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Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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1 minute ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Wow, just... wow. You really don't see that there is people in a low MR that is unable to fight him and beat him, right? I'm out of this discusion, it's pointless to try to discuss something with someone who won't see other than their truth.

Yes, I do see that, but I also see that they won't be able to beat Stalker, Zanuka, and The Grustrag 3. So why should Rid$&*^ of Wall Street be a pushover just because you don't want to equip the right gear to face him?
 

Also, you're correct it would be pointless for me to continue this discussion when you can't even admit that you have been wrong several times in this discussion.

run away monty python GIF

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Yes, I do see that, but I also see that they won't be able to beat Stalker, Zanuka, and The Grustrag 3. So why should Rid$&*^ of Wall Street be a pushover just because you don't want to equip the right gear to face him?

Stalker, will escape once you downed, Zanuka and Grustrag Doesn't spawn as long as you keeping distance from invasion missions. (and grustrags activates extraction on spawn)

And most importantly, both of those aren't goddamn bullet sponge.

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1 minute ago, Test-995 said:

Stalker, will escape once you downed, Zanuka and Grustrag Doesn't spawn as long as you keeping distance from invasion missions. (and grustrags activates extraction on spawn)

And most importantly, both of those aren't goddamn bullet sponge.

Wolf escapes when everyone is downed too. And when you're MR0 they are bullet sponges.

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10 minutes ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Wow, just... wow. You really don't see that there is people in a low MR that is unable to fight him and beat him, right? I'm out of this discusion, it's pointless to try to discuss something with someone who won't see other than their truth.

Ummmm, why should they be able too? There is no reason what so ever for a low MR to be able to kill the Wolf.  Just as there is no reason for a low MR to be able to kill Stalker, Grustrag 3, or Zanuka.  They just don't have the mods needed for their gear to effectively fight them.  Also, rarely do any of these enemies appear on low level areas unless a higher player is present also.  Meaning that once that low MR player reaches the point where they can meet those enemies, they are no longer considered to be low MR (lower than MR 7).  

I'm just confused at the reasoning that low Mr should be able to beat Wolf.  That's like saying P-51 Mustang should be able to beat a F-22 Raptor.  😄  

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Wolf escapes when everyone is downed too. And when you're MR0 they are bullet sponges.

Oh it's nice i didn't know that.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Ummmm, why should they be able too? There is no reason what so ever for a low MR to be able to kill the Wolf.  Just as there is no reason for a low MR to be able to kill Stalker, Grustrag 3, or Zanuka.  They just don't have the mods needed for their gear to effectively fight them.  Also, rarely do any of these enemies appear on low level areas unless a higher player is present also.  Meaning that once that low MR player reaches the point where they can meet those enemies, they are no longer considered to be low MR (lower than MR 7).  

I'm just confused at the reasoning that low Mr should be able to beat Wolf.  That's like saying P-51 Mustang should be able to beat a F-22 Raptor.  😄  

Exactly, nobody is saying that the low MR should be able to beat Wolf. We're saying that Wolf shouldn't appear on a mission full of low MR players because they won't be able to fight him. That's why people is asking for a different way of spawning him and saying that the way it is now, it's poor game design.

The stalker will only appear after a certain point. And Zanuka and G3 will only appear under certain conditions and, most importantly, will activate the extraction as soon as they appear. On top of that, they are nowhere near as hard to kill as Wolf and, in case of the stalker (which won't activate extraction on spawn) will leave you alone the moment he kills you once.

With the Wolf none of this happens. And he can appear in any mission to any player.

5 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Oh it's nice i didn't know that. 

No, he doesn't. Just suffered him on hydron a few hours ago and he didn't go. Either if it's a bug or intended, IDK, but he doesn't escape after everyone is downed. Reason why most people will leave the game when he spawns.

Edited by (NSW)Belaptir
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Well, it seems to me that you are assuming that the design goals actually was that players should achieve rank 30, but that is absurd.

Reaching rank 30 is easily possible for most, if not all players (since even a MR0 starting the 1st week could do it).

Reaching rank 30 by skipping a lot of challenges, by just not doing them or not playing Warframe, why should that even be possible? This is the "entitlement syndrome" I was referring to, the idea that the game should be adapted to your personal life, needs, wants and feelings outside the game. The idea that while your decisions and real life impacts when, how much and what you can play (and of course they do), you should still be "entitled" to reach rank 30, and since you will not or cannot do what actually needs to be done it is the game that should be fixed and adapted instead. This way of thinking (if it is "thinking") feels completely absurd to me, it really does.

I have my own "feelings" about Nightwave, I would like the 1 hour challenges back (I think they were the best part), I want the "forced friending" to stay gone forever (on principle) and I am deeply disappointed that Prestige ranks only gives 15 Wolf credits, because what is on offer in the Wolf store is not stuff I want or need (just put Forma on offer, and I would be ok with it, because, well, you ALWAYS need more Forma). Or something really good and insanely expensive that you splurge all Wolf credits on.

