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[DE]Bear

Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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Just now, Test-995 said:

Well, that would be just because they can't sell frames on in-game market if they make those tradable, and frame's exclusivity is justified by money.

tbh i don't really care about that, because i don't have to do those, i don't know anything that uses warframe parts except ephemera and frames, and there is no time limit for that, if i can't get that today, i can get that tomorrow, or maybe next year...

And honestly none of those are ridiculous as nightwave is imo, that you have to do 65% of entire warframe content for 10 weeks (it sometime take your things away or take plat) to get a exclusive umbral forma, that is actually useful even if not needed.

While I agree that there could be better ways to lock Umbra Forma without a time gate, iirc Steve did say that it would be recurring and possibly obtainable through other means.

My point still stands that every game will always have rewards locked behind actions you may or may not want to do, (despite having multiple ways to acquire them)

Changes will only come through when the general community consensus is "This is bad and nobody wants to do it" than "This is bad and I don't want to do it". Because I for one, prefer nightwave over old alerts any time. That doesn't mean nightwave is flawless; it means nightwave is better.

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1 minute ago, Cephalycion said:

While I agree that there could be better ways to lock Umbra Forma without a time gate, iirc Steve did say that it would be recurring and possibly obtainable through other means.

My point still stands that every game will always have rewards locked behind actions you may or may not want to do, (despite having multiple ways to acquire them)

Changes will only come through when the general community consensus is "This is bad and nobody wants to do it" than "This is bad and I don't want to do it". Because I for one, prefer nightwave over old alerts any time. That doesn't mean nightwave is flawless; it means nightwave is better.

Oh yes nightwave is better as system itself, only bad thing is bunch of challenges (or maybe entire idea of challenges itself) and credit scarcity and maybe wolf spawn rate.

i know that umbral forma will came with other things, but don't know when or how, but since it is consumable and i can pretend it to be extremely rare, i'll miss one umbral forma if i didn't reach the rank 29 anyways.

 "we shouldn't have to do what we don't want to do in warframe" might be more straightforward then, just because warframe wasn't that kind of game in my experience.

So i'm saying that the nightwave forces us(someone who likes less than 60% content of warframe) to do things we don't want to do, and this is bad, but since i can't know other people's mind, i'm just saying my opinion for myself.

I can't really understand point of "community consensus" thing, is that a advice that i should say "This is bad nobody wants to do it" instead of "This is bad i don't want to do it"? or you are saying that my opinion is nothing and doesn't influence warframe just because you like the nightwave?

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Oh yes nightwave is better as system itself, only bad thing is bunch of challenges (or maybe entire idea of challenges itself) and credit scarcity and maybe wolf spawn rate.

i know that umbral forma will came with other things, but don't know when or how, but since it is consumable and i can pretend it to be extremely rare, i'll miss one umbral forma if i didn't reach the rank 29 anyways.

 "we shouldn't have to do what we don't want to do in warframe" might be more straightforward then, just because warframe wasn't that kind of game in my experience.

So i'm saying that the nightwave forces us(someone who likes less than 60% content of warframe) to do things we don't want to do, and this is bad, but since i can't know other people's mind, i'm just saying my opinion for myself.

I can't really understand point of "community consensus" thing, is that a advice that i should say "This is bad nobody wants to do it" instead of "This is bad i don't want to do it"? or you are saying that my opinion is nothing and doesn't influence warframe just because you like the nightwave?

I'm saying that you should stop talking about your opinion like fact, because it is not.

Also, if you like less than 60% content of Warframe, you might want to consider leaving.

I've always thought nightwave was to make us do things we dont normally do, make us leave our usual schedule of sorties then AFK in orbiter and do something we may or may not have done before, that we may or may not like. Like as if Nightwave exists, like it matters. Not like something you have just passively giving you rewards for going about your day.

Edited by Cephalycion
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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

I'm saying that you should stop talking about your opinion like fact, because it is not.

Also, if you like less than 60% content of Warframe, you might want to consider leaving.

Obviously almost everything i say about this is the opinion, i just thought i don't have to state "in my opinion" in every post.

Warframe have little exclusive content and almost all things are tradable/purchasable, and you can farm plat with basically every content, it is a fact.

Nightwave is forcing us (again someone who likes less than 60% content in warframe) to do something i don't like with shiny exclusive rewards, this is also a fact, "And i don't like it should be changed" is opinion.

So... what then? why i should leave if 55% of content is fun just because some new content came with 60% filtering? even if "good content" is like 1% of content, we (mostly) didn't have to do something we don't want till nightwave hits, and nightwave is "first time", devs are looking for feedback... shouldn't i say "i don't like this" ?

Edited by Test-995
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20 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

 "we shouldn't have to do what we don't want to do in warframe" might be more straightforward then, just because warframe wasn't that kind of game in my experience.

So i'm saying that the nightwave forces us(someone who likes less than 60% content of warframe) to do things we don't want to do, and this is bad, but since i can't know other people's mind, i'm just saying my opinion for myself.

You got the point there, warframe wasn't like that before nightwave. For whatever syndicate you needed standing, you could do it on your on pace, get to max rank within a week or two, or months. Doing syndicate missions or just put on a sigil and do whatever you want. Doing bounties for other syndicates, or farming gems or fishing. Even if you didn't like any of those activities, you could still choose the one that was most acceptable to you.

Sure, there are tedious grinds you can't avoid, like farming nidus parts. But once you get all parts, you're done with that and never have to do it again. Getting all khora parts is pretty annoying, but once you have them all, you're done. If you like onslaught, you can keep on doing it. If not, you never have to do it again.

With nightwave there is no option anymore. When the radio dj tells you to do sorties, you have to. When she sais bounties, you have to. When she sais jump, you jump (bullet jump). No alternatives to get to the same reward. And apparently nightwave will be going on forever, making you do the same things over and over again, not just from one season to the next, but already from one week to the next. If you like that content or not.

I was thinking about that 60% you mentioned, and i have to admit, i do like less than 60% of the content of warframe too. But this is not really a problem because warframe is not fortnite, which has only one objective. If you would make a list of possible activities in warframe, you'd be busy for a while. And if you enjoy just half of those - probably hundreds of - activities, it's still a really good reason to play this game!

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5 hours ago, TheFBD said:

You got the point there, warframe wasn't like that before nightwave. For whatever syndicate you needed standing, you could do it on your on pace, get to max rank within a week or two, or months. Doing syndicate missions or just put on a sigil and do whatever you want. Doing bounties for other syndicates, or farming gems or fishing. Even if you didn't like any of those activities, you could still choose the one that was most acceptable to you.

Flase. 

Every alert came with conditions that needed to be met to earn the reward. Every event required some level of participation to earn those goodies. 

Please stop claiming otherwise. It's pretty ridiculous. 

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-03-05 at 5:47 AM, [DE]Bear said:

For some of these Elite challenges, we were attempting to speak to the endurance runners, but it seems we may have missed the mark - if you liked it, or didn't like it, comment below. In the end, we wanted to make a series of challenges that spoke to every type of player, but we do not want to do so at the cost of enjoyment overall

How about the segment of players whom like boss-like fights (Smarter AI, specific damage point only, different attack pattern), or those BOSS-rush (All enemies are boss, with starting cap of 1, slowly raising the cap by 1), or just some haunted feelings (like the every first event for Grineer Manic), or maybe make it a all-stalker/killer squad rush mission.

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I dunno. I heard people grousing about the use 3 forma. I think that I've used over 10 so far if I start counting from that first 3. Certainly didn't seem terrible to me.

Pretty subjective. Some players only have a few forma and no weapons worth wasting it on. This is one of the worst challenges for low MR players. Use 3 forma, to win 3 forma... Okay let me just polarize my mk1-Braton with all my forma... I'm MR10 and I only had 6 forma when these came up, granted I got a couple BPs from relics but not piles of them, because there is other stuff I need out of relics too, and I'm certainly not going to throw away a rare reward for a forma BP when that is the choice. I skipped these and I still reached 30, but I was not certain of that for the first forma challenge, it was a gamble. The second one, I knew I could skip, because I was close to 30 already. Being locked out of numerous tasks early on, left many lower MR players unsure if they could get away with skipping anything. You can say, you don't have to do the task, you only need 60%... Yet many lower level players were far from sure that they could afford to skip these tasks because we were locked out of numerous tasks already.

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Yeah it's supposed to be subjective, and I pointed out clearly that it's "to me". That's the point of opinions. However I'll remind that the tier rewards included 6 forma. That's a 100% return on investment, before we start to count the other stuff. 

