Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

The February Weekend Wars Showed that Relics are a Disorganized Mess


FrostyNovaPrime
 Share

Recommended Posts

When we got the Saryn relics for the Anniversary weekend wars back in February, I've noticed one specific thing that these relics shine on the system as a whole: The relic system is a complete mess organization wise, and this really bothers me.

How are the relics messy?

  • Each new Prime Access introduces upwards of 12 new, individual relics that each only contain one new prime part. This leads to dilution of drop tables due to how many relics are available

    • If each Prime Warframe part had its own unique relic that it didn't share with other frames, there would be a total of 268 relics. 272 if we separated the Weekend War relics up based on Saryn's parts. Obviously, this isn't the case, but seeing as we now have 10 Neo S variants, we could reach those numbers fairly fast.

  • Speaking of relic variants, the letters coincide typically coincide with the rare part (unless its like Axi N1). This can cause a lot of confusion as we can't really tell if that Neo S7 relic is has Saryn, Spira, Soma, Sicarus, Sybaris, or Silva & Aegis as its rare part unless we commit the contents to memory. hint: it's a Silva & Aegis relic

  • Unlike any of the standard unvaulting relics standard relics rarely, if ever, have parts from the same Prime Access family within them. This is of course to make the newer parts harder to get, but as a result a good chunk of the newly released relics will become vaulted when the PA cycle shifts.

    • Out of Mesa's relics, 5 of her 11 relics (Lith M3, Meso M2/A1/Z2, Neo S9) will be vaulted soon because they contain Oberon Prime Access parts. That's nearly half of all her relics that are currently available, and she's only been around for 3 months. I've been around since before the relic system was adopted, so I know very well that those Mesa parts won't become vaulted themselves. However, I have seen an endless cycle of chasing prime parts from relic to relic each Prime Access because their new relic contained a part that will be vaulted soon.

  • The fact that it looks like someone pulled a slots lever in order to fill the relics, evergreen Primes and Forma took a hit in reliably farming them for Ducats/Forma. Don't forget that Braton Prime Receiver was accidentally vaulted back with Banshee because of this.

    • This also brings up the fact that once pulled from the drop tables it is impossible for an existing relic to return because it most likely contains other parts that are still vaulted at that given time. This forces DE to generate and introduce new relics when a Prime unvaults, making a feed-forward loop of my first bullet point. Depending n the Prime's Vault partner, its possible that those relics may also not come back due to a new partner. For example: Mag Prime was originally partnered with Rhino, but the past year they were not together in the same unvaulting, forcing more Mag and Rhino relics to be made. The only exception to this is the recent Frost/Ember unvault, which brought back their relics from their winter 2016 unvaulting.

  • These new Vault relics also have to be placed somewhere within the game for farming, but since the normal mission drop tables are already pretty diluted, Vaults are usually found within the Bounties. However, the bounties are a surefire way to also specifically acquire a new Prime's relics. Mesa Prime's relics will never be seen in Cetus or Fortuna bounties because of the back to back unvaultings. Chroma's relics were only in the bounties for about a month iirc before the Mag/Nova unvault was released.

How can these issues be resolved? By organizing a relic's contents by Prime Access.

I made a mock up of what these organized relics could look like, spanning from Ash Prime to Loki Prime alphabetically so far.

Basically, each prime access introduces 4 new relics instead of 10-12, with one relic in each era. Each relic can contain upwards of 3 new prime parts, 2 evergreen parts, and a forma blueprint. Based on current rarity spread, the value of parts would stay the same in most cases, though some would have to change to ensure all the relics are even parts-wise.

What does this solve?

  • Table Dilution: Assuming all frames were unvaulted, 22 Primes multiplied by 4 relics per Prime Access grouping is 88 relics and counting. The reduction in the number of relics can be compensated by either making them drop more often or have other rewards take their places. No more looking at Rotation C of ESO and thinking "ew".

  • Streamlined Naming: The letter of each relic corresponds to the Warframe the relic was introduced for. So one would know that Meso C1 is a Chroma Prime Relic. The only time the letters would double up would be in the case of the frames having the same starting letter (see in the sheet Limbo is an L2 series of relics, Loki is an older prime, so he gets the L1 series).

  • Easy Vaulting and Unvaulting: When the Prime's time is up in the regular rotation, the relics can be pulled out. When they come back, those same relics can be reintroduced because they only contain parts of that Prime Access along with evergreen parts. New relics wouldn't be necessary. Also, the evergreen parts within relics that are to be vaulted can be transferred to new relics to avoid being vaulted accidentally.

  • Unvaulting events won't get in the way of farming newer Primes in bounties: There are 3 rotations of bounty rewards. Ideally, rotation A would have the unvaulted relics, B has the current PA relics, and maybe rotation C has the relics of the previous PA in case you still need to farm those relics as well. Of course the regular drop tables (missions and SO/ESO) would be unaffected.

  • Easier Ducat and Forma farming: A forma BP would be in each relic, which is helpful for those who need them. At the same time, if the evergreen parts are spread out randomly, they should all cost 25 Ducats each, which makes them more worth picking up for when you need to prepare for Baro's next disappointing visit. No more having to run the Meso D2 relic for Forma and Ducats (because.... its a vaulted relic anyway.)