But I do not feel that I am entitled to such things, or that Nightwave (as a concept) sucks because of this, and I do not write mopy "I will stop playing unless DE does what I want"-comments because of this. And it is not about "me", I really think a few better shop items costing mucho credits and worth grinding for would improve Nightwave for ALL players, I think that doing the 1 hour missions is good and exciting for A LOT of players (many, many players had never done anything like a 1hr survival at that level without being able to use life support modules). I think the FOMO stress was both unnecessary and stupid (since it generated a lot more stress than anticipation or excitement). I also think 10 weeks is a bit too long, especially since those "into this" clears most challenges during the first 24 hrs, which leads to the rest of the week actually being more empty than before (alert-wise). And staying invested for 2,5 months, that's a LOOONG time. However, overall I think that putting alerts in a larger concept is a great idea, and that this 1st try is quite good, but could become even better. And that the one thing that could actually destroy this is the "me, me, me, warframe should be all about me"-gripe, which DE unfortunately occasionally listens to.

EDIT: I forgot this little bit at the start: The whole Rank 30 is for everyone thing is mainly based on the fact that every rank beyond that is considered "Prestige", or above and beyond the normal achievable rank (that's why it's prestige, and the others aren't) and I hold DE to that, because people are holding DE's wording to the flames regarding Acts as "Challenges" and the expected difficulty expected of "Elite" challenges, and such.

The other reason, is the whole 60% thing that everyone likes to say is all you need, was supposed to allay fears of missing out... you don't NEED to do more than 60% to get everything important from the event... that's the overall feel I personally get from the source of that figure. (from DE mostly, but also from the people perpetuating it.) "Everyone" should be able to do AT LEAST that much... (and players tacked on the feelings and insinuations: "like, really, how little do you play this game? Do you even like it? Come on.")

(the rest un-edited)

Design Goals:

 

A few quotes to make the points easier to find:

Quote

- Random Alerts are going away and have been replaced with a Rotation of rewards within Nora's Cred Offerings. This allows players to plan, prioritize and access content for free that previously relied on 'right time, right place' often within a 60 minute window.

- Old mission XP challenges from within single missions are going away - replaced with Nora's challenges that persist throughout multiple missions and have more substantial reward. Old mission XP challenges rewarded one thing: Affinity in a mission. Now by completing Nora's broader challenges, called Acts, you can unlock different rewards by simply playing the game with these new challenges in mind.

 

 

 

Quote

 

What the current system lacks: 

  • Reliability: Missing a time limited mission with an Alert-only reward means waiting for it to rotate back into the live Alerts, at which time you may not be available (work, school, walking the dog, sleep, you know, the important stuff!). 
    • Creates roadblocks to earning some of the essentials for new players (ex: Aura Mods), and general required crafting resources (ex: Nitain). 
    • This has also created dependencies on the Warframe Alerts Twitter accounts and other third party apps that track Alert status that pulls you out of the game. 
  • Clutter: Just scroll the @WarframeAlerts feed... Credits. Credits. Credits. Credits. 
  • Challenge/Variety: For players with resource, weapon, and Credit abundances, etc. the Alerts tend to fall in the “if needed” category and are mostly overshadowed by Sorties as they offer more level appropriate missions and rewards. Alert difficulty levels are also  random, so while active Alerts may offer needed rewards, the mission required to earning them may not be of interest.    
  • Fun-Factor/Narrative: "Tenno, there is a time-limited mission Alert available. Check navigation." said the Lotus. 

 

Reliability:

Subgoals:

We want to eradicate the “snooze (literally) you lose” system we have now and give the freedom to choose the rewards you want/need from the current Alert system (and more down the road!) in a more reliable and predictable format. No more Twitter feeds, no more “wrong time wrong place” - it will all be housed under the Nightwave roof. 

* "Remove 'Snooze, you lose' / 'Right time, right place'"
* Make it possible for people with jobs/etc to get Alert offerings through progressive effort instead of RNG ("plan, prioritize and access content"):

They just moved this issue to a rotating Cred Shop. If the item you want appears during the first week of the 10 week event when you don't have enough time to play to get the first wolf cred reward package, and it doesn't show up again in the rotations for the next 10 weeks, and you didn't have enough cred in that first week, and you save enough creds for that one item every week, hoping upon hopes that it shows up again (RNG) - planning and prioritizing - you may just end up wasting those creds buying something you don't need in the last week of the event just to get "something" from it - because Creds EXPIRE and you can't plan ahead for a random shop selection! (this could also be the case if you get tired of waiting for the item to appear in the shop and spend all your cred on other stuff that is currently in the shop, and then the next week it finally shows up... sorry.)