Also yeah that the thing about forma. But since it's common in many relics if all that dropped was crap, grabbing a forma isn't a bad idea. Also grabbing the prime junk and selling for a minimum of 2 plat per item, you're looking at maybe selling 18 pieces to buy a 3 forma bundle premade. 

Also a well polarised Mk-1 Braton is nothing to scoff at. Just saying.

Typically ROI is not expressed like this, spending 6 forma and getting 6 forma back, is a 0% return on investment. If the rewards had included 12 forma, that would be a 100% ROI.

As for being common in many relics, it is not actually common in all that many, it is in some, it is uncommon in others, and it is not in a good many at all. I have done probably 50 relics since this began, and I've picked up about 3 forma BPs. Granted I have gotten a lot of other stuff that I can trade for plat and then buy forma with, but that is somewhat advanced and slightly beyond what might be reasonably expected of new players. New players probably don't even have the piles of relics which I've accumulated either.

As for "a well polarised Mk-1 Braton is nothing to scoff at," first, new players probably lack the mods and insight needed to really take advantage of such a thing, and anyone that really could, is well beyond needing to, but really I seems like you are just being deliberately obtuse, and not so much missing the points people make, but simply refusing to acknowledge them or attempting to obfuscate them.

 

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Gilding a weapon? Meh, ok. 

Again, such a subjective response. You can make light of gilding something, while for myself and many others, it is not even possible within the time frame, period. These standing gated tasks put much pressure on us lower tier players to do every single task that we were possibly capable of doing, and left us still unsure if we could reach 30, because we had no idea how much we would be locked out of over the next few weeks.

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Again yes, opinions on either side are going to be subjective. 

And again 43k standing per week. You can miss an average of 13k and get to 300k in 10 weeks. If you count the first partial week as 11 the way DE seems to be doing, you can complete with no elite weekly tasks done at all with room to spare. If you find yourself locked out of a significant portion, then the question is not "can I get all of the rewards handed to me" but "what rewards can I earn".

It is not so much that there is a degree of subjectivity in your responses, which is of course unavoidable, and bringing it up is really just diversionary semantics - it is that you are flippantly dismissive regarding other people's concerns, based on your own purely subjective experience. You don't have a problem with gilding stuff, fine, of course I don't haver a problem with you not having a problem with that. But when you reply to others by making light of their concerns and being thoughtlessly dismissive based on such subjectivity, then your subjectivity becomes notable.

As for your endless reiterations of your standing per week calculations, it is completely irrelevant, because low level players who lacked standing with various factions had no idea how much standing they would be locked out of in coming weeks. Many of them also had no idea how many weeks this would run for either. Many players also could not be sure they would be available for weeks, weeks ahead of time.

 

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5 sorties? Can do. 

And as long as you can do it, then it is fine I guess. Starting to notice a trend here. Subjectivity. See the last two responses. Some players can not do sorties, period. Locked out of tasks and wondering how far they may be able to get in this. I can do sorties, but I can totally see how some players must have felt as this started. In the very first week, many players were locked out of several tasks, so they may have thought they can't possibly reach 30, but maybe they can get a few slots or a potato. So they may not have tried too hard, and missed a couple tasks they could have done, then as weeks go by, they realize they just might be able to reach 30, if they do every single thing they can do.

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Yeah, if a filthy casual player like me can get it done, then I figure that's a good benchmark. Because I'm not an "elite veteran with all the meta". Because I know that I skipped quite a few challenges. And that's fine. 

BTW is the trend you're noticing that 300k out of 430k means not being required to do all of the challenges in any given week? I do hope so. Some people just couldn't grasp that part for some reason. 

The fact that you claim to be a casual player is irrelevant, the fact is you had sorties unlocked, while other players did not. A casual player being able to get something done does not evidence that a player who is locked out of something should be able to as well. In fact your argument here is just shear absurdity. No, you being able to do sorties is not a good benchmark of people who are locked out of them being able to do them, because in fact they can not, period.

As for your endless reiterations of how much standing was required and how much was offered, some people couldn't grasp that because they don't follow the forums, and it was never mentioned in game, and some people seem to have a hard time grasping that...

 

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8 bounties? I need more of those lenses anyway.

Yeah, 8 bounties is not a problem, but it is not particularly fun. 5 would be okay, 3 would be better. 8 is just enough to make bounties feel really tedious and leave me feeling entirely sick of them.

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That's subjective, what about people running agoraphobic toasters? 

Oh right, they can skip it.

Here you are just resorting to semantics, yes, everything is subjective, to some degree or another. Most players will be inclined to bash these out in one session so they can get them out of the way. Sure we could spread them out, doing a couple each day or something, but that is not how human psychology works. Sure some people would do that, but most people, would do bounties, and get these done in one or two focused bounty sessions.

Generally speaking, 3 bounties is no big deal, but after running 3 bounties many players are liable to be bored of doing bounties and want to do something else, but they need to get these done so they will run a couple more, after 5, these becomes an absolute chore. Not a difficult chore, but not a particularly fun one either, and it leaves many players with a more negative impression of bounties going forward. Where it used to be fun to run bounties now and then, now it is just tedious after this.

Of course I don't represent everyone, but I am presenting a somewhat objective perspective here. I'm not saying 'I don't have a problem with it, so it is fine.' I have a small problem with this, and I can understand how some may have a bigger problem with it. I'm not too concerned with those who have no problem with it, because, they don't have a problem for me to be concerned about.

 

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Catch fish? Yeah I've dozens of the baits so no big deal. Anyone want come with?

Nice that you're willing to share your bait. While it is generally not too tough to find a higher level player to help run a mission or two, especially if the noob can keep up while they rush. Not too many of them are keen on helping random noobs go fishing, and they shouldn't need to either. Heck, fishing and mining should be entirely optional in this game, I want to play warframe not a minecraft clone or fishing sim. It took me many hours over several days to find someone to share their bait with me.

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Did you try asking in recruiting chat? 

Honest question. Lots of people seemed kind of surprised when people joined their party and had already completed the challenge. Fact is, if you can help me to find a hotspot, that makes it so much easier for us to fish. And we can take turns wiping out any enemies who are dumb enough to disturb us while we're trying to catch stuff.

Of course I did, and as I said, it took me many hours over several days to find some generous people to share their bait with me. I'm always very polite and unassuming when seeking help via recruiting and it seems that is generally well received so it never takes me long to find a helpful Teno willing to lend a hand, except with this task and with the grove specters. The commonality between the two being they require something more than simply time.

I also know several other lower level players who tried to get help with this, for days, and were not able to find anyone to help them out. Maybe they weren't as polite, though I think they were, so I guess I was just lucky or my timing was better. Perfectly understandable too, considering that getting the rare fish might take a while, some older players don't even realize they can share the spawns from their bait (I had to explain this a few times in recruiting when people repeatedly told me that bait was not tradeable).

Plus plenty of players are not interested in fishing and saw it as a chore even before nightwave, and as mentioned above, it involves spending resources. It costs me nothing to taxi a player to hydron, or carry a hijack mission for someone who was having a hard time with it. The resources may be minimal but there is a fundamental difference in lending a hand that costs only time, and lending a hand that costs resources. Even though the resources only take time to farm, it is still viewed differently by a majority of people but I won't go deep into the psychology behind that.

That is all academic though, the point is that players were locked out of this, and other tasks, and were not informed how long this would last, and so were left unsure about whether they were wasting their time pursuing something that they may be locked out of in the end.

 

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Mine for rare gems? That sunpoint plasma drill is great, and I'll probably find a use for those, sooner rather than late

I don't want to play minecraft. If some people enjoy these aspects of this game, good for them, awesome, but these mining and fishing activities should not be forced on us. Yes I know no one had guns to our heads but for us lower tier players, who were locked out of numerous tasks, we felt like we could not afford to skip these tasks whether we wanted to or not. Not if we wanted to 'attempt' to reach 30 because that was not a certainty for us when we were being locked out of tasks.

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You clearly have not spent much time mining in warframe after fortuna if you are trying to compare that to Minecraft.  

I think I just made it pretty clear that I don't want to spend time mining, so why would I have spent much time doing it when I don't want to spend time doing it? Such a strangely unperceptive reply...

Your point though is once again entirely irrelevant though, because regardless of how little time I spent mining, I have certainly spent more than enough time doing it to understand the mechanics of it, and it is entirely reasonable to assume so. And yes mining in warcraft is entirely worthy of being likened to minecraft. Sure the mechanics are not identical, but it is equally tedious and repetitive.

