A Proposed Atlas Rework To Ship With His Prime

[DConagher]

Greetings! I've played Atlas for basically the entire time I've played warframe- He's something like 80% of my in game playtime.

I've always really enjoyed being able to smash things into orbit with a proper built Landslide, but recently with more and more of the games content being untargetable by warframe abilities, and with as hard as he would be for most people to get (assuming you don't buy him early on), he's lost just a little bit of that luster he had originally, especially in comparison to frames like Chroma, Rhino, or even Nidus (Nidus being probably the best comparison to Atlas of that list, and somewhat of the inspiration for 1 or 2 of these ideas)

I've really enjoyed the frame, but with Melee 3.0's full changes looming on the horizon, I have a few worries about our good friend the earth brawler. I can however think of a few decent solutions all summed up in a singular rework concept.

To begin with, while I don't have experience with Khora or Gara, I know their respective abilities, and that they also have "exalted" abilities that scale off melee mods, while not being  truly "exalted".
While this has benefits, such as in the form of Riven Mods, it also has its downsides, in that it cannot really benefit from any of 3.0's changes (You can't slam with targeting abilities, as a quick example) and sortie missions with any version of Primary or Secondary only prevent these frames from using those damaging abilities to any degree of effectiveness. 

If I could get any feedback from Gara or Khora players in that regard, or if there are more Atlas players out there I have yet to run into, feedback would be appreciated, but personally I believe that Atlas's Landslide could benefit greatly from being exalted.

Now, hold on a minute- Making Atlas's Landslide exalted would be a nerf...wouldn't it? I mean, you'd lose the benefits of Rivens, and technically speaking, some of the melee combo to an extent! Assuming you even keep the 0-2-4-4-4... etc combo, how would it even work? You'd have to basically reprogram the ability from scratch!

Indeed. In the long run, this would dramatically change Atlas as a warframe. 

My proposed concepts would alter his playstyle to put more emphasis on the Earth aspect, rather than the Brawler.

For starters, his reworked passive: Monolith works fine as it is. This is the simple part, and one I'd hope to see even if the frame wasn't totally reworked:
-Uncap rubble
-Give Atlas a small % weapon damage increase per piece of rubble (Even something like .1% per rubble would be sufficient, or perhaps even a bit high) 
-A new functionality for Rubble is that an enemy (killed by Atlas, by any means) will drop 10 rubble, while a Petrified Enemy (killed by anyone, by any means) will drop 50 rubble on death, 100 if they are killed by Landslide.
-For countermeasure, increasing the drain to something like 7 Rubble/s, and have duration affect the drain rate.

In terms of Atlas himself:
-20 more base hp
However
-Remove his shields.
-Lower his energy to 200 at max 

The idea behind this is that with no shields to buffer his health, Rubble will play more of an active role in keeping him alive, while also giving him an increase in base survivability. By giving him 10 Rubble per enemy killed but increasing the drain, the goal would be to allow Atlas use of his reconfigured 1st ability AND give him an easy way to keep his rubble tended to, but not to any real degree of growing it. 

Now, for the rest of the rework, it'd be a bit more complicated. 

(The rest of the proposed rework is based of the above Rubble configurations and base stat alterations)

With his 1, Landslide, being changed into an exalted (assuming this whole idea would be implemented), it would become an actual exalted weapon
-Separately modifiable, with its own Stance
-No longer needing to outright target enemies
However: 
-It would not longer benefit from Rivens
-It would be turned off by a Nullifier effect

 The best comparison to it would be something like Baruuk's Desert Wind (The ability could cost rubble to activate, and it would be a Fist stance- even if it was just a mimic'd Gaia's Tragedy, it'd work for this purpose- The AoE on the punch scaling with range would be nice to have considering the build some people go for is a range-focused uppercut)

It would retain its current base damage stats (350 at max rank, 100% of it impact), and could have an (increased) critical chance and critical damage of 20% and 2.5x, with the same 5% status chance. It would now however be affected by Attack Speed, and would have a base attack speed of .9. Atlas would gain invulnerability ONLY while attacking with Landslide. 
-The 0,2,4 combo COULD still remain in place when it comes to the actual stance combo options- have the later hits of the combo deal increased damage.
-The Augment, Path of Statues, would probably need a rework as well
-Range, Strength, Duration, and Efficiency would continue to affect this Ability. The base cost to activate Landslide would be 25 Rubble, and the drain could then be a 5 Rubble/s (This would stack with Rubble's new passive decay of 7/s, for a total of 12 rubble/s decay if you aren't gaining rubble, again, at base)

The goal here would mainly be updating Atlas with Melee 3.0- With the changes that could be coming to the combo multiplier, as well as just the general purpose reworks to melee itself, updating these target abilities like Landslide would keep them interesting along with the rest of 3.0.