This was also exasperated by the 10 week time period of the event with limited selection of challenges available per week imposing a cap on standing per week, and the only possible make-up mechanic being hunting down the fugitives to make up lost standing. If you start too late in the series, or miss out on too many challenges each week (for a variety of reasons, some player choice, some out of their hands) sorry, you 'snooze, you lose' on some of the items with the biggest draw to the new event, I mean syndicate, I mean, core game system, that are of any real value to people that already have the stuff in the cred shop ("exclusive" or otherwise hard to obtain standing rank-up rewards at ranks 25, 28,29,30).

People with limited time to play and want to make that "progressive effort" rather than RNG for a quick mission, now have to spend a large chunk of that limited time "simply playing the game with these new challenges in mind." - which boils down in practice, to doing a list of chores that may or may not be fun or beneficial to them, and in some cases, is far from what they would be doing on their own agenda of 'simply playing the game.'

 

Clutter:

Never bothered me.

It doesn't need to be on my orbiter's navigation "decoration" like a wall of text... their choice of presentation could be changed. Calling a long list of potential activities clutter... sure, that's one word for it... not one I'd use.

 

Challenge/Variety:

"Challenge/Variety: For players with resource, weapon, and Credit abundances, etc. the Alerts tend to fall in the “if needed” category and are mostly overshadowed by Sorties as they offer more level appropriate missions and rewards. Alert difficulty levels are also  random, so while active Alerts may offer needed rewards, the mission required to earning them may not be of interest."

I'm sorry, but did they read this before they posted it? It kinda makes its own point against itself, knowing what replaced Alerts. They say... "so while active Alerts may offer needed rewards" (in Nightwave, read: either Nightwave rank rewards or Cred shop rewards) "the mission required to earning them may not be of interest." (read: Nightwave acts/challenges that are basically chores that people don't want to be forced to do...)

Good Fix! I mean, I don't want to sound harsh, but the reality is that it didn't fulfill this design goal. Problem remains. And "challenge" was never the problem with Alerts. People didn't seek Alerts for their daily dose of warframe challenge... that was Sorties, Nightmare missions, Sanctuary Onslaught, and the like.

The whole "if needed" part was one of the BENEFITS of the Alert system. If a good alert popped up that had something you wanted, BONUS, you run a mission and get that thing. If you didn't care about the alert, you could skip it without a second thought - the rewards cycled through on a fairly fast schedule - even if you wanted the thing and the mission type was unappealing, you could safely skip the interception, and wait for the reward to come back in a mission type you like. If you didn't need the rewards, what harm was there in the alert's existence for people who did need it?

Prior to Nightwave, playing warframe could be done at your own pace, doing what you wanted to do, to have fun - in a variety of activities ... if variety was what you were after you could do star chart nodes, open world stuff, fishing, mining, spy vaults, exterminates, boss assassinations - but grinding the same thing over and over (farming) can be fun, or this game would be in real trouble... Variety wasn't a problem innate to alerts, requiring its replacement by Nightwave.

That is, variety wasn't a problem unless you were a person who found it difficult to self-motivate and create your own goals, or figure out a variety of ways to accomplish them, I guess... but then, why did Alerts need to die to give them a list of chores? They could potentially co-exist.

 

Fun-Factor/Narrative:

Totally missed the mark on Fun-Factor, IMO, and many others' opinions... (Of course, fun is subjective, and some liked the 1hr survival stuff) however, Challenges/Acts are totally disconnected from the narrative. Nora randomly "rewards"/Incentivizes "good deeds" ... (each week rewarded for different things - suddenly one week they're worthy of reward, the next? nope, that's not a good deed this week) (which can include using a certain damage type to kill enemies or using forma to enhance our weapons... oh, why are you incentivizing these actions again? How is enhancing our weapons a good deed worthy of reward? Dis Connec Ted.)

The old "narrative" of "Tenno, there is a time-limited mission Alert available. Check navigation." said the Lotus.
Actually... this felt more connected to me, because they felt like Ninja contracts that we mercenaries could accept or ignore. Finishing a contract gave us our pay that we could see up front and decide if it was worth our time or not.

 

 

I presented my most thought-out version of a possible merging of Alerts and Nightwave as a response to this thread, thus connecting the narrative:

I'll copy/paste it here to keep this all together:

Alerts WITH Nightwave (Changes to incorporate both)

Nightwave now has Nightwave Alerts (originally I thought Fugitive Alerts, but this is keeping it non-themed to work with future seasons)
(Nora is broadcasting gossip and locations of fugitives and possible activities of these groups that are up to no good, so we Tenno can hear her and act on it if we so desire)

Now, we get an alert that there's a group of fugitives doing X on planet X. Sure would be nice if some kind Tenno stopped them. Or maybe the Corpus or Grineer have information about the whereabouts of the Wolf, but they're not in a sharing mood...
(I've listed a few other options in other posts, making use of Capture, Spy, Mobile Defense, etc, as mission objectives themed to the series. Nora would take over for the Lotus/Ordtus messages.)