I want to play Warframe, not MineFrame. Honestly, it feels absolutely absurd to me to use psychic trasference to take control of a cutting edge warframe, so I can go mine stuff or go fishing. I don't begrudge DE for putting it in the game, as I'm sure some people like it, and it adds a greater range of activities which could appeal to a wider range of people. I just wish they had made these tasks entirely optional. They could have made other activities as optional alteratives to get the same resources, like defend the fishermen, or raid the mine. Thumpers are a step in the right direction, for PoE at least.

Again, you don't seem to have a problem with mining but that does not invalidate the complaints of those who do have a problem with it. I don't think anyone is arguing to outright remove mining from the game, and no one is trying to spoil your enjoyment of the game. Yet you seem pretty keen on insisting that things which spoil others' enjoyment of the game are fine as is.

 

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Nightmare missions? Those are just normal missions without ciphers.

Nightmare missions are fine.

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Again that's "subjective" I think I see a trends here, if you are ok with it, then you say that it's okay. See how ridiculous it sounds? Of course our opinions are subjective. And of course people will have different opinions. There are probably newbs who don't have any gear that can trivialize the nightmare conditions. But they are not going to be negatively affected by not reaching the uppermost tiers.  

It really is not the same level of subjective. I said they are fine because the issues with them are minimal and weren't worth bringing up in specific here. I was not being casually dismissive. You didn't really raise any issues with them and I think it's very few people who have any serious issue with them specifically here. Some people take issue with the chore-ification of nightwave in general, a few have mentioned that 10 was just a bit much and not quite in-line with the standing granted, suggesting that 10 should have been an elite, but even those people, where I have noticed, have made it clear that this was a minor gripe.

My saying they are fine is not entirely subjective either because, as with most of my arguments I am basing them on the general impressions I have gathered from reading countless posts of the many people who have problems with nightwave. Just like with sorties, where I had no problem at all, but I can understand how some people were locked out of them, in the first week, coloring their impression of nightwave going forward.

I have problems with the entire system of nightwave, which while not all bad, presents lots of issues for lots of players. Nightmare missions being a part of nightwave, is problematic in general due to the way nightwave is implemented in general, but that was not the point of my replies to you here, which were more focused on the specific areas you were pointing at. Seems you were trying to make a point-list so as to dismiss all the issues people raised through over-simplification and by making light of their concerns. Except your flippant dismissals are based on over-simplification, false equivalencies, callous disregard, pure subjectivity, and an obtuse refusal to acknowledge the actual points people make.

 

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Run capture, rescues etc? Oh those are what I'd have done while opening relics.. Free standing! 

No problem with these.

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I'm glad. Others were grousing about them.  

Again, I don't mean to make light of the issues people do have with these activities, I have seen these mentioned as problematic in specific very little if at all. Being a part of nightwave and suffering from the issues surrounding the implementation of nightwave in general is beyond the scope of my more focused replies here. These tasks in and of themselves, are easy, take little time, are worth an appropriate amount of standing, and can be combined with other activities and in many cases accomplished incidentally. So general problems with nightwave notwithstanding, there is little to complain about regarding these activities in specific.

 

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The only thing that I wouldn't normally have done is "with a friend or clanmate". Just hopped into recruiting and made some new ones.

Arbitrary nonsense and completely unnecessary.

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That's gonna apply to every single challenge. There's no reason to not have it.  

No, it simply does not apply to every challenge to such a degree, not by a very wide margin. In fact every single other activity, as far a I can recall, directly grants some kind of tangible in-game reward independently of the nightwave event. People run sorties for the rewards even when there is no challenge to do so, people open relics to get the relic drops, and for traces. People do elite sanctuary onslaught for the relics and other rewards. People socket ayatans to get endo. Nightmare missions drop nightmare mods, etc. etc..

The 'do it with a friend or clan mate' condition is entirely arbitrary and serves no purpose outside of meeting the arbitrary nightwave requirement. People who like running with friends/clanmates do so, people who don't, shouldn't have to.

 

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What's left?

Grove specters, orb mothers, profit takers, and everything else locked behind standing walls. This wouldn't be such an issue, if there was better communication regarding number of weeks and amount of possible standing remaining, etc. Yes I know some of us knew approximately how long the event would run, and some knew approximately what percent of tasks needed to be done each week to reach 30, but many players don't follow forum announcements and watch devstreams, these things need to be communicated in the event interface itself.

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Yeah those spectres were fun. I think that I popped about 5 or 6 apothics with different groups. I have to go get more plants, but some of the mods are worth farming. 

The only thing that we need to know is "10 weeks" . After that it's very simple math 30 x 10k < 10 x 43k 

Anyone claiming that they couldn't figure out if they were going to be able to skip some challenges every week and still get to 300k probably has much bigger issues than nightwave. And really this is warframe, we all know about the wiki by the end of the first couple of days whether we like it or not. 

Again, nice of you to help some others out with this, but DE shouldn't count on you doing so. This one took me quite a while to get someone to help with too, and I know several players who could not find anyone to help them with this and had yet to unlock the quest.

 

The other big problem is weeks long consistent commitment. Some of us must travel on business regularly, I was just extremely lucky that I didn't have any longer trips in this period but most months I do, which basically just cuts me right out of the replacement for alerts going forward. If I miss 5 weeks, I miss most of what I might have gotten from alerts. With alerts if I miss 5 weeks, it is no problem, I missed some alerts, but they will roll back around. Nightwave may roll back around too, but If I can't be available for a couple months, I'll just miss out again, whereas with alerts, when they roll back around, I only need to be available for 20 minutes.

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And that complaint literally boils down to "well what if I can't participate in the event at all" and the response to that is "then you can't participate in the event". And that's fine. 

Life is more important than a video game, mate. If it means that you just can't play, that's okay. We'll be here and all of this will come around again at some point. You don't need to let irrational fears of missing out, control you.  

Your logic here is actually quite absurd. A fundamental aspect of this game is building warframes and gear which require resources which are virtually unobtainable outside of nightwave now. Nitain used to be obtainable via alerts, which traveling frequently for weeks and months at a time on business did not completely cut me out of. I don't think DE's intent here is to make it so people who are frequently not available to play for extended periods are no longer welcome to play warframe. However making nitain unavailable to them, cuts them off from a huge portion of the core of what warframe is. Umbral forma too, while it is fine for it to be very rare, I don't think DE's intent was to make it exclusively available to a select demographic of players.

If this was just about some cosmetics, and a couple slots or potatoes, then it wouldn't matter so much, because I can get those things with plat, and I don't need the cosmetics to enjoy the game. But having numerous warframes and core gear/weapons depend on nightwave participation pretty much invalidates your argument. I have missed many events due to being away on business, and I have never complained about missing those events. Yet alerts were the mechanism whereby we could get access to rare but essential resources, and they did not require a months long commitment.

I'm not irrationally afraid of missing out, I am simply pointing out a major flaw in the design here. If nightwave is meant to replace alerts, as currently implemented, it is going to inadvertently cut many people off from essential in-game resources which play a fundamental role in the core gameplay.

Your reply literally boils down to "well I can't really grasp the point you are making or at least I'm going to pretend not to, while I divert your argument into a false equivalency which results in the conclusion that if you must travel frequently on extended business trips, then you simply should not play warframe at all then, and you should be happy about that." Which is simply ridiculous. You also ignored the part where I already addressed the fact that nightwave would roll back around, as if I hadn't, because that's just how you roll.

 

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No, sorry, a highly vocal minority whining ≠ the majority having an issue.

 

Oh the irony... Just wow! Anyone who skims through these 90+ pages is sure to realize that by far the most vocal minority here is clearly you...

Edited by Arc5in
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18 minutes ago, Arc5in said:

Oh the irony... Just wow! Anyone who skims through these 90+ pages is sure to realize that by far the most vocal minority here is clearly you...

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8 hours ago, Arc5in said:

Pretty subjective. Some players only have a few forma and no weapons worth wasting it on. This is one of the worst challenges for low MR players. Use 3 forma, to win 3 forma... Okay let me just polarize my mk1-Braton with all my forma... I'm MR10 and I only had 6 forma when these came up, granted I got a couple BPs from relics but not piles of them, because there is other stuff I need out of relics too, and I'm certainly not going to throw away a rare reward for a forma BP when that is the choice. I skipped these and I still reached 30, but I was not certain of that for the first forma challenge, it was a gamble. The second one, I knew I could skip, because I was close to 30 already. Being locked out of numerous tasks early on, left many lower MR players unsure if they could get away with skipping anything. You can say, you don't have to do the task, you only need 60%... Yet many lower level players were far from sure that they could afford to skip these tasks because we were locked out of numerous tasks already.

Typically ROI is not expressed like this, spending 6 forma and getting 6 forma back, is a 0% return on investment. If the rewards had included 12 forma, that would be a 100% ROI.

