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What do we want for raid?


angias
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1 hour ago, SenariousNex said:

Because it gives something to look up to and forward to. Casual pick up and play content is great, but if it is all there is, the game feels very luke-warm. Currently there is no feeling in warframe when you are looking at another player and say: "Holy S#&$ that guy is a god", because there is no content that cannot be cleared by a random group that is running a random build.  Eidolons come close, but it just becomes a race of how fast can you can cheese it and how many times you can do it before sun comes up. That is a grind, raids are not supposed to be a grind you spam over and over, that is why they have weekly timelocks in mmorpgs.

 

So you want DE to spend their resources and time to come up with content that caters to the ego trip and epeen crowd ?  Content literally for the sake of "Look at me, what I have and what I can do. You can't do it haha !" ?

The raids are on a weekly cooldown in other games because it's a way to prolong the playtime to get the gear. In other games, crafting stuff doesn't take hours to days. The other reason being that you have to set a day just to raid, it's a timesink and therefore it should be limited.

WF is a casual game. No, really it is. It's grind stuff overtime at your own pace. There has never been such competitive stuff in it such as "world first boss clears" or such.

No matter what tryhards say, but really, at the end of the day nobody will care what the other person has. You'll maybe get a second look now and then, but you aren't going to be worshipped or anything like that.

Edited by KiteoHatto
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2 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

 

These are the exact people "I" dont want in warframe lol. They are the guys who find out all the mechanics, exploit them and then eventually show it to the rest of the playerbase. Why does that sound familiar...

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33 minutes ago, KiteoHatto said:

These are the exact people "I" dont want in warframe lol. They are the guys who find out all the mechanics, exploit them and then eventually show it to the rest of the playerbase. Why does that sound familiar...

You don't want cool, passionate veterans that help out noobs on every occassion in Warframe? Ok.

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21 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

You seem way more toxic than your imaginary elitists, but alright.

I guess you can't concede the discussion verbally, but I understood that anyway. Thanks for agreeing with me! 🙂

It actually pretty easy. The people who focus on raids are typically the type who Gate off the rest.

I primarily Pub. always because I feel its better way to experience a game. I can directly aid and receive aid from randoms when need it by directly meeting them. Sure its totally random but if i see some struggling i can Provide aid to better the current mission. We will both benefit. I'm not worried about failure.

Just last week while doing fractures there was a Gara. About 20ish min in I realized that he was only building low walls that was not really helping in anyway given the terrain. I asked if he was a New Gara. He replied with "somewhat, yeah." So i told him to better use the walls he should Jump first. He Was surprised that it was even possible. Up until that point noone has really said anything if it did not relate where were fractures.

And you don't know how often i have to tell Frost players to pop their bubbles when not in use and to not spread the around all over the place. only for some of this to apparently be surprised it was a thing.

 

Most Raiders are horrendously Toxic. Set up Unbelievably high requirements and High expectations of how one should play Should they even advertise it to begin with. Most Raiders Stay within bubbles of other Mix-Maxed Meta Raiders. Sherpa's are a very rare commodity. My hate for Raids and Raiders gone From my experience of such players. I played a LOT of MMO's All primarily as a Solo, I made a few parties but Largely I never tend to stick around in groups for long. I prefer to meet up with random people  in the fields or dungeons and group together for a given task or just because we where headed in the same direction.  It wasn't so bad 10 years ago. but recently about 6-ish years ago the Raiding community has only gotten more toxic and gated.

Edited by Evil.Eye
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39 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

You don't want cool, passionate veterans that help out noobs on every occassion in Warframe? Ok.

Gladd and his clan of tryhards are passionate veterans that help players ?

What are you on about ?

 

Do you understand why WF has a friendly community compared to other games ? Because there is no competitive nonsense in it. Nobody is fighting over loot, gear or some achievements. Sure there are some contests on the forums with unique titles and stuff, but thats nothing.

Edited by KiteoHatto
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14 minutes ago, KiteoHatto said:

WF has a friendly community

Now I should post your previous gif, huh?

Warframe does NOT have a friendly community. It's a nice meme and all, but it's a meme, not reality. Examples:

1. Any feedback at all is always drowned in a sea of "nuh-uh you don't get to complain, we are paragons of virtue and authority, even though we are doing exactly what we tell you not to do" whiners.

2. Any discussion is a bunch of hypocrites and ignorants trying to shut down people who actually know what they are talking about.