3 of these Nightwave Alerts would need to be completed in "chains" (like Invasions and Sorties), opening up a Wolf Assassination Alert OR access to a Wolf Beacon in the Cred Shop.
There could be 3 main types of Nightwave Alert Chains:
* Acts of Kindness, Acts of Defiance, Acts of Generosity...

Some of the Acts of Kindness and Generosity could be new Alert types based loosely on current "challenges", focused on non-combat objectives (Mining, Fishing, opening lockers, finding mods), while Acts of Defiance are mostly the tried and true common mission types we all know.

These alerts could have rare resource rewards as extra briber... I mean incentives... Nora likes incentivizing. (these would be ALL the things the old Alerts used to reward - resources, credits - in larger amounts - , cosmetics, blueprints, mods - including the things Nightwave now has in its shop, the shop stays as an RNG equalizer, just in case schedules don't work out - though, with the next changes, even that seems unnecessary, but it doesn't hurt to have more options!)

Nightwave Alerts with their "incentives" would stay active for at least 6hrs, up to 12-24hrs before the "incentives" and/or objectives change. (While rare resources and credits could be offered for the minimum 6hrs, there could be a Capture for 12hrs with an Orokin Catalyst incentive, changing to an Interception for the same catalyst for the next 12hrs - or quicker 20min-1hr objective changes (like invasion mission types change every so often) to bring back the old alert rotation feel, while keeping the "Incentive" the same the whole time so you have all that time to run a mission to get it.

Now, it doesn't matter so much WHEN the Alert appears that you've been waiting for... no waking up in the middle of the night to catch the 20minute-2hr window. I'd even propose a way to "tag" an alert as "accepted" and that would stop it from disappearing until you run it. This "tagging" would be possible from in game, or the app or the official website, so people at work or on schedules that fall even outside of these generous windows still wouldn't miss out.)
Once a Wolf Assassination Alert has been unlocked, a new Nightwave Alert chain can open, letting people choose to go after the wolf, or ignore him. This would open up targeted farming of the Wolf and his sledge weapon parts drops.

* Nightwave Alerts would always contain Fugitives (or the series' currently theme'd enemy)
* Non-nightwave missions would never contain Fugitives or the Wolf.

This would let people gear up for the battles specifically, or put on low stuff to rank up, making the best use of their affinity gaining time, rather than having max weapons on hand "Just in case" the big bad Wolf shows up to ruin their day.

Nightwave Alerts would reward Wave-Cred. (not Event-styled ranks - prices in the shop would have to be rebalanced or give the shop a stock that limits purchases during each "series" and "re-stocks" when the event would have previously reset to a new series.)

Wave Cred would not expire. (steady progression at your own pace, even if RNG doesn't favor you with the above alert changes. This only really makes the "Series" restocked items obtainable day-one of each series, with evergreen rewards being the primary cred-sink.)

Nightwave Shop would not rotate. (no snooze you lose, not having enough credits when the item is in the shop and not returning before the event ends, wiping out your creds that you were saving just to get that thing. All items in the shop would be available all the time (though some would have limited supply, resetting as stated above))

One forgotten benefit of Alerts lost with Nightwave: Alerts used to be a way to find a quick PUG all doing the same nodes. That's only really the home of Invasions now. (I only ever really PUG'd for reactors/catalysts in Interception or Archwing missions, but others PUG all day...) If they push the Stalker mode syndicate into the game, they're going to want people PUG'ing so there are opt-in parties to invade...

 

There ya go, Alert system fixed, Nightwave system fixe... better.

Most current Nightwave "Challenges" would be moved to the master of sadisti... condescendi... demandi... um... Challenges... Cephalon Simaris studying the limits of Tenno prowess, and the Arbitrary Arbiters in their Arbitrations that just scream to be the handers-out of obscure ordeals and self-righteously judging the efforts of the Tenno and their merit of reward.

~*~

Still considering how to work in the Nightwave standing reward ladder. It's so much more "event-like" rather than "core game system", that it's difficult.

I'd rather not see the tiers locked behind Wolf kills. The "Nightwave Alerts" could provide standing as well as cred.

 

I'll keep thinking about it, and post/edit at some point. It's late (after midnight now (as of the time of writing this in the original post).)

Edited by (PS4)AyinDygra
Design goal of rank 30 at the start. I could go dig up the quotes and clips from Dev streams, but, nah.
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2 minutes ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

No, he doesn't. Just suffered him on hydron a few hours ago and he didn't go. Either if it's a bug or intended, IDK, but he doesn't escape after everyone is downed. Reason why most people will leave the game when he spawns.

He did with me, as soon as he killed me once, him and his 3 fugitive buddies left. I'd say someone got revived before everyone died, or Everyone wasn't dead at the same time.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

No, he doesn't. Just suffered him on hydron a few hours ago and he didn't go. Either if it's a bug or intended, IDK, but he doesn't escape after everyone is downed. Reason why most people will leave the game when he spawns.