As for being common in many relics, it is not actually common in all that many, it is in some, it is uncommon in others, and it is not in a good many at all. I have done probably 50 relics since this began, and I've picked up about 3 forma BPs. Granted I have gotten a lot of other stuff that I can trade for plat and then buy forma with, but that is somewhat advanced and slightly beyond what might be reasonably expected of new players. New players probably don't even have the piles of relics which I've accumulated either.

As for "a well polarised Mk-1 Braton is nothing to scoff at," first, new players probably lack the mods and insight needed to really take advantage of such a thing, and anyone that really could, is well beyond needing to, but really I seems like you are just being deliberately obtuse, and not so much missing the points people make, but simply refusing to acknowledge them or attempting to obfuscate them.

Hoo... The whole colours thing is a bit confusing. 

I'll give you the roi, but I meant it literally. You got back 100% of what you invested, not you profited by 100% of what you invested. 

I also noticed that you also didn't disagree that a properly forma Mk-1 braton is nothing to scoff at, so I think I will ask you plainly: were you just being deliberately obtuse, and not so much missing the points people make, but simply refusing to acknowledge them or attempting to obfuscate them? 

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Again, such a subjective response. You can make light of gilding something, while for myself and many others, it is not even possible within the time frame, period. These standing gated tasks put much pressure on us lower tier players to do every single task that we were possibly capable of doing, and left us still unsure if we could reach 30, because we had no idea how much we would be locked out of over the next few weeks.

It is not so much that there is a degree of subjectivity in your responses, which is of course unavoidable, and bringing it up is really just diversionary semantics - it is that you are flippantly dismissive regarding other people's concerns, based on your own purely subjective experience. You don't have a problem with gilding stuff, fine, of course I don't haver a problem with you not having a problem with that. But when you reply to others by making light of their concerns and being thoughtlessly dismissive based on such subjectivity, then your subjectivity becomes notable.

As for your endless reiterations of your standing per week calculations, it is completely irrelevant, because low level players who lacked standing with various factions had no idea how much standing they would be locked out of in coming weeks. Many of them also had no idea how many weeks this would run for either. Many players also could not be sure they would be available for weeks, weeks ahead of time.

Well again when your concerns are in fact based on falsity, then your concerns are well founded and can be dismissed. 

For example saying "many people didn't know how many weeks the event would run for, ahead of time" is fine. But using that to justify an irrational fomo, is not. If you don't know something, start by asking, not by panicking and blaming others for things that aren't real. 

So, in a word, no. Just no. 

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And as long as you can do it, then it is fine I guess. Starting to notice a trend here. Subjectivity. See the last two responses. Some players can not do sorties, period. Locked out of tasks and wondering how far they may be able to get in this. I can do sorties, but I can totally see how some players must have felt as this started. In the very first week, many players were locked out of several tasks, so they may have thought they can't possibly reach 30, but maybe they can get a few slots or a potato. So they may not have tried too hard, and missed a couple tasks they could have done, then as weeks go by, they realize they just might be able to reach 30, if they do every single thing they can do.

The fact that you claim to be a casual player is irrelevant, the fact is you had sorties unlocked, while other players did not. A casual player being able to get something done does not evidence that a player who is locked out of something should be able to as well. In fact your argument here is just shear absurdity. No, you being able to do sorties is not a good benchmark of people who are locked out of them being able to do them, because in fact they can not, period.

As for your endless reiterations of how much standing was required and how much was offered, some people couldn't grasp that because they don't follow the forums, and it was never mentioned in game, and some people seem to have a hard time grasping that...

Let's see, so far sorties have accounted for what 10k? 15k? Something like that? Over how many weeks? 

Did you check the math that you are so desperately trying to dismiss that it's featured twice so far? Missing 15k hasn't and won't disqualify anyone from getting to 300k out of even just 430k. 

So no, your acorn that you are clinging to is not proof of the sky falling. 

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Yeah, 8 bounties is not a problem, but it is not particularly fun. 5 would be okay, 3 would be better. 8 is just enough to make bounties feel really tedious and leave me feeling entirely sick of them.

Here you are just resorting to semantics, yes, everything is subjective, to some degree or another. Most players will be inclined to bash these out in one session so they can get them out of the way. Sure we could spread them out, doing a couple each day or something, but that is not how human psychology works. Sure some people would do that, but most people, would do bounties, and get these done in one or two focused bounty sessions.

Generally speaking, 3 bounties is no big deal, but after running 3 bounties many players are liable to be bored of doing bounties and want to do something else, but they need to get these done so they will run a couple more, after 5, these becomes an absolute chore. Not a difficult chore, but not a particularly fun one either, and it leaves many players with a more negative impression of bounties going forward. Where it used to be fun to run bounties now and then, now it is just tedious after this.

Of course I don't represent everyone, but I am presenting a somewhat objective perspective here. I'm not saying 'I don't have a problem with it, so it is fine.' I have a small problem with this, and I can understand how some may have a bigger problem with it. I'm not too concerned with those who have no problem with it, because, they don't have a problem for me to be concerned about.

Uh yes that was semantics, it's also a satirical play on the argument that was used of my comments being subjective. I'd have thought that you'd have noticed that. All of the things that I found were fine were from my viewpoint, and others are free to disagree. What you agree was fine applies to us, but there are others with perfectly valid reasons to disagree. 

I'm really not sure what anyone else would do. I don't believe that I ever ran all of the bounties at once, or even the nightmare missions. 

The instant you made a subjective call and decided that it was "more objective"? Yeah. That's not really how that works. 

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Nice that you're willing to share your bait. While it is generally not too tough to find a higher level player to help run a mission or two, especially if the noob can keep up while they rush. Not too many of them are keen on helping random noobs go fishing, and they shouldn't need to either. Heck, fishing and mining should be entirely optional in this game, I want to play warframe not a minecraft clone or fishing sim. It took me many hours over several days to find someone to share their bait with me.

Of course I did, and as I said, it took me many hours over several days to find some generous people to share their bait with me. I'm always very polite and unassuming when seeking help via recruiting and it seems that is generally well received so it never takes me long to find a helpful Teno willing to lend a hand, except with this task and with the grove specters. The commonality between the two being they require something more than simply time.

I also know several other lower level players who tried to get help with this, for days, and were not able to find anyone to help them out. Maybe they weren't as polite, though I think they were, so I guess I was just lucky or my timing was better. Perfectly understandable too, considering that getting the rare fish might take a while, some older players don't even realize they can share the spawns from their bait (I had to explain this a few times in recruiting when people repeatedly told me that bait was not tradeable).

Plus plenty of players are not interested in fishing and saw it as a chore even before nightwave, and as mentioned above, it involves spending resources. It costs me nothing to taxi a player to hydron, or carry a hijack mission for someone who was having a hard time with it. The resources may be minimal but there is a fundamental difference in lending a hand that costs only time, and lending a hand that costs resources. Even though the resources only take time to farm, it is still viewed differently by a majority of people but I won't go deep into the psychology behind that.

That is all academic though, the point is that players were locked out of this, and other tasks, and were not informed how long this would last, and so were left unsure about whether they were wasting their time pursuing something that they may be locked out of in the end.

I'm truly sorry to hear that you had a hard time. I saw people successfully requesting both of those, as well as the vault run, and apparently getting through. I'm not sure but maybe it's to do with the hardware issues some people have because PC's aren't always able to handle the free roam areas? 

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I don't want to play minecraft. If some people enjoy these aspects of this game, good for them, awesome, but these mining and fishing activities should not be forced on us. Yes I know no one had guns to our heads but for us lower tier players, who were locked out of numerous tasks, we felt like we could not afford to skip these tasks whether we wanted to or not. Not if we wanted to 'attempt' to reach 30 because that was not a certainty for us when we were being locked out of tasks.

I think I just made it pretty clear that I don't want to spend time mining, so why would I have spent much time doing it when I don't want to spend time doing it? Such a strangely unperceptive reply...

Your point though is once again entirely irrelevant though, because regardless of how little time I spent mining, I have certainly spent more than enough time doing it to understand the mechanics of it, and it is entirely reasonable to assume so. And yes mining in warcraft is entirely worthy of being likened to minecraft. Sure the mechanics are not identical, but it is equally tedious and repetitive.

I want to play Warframe, not MineFrame. Honestly, it feels absolutely absurd to me to use psychic trasference to take control of a cutting edge warframe, so I can go mine stuff or go fishing. I don't begrudge DE for putting it in the game, as I'm sure some people like it, and it adds a greater range of activities which could appeal to a wider range of people. I just wish they had made these tasks entirely optional. They could have made other activities as optional alteratives to get the same resources, like defend the fishermen, or raid the mine. Thumpers are a step in the right direction, for PoE at least.