3. Trolls keep getting away with posting trash all the time. Whenever you dare to call them out, it's your bad apparently.

4. There is a reason why moderation of in-game chats is so strict, because people treat those chats like their toilet during diarhorrea.

5. You. How can I consider you friendly, when you literally said you HATE a group people based on nothing but stereotypes. Lmao, dude read your own posts. They ooze with baseless "A friend of my friend told me so, so it's true" accusations.

You talk about gatekeeping? Excuse me? You are THE gatekeeper:

1 hour ago, KiteoHatto said:

These are the exact people "I" dont want in warframe lol.

 

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28 minutes ago, Evil.Eye said:

I primarily Pub. always because I feel its better way to experience a game. I can directly aid and receive aid from randoms when need it by directly meeting them. Sure its totally random but if i see some struggling i can Provide aid to better the current mission. We will both benefit. I'm not worried about failure.

Just last week while doing fractures there was a Gara. About 20ish min in I realized that he was only building low walls that was not really helping in anyway given the terrain. I asked if he was a New Gara. He replied with "somewhat, yeah." So i told him to better use the walls he should Jump first. He Was surprised that it was even possible. Up until that point noone has really said anything if it did not relate where were fractures.

And you don't know how often i have to tell Frost players to pop their bubbles when not in use and to not spread the around all over the place. only for some of this to apparently be surprised it was a thing.

Nice, but it does not pertain to the discussion, unless you're trying to make yourself some sort of authority on being kind to people.

Protip: I'm not that easy to fool, ok, you use arguments, or you can go away.

28 minutes ago, Evil.Eye said:

Most Raiders are horrendously Toxic.

Because you said so. Thanks for telling me you had nothing to add and are hating a bunch of people for no reason but your "hunch" or something you read on the internet. No need to respond, I won't see it.

Edited by HugintheCrow
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1 hour ago, KiteoHatto said:

 

So you want DE to spend their resources and time to come up with content that caters to the ego trip and epeen crowd ?  Content literally for the sake of "Look at me, what I have and what I can do. You can't do it haha !" ?

The raids are on a weekly cooldown in other games because it's a way to prolong the playtime to get the gear. In other games, crafting stuff doesn't take hours to days. The other reason being that you have to set a day just to raid, it's a timesink and therefore it should be limited.

WF is a casual game. No, really it is. It's grind stuff overtime at your own pace. There has never been such competitive stuff in it such as "world first boss clears" or such.

No matter what tryhards say, but really, at the end of the day nobody will care what the other person has. You'll maybe get a second look now and then, but you aren't going to be worshipped or anything like that.

This reasoning is why WoW introduced LFR versions of their raids. It essentially insured all players could experienced raid content, which made many people just hate WoW for becoming casual. MMOs need an endgame which is challenging. It's not about the ego, it's about having something to achieve. Not everyone likes their games easy and casual, some people like to commit and "tryhard". Maybe that's not for you, but I feel there there is already enough content in this game that is casual. 

Also there was a time when there were hardcore players in warframe, massive clans like Orion and V alliance but they all left when the only piece of hardcore content The Dark Sectors were taken out.

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30 minutes ago, SenariousNex said:

MMOs need an endgame which is challenging.

Endless games need user-created-content (UCC), that's all. They need a curated mechanism to siphon select player creativity into content so the game can keep up with the most aggressively committed players in a way that doesn't break the developer's cost/benefit ratio.

PvP is user-created-content by direct competition. It is the most toxic form of UCC because competition always begets exclusionism by definition, you just need to look at sports or games that are 100% competitive to see that. Strict rules of engagement can mitigate that toxic behavior somewhat, but not totally.

Raids are UCC via social PvP where all of the "content" is in the social behavior of assembling and controlling the team. The route to success is excluding anyone who brings down your chance of success or speed of sucess or by expending effort in ensuring that all players perform their social role via instruction. All games eventually run out of the critical mass of people willing to expend effort to teach, sometimes the content launches without that critical mass.

PvP/Raids are not needed at all, User-created-content is.

Edited by SilentMobius
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31 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

Now I should post your previous gif, huh?

Warframe does NOT have a friendly community. It's a nice meme and all, but it's a meme, not reality. Examples:

1. Any feedback at all is always drowned in a sea of "nuh-uh you don't get to complain, we are paragons of virtue and authority, even though we are doing exactly what we tell you not to do" whiners.

2. Any discussion is a bunch of hypocrites and ignorants trying to shut down people who actually know what they are talking about.