How the hell did he beat every one on Hydron.  I just fought him yesterday and I saw just how nerfed he was compared to the other 7-9 times I've faced him.  it was just me playing a freshly forma'd Garuda using the Hema and one other player using Volt.  

Edited by DatDarkOne

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1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

How the hell did he beat every one on Hydron.  I just fought him yesterday and I saw just how nerfed he was compared to the other 7-9 times I've faced him.  

Console hasn’t gotten the nerf yet- just wanted to put that in there.

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1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

How the hell did he beat every one on Hydron.  I just fought him yesterday and I saw just how nerfed he was compared to the other 7-9 times I've faced him.  

On console we are behind pc players in terms of updates. Right now, he's as tanky as the first day for us.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)corpusbonds said:

Console hasn’t gotten the nerf yet- just wanted to put that in there.

 

Just now, (NSW)Belaptir said:

On console we are behind pc players in terms of updates. Right now, he's as tanky as the first day for us.

Then it seems that the problem has been resolved already and you guys will see the benefits on the next update.   There really isn't a need to continue this anymore now is it.  

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1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

 

Then it seems that the problem has been resolved already and you guys will see the benefits on the next update.   There really isn't a need to continue this anymore now is it.  

Let's hope we get that nerf in the next update (we won't get the last 24.7.1 but something around 24.6 iirc). It's good to know that, contrary to many people's beliefs, they are paying attention to this thread.

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4 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

 

Then it seems that the problem has been resolved already and you guys will see the benefits on the next update.   There really isn't a need to continue this anymore now is it.  

I wasn’t continuing anything, I just wanted to put that in there lol.

 He’s ok for me to deal with, when he comes out. I’m more worried about getting his last piece (ignoring the mask for now of course).

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My 2 cents on the nightwave and umbra forma debacle

Nightwave is an incredible addition to the game, it gives new players an absolutely needed extra boost, at the same time as acting like an extra added bonus reward for everyone playing the game and doing various things. It also has the potential to diversify gameplay for many players who otherwise might get bogged down doing a singular type of mission all the time without even thinking about it. It has all these fantastic positive things about it. But for anyone who feels compelled and a very strong drive for absolute completion, it turns into something quite the reverse, a nasty 10 week scheduled chore-list.

So it all comes down to the way people view the rewards of the nightwave. When I look at the current reward pool I only feel like 1 items is unmissable, you guessed it. The umbra forma. This is not to say that I might not feel otherwise during other weeks if there is better cosmetic/emote rewards. Then I would feel a strong compelling reason to enter into this torturous 10 weeks of chores again.

I think of many good ways to fix this. The mods being tradable is an absolutely positive and important factor. If the umbra forma was tradable this would be a plus, but it wouldn't solve the underlying problem. If you make for example, the wolf credits able to buy the later rewards without having to participate for the whole 30 ranks, that would make things a lot better. You might also enable some kind of shop where you can buy earlier rewards from previous nightwave events for double the price of wolf credits, so nobody feels left out who wasn't playing the game earlier.

I am sure you can figure it out, but PLEASE don't try to use the umbral forma as a way to force players to play a ton of chores every week just to not get left out of having immeasurably powerful warframes, it's just evil.

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4 hours ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

oh my god wtf GIF

So out of curiosity, what here did you not understand that required you to respond with a meme instead of an actual response that this isnt an exact replica of your arguments made manifest.

If your unable to fight this thing tough, your screwed & its all the players fault for not being prepared & hpw we should quit whining about how all we want is to be entitled to a win, how is that difficult to grasp out of there?

Whatever the case you've stated yours & frankly, ill never get the meme generation, anyway.

Glad to hear this thing has a nerf coming, wouldve been fine with giving us a reason to fight the bastard over a nerf but as per DEs usual M.O take the easy road instead of a creative one.

If this meatsack could have a good chance dropping a glut of wolf creds & rep points or even a .01 chance for an umbra forma or some other highly sought reward people would actively fight even the burly bugger we have now & the fight would be worth it. Hell Rep alone might have been enough, say 3k per downing of the wolf & hos pack, that could go a long way to easing some of the NW jitters people have about getting enough rep in time for those goodies.

And ive never had the wolf just vanish after everyone died, ever, if there were indeed a way for him to vanish in that event or over a period of time I would easily retract EVERY argument, save the pathetic rewards table he has, that I have had about the Wolfs difficulty, as it is, I have yet to see him move on & the thing just hangs around the mission like a spawn camper in PVP games.

 

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4 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

EDIT: I forgot this little bit at the start: The whole Rank 30 is for everyone thing is mainly based on the fact that every rank beyond that is considered "Prestige", or above and beyond the normal achievable rank (that's why it's prestige, and the others aren't) and I hold DE to that, because people are holding DE's wording to the flames regarding Acts as "Challenges" and the expected difficulty expected of "Elite" challenges, and such.

