reactor or Catalyst, until you've ground through at least 3 additional levels of the event.  Even then, one in 10 weeks is less rewarding that the random invasions have been for me over the same time. 

The things is not missing out anything but how unfriendly it is for new players buddy, the design is simply very worse then alerts in my eyes.

I simply still not see why we couldn't keep both, Alerts for like cosmetics, nitain, auras, etc. and Nightwave a additional way to get things.

Catalysts and Reactors are nice but they distract new players due there high pricing, look at auras prices increased due limiting you to buy them from nightwave isntead of people able ot get them still random and due that you can buy several catalysts and reactors if you sell the auras instead. The whole system is just flawed and needs improvment, we critic this simply because its flawed and not glorify it so it never changes again like most things DE sadly dropped.

I love DE and Warframe but some of there decisions are questionable lately again simply. AGAIN its not about affording them, i have all wolf creds to and got all i wanted, but its new player unfriendly again desptie them stating it was supposed to replace alerts for new players to be better. So please, don't defend it and say its ok jsut because SOME were able to do all, not everyone has that time and we want to do other things in between aswell, not focus on Nightwave all day.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Marine027

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, masterofdetiny said:

Objectively, you get 250 credits for levels 0-30, and 15 credits thereafter.

LOL. No. 

Want to try again? Because it impacts on the rest of your math and assertions. 

22 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

New players who started in between? New players who not know better as said like Nitain or Catalysts?

Again, it should be possible for newer players to get roughly 50 creds per week from the lower tiers. The third week is a forma bundle (normally costs plat) and the 4th is 50 creds and a potato. In the same time there should have probably been another potato as a Gift of the Lotus. A veteran might be able to get through to that point in maybe 3 weeks. 

Again if you are talking about someone so new that the can't complete any challenges, then you are dealing with a player who will not benefit and their focus is probably better spent elsewhere so that they can be better prepared for the next nightwave. Of course that level of player probably won't benefit from the majority of things on offer in the shop anyway, so we can pull all of the cosmetics out of the equation as well. 

Now, I've said repeatedly, I would like to see the costs rebalanced for the newbs, but that's not going to help someone who literally can't even begin to do the first thing. 

22 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Also as masterofdetiny stated afterward.

Bad news, mate. The very first line is wrong. After that, it's all error carried forward isn't it? 

 

[(XBOX)Sir Dwar]

25 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

New players who started in atalysts and Reactors are nise but they distract new players due there high pricing, look at auras prices increased and due taht you can buy several catalysts and reactors if you sell the auras instead.

Can you clarify what you mean? It sounds loke you're saying that buying aura mods and selling them for platinum, and then using that platinum to buy reactors from the market is a better value than just buying potatoes with credits. That's... weird. Why aren't the people spending platinum on auras using wolfcred instead?

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, masterofdetiny said:

Please, stop copying other people's systems (battle pass) without understanding why what exists works.

This - and bolded for emphasis.

This applies to everything that DE wants to add to Warframe that they've seen in other games and feel looks cool - such as "juggling" enemies. What works in game x won't necessarily work for game y without an understanding as to why it works.

1 hour ago, masterofdetiny said:

Most importantly, don't hide behind the assertion this is a personal attack or hate for DE. 

Sadly, backlash to helpful criticism is going to happen. There's always going to be some irrational fan boy / white knight that will not tolerate any kind of constructive criticism of the game they love. If you ask me, if they truly loved the game, they'd welcome well thought out changes that are focused on improving the quality and life of said game.

With regard to Chore Wave Night Wave, no...it arguably hasn't improved the player experience much. Yanking out regular Alerts was arguably a needlessly heavy-handed action that hurts newer players and those that simply don't have the time to invest in Night Wave. That being said, I've yet to see one convincing, rational argument as why normal alerts and Night Wave - even with a little tinkering - can't co-exist.

Edited April 14, 2019 by MirageKnight

[(XBOX)Sir Dwar]

9 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

This - and bolded for emphasis.

This applies to everything that DE wants to add to Warframe that they've seen in other games and feel looks cool - such as "juggling" enemies. What works in game x won't necessarily work for game y without an understanding as to why it works.

Sadly, backlash to helpful criticism is going to happen. There's always going to be some irrational fan boy / white knight that will not tolerate any kind of constructive criticism of the game they love. If you ask me, if they truly loved the game, they'd welcome well thought out changes that are focused on improving the quality and life of said game.