Petrify would become his new 2, and cost 35 energy. The rest of the ability would remain unchanged
-(Ore Gaze, the augment, could use a minor buff in terms of its chance to grant additional loot, but this would not be required)

Simple enough, more so to justify the increased energy cost of what was his former 2, and the slight decrease in cost for this ability.

His 3, Tectonics, would see the greatest change of his kit
-The ability would now cost 60 energy base.
-You could now place up to 2/3/4/5 walls (The augment could add 25% damage to the ability, and/or increase this cap by a further 3). You would not be able to activate the ability when you have the max number of walls placed. 
-The walls would no longer be able to be rolled at the enemy, but instead would break upon being hit by Landslide, causing X- Impact/Blast (60/40% weighting) damage (affected by strength) in a 10m radius (affected by range) around the wall
-Duration would now affect the ability: Walls would last 11/14/17/20 seconds at base.
-When the walls are broken by landslide, or expire, they drop 50 rubble, 75 if broken by landslide. Walls broken by damage do not generate rubble.

This change is mainly meant to fix Atlas's worst ability- In the current game, Tectonics is really only useful when placed in front of a mobile defense console, and MANY frames can do that job better. This would take a lackluster defensive ability and rework it into an interesting offensive one.

His 4, Rumblers, would receive a fair degree of change as well
-It would now cost Rubble to activate (100, not affected by Efficiency)
-You could now charge the Rumblers to give them increased HP and deal increased damage, but cost additional rubble (Up to a cap of say 250 total rubble, for 1.5x stats)
-Duration would now no longer affect the Rumblers, but recasting the ability will still destroy the Rumblers that are currently alive, allowing you to spawn new Rumblers by casting the ability again.
-Rumblers would no longer drop Rubble on death.
-Strength would no longer affect the Health and Armor of the Rumblers, but would still affect the damage dealt and overall size of the Rumblers, and health and armor mods would still affect the Hp and Armor of the Rumblers.
-Shield mods would no longer affect Rumblers (as, they would no longer affect Atlas with this rework)

This change would mainly be due to the addition of damage from rubble. As it stands in current gamestate, a high efficiency Zenurik Atlas can generate rubble with his 4 pretty much on demand. By removing the rubble generation, and making his Rumblers require rubble, you'd be paying a bit of damage and armor to create 2 decently large bodies that would aid you in combat, gaining damage both from strength and rubble, while having durability from your hp and armor mods.

All in all, Atlas is in a fine place currently. His Petrify and Landslide are both amazing abilities as they are, and even if he isn't changed, he'll still be the frame I play the most, in all likelihood.

The purpose behind this long-winded (and, hopefully balanced) suggestion would be to give Atlas something to do with his 2, and to buff up his Rumblers to an extent, while giving Rubble more of a purpose in his kit.

If nothing else from this entire idea were to get implemented, I would be more than content with the small buff to Atlas himself, in the form of an uncapped Monolith that gives him a small damage boost per rubble, and a slight increase in health for no shields and a slight reduction in energy. It would majorly help him in content like the Plains of Eidolon and Fortuna, where the monsters of the open world are unable to be assailed by Warframe Abilities. It would make him a more interesting and versatile frame, without infringing too much on frames like Chroma and Rhino. 

Thank you for your time, and if you have any suggestions or comments, I'd love to hear them!

Edited March 21, 2019 by DConagher

[Shogunaut]

Imo, don't make the rubble decrease overtime but only decrease on taking damage. 

[Scruffel]

I was somewhat interested in your idea for making this thread for the worry of how Melee 3.0 may affect the current Melee Warframes, and it's definitely understandable. Even though I would rather wait for all phases to be actually released to determine if those frames got shafted or not, it's still good to make suggestions to improve them around it.

And to be honest, I don't like it. Not because this wouldn't be a better Atlas, but because it's not Atlas anymore. The Rubble change makes somewhat of some sense (even though the increased decay that can be changed with Duration doesn't), but the stat and Landslide changes are a completely different Warframe at this point. I like being able to instantly target and punch someone and continue a combo string that further increases my damage and reduces my energy to keep on going. Why change something that could be inferior because of the possible fact that Melee 3.0 might negatively affect the previous version (and it's practically a worse Hysteria too). It's also conflicting on how Atlas becomes a slightly Duration-based from these changes, yet he's not really a Warframe focused around it. Sure he benefits from it, but you could actually make a negative Duration build and be functional, can't say the same at all for this version. And I don't even know how removing shields would be a good thing for Atlas since Rubble heals for missing health, which means while constantly taking damage (which would be all the time especially in open world areas), you'd either never get armor or barely get anything. This is almost a completely different Warframe.