The other reason, is the whole 60% thing that everyone likes to say is all you need, was supposed to allay fears of missing out... you don't NEED to do more than 60% to get everything important from the event... that's the overall feel I personally get from the source of that figure. (from DE mostly, but also from the people perpetuating it.) "Everyone" should be able to do AT LEAST that much... (and players tacked on the feelings and insinuations: "like, really, how little do you play this game? Do you even like it? Come on.")

Impressively long post. However, nowhere has DE stated that everyone should be able to get to tier 30 (though it actually is possible for everyone), or even that tier 30 is "the goal". Neither is it stated anywhere that players are even meant to max Wolf credits or Prestige credits. And of course that is as it should be, like before you have to invest game time and effort to get your rewards (ever had you phone waking you every 6-7 hours because you desperately needed to get nitain and an alert became active?). The opposite is also true, if you do NOT invest enough effort and time, you won't max your rewards.

As to getting helmets, catalysts & aura mods etc., before you either had to be luckily online when the helmet or mod was the reward for an alert, or have the phone app and check every "pling", and then log on (within an hour) to do the alert. Now you can gather Wolf credits over ten week by doing the missions you want, whenever you want. That daily missions times out in three days and the rest in a week makes the drops (and alert challenges) enormously more available than before (which DE also points out several times). You can now choose and pick, which becomes more important the more stuff you already have. Think about the chance of getting the last aura mod or helmet you want as the random reward for the old alerts...

The difference is, however, that you can now also see all the things you can buy, whereas before every alert (except nitain) felt like a random drop of manna from heaven. This has obviously kicked the "want"-factor to new heights. An example: it is probably possible to collect all aura mods faster now than before (when they appeared semi-randomly as rewards now and then), and it is decidedly faster to get just the aura mods you want. This is of course a (very) good thing, especially for "starmappers" that doesn't have them yet. But paradoxically it is experienced as "a bad thing", due to the psychological reasons behind not being able to get your hands on ALL that you want. And some players want it all, and feel entitled to get it, even while not even being willing to gather the maximum amount of credits available. They feel entitled to get more for less, and the gripe from this viewpoint is...  ... extensive.

The other psycho-paradox linked to this is that if DE had put only half of the stuff on display in the shop, or rotated in a fourth of merchandise every week and had a "weekly" Wolf credits standing award, the feeling of "missing out" (and "wanting more") would be less, and thus the gripe and the complaints would be less. Even if the situation for the player has actually become worse, with less options to choose from. The human mind, go figure...

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Posted (edited)
vor 14 Stunden schrieb Graavarg:

Impressively long post. However, nowhere has DE stated that everyone should be able to get to tier 30 (though it actually is possible for everyone), or even that tier 30 is "the goal". Neither is it stated anywhere that players are even meant to max Wolf credits or Prestige credits. And of course that is as it should be, like before you have to invest game time and effort to get your rewards (ever had you phone waking you every 6-7 hours because you desperately needed to get nitain and an alert became active?). The opposite is also true, if you do NOT invest enough effort and time, you won't max your rewards.

As to getting helmets, catalysts & aura mods etc., before you either had to be luckily online when the helmet or mod was the reward for an alert, or have the phone app and check every "pling", and then log on (within an hour) to do the alert. Now you can gather Wolf credits over ten week by doing the missions you want, whenever you want. That daily missions times out in three days and the rest in a week makes the drops (and alert challenges) enormously more available than before (which DE also points out several times). You can now choose and pick, which becomes more important the more stuff you already have. Think about the chance of getting the last aura mod or helmet you want as the random reward for the old alerts...

The difference is, however, that you can now also see all the things you can buy, whereas before every alert (except nitain) felt like a random drop of manna from heaven. This has obviously kicked the "want"-factor to new heights. An example: it is probably possible to collect all aura mods faster now than before (when they appeared semi-randomly as rewards now and then), and it is decidedly faster to get just the aura mods you want. This is of course a (very) good thing, especially for "starmappers" that doesn't have them yet. But paradoxically it is experienced as "a bad thing", due to the psychological reasons behind not being able to get your hands on ALL that you want. And some players want it all, and feel entitled to get it, even while not even being willing to gather the maximum amount of credits available. They feel entitled to get more for less, and the gripe from this viewpoint is...  ... extensive.

The other psycho-paradox linked to this is that if DE had put only half of the stuff on display in the shop, or rotated in a fourth of merchandise every week and had a "weekly" Wolf credits standing award, the feeling of "missing out" (and "wanting more") would be less, and thus the gripe and the complaints would be less. Even if the situation for the player has actually become worse, with less options to choose from. The human mind, go figure...

Yet you can't safe up your Wolf Creds to safe for lets say a Aura you need or Nitain, it is very new player unfriendly that way and new player obviously might go for the most expensive stuff like catalysts and reactors without knowing better.