With regard to Chore Wave Night Wave, no...it arguably hasn't improved the player experience much. Yanking out regular Alerts was arguably a needlessly heavy-handed action that hurts newer players and those that simply don't have the time to invest in Night Wave. That being said, I've yet to see one convincing, rational argument as why normal alerts and Night Wave - even with a little tinkering - can't co-exist.

Yeah. Nightwave has potential, but the origin system doesn't feel as alive without the regular calls for help alerts represented, and I still miss the little resource rewards.

Edited April 14, 2019 by (XB1)Sir Dwar

[master_of_destiny]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

LOL. No. 

Want to try again? Because it impacts on the rest of your math and assertions. 

Again, it should be possible for newer players to get roughly 50 creds per week from the lower tiers. The third week is a forma bundle (normally costs plat) and the 4th is 50 creds and a potato. In the same time there should have probably been another potato as a Gift of the Lotus. A veteran might be able to get through to that point in maybe 3 weeks. 

Again if you are talking about someone so new that the can't complete any challenges, then you are dealing with a player who will not benefit and their focus is probably better spent elsewhere so that they can be better prepared for the next nightwave. Of course that level of player probably won't benefit from the majority of things on offer in the shop anyway, so we can pull all of the cosmetics out of the equation as well. 

Now, I've said repeatedly, I would like to see the costs rebalanced for the newbs, but that's not going to help someone who literally can't even begin to do the first thing. 

Bad news, mate. The very first line is wrong. After that, it's all error carried forward isn't it? 

 

You are more dense than the average neutron star.

 

As a correction, I missed one reward.  There are in fact 300 wolf credits from 1-30.  The only change is you have 80 credits rather than 30.  You discredit everything because of a single error in the math.  And because you'd get a single reactor/catalyst from the error (again, assuming you need nothing else).

By that logic, allow me to demonstrate that you are incompetent.  Reward =/= Requirement for next Reward.  If you pay $10 to get into a club, get six fun bucks to spend at the bar, and discover that the music in the club is barred by another bouncer, asking for another $10 (but giving you the ability to spend your fun bucks as if they were half the value of real currency) you wouldn't call the fun bucks a reward.  I provide this example because apparently the reward system in game has done a fine job obfuscating the rewards and costs (though you'll likely misconstrue this and call it different and therefore not capable of being equated. 

 

You repeatedly say that it needs rebalanced, then admonish anyone saying the same.  It's Schrodinger's reward system with you.  Perhaps add something to the conversation.  If you can't, but want to show you are better than everyone else because they must be wrong, then you aren't adding to the conversation.  You're in the midst of a filibuster, with you being the one person who must be right, despite admitting that you aren't, but everybody else is wrong.

 

From this point forward, consider me not speaking to you.  I'm sure that the above will be countered with a single quote where you said something else, ignoring the next three which changed your position later.  I can't afford you time, because you believe everyone is an idiot.  Perhaps when you put on your big boy (or girl) pants, and walk to the table with something other than "I've had every point so I must be right" we can talk.  Until that point, please troll as loudly as possible into the void.  

[bigBiermonster]

As many others have already said, Nightwave is a great idea and represents how far Warframe has come.
It adds tangible goals for players to complete during their normal gameplay, and each tier feels good, reward and progression wise.
As a veteran, Nightwave gives me a reason to play, and some of the rewards feel great - mainly the cosmetics.

With that, I can understand the frustration of newer players, the removal of niatin alerts alone are devastating, I still remember hunting for those for days to craft several items, I have no idea how I would have done it within nightwave, even if you spend all your creds on niatin, it won't be enough for nothing more than a couple of weapons.

Same goes to catalysts and reactors, those alerts were rarer, but they could still give players at least one per week, and now you actually have to choose between potatoes and niatin? I think this might be asking too much of your players.

This game is already confusing (not to say abusive) to new players, which is a shame, because once you pass that mountain you discover a real gem, but I can see how nightwave's reward structure might be burdening new players to the point it can feel as it's too much.

My suggestion? take the best of both worlds - keep nightwave structure as is (a bit more variation in the cred store would be appreciated next round)
BUT, add back daily niatin and the occasional reactor alert.
 
I can understand, design wise. why DE would not want to increase the amount of creds they give out substantially,
but adding back some alerts will allow players to smooth out their progression curve (which, let's face is, is alraedy very grindy),
so they will remain active and happy players.

[MirageKnight]

6 minutes ago, masterofdetiny said:

You are more dense than the average neutron star.

While you might be correct, I'd refrain from using insults. Only serves to undermine an otherwise valid argument and it could get you into trouble.