Again, you don't seem to have a problem with mining but that does not invalidate the complaints of those who do have a problem with it. I don't think anyone is arguing to outright remove mining from the game, and no one is trying to spoil your enjoyment of the game. Yet you seem pretty keen on insisting that things which spoil others' enjoyment of the game are fine as is.

Really mate? You lead with "we were forced to, but not really", made a really weird comparison out of nowhere, probably because you figured mine - mining - Minecraft! (Which seems to be the case because now you're trying to equate "mine a few gems" to the game needing to be called Mineframe.) and you don't see how that's pretty ridiculous? 

And I pointed out that the sunpoint plasma drill made mining rare materials so much easier, because believe it or not I still run into vets who don't realise that there's a difference. If you did, great for you. If you didn't, you can check it out if you ever do want to. 

And as for the last paragraph, you realise that the reverse argument is also valid right "just because you don't want to do it, doesn't mean that it's not a part of the game, or that there's anything wrong with it", right? You seem pretty keen on suggesting that anything that you don't enjoy needs to go. 

Seems a bit much to me. 

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Nightmare missions are fine.

It really is not the same level of subjective. I said they are fine because the issues with them are minimal and weren't worth bringing up in specific here. I was not being casually dismissive. You didn't really raise any issues with them and I think it's very few people who have any serious issue with them specifically here. Some people take issue with the chore-ification of nightwave in general, a few have mentioned that 10 was just a bit much and not quite in-line with the standing granted, suggesting that 10 should have been an elite, but even those people, where I have noticed, have made it clear that this was a minor gripe.

My saying they are fine is not entirely subjective either because, as with most of my arguments I am basing them on the general impressions I have gathered from reading countless posts of the many people who have problems with nightwave. Just like with sorties, where I had no problem at all, but I can understand how some people were locked out of them, in the first week, coloring their impression of nightwave going forward.

I have problems with the entire system of nightwave, which while not all bad, presents lots of issues for lots of players. Nightmare missions being a part of nightwave, is problematic in general due to the way nightwave is implemented in general, but that was not the point of my replies to you here, which were more focused on the specific areas you were pointing at. Seems you were trying to make a point-list so as to dismiss all the issues people raised through over-simplification and by making light of their concerns. Except your flippant dismissals are based on over-simplification, false equivalencies, callous disregard, pure subjectivity, and an obtuse refusal to acknowledge the actual points people make.

Again, subjective ≠ objective. My subjective opinion and yours aligned, but pretending that they're objective because they match doesn't work. Others complained about them for different reasons. While it was again satire because you seem to think that "that's subjective" mainly applies to others and not yourself, my response acknowledged that people did have different opinions to ours. Trying to dismiss those poor souls in so callous a manner while shifting the blame to me, is really flippant and heartless of you. 

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No problem with these.

Again, I don't mean to make light of the issues people do have with these activities, I have seen these mentioned as problematic in specific very little if at all. Being a part of nightwave and suffering from the issues surrounding the implementation of nightwave in general is beyond the scope of my more focused replies here. These tasks in and of themselves, are easy, take little time, are worth an appropriate amount of standing, and can be combined with other activities and in many cases accomplished incidentally. So general problems with nightwave notwithstanding, there is little to complain about regarding these activities in specific.

And others would tell you that no single task that we had to do is hard. Several have complained because DE stepped back much of the challenge. 

And truly, starting by acknowledging that some others can find issue and end with "there is little to complain about" is a very, is an impressive about-face for someone who doesn't like subjective and flip dismissals of others complaints. 

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Arbitrary nonsense and completely unnecessary.

No, it simply does not apply to every challenge to such a degree, not by a very wide margin. In fact every single other activity, as far a I can recall, directly grants some kind of tangible in-game reward independently of the nightwave event. People run sorties for the rewards even when there is no challenge to do so, people open relics to get the relic drops, and for traces. People do elite sanctuary onslaught for the relics and other rewards. People socket ayatans to get endo. Nightmare missions drop nightmare mods, etc. etc..

The 'do it with a friend or clan mate' condition is entirely arbitrary and serves no purpose outside of meeting the arbitrary nightwave requirement. People who like running with friends/clanmates do so, people who don't, shouldn't have to.

Oh, but sometimes a thing is it's own reward. This past week I've had several requests to join missions from people who added me during those challenges. 

Considering the fact that you mentioned having difficulty finding someone to take you fishing I'd have thought that having a larger pool of possible players who you might be able to call on for help would have been a good thing. But maybe not and a subjective and extremely flippant dismissal of a significant in-game feature is the better way to go?

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Grove specters, orb mothers, profit takers, and everything else locked behind standing walls. This wouldn't be such an issue, if there was better communication regarding number of weeks and amount of possible standing remaining, etc. Yes I know some of us knew approximately how long the event would run, and some knew approximately what percent of tasks needed to be done each week to reach 30, but many players don't follow forum announcements and watch devstreams, these things need to be communicated in the event interface itself.

Again, nice of you to help some others out with this, but DE shouldn't count on you doing so. This one took me quite a while to get someone to help with too, and I know several players who could not find anyone to help them with this and had yet to unlock the quest.

Again I'm sad to hear that. I had hoped that more people would be doing the same, not because we have to, but because we can. Also I did benefit personally from the drops in those hunts. So taking a few people along for their benefit didn't cost me anything. 

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The other big problem is weeks long consistent commitment. Some of us must travel on business regularly, I was just extremely lucky that I didn't have any longer trips in this period but most months I do, which basically just cuts me right out of the replacement for alerts going forward. If I miss 5 weeks, I miss most of what I might have gotten from alerts. With alerts if I miss 5 weeks, it is no problem, I missed some alerts, but they will roll back around. Nightwave may roll back around too, but If I can't be available for a couple months, I'll just miss out again, whereas with alerts, when they roll back around, I only need to be available for 20 minutes.

Your logic here is actually quite absurd. A fundamental aspect of this game is building warframes and gear which require resources which are virtually unobtainable outside of nightwave now. Nitain used to be obtainable via alerts, which traveling frequently for weeks and months at a time on business did not completely cut me out of. I don't think DE's intent here is to make it so people who are frequently not available to play for extended periods are no longer welcome to play warframe. However making nitain unavailable to them, cuts them off from a huge portion of the core of what warframe is. Umbral forma too, while it is fine for it to be very rare, I don't think DE's intent was to make it exclusively available to a select demographic of players.

If this was just about some cosmetics, and a couple slots or potatoes, then it wouldn't matter so much, because I can get those things with plat, and I don't need the cosmetics to enjoy the game. But having numerous warframes and core gear/weapons depend on nightwave participation pretty much invalidates your argument. I have missed many events due to being away on business, and I have never complained about missing those events. Yet alerts were the mechanism whereby we could get access to rare but essential resources, and they did not require a months long commitment.

I'm not irrationally afraid of missing out, I am simply pointing out a major flaw in the design here. If nightwave is meant to replace alerts, as currently implemented, it is going to inadvertently cut many people off from essential in-game resources which play a fundamental role in the core gameplay.

Your reply literally boils down to "well I can't really grasp the point you are making or at least I'm going to pretend not to, while I divert your argument into a false equivalency which results in the conclusion that if you must travel frequently on extended business trips, then you simply should not play warframe at all then, and you should be happy about that." Which is simply ridiculous. You also ignored the part where I already addressed the fact that nightwave would roll back around, as if I hadn't, because that's just how you roll.

4-6 hrs over 2 weeks, can give you 6 to 8 ranks, that's 100 creds. For many of the weeks you could have done that in a single session per week. How much nitain does that buy? Also recall, all of the weeks you were away you would have gotten no nitain, and  playing only 2, three hour sessions, would have gotten you how many nitain? Maybe 4 if you are lucky? 

So yes, I see your hypothetical situation, and I see that you didn't really think it through. 

Yeah people missing large amounts of time, will have a problem completing the event. That's not anyone's fault, and demanding to make it neverending makes no sense. All it does is rob everyone of future seasons of Nightwave while not guaranteeing that those who are not able to complete in 10 weeks ever will. 

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Oh the irony... Just wow! Anyone who skims through these 90+ pages is sure to realize that by far the most vocal minority here is clearly you...

Fair enough, but as others pointed out, people who are content are usually non-vocal in their contentedness. How about we let DE check their stats and figure out which of us belongs to the majority at the end? 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

people who are content are usually non-vocal in their contentedness. How about we let DE check their stats and figure out which of us belongs to the majority at the end? 