3. Trolls keep getting away with posting trash all the time. Whenever you dare to call them out, it's your bad apparently.

4. There is a reason why moderation of in-game chats is so strict, because people treat those chats like their toilet during diarhorrea.

5. You. How can I consider you friendly, when you literally said you HATE a group people based on nothing but stereotypes. Lmao, dude read your own posts. They ooze with baseless "A friend of my friend told me so, so it's true" accusations.

You talk about gatekeeping? Excuse me? You are THE gatekeeper:

 

I never posted any gifs...?

I was playing destiny 2 and was part of the clan who were very raid active. Honestly, the whole raid experience is time consuming and ends up being toxic because people get fed up of different things which happen during the raids, be it learning stages or speed runs. That's how i know about Gladd and his clan, his influence is pretty big as "record breakers" in that bungie's franchise, but there are also grey areas of exploits and skips being used to achieve said things.

Why would you want that in WF ?

At your point of me being a gatekeeper lol.... im just a random player, been one for a while....but that's all I am. I have no influence whatsoever on what DE decides to do therefore how can I gatekeep something that isn't even a thing ?

However, if they do release your version of the raids then elitists will definitely gatekeep the rest of the community, just like in the old times. "Raid LF EXP ONLY (must have X, Y, Z profile will be checked) to run X, Y and Z"

Slightly offtopic, but you know those "elite trading clans" that try and rip people off as much as they can ?  They are the tryhard trader version of the raiding guys.

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19 minutes ago, SenariousNex said:

what content, do you want us to start a sewing circle? 

Mission creation, map generation. Have them accessible via the simulacrum for specific Simaris rewards then have DE take the most interesting and make them official.

City of Heroes did something similar.

Or tower-defense like stuff where you can build a map then have the AI invade with progressing difficulty, punctuated with bossfights. where you are supported in defending by your map design and defenses and optionally other players.

Have weapons and the suchlike as mid-tier rewards and specific/exotic cosmetics at the higher-tier rewards. Maybe have non-baro access to primed mods, but nothing MR unique to the tryhard level.

There are lots of possibilities that are cost-effective and endless, rather than the often-repeated MMO route of a vastly lengthened alternate-advancement grind that suddenly pivots the game into social PvP.

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10 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Mission creation, map generation. Have them accessible via the simulacrum for specific Simaris rewards then have DE take the most interesting and make them official.

City of Heroes did something similar.

Or tower-defense like stuff where you can build a map then have the AI invade with progressing difficulty, punctuated with bossfights. where you are supported in defending by your map design and defenses and optionally other players.

Have weapons and the suchlike as mid-tier rewards and specific/exotic cosmetics at the higher-tier rewards. Maybe have non-baro access to primed mods, but nothing MR unique to the tryhard level.

There are lots of possibilities that are cost-effective and endless, rather than the often-repeated MMO route of a vastly lengthened alternate-advancement grind that suddenly pivots the game into social PvP.

I wonder how well Warframe can pull off a Tower-Defense style mode. Perhaps similar to Sanctum 2.

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On 2019-03-21 at 11:25 PM, LupisV0lk said:

INB4 we are set back at square one and have elitists locking down "raids" because people don't know how to do them and said people are unable to do the raids in order to lean how to do them because of said elitists gatekeeping.

This has never been a thing in all of the time raids did exist. Ever hear of the raid school bus?

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6 hours ago, SenariousNex said:

Because it gives something to look up to and forward to. Casual pick up and play content is great, but if it is all there is, the game feels very luke-warm. Currently there is no feeling in warframe when you are looking at another player and say: "Holy S#&$ that guy is a god", because there is no content that cannot be cleared by a random group that is running a random build.  Eidolons come close, but it just becomes a race of how fast can you can cheese it and how many times you can do it before sun comes up. That is a grind, raids are not supposed to be a grind you spam over and over, that is why they have weekly timelocks in mmorpgs.

People are just going to cheese/rush and rerun ANY "endgame" content, so long as there is a reward for doing so.  That won't change no matter what game or what content is added.

And if you timegate it, it'll just result in people complaining like they did when Arcanes were moved to Eidolons, which are "gated" by day/night cycles...and that's not even 5 hours!  Imagine only being able to grind it out once a week AND having bad RNG?  It'd be a S***storm here!

Also, I believe this "issue", if indeed there truly IS one, is one of PERSPECTIVE, not actual game mechanics.