Alerts were flawed but i still not see why we could not have them along Nightwave simply, people keep acting like Alerts get gloriefied and Nighwave is the devil, both have its flaws and both can be worked on, but it seems easier to remove alerts apperently and THAT is lazy game design, can't fix it, remove it.

And the forums and DE can state as much they want, the info ingame lacks the infos we need, how long does Nightwve go, how far we goten, how much more can we allow us to miss.

Nightwave itself simply presents itself as a forced limited event, it not helps that those kind of events are random to much, Ghouls we get every 2 weeks or so, Theraform Fissures are back already and even its goal reward got saved, while other things like lets say Acolytes come back every two years at best apperently, Warframe is very inconsistent with those kind of events, so no suprise then if people simply start to panic over this.

As said, Nighwave isn't bad, but it can improve and needs to, same for alerts which should come back because complaining about its RNG factor is the same as complainign about RNG at all, and this game is a Farm/Grind/RNG game from the start and always will be still, but its still doable, but we also are open to say how we feel about this kind of things and openly stay critic towards it on the forums as feedback.

There is a difference simply between fun in gamepaly and just a chore to do things like this, Syndicats as example you also can choose and see your goal whenever you attmept to work for it, Nightwave forces you to play in a specific time of the year, it is not just a simple chirstmas event or so.

Edited by Marine027
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Even after the nerf the Wolf is a X#ç§<it fight:

immune to all powers, hits trough the walls and intervening units,utterly ignoring cover and obstacles (also his sliding animation is fugly), his 3 stooges are invulnerable and can oneshot you with their molotov bottles... through the walls!? Just fought the troll and while the stupidly high armor and damage reduction have been reined in, the other stupid aspects of the fight still remain.

It's just a bullet point list of don't do's:

- don't trivialize/ignore/remove player's abilities

- don't make the enemies invulnerable

- no one hit ko's regardles of player level/equipment

- no wall hacks

- no ganking and running

Getting tired of everyone and their dog being immune to warframe abilities in general!

 

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Sorry but I have to disagree, if everything were susceptible to warframe abilities you could stun lock a boss so they couldnt even fight till various DoT & status afflictions finished the boss off, no fight, no threat, just coasting along, while this would be in theory, in application it fails, the difference between Ole wolfy & say a nightmare run of lech Krill or vor, lephantis & so forth, the rewards are worth the effort expended & a challenge is presented that even with random odds of getting what you want, even long odds, like finding the 60/60 mod on nelgar doing the sabotage cache thing, the effort meets with a viable & somewhat reasonable reward for time expended.

The bosses are the stepping stones & should be as they are, a testing ground for the accumulated knowledge & equipment up to that point in the games narrative.

The wolf just drops anytime, anywhere & geared or not is just not worth the time, even making him easier, doesnt make it better if theres no reason to tangle with him & he refuses to leave, like old ganny farts, just hangs about making everyone miserable but unwilling to say anything about it.

Sure you could view him as a boss meant for the higher end MR players, but really? again he doesnt give anything a MR11 or higher player would even have use for short of fluff & personal prestige in a month or so when people start asking where that hammer came from.

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I enjoy the Wolf fights, but there are problems with the event around him overall. He appears both too often, and not enough.

With how powerful the Wolf is, I can see why it would be problematic to have him appear constantly. I've had to limit my gear selection heavily just for this event. Always needing to take a frame with abilities that are actually usable against the Wolf, and at least 1 weapon that is purely damage focused. Though having the sense of danger spices up the every day farming/grinding, he appears too often, as his appearance without the right gear means a wash for the mission. Often enough that variety of gear (one of Warframe's great features) is very limited, since everyone has to deal with him eventually.

With a seasonal type prize system, if the Wolf disappears along with his drops, he also appears not often enough. I've logged about 30 hours each week for the last 2 weeks (according to Steam) and so far, I've only been able to get the blueprint for the hammer. I've been looking for him all weekend, and he hasn't appeared once.

This is like frosting on grilled cheese. While having a difficult and rare fight makes the prizes valued, and having limited time events rewards players who put in the effort, combining these 2 otherwise positive things, leaves a situation of only negative. As problematic as he is, I am trying to find the Wolf. I'm running mission after mission because I want the prize. I've been given a limited amount of time (the current season), and that means I'm being told to do something with urgency. The problem is that we've been given an time limited task, that is also an undefined task. We have no power in progressing to the goal I've been given as there is really nothing to do. This is fine for something like the gear dropped by the Stalker or G3 because they are not time limited. There's no grind them because they will appear eventually. With the Wolf however, we have no control over it. We can't really put in the effort because there's no where to put the effort into, yet with the event limit, effort is being requested. This is a horrible mismatch and created a bad experience overall.