One hears that said a lot, but I've yet to see anyone use actual statistics to back that up, in the case of youtube likes VS dislikes, over the entirety of the site for example, that's definitely not the case, in fact, while yes, some videos are definitely received negatively, the vast overwhelming amount of feedback is positive, at least by way of the like to dislike ratio, at least in the only article I saw that actually seemed to use statistics to back it up.

"DE's stats" won't cover anything so specific as "x amount of people like y", they can judge how many people played for how long in over what period of time, but that metric is an indicator of a lot of things, and trying to apply it to reception of night wave in specific isn't so cut and dry, "as others have pointed out" there was outpouring after outpouring for more universal vacuum, and plenty of "play statistics" over a long period of time, before the eventual change, so how about we just let people give their feedback in the feedback thread and stop berating them for it, if you disagree with what they want, fine, explain why it doesn't appeal to you, but don't try to tell them that they shouldn't feel the way they do.

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Posted (edited)

I have not problem with Nightwave, although not finishing all challenges (I recently hit rank 20), these are my suggestions.

At the beginning I was happy to see Prisoners to get few extra standings. But after those weeks they annoy me. And I'm avoiding them all the time now, not capturing them at ALL! Moreover they started to ruin my missions.. destroying excavators (cryotic farming) and they interrupt open world activities (mining, fishing, conservation..)

1.) Add possibility to turn off spawn (I know this is not very probable..)

2.) Make next nightwave without spawns

- do not spawn next Nightwave boss inside missions but create new mission/arena - maybe accessible after each 5 ranks, or after collecting some keys.

3.) Fix spawn rate of Wolf/Prisoners

- Fix spawn rate at least in open world areas. When I avoid prisoners in Orb Vallis, they spawn again those 100+m away over and over. It really looks like the game is pushing them under my nose..I hoped when I capture them, I will get rid of them.. Unfurtunately they are back in few minutes..

- And maybe fix spawn rate of Wolf. Not completely RNG, but more consistent. Some players never met him, I personally 2-3 times when playing SOLO, never killed him (did him like 1% damage). And I'm avoiding him completely now. Maybe add higher probability when playing in group..

Edited by (PS4)shanncz

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Heres yet another fix, everyone gets a little of what they want, use a system like the Nightmare system, that thing refreshes every day, converts 1 map into a choosably difficult mission for rep rewards & contribution to NW, even make the new missions the primary locations for these challenges to take place in,

Also to try & put the NW story out there, these are the missions where you encounter these characters, with exception of the Wolf or whatever comes next, treat him like an assassin, you keep damaging his pack, big bad wolf doesnt take kindly to that, insert screaming beatdown here, moves on or gets beaten to a burger lump.

The story could unfold as you play, capture missions for ringleaders of the Wolf pack, or the Corpus who worked on whatever project that drove them all to do what theyre doing.

And again i'd like to be invested in a choice to engage the NW as I choose, as the greedy corpus hired goon, the honorable tenno warrior, or the sympathetic collaborator.

As is like everything else outside the main story, all it is here are numbers & carrot chasing, no invested interest, a barebones story, nothing of consequence.

NW can be so much more & made into it's own sub section of the main game that finally becomes worthy of investing time into the machinations of the home system, ESPECIALLY before the new war drops, I want to care if some sentient Armada shows up & lays waste to cetus, or devastates a large section of fortuna driving the survivors to deck 12.

As it is, if that occurs? all i care about is who the new npc is to get whatever items i need are located & what rewards do i get for participating?

This lack of interest has always bothered me, I WANT to care if Eudico or Ticker get stomped by Grineer troops, if Konzu is holding off a horde of infested at the Cetus Gates with Teshin & even fish lady carving the fugly mothers up.

Theres so much potential for this game, its story & mechanics that NO OTHER GAME has going for it, this is what always burns my ass, wasted potential & watching quick fixes & a feeling that the people responsible for making this game the best goddamn sink ive ever played seem as uninterested in tapping this potential as i feel towards the games world.

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10 hours ago, Sylonus said:

One hears that said a lot, but I've yet to see anyone use actual statistics to back that up, in the case of youtube likes VS dislikes, over the entirety of the site for example, that's definitely not the case, in fact, while yes, some videos are definitely received negatively, the vast overwhelming amount of feedback is positive, at least by way of the like to dislike ratio, at least in the only article I saw that actually seemed to use statistics to back it up.

"DE's stats" won't cover anything so specific as "x amount of people like y", they can judge how many people played for how long in over what period of time, but that metric is an indicator of a lot of things, and trying to apply it to reception of night wave in specific isn't so cut and dry, "as others have pointed out" there was outpouring after outpouring for more universal vacuum, and plenty of "play statistics" over a long period of time, before the eventual change, so how about we just let people give their feedback in the feedback thread and stop berating them for it, if you disagree with what they want, fine, explain why it doesn't appeal to you, but don't try to tell them that they shouldn't feel the way they do.

Try checking voter turnout as a fraction of registered voters. Plato and Aristotle both remarked on democracy as a corrupt form of government, as it favours whomsoever shouts the loudest. 

And that'll probably be borne out by your youtu.be example. The number of viewers will usually vastly exceed the number of likes and dislikes. The probable reason, because most people dgaf. They're not discontent, and don't enjoy the content enough to rate the effort of giving a thumbs up. They are apathetic at worst and content at best. 

DE's stats will show how many people attempted and succeeded with each challenge. That's a great metric of how many people were willing to give it a shot and how many actually found it unpleasant enough to simply avoid. Neat huh? 

And I think that your memory of the way feedback was, doesn't quite mesh with reality. But you're right, nobody need berate people for having or expressing an opinion, that's why some of us are disagreeing rationally based on the facts and figures, regardless of how many times some people attack us or try to suggest that we stop commenting. Not that someone like you would ever try to suggest that others who disagree with you not comment, right? 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-04-17 at 6:12 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Flase. 

Every alert came with conditions that needed to be met to earn the reward. Every event required some level of participation to earn those goodies. 

Please stop claiming otherwise. It's pretty ridiculous. 

I claim "false" on your "false". Old alert system rewards repeated. You missed one? Well it WILL cycle. It may have been annoying to not get it the first time around, but besides some statistical outliers (that I just KNOW you will cite because you just cannot resist the urge to be "that guy", can you?), most people eventually got the limited items offered by alerts.

Not the same with uniques. It is now "get them while the getting is good"

I really would avoid running that fast with your high horse. While technically your claim is correct,functionally you are wrong, because his original statement is "you can do it at your own pace and still get the stuff". And that IS absolutely correct.

Edited by random__noob
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19 minutes ago, random__noob said:

I claim "false" on your "false". Rewards repeated. You missed one? Well it WILL cycle. It may have been annoying to not get it the first time around, but besides some statistical outliers (that I just KNOW you will cite because you just cannot resist the urge to be "that guy", can you?), most people eventually got the limited items offered by alerts.

Not the same with uniques. It is now "get them while the getting is good"

And I reject your claim as in it you acknowledge that you earned no rewards for the ones that you did not participate in, depending instead on "it will turn up again in the future".

Regarding the "uniques", do you mean excal prime and the founders package? 

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3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Try checking voter turnout as a fraction of registered voters. Plato and Aristotle both remarked on democracy as a corrupt form of government, as it favours whomsoever shouts the loudest. 

And that'll probably be borne out by your youtu.be example. The number of viewers will usually vastly exceed the number of likes and dislikes. The probable reason, because most people dgaf. They're not discontent, and don't enjoy the content enough to rate the effort of giving a thumbs up. They are apathetic at worst and content at best. 

DE's stats will show how many people attempted and succeeded with each challenge. That's a great metric of how many people were willing to give it a shot and how many actually found it unpleasant enough to simply avoid. Neat huh? 

And I think that your memory of the way feedback was, doesn't quite mesh with reality. But you're right, nobody need berate people for having or expressing an opinion, that's why some of us are disagreeing rationally based on the facts and figures, regardless of how many times some people attack us or try to suggest that we stop commenting. Not that someone like you would ever try to suggest that others who disagree with you not comment, right? 

 

As far as Plato and Aristotle go, while they're not wrong, I defy you to find a form of government that isn't corrupt, we work with what we have.

As for there are more viewers that don't interact at all rather than like or dislike or post, sure, but that wasn't at all the point, you said that feedback (that thing that happens when someone is not apathetic enough to actually communicate) will be in general always be more negative than positive, and I said there's no evidence for that, and one of the biggest things we could attempt to figure out the logic of that statement seems to favor the opposite.

As to your statement of challenge completion being a metric of reception: No, that's ridiculous, plenty of people will accidentally complete challenges without specifically attempting to, for one, and plenty of others will dislike it but do it for the rewards, this provides very little insight into the playerbases opinion on the system.