Honestly, if DE were to release Atlas Prime Access and make these changes (even if just the Landslide one), I would not only refuse to pay for the Access, but also probably stop playing Atlas too. I know this is just an idea, but it doesn't sound like a good one for me.

[DConagher]

.

Edited March 23, 2019 by DConagher

[DConagher]

On 2019-03-21 at 3:47 PM, Scruffel said:

es (even if just the Landslide one), I would not only refuse to pay for the Access, but also probably stop playing Atlas too. I know this is just an idea, but it doesn't sound like a good one for me.

Makes sense- And I run a negative duration build right now, so I can understand the hesitation there- Part of the reason I wanted Rumblers unaffected by duration XD. 
The main concern with 3.0 in general, and why I would favor a change to his 1, is for things you CAN'T target. The idea behind this idea was that Duration would still be useful, but running 12.5% duration would still have some slight downsides- Efficiency, however, would play less of a role in this build. He would still be a Strength and/or Range focused frame. With his 1 being exalted, if you did have it drain a LOT of rubble with a -duration build, you'd still have ways to generate far better than say, a -duration Baruuk. Also, depending on what changes occur with 3.0, you could feasibly still have a melee combo that sends you flying forward at things, just now without needing a valid target to hit.

Edited March 23, 2019 by DConagher

[Mu_Gera]

Uncapping rubble should be good enough with the decay, and making him immune to staggers on the ground aswell to fit the knockdown immunity.

You also missed the extra damage buff on petrify not being higher or modifiable as a good change for it, gotta remember that enemies are immune to procs while petrified.

[Scruffel]

11 hours ago, DConagher said:

Makes sense- And I run a negative duration build right now, so I can understand the hesitation there- Part of the reason I wanted Rumblers unaffected by duration XD. 
The main concern with 3.0 in general, and why I would favor a change to his 1, is for things you CAN'T target. The idea behind this idea was that Duration would still be useful, but running 12.5% duration would still have some slight downsides- Efficiency, however, would play less of a role in this build. He would still be a Strength and/or Range focused frame. With his 1 being exalted, if you did have it drain a LOT of rubble with a -duration build, you'd still have ways to generate far better than say, a -duration Baruuk. Also, depending on what changes occur with 3.0, you could feasibly still have a melee combo that sends you flying forward at things, just now without needing a valid target to hit.

The things you can't target aren't really a problem for Atlas because there aren't that many enemies that you can't target in the first place, with the only common one I can think of being are Nullifiers (depending on which Faction you are currently facing). Even then, you would have to tediously chip away at the bubble while hoping you don't melee combo into it or just skip the Exalted and just shoot at it. Almost every Warframe has to deal with this.

Also I don't think a negative duration build would have "slight" downsides if Duration effects the Rubble decay, because then it would increase (which is something you don't want). You see the problem with trying to change how a character is originally affected by its stats, you run the risk of forcing players to have to change their build, rather allowing them to expand them (which is why if you wanted Rumblers to not be affected by Duration anymore, why not just make all abilities not focus on it too then?). An idea for that, let's just say with Petrify, would be to add a 'Breakout' mechanic for those affected enemies, where maybe depending on their armor or health would cause them to chip themselves out the stone faster. Not reliant on Duration, more reliant on enemy type which allows the player to worry less about it.

And I can't believe that you would be able to manage a good amount of Rubble with a negative Duration build with that version of him. Let's do some quick math to think about it. Currently, if you have a negative Duration build, and have 1.2k Rubble, it would take 240 seconds or 4 minutes to go away without any Rubble addition or Nullifier interference. But with your current changes, 1.2k would go away in around 172 seconds or 2.9 minutes (new default Rubble decay), and with the new Landslide active: 100 seconds or 1 and a third of a minute; and of course possibly even faster with negative Duration. Plus, trying to even use Landslide with the increased decay and Rubble cost would also make it impossible to use when trying to start building Rubble, making the move barely able to use unless a large amount of Rubble is already built.

Now if Melee 3.0 might bring a new melee combo that does the exact same or feels similar to the current Landslide targeting, that would be fine, if it wasn't a replacement for it. I don't want to get rid of the instant targeting for the ability, because it would just be a nerf to it in the sight of trying to fix a non-issue.

[RolisxD]

All atlas needs is different 2nd ability and a buff to his ultimate, they should at least be able to cc enemies.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

On 2019-03-21 at 3:01 PM, Shogunaut said:

Imo, don't make the rubble decrease overtime but only decrease on taking damage. 