When I was a new player, I DID look at others like "they were gods".  I STILL do, at MR22, when I see people handle new bosses (like the Hydrolyst/Profit Taker) like they're nothing, while I'm stumbling over my feet learning how it's done.

Again, it's perspective.  You've simply mastered most of what there is to master.  That's why it's called MASTERY Rank.  That doesn't mean the content is bad, just that you've already risen to meet it.  That's the bittersweet truth of being "at the top".

I'm sure DE has -plenty- of new content coming that will keep pushing the envelope, but do not delude yourself into thinking that anything with a farmable reward at the end would ever NOT result in people just cheapening it to cheese tactics and spam.  Sadly, that's a player issue, not a dev issue.  

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6 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I'd like to see Raids have a procedural generation. The original raids were dull and outdated because once you played the Raid once, you'd played it a hundred times. Every mission was the same: bring a few power cells down hallways, stand on this pad and melee block, walk along, unload damage, here's your medal. It was boring and tedious once you knew how it worked, because you always knew every little thing that needed to be done and the best way to do it.

I'd like to see new Raids have an element of surprise to them, and I believe they could do this through gearing procedural generation to randomly chain goals together into a larger mission. Like Sorties, but with all those objectives in one long game. A Trial might start with a Mobile Defense to hack security consoles. When you finish, Lotus instructs you to infiltrate the facility and it's a Spy mission to track the location of an elite Corpus overseer; OR the Lotus tags a Warden who has that information and it's Capture time. Then you proceed to Assassinate the overseer. The idea behind this is that when you approach the mission, subsequent stages in the mission are randomized and you don't know what's waiting for you until you get there. This means that a successful Tenno will need to be ready for anything, and be able to use their Arsenal in ways they might not be expecting, all at a moment's notice. It also means that when you're assembling a team and designating jobs, you won't be asking someone to  play a max-range Vauban for cheesing Stage 2, you'll be asking someone to play a frame they're knowledgeable of in case CC is needed. Crafting squads would, ideally, be less about obligation and more about contingency.

1000000x THIS!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

Mission creation, map generation. Have them accessible via the simulacrum for specific Simaris rewards then have DE take the most interesting and make them official.

City of Heroes did something similar.

Or tower-defense like stuff where you can build a map then have the AI invade with progressing difficulty, punctuated with bossfights. where you are supported in defending by your map design and defenses and optionally other players.

Have weapons and the suchlike as mid-tier rewards and specific/exotic cosmetics at the higher-tier rewards. Maybe have non-baro access to primed mods, but nothing MR unique to the tryhard level.

There are lots of possibilities that are cost-effective and endless, rather than the often-repeated MMO route of a vastly lengthened alternate-advancement grind that suddenly pivots the game into social PvP.

I like this response, cuz it's actually trying to come up with alternatives and explains it's point of view well. Instead of just repeating "Raid people bad!!!"

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17 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

People are just going to cheese/rush and rerun ANY "endgame" content, so long as there is a reward for doing so.  That won't change no matter what game or what content is added.
 

Not if you make it difficult enough and patch out all the obvious cheese.

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1 minute ago, SenariousNex said:

Not if you make it difficult enough and patch out all the obvious cheese.

HA! Oh to be young and naive...

I'm kidding around, but seriously, no amount of patching fixes that. Players, in this community AND others, always seem to work EXTRA hard to BREAK things.  The more you tell them to color in the lines, the more wildly they scribble all over the paper. 

Personally? Not a fan of cheese. Defeats the whole purpose of playing, to me.  I don't play to "win", I just play for the fun of the act of playing.  Like, I'm just thrilled, after a long day of working with clients, taking care of my home, hitting the gym, etc...that I have a game to sit down to and unwind, costing me nothing money-wise, and very easy to pick up and put back down.

I actually used to livestream on twitch.  Started to get a decent following, but tbh the mindset of "always minmax!  Always use this meta!  You have to do x, y, z!" etc... it just took the joy and relaxation out of playing, for me, and I stopped streaming altogether.  I want to play Warframe to unwind, not to have 3rd job.

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6 minutes ago, SenariousNex said:

Not if you make it difficult enough and patch out all the obvious cheese.

But that does not solve the problem. In Fact that only makes it worse. This is what Encourages MinMaxing. These people don't play to have fun they play to Absolutely demolish and if you keep raising the bar to sate them that only makes it worse for everyone else. It even worse when you have it on a Timegate.

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