The Wolf himself. This has been a trend for a long time, and this is just another step in the problem. CC frames are dead, and now the Wolf is taking a #2 on their graves. The Wolf is invulnerable to status and abilities. Variety is what makes Warframe great. The Wolf allows for none of that. Rivens were added to help fight there being constant metas, yet the Wolf is forcing us to use specific gear and frames. These are problems that end game players have. For everyone else, they don't even have the choice to play with restricted gear, because they haven't even gotten to the point where they begin to suffer these limits. Instead they just have to let their missions get spoiled.

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This has been covered by other people before, but let me add my voice to it, now that I've had plenty of time to get used to how Nightwave works. Overall, I'm not very happy with the system, but I think it could be fixed, and I trust you folks will figure this out. Here are all the points that I believe need to be addressed in order to make Nightwave a good player experience:

1. Time commitment
Compared to alerts, Nightwave requires a huge time investment for the same rewards. It would have been ok if most of the tasks could be done passively while playing the game, and perhaps you folks have thought they would. This is not the case. It's further compounded by the fact that you only get credits at certain stages, meaning that not only you have to put a lot of time in, you also wait a long time before you feel rewarded. Right now, the economy feels way off. 

2. Player choice
I realize this is a tricky one, because you want that sweet spot of compulsion and freedom. Too much of either, and the game gets annoying or boring. Currently, Nightwave sits way too far on the compulsion side of the spectrum. This would be ok, if it wasn't for the point I brought up above. This means there's very little time left to play the game the way you want, if you also want to complete the Nightwave season. Because Nightwave is temporary in nature, most players will feel obliged to complete it. That's why Nightwave feels like work - activities you may not want to perform but you have to, and once you complete them, you can have your "free time" within the game. Give us more choice when it comes to Nightwave. 

3. Voice transmissions
I like Nora as a character, and would have nothing against her transmissions if I heard them standalone. However, they make for a really jarring experience in game. I'm being my best self because I opened a bunch of lockers? I'm the baddest of badasses because I deployed a glyph? I present to you, talking amongst us, once and future, cringe-ass. You get my point. There is no connection between the task and the content of Nora's comment, nor the scale of her admiration is matched to the scale of difficulty. I don't want to disable all transmissions just to get Nora out of my ears though. I would appreciate hearing Nora if it was better meshed with the gameplay.

4. Lore
I love the fact that you folks bring us more lore. However, it is painfully disconnected from the gameplay and the rest of the universe, and it just doesn't feel right. For most missions and events, the nature of the mission somewhat ties to the story. Ghouls? Purge them. Thermia? Seal it. Alerts? Lotus' operatives are on this mission, help them. Nora telling you stories on the radio? Jump, dance, open lockers, kill whoever you want but in this specific way - what for? Why? How does it help Nora? How does she even know? I feel like the most important part of the story was left out, and it makes the whole thing rather shallow.

I'm leaving Wolf himself out of this, because it's a separate topic in my eyes. I appreciate a new boss, despite his flaws. I don't appreciate his abysmal chances to appear though, but that's not enough for me to dislike the concept.

Looking forward to see how Nightwave evolves in its next iterations.

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Posted (edited)

At the end of night wave can we have a node to assassinate the wolf as maybe a 1 week event or something. End the season with a boss rush maybe something like acolytes but for wolf.

 

Also Nora needs tunes!

Edited by Solarsyphon
Nora needs tunes
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14 hours ago, Marine027 said:

Yet you can't safe up your Wolf Creds to safe for lets say a Aura you need or Nitain, it is very new player unfriendly that way and new player obviously might go for the most expensive stuff like catalysts and reactors without knowing better.

We can't? So... How come so many people have 300 unspent creds right now? 

Are you sure that you didn't just get some bogus information from one of the "sky is falling" crowd? 

3 hours ago, Iludra said:

Compared to alerts, Nightwave requires a huge time investment for the same rewards. It would have been ok if most of the tasks could be done passively while playing the game, and perhaps you folks have thought they would. This is not the case. It's further compounded by the fact that you only get credits at certain stages, meaning that not only you have to put a lot of time in, you also wait a long time before you feel rewarded. Right now, the economy feels way off. 

Uh nightwave is a mix of 2 things one is the alert replacement, the other is an event. For many people each week is between 3 and 4 tiers in a few hours play, and in the early tiers that translates to about 50 creds per week. 

I do agree that the economy does feel way off, and I do hope that it gets a rebalance to favour the newbs, so they can afford more rewards. 

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Posted (edited)
vor 36 Minuten schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

We can't? So... How come so many people have 300 unspent creds right now? 

Are you sure that you didn't just get some bogus information from one of the "sky is falling" crowd?

Cred Offerings StoreEdit

Apart from the ranking rewards, Nightwave also features a Creds Offering store, where players can purchase various items such as Aura Mods and Cosmetics.

During each series of Nightwave, players can earn an exclusive special currency by ranking up, which are then used to purchase the aforementioned Nightwave offerings. Note that after the end of a particular series, this currency will expire and the next Nightwave series will introduce a new currency to spend.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Nightwave

Edited by Marine027
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