This is a good suggestion, I would like Petrify to synergize with his rumblers more for example giving them a speed + dmg boost when hitting Rumblers. Or making it so that they stay on the field for longer

[DConagher]

On 2019-03-23 at 11:14 PM, Scruffel said:

Now if Melee 3.0 might bring a new melee combo that does the exact same or feels similar to the current Landslide targeting, that would be fine, if it wasn't a replacement for it. I don't want to get rid of the instant targeting for the ability, because it would just be a nerf to it in the sight of trying to fix a non-issue.

Makes sense, and I see your point with those proposed numbers- although obviously those could be changed. Part of the reason for the concept of having duration matter for more than just having a 50 second petrify CC would be the concept of some new possibilities with Atlas, but having added decay AND landslide costing rubble could make that infeasible with negative duration (maybe just have landslide still cost energy, with increased gain and uncap and increased drain?). I would like to make an argument though that by uncapping rubble and having it be so much easier to attain passively, that perhaps the increased gain and stockpile may accommodate for the added drain. 

As for removing the fact its a targeting ability, and that it matters less due to the few enemies you can't target, the main idea behind this proposed rework was with the 3.0 changes altering melee- As it stands now, by comparison to say, Valkyr or Baruuk, Atlas simply landslides at the enemy for incredible damage. The proposed change, and especially with a proper built stance to go with it, would let you hopefully still have that targeting punch feel (or atleast a very controllable actions like Gaia's Tragedy's flips), while also letting you have new mobility options- Actual melee combo options instead of left right uppercut, and things that could synch well with 3.0 very well depending on what they change.

Pair that with again, while there aren't many things you can't target, those things are becoming increasingly important, and there are more of them (Profit Taker/Exploiter, the Eidolons), Or old bosses (Lephantis, (Shadow) Stalker now being untargetable for some reason, Saturn Six Wolf just being generally resistant to abilities) and so on and so on. Imagine actually being able to utilize these cool exalted abilities we have in warframe to up-end a hulking monstrosity 
 

[Scruffel]

3 hours ago, DConagher said:

Makes sense, and I see your point with those proposed numbers- although obviously those could be changed. Part of the reason for the concept of having duration matter for more than just having a 50 second petrify CC would be the concept of some new possibilities with Atlas, but having added decay AND landslide costing rubble could make that infeasible with negative duration (maybe just have landslide still cost energy, with increased gain and uncap and increased drain?). I would like to make an argument though that by uncapping rubble and having it be so much easier to attain passively, that perhaps the increased gain and stockpile may accommodate for the added drain. 

As for removing the fact its a targeting ability, and that it matters less due to the few enemies you can't target, the main idea behind this proposed rework was with the 3.0 changes altering melee- As it stands now, by comparison to say, Valkyr or Baruuk, Atlas simply landslides at the enemy for incredible damage. The proposed change, and especially with a proper built stance to go with it, would let you hopefully still have that targeting punch feel (or atleast a very controllable actions like Gaia's Tragedy's flips), while also letting you have new mobility options- Actual melee combo options instead of left right uppercut, and things that could synch well with 3.0 very well depending on what they change.

Pair that with again, while there aren't many things you can't target, those things are becoming increasingly important, and there are more of them (Profit Taker/Exploiter, the Eidolons), Or old bosses (Lephantis, (Shadow) Stalker now being untargetable for some reason, Saturn Six Wolf just being generally resistant to abilities) and so on and so on. Imagine actually being able to utilize these cool exalted abilities we have in warframe to up-end a hulking monstrosity 
 

I can see why you would want Duration to matter more (although Rumblers and even Landslide gain significant benefits from it), but you need to understand that it might not be ideal for a rework to change how a Warframe could be modded with downsides. You see, making Duration more present and necessary while also bringing in some negatives, brings a new problem with how people work around it. If you ignore it, it's a nerf because of the increased decay. If you still decided to reduce it, it's a significant nerf now. The only way to make sure it's not one, is to change your build. Also, I don't think making Rubble more easier to obtain and removing the cap would matter on the notion of whether or not it would still be easily feasible to build up to a large amount and at the same time being able to maintain a consistence amount (and considering the new decay and Rubble usage, most likely not).

And again, I wouldn't mind a Fist stance in general that can target like Landslide, I just don't want it to be a replacement due to how it would probably remove certain things that are good about the move already. Besides, I'm not bringing Atlas to Profit nor Eidolon because he's not really useful in those missions (it's not because I can't Landslide the bosses, it's because I know his whole kit doesn't entirely help). Also, I am pretty sure you can still target Stalker with Landslide, I've definitely done it recently.