And as for the last statement, I know you're attempting to turn my argument back upon me, but as has been proven time and again, you lack reading comprehension, I've never said you shouldn't post or comment, go reread my statements, I've said, over and over since the beginning, expressing your opinion on a topic is what we're here for, I've said it over and over, here are some examples that may illustrate my opinion on what is helpful here:

I like the nightwave system, it's perfect for me as it is. -- Good!
I don't like the nightwave system, I'd change these things about it, or get rid of it entirely. --Equally Good!
I disagree with the guy above me, I like the way these things are, they are enjoyable because of x reason. --Still fine
The guy above me is wrong and shouldn't feel the way he does, he's whiny and his opinions don't matter. -- This is you, and this is not helpful.
 

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1 hour ago, Sylonus said:

As far as Plato and Aristotle go, while they're not wrong, I defy you to find a form of government that isn't corrupt, we work with what we have.

Not a corrupt government, a corrupt "form" of government. Aristotle proposed a constitutional Republic as a "true" government as a contrast to democracy. 

1 hour ago, Sylonus said:

As for there are more viewers that don't interact at all rather than like or dislike or post, sure, but that wasn't at all the point, you said that feedback (that thing that happens when someone is not apathetic enough to actually communicate) will be in general always be more negative than positive, and I said there's no evidence for that, and one of the biggest things we could attempt to figure out the logic of that statement seems to favor the opposite.

No. You need to go back and read what you quoted again. If I said that many people who are content are nonvocal in their own contentedness, saying "look at this example of people giving positive feedback more often than negative feedback" doesn't actually address what I said in any way. It would, if likes were almost as great as views for the majority of the videos, but that's just not the case. 

1 hour ago, Sylonus said:

As to your statement of challenge completion being a metric of reception: No, that's ridiculous, plenty of people will accidentally complete challenges without specifically attempting to, for one, and plenty of others will dislike it but do it for the rewards, this provides very little insight into the playerbases opinion on the system.

Any challenges that you "accidentally complete" are obviously ones that you were going to have completed regardless. And if you dislike but are willing to do the challenge, then it's pretty obvious that you were definitely willing and able to complete it. Any challenge that I was unwilling to complete, I didn't do. The hunting comes to mind because I don't like "match the sound" challenges and go out of my way to not do them. The same applies to the ones I was unable to, like the first ayatan statue one, as I just didn't have the empty statues and wasn't going to buy any. DE will be able to see how many people weren't willing and able to get the challenges done. 

 

1 hour ago, Sylonus said:

And as for the last statement, I know you're attempting to turn my argument back upon me, but as has been proven time and again, you lack reading comprehension, I've never said you shouldn't post or comment, go reread my statements, I've said, over and over since the beginning, expressing your opinion on a topic is what we're here for, I've said it over and over, here are some examples that may illustrate my opinion on what is helpful here:

You're going to need to make up your mind, it's either I'm trying to turn your own argument against you, or you didn't make the argument. It can't be both. 😉

1 hour ago, Sylonus said:

I like the nightwave system, it's perfect for me as it is. -- Good!
I don't like the nightwave system, I'd change these things about it, or get rid of it entirely. --Equally Good!
I disagree with the guy above me, I like the way these things are, they are enjoyable because of x reason. --Still fine
The guy above me is wrong and shouldn't feel the way he does, he's whiny and his opinions don't matter. -- This is you, and this is not helpful.

No the first 3 are fine. 

But your fourth is a bald faced attempt at a strawman attack on someone who is disagreeing with you. 

Let me propose a different version of 3 and 4, and hopefully a 5 that will make it a bit clearer. 

I disagree with the guy above me, I hate the way these things are, they are bad. I hate them for x reason. --Still fine, 

The guy above me is wrong because x is based on something that is obviously false, here's the math/facts that shows that it's wrong. So if that's why they are claiming to hate it, something is wrong with what they're claiming. --Still fine

REEEEEEEE WTFBBQLMAO you can't tell us how to feel, stop trying to berate people who are only bashing the game, that's why this thread is for, not for disagreeing with people and using maths. -- Not fine. Not helpful. Not me. 

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10 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Not a corrupt government, a corrupt "form" of government. Aristotle proposed a constitutional Republic as a "true" government as a contrast to democracy.

Again, reading comprehension, I said "form of government that is not corrupt" constitutional republics are no less corrupt because (among other reasons) representatives often do not actually represent the interests of the people they are supposed to represent, they represent their own to the detriment of those they're supposed to represent, or are paid to represent someone else's interests, all of which is irrelevant, because none of that is what this feedback thread is, it's more a town hall meeting if anything where residents speak their peace to the ones in charge.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No. You need to go back and read what you quoted again. If I said that many people who are content are nonvocal in their own contentedness, saying "look at this example of people giving positive feedback more often than negative feedback" doesn't actually address what I said in any way. It would, if likes were almost as great as views for the majority of the videos, but that's just not the case.

That's not at all true, you were trying to make the case that while the comments seemed to be mostly negative, that this doesn't necessarily represent actual sentiment in total, by saying that "the ones who dislike a thing tend to be more vocal/communicative than ones who like a thing, on average", and I said that this is often said, but I fail to see it backed up with any data, the only time I've seen data attempting to make any claim over this, seemed to conclude the opposite.

20 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Any challenges that you "accidentally complete" are obviously ones that you were going to have completed regardless. And if you dislike but are willing to do the challenge, then it's pretty obvious that you were definitely willing and able to complete it. Any challenge that I was unwilling to complete, I didn't do. The hunting comes to mind because I don't like "match the sound" challenges and go out of my way to not do them. The same applies to the ones I was unable to, like the first ayatan statue one, as I just didn't have the empty statues and wasn't going to buy any. DE will be able to see how many people weren't willing and able to get the challenges done. 

Just because you complete something in no way implies you like the system, even if people are willing to do it. If somehow a system was put into place that everyone who slapped themself in the face earned 20$, would the number of participants who slapped themself in the face prove they liked slapping themself in the face, or that people wanted 20$?
 

23 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You're going to need to make up your mind, it's either I'm trying to turn your own argument against you, or you didn't make the argument. It can't be both. 😉

It isn't that confusing, I'm making the argument that you're trying to invalidate other people's opinions, for example: "I don't like this because it feels like this.", and this is ridiculous, and you're somehow trying to state that this is the same as me trying to invalidate your opinion, it's not, as I keep saying, nothing wrong with expressing your opinion, and I bear no ill will towards you for voicing that, but it's insane to think that just because you like it, everyone else is wrong if they don't.

I'm not saying all your statements are like this, but enough of them are to point it out, there's nothing wrong with arguing facts with facts, but that isn't what you're doing a large portion of the time.

28 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

But your fourth is a bald faced attempt at a strawman attack on someone who is disagreeing with you. 

On 2019-04-01 at 2:04 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And again with the whole "I'm a victim being forced to do this"? Come on. You have the same choices as any of the rest of us.

On 2019-04-16 at 6:14 AM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You ever heard the phrase "you can please some of the people, all of the time; you can please all of the people, some of the time; but you can't please all of the people all of the time"? 

On 2019-04-02 at 11:18 AM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Mate, people have managed to complain about every single challenge.

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When i reached the lvl 30 of this Nightwave i was wondering till that point if it will give 50 creds every level... would be too much and i dont need that many Nintain (?)

For thoose who doesnt know, it gives 15 Wolf Cred every level after you reached the lvl30. So... i went back and check the credits we got during the first round of leveling and they are 6 of 50, so 300 Wolf Credits, "like" gaining 10 per level but NOT gaining 10 per level, 50 every certain ammount of levels. 

Well, that comes my point: one of the complains with the credits was "i used on that XXXX and the next week i got that skin i didnt know will come, and have to wait three levels to get more (wich should take no more than a week) but other times, even if you need only 5 Wolf Credits, you might have to wait two weeks (in the levels were the creds have five or six levels in between) to get the 5 creds you were missing. 

My sugestion: next Nightwave (if it keeps that name) give Creds every level with the awards we already got and add six other prices for the slots where credits were. Im not even asking GREAT awards for thoose slots, in fact, i dont care. Just give 10 Wolf Credits (probably wont be "Wolf" but whatever) and, in the end, you have delivered the same ammount but avoiding thoose moments where you wont gain a single credit for one or two weeks, weeks in what you cant buy ANYTHING unless you already have all the skins or were managing the credits. 

Nothing too crazy, i hope the next Nightwave have it in this way or something similar to avoid those holes when looking for XXXX Creds. 

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1 hour ago, Sylonus said:

Again, reading comprehension, I said "form of government that is not corrupt" constitutional republics are no less corrupt because (among other reasons) representatives often do not actually represent the interests of the people they are supposed to represent, they represent their own to the detriment of those they're supposed to represent, or are paid to represent someone else's interests, all of which is irrelevant, because none of that is what this feedback thread is, it's more a town hall meeting if anything where residents speak their peace to the ones in charge.

I'll let you go ahead and read what he said, so you can figure out why a constitutional Republic which has representatives that don't represent the citizens would be an oligarchy, which is another corrupt form of government. 

Also nobody was trying to compare this to either. You said that you've never seen statistics to suggest that the content are often nonvocal in their contentedness. I gave it as an example that would show you the figures you have never seen. Reading comprehension is a thing. 

1 hour ago, Sylonus said:

Just because you complete something in no way implies you like the system, even if people are willing to do it. If somehow a system was put into place that everyone who slapped themself in the face earned 20$, would the number of participants who slapped themself in the face prove they liked slapping themself in the face, or that people wanted 20$?

Do you know what people do when they really don't want to do something that they're not actually being forced to do? They don't do it. If you don't want to hit yourself in the face, you don't. If you don't want to hit yourself in the face for $20, you don't. If on the other hand you are willing and able to hit yourself in the face in order to get $20, you might. Keeping track of how many people tried, and completed the challenge would be a good metric of how many were both willing and able. If the number is significantly large compared to the general population, then you would be reasonably able to predict whether it will be well received by the majority of the population in the future. If the number is very small by comparison, then you can reasonably predict that it will not be well received. 

 

1 hour ago, Sylonus said:

It isn't that confusing, I'm making the argument that you're trying to invalidate other people's opinions, for example: "I don't like this because it feels like this.", and this is ridiculous, and you're somehow trying to state that this is the same as me trying to invalidate your opinion, it's not, as I keep saying, nothing wrong with expressing your opinion, and I bear no ill will towards you for voicing that, but it's insane to think that just because you like it, everyone else is wrong if they don't

It isn't confusing at all. Just that you made contradicting claims one after another. Either one could be true but not both. 

And I'm not trying to invalidate opinions. Like others, I have pointed out that some people are trying to present opinions as facts, but when presented as such are blatantly false. A common example of this would be:

"I'm being forced to do something I don't want to do."

That's not the same as "I really don't want to do these challenges in order to get the rewards". That's an opinion and is perfectly fine mAt most I'd ask "well what sort of challenges would you like to see" if someone said this. But claims that we are forced to attempt any challenge that we don't want to do, are blatantly false. Furthermore, claims that we were never required to meet the conditions of the alerts/past events to get the rewards, are also blatantly false. Every single time we skipped an alert or didn't participate, we weren't given the rewards for completion. That's indisputable, but there are many who are falsely claiming otherwise. Repeatedly. 

 

As for your quotes, the first one was in response to your bald faced strawman attack on someone disagreeing with you. That is what you did. 

The second was in response to someone who apparently chose to do every challenge, and capture many fugitives, and repeatedly claimed that they were being "forced to do things". In that case ESO waves. It also happens to be the person who actually attacked another person who had positive things to say about nightwave, claiming that they were lying about their sleep schedule, and kept claiming that the victim was trying to promote unhealthy behaviour. We weren't ever forced to do all of the challenges. It's also a person who repeatedly refused to name even a single in-game activity that they enjoy doing when asked by multiple people. I suppose that you innocently missed all of that, it happens. But perhaps you can show that we were forced to participate against our will? Perhaps at gunpoint? Because if not, then the statement that we're not being forced to do anything, stands as true. 

The third was in response to someone who suggested that DE make "all of the challenges fun so we would want to get to tier 30 faster". It's not possible to please everyone all of the time as the quote says. People have demanded more hour long survivals, and others have demanded that those not happen anymore. The quote also preceded two paragraphs where I first explained why no challenge would make everyone happy, and the second where I explained why having us want to rush to 30, wouldn't actually be a good thing. The first paragraph contained the following: "We've had people who seem to actively dislike and avoid the vast majority of the game, one even repeatedly refused to name even a single in-game activity that they found enjoyable." I mention this because it directly relates to your last quote. That's not an attack on anyone based on the opinion that they're expressing, is it? 

The last quote is in response to someone repeatedly claiming to be "forced to do things" and demanding "AT LEAST 30 CHALLENGES" (capitals as in their suggestion) to choose between, so that they can tailor their choices to their own goals. It is a fragment of: "Mate, people have managed to complain about every single challenge. Even the dailies have had people demand to know why it's a thing to be rewarded for killing 150 enemies.

It was followed by: "The system already allows us to pick and choose from the available tasks each week. I've skipped quite a bit of stuff since the start. We need 30k standing out of a possible 43k a week. We can skip between 3 and 9 missions a week safely, if we choose wisely. 

If part of the purpose is to lure us out of our comfort zones, the mechanic you propose would negate that totally, wouldn't it?"

What part of that is me telling anyone that their opinion is invalid? 

 

Maybe instead of looking for things that you could possibly take offense to based on who said them, you could actually try to address the points that were made?

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Maybe instead of looking for things that you could possibly take offense to based on who said them, you could actually try to address the points that were made

Maybe try getting off your high horse and realize that none of your responses are adding to a fruitful discourse? Seriously, you've been going on this thread with your faulty reasoning for pages on pages on pages, and the only person who believes you're making any sense is you.

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Posted (edited)

I have seen lots of great suggestions that would totally please everyone except that one guy, I won't name names...

1: Creds every level in smaller amounts. This could involve removing the larger cred bundles from the tier reward pool, or not. It could work fine either way, but personally I like the idea of having the per tier trickle and a few larger bundles of creds in the tier rewards.

2:  A max amount of standing per week, with a selection of tasks that is double or triple that amount in total. So no one feels they must do everything, because it wouldn't even be possible to. You choose the tasks that suit your preference. Then also, if you are locked out of some tasks, no big deal, you have other options and aren't locked out of the standing.

3: Players who fail to gain max standing in a given week will have increased max standing in the next week. So they have a 1 week window to make up for it by doing additional tasks (see point 2 above).

4: Event creds persist from one event to the next, or are converted to platinum at a suitable exchange rate.

5: Event spawns like the fugitives should be worth more standing so they don't feel like such a nuisance. This could be balanced by reducing their spawn rate. Also standing gained via such spawns should not count against max standing per week as outlined in point 2 above.

6: Event bosses should have better drop tables than the wolf does. He is such a pita to fight, and all too often, all for nothing.

7: Bring back alerts in an improved form to fill the gap for people who simply can not benefit from events requiring months long commitments. No reason that alerts can't live side by side with nightwave, more content is better than less content, and they increased the sense of a living universe and added to immersion.

8: Have tier rewards be player selected from the pool each tier (once received, rewards will be removed from the pool). I realize it sounds controversial but I think it would be great, and it would address the sense of this being a list of chores and just more senseless grind on top of a already grindy game.

The main argument against point 8 is that players will just take the umbral forma, and be done with it, and it will decrease the value and rarity of umbral forma. This is nonsense though. Almost all players who where here for this event, and wanted that umbral forma got it. If some players wanted it and failed to get it, then that is no fun for them, and they are probably a statistical outlier anyway. At the end of the day, this event basically gave everyone who wanted it umbral forma. Making it the last reward did not substantially effect its rarity. There being only a single umbral forma rewarded, that is what makes it rare, and that wouldn't change.

Players will continue to participate even after grabbing the best rewards that they most want, for the creds, nitain, potatoes, cosmetics, and other offerings, and they'll end up picking up the other rewards along the way too.

The only real effect point 8 would have, would be to take the pressure off, which would go a long ways towards making this seem less like lists of chores and more like a really fun and rewarding event that you can get as much out of as you want to, but don't feel you have to.

9: I have seen many other great ideas presented here too, and unfortunately someone has been working very hard to obscure them beneath piles of contrarian nonsense... Some of the points above have been presented by others within these many pages, so while I can't recall who first presented them, I'm not trying to take credit for them.

Edited by Arc5in
typo
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On 2019-04-17 at 3:24 AM, Test-995 said:

 "we shouldn't have to do what we don't want to do in warframe"

You don't.  Show me a build that requires umbral forma to function well.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

You don't.  Show me a build that requires umbral forma to function well.

Sorry for insufficient word, please add "to get everything" in the end.

Yes, it would sound crazy, but it was how this game is, in my opinion. (or experience)

I won't really say anything if they made umbral forma plat purchasable.

Edited by Test-995

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