The biggest question that would come from this new organization of the relics would be what happens to the relics we already own? My best answer would be that depending on the number of relics we own for a rare part in a new relic, we get that many of said relic. For example: If those 124 Neo B2 relics shown above were all my relics for Banshee Chassis, then I would have 124 of the new relic that contains it.

TL;DR-- Relics are a mess organization-wise. Organizing them by Prime Access would reduce the clutter and confusion the current system has.

This is an issue that has been festering in the back of my head for a while now. I'd love to hear what you guys think about how the relics are organized!

This is a cross-post of my original post on r/Warframe

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, FrostyNovaPrime said:
  • Unlike any of the standard unvaulting relics standard relics rarely, if ever, have parts from the same Prime Access family within them. This is of course to make the newer parts harder to get, but as a result a good chunk of the newly released relics will become vaulted when the PA cycle shifts.

    • Out of Mesa's relics, 5 of her 11 relics (Lith M3, Meso M2/A1/Z2, Neo S9) will be vaulted soon because they contain Oberon Prime Access parts. That's nearly half of all her relics that are currently available, and she's only been around for 3 months. I've been around since before the relic system was adopted, so I know very well that those Mesa parts won't become vaulted themselves. However, I have seen an endless cycle of chasing prime parts from relic to relic each Prime Access because their new relic contained a part that will be vaulted soon.

Casually ignoring the fact that Equinox relics can VERY WELL contain Mesa Prime parts.

I don't really know what you're asking here - streamlining everything is not always a solution to all flaws.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just want the relic rewards to show the value in ducats on the selection screen....

I don't want to memorise all the stuff or have a spreadsheet open on another screen just to pick what thing I want to sell for most ducats.

Edited by KiteoHatto
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They defiantly could use an overhaul. Right now I tend to look up the prime relic, then look at where that relic drops, jot down a list somewhere for easy access becauses it take too long in game to figure out. I will give DE props for the CODEX and the search function in the relic station on the ship do make it possible for one offs. 

18 minutes ago, FrostyNovaPrime said:

prepare for Baro's next disappointing visit

Shots fired

2 minutes ago, KiteoHatto said:

I just want the relic rewards to show the value in ducats on the selection screen....

Such a big issue someone made a mode that you can press a key and overlays values. Still can't figure out if it is safe to use... On the forums for a while and not removed so maybe?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Casually ignoring the fact that Equinox relics can VERY WELL contain Mesa Prime parts.

I acknowledged that in the quote you used.

31 minutes ago, FrostyNovaPrime said:

I've been around since before the relic system was adopted, so I know very well that those Mesa parts won't become vaulted themselves. However, I have seen an endless cycle of chasing prime parts from relic to relic each Prime Access because their new relic contained a part that will be vaulted soon.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, KiteoHatto said:

I just want the relic rewards to show the value in ducats on the selection screen....

I don't want to memorise all the stuff or have a spreadsheet open on another screen just to pick what thing I want to sell for most ducats.

I mean... for most items we have that already.
Bronze name = 15 ducats
Silver name = 45 ducats
Golden name = 100 ducats

A few items, for example stuff from the Braton Prime went from being silver to being bronze. So there value went from 45 ducats to 25 ducats, or from 1000 ducats to 65 ducats.

Edited by WhiteMarker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, (NSW)Evilpricetag said:

Isn't it the Point though? I haven't used trade in a while, but is the current meta prime (saryn)1k plat or higher? 

I recall people spending $50 on Ember to another player. 

Rivens are another matter right now. 

On PC Saryn's only 130p at lowest because of those relics we got.

I don't see how trading economics would be negatively affected by consolidating relics as the rarities of parts can be preserved, which is a factor in the price of a set.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mind the many relics.. the search system gives you enough options for checking which relic you want to farm and how many you have..

What would be nice is at the beginning of a relic mission while choosing that you can quickly radiate it if needed. that's what is missing imho.

Recategorizing would mean changing all the loot tables and relics and all that comes with it.. How would you change all the special relics people have been saving upo as they have been vaulted?

 

50 minutes ago, FrostyNovaPrime said:
Basically, each prime access introduces 4 new relics instead of 10-12, with one relic in each era. Each relic can contain upwards of 3 new prime parts, 2 evergreen parts, and a forma blueprint. Based on current rarity spread, the value of parts would stay the same in most cases, though some would have to change to ensure all the relics are even parts-wise. 

It would be nice, that for the new frames ^relics.. all parts would be divided over just 4 relics.. 1 lith, 1 meso, one neo and 1 axi holding all the parts that would come out with that prime.

but i wouldnt want to touch the old ones

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, KiteoHatto said:

I just want the relic rewards to show the value in ducats on the selection screen....

I don't want to memorise all the stuff or have a spreadsheet open on another screen just to pick what thing I want to sell for most ducats.

Easy .

Bronze = 15

Silver = 45 gold = 100.

You see these colors while selecting the prime reward you want.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, mikakor said:

Easy .

Bronze = 15

Silver = 45 gold = 100.

You see these colors while selecting the prime reward you want.

 

Edit: There is a 65 and a 25 so this does not full work. wish it did... Still good to keep as a rule if you don't know.

Edited by Zelmen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, THE_ZEEK said:

How would you change all the special relics people have been saving upo as they have been vaulted?

They could be converted into new consolidated relics based on the rare part. For example, if I have a total 50 relics with Ash Prime Systems as the rare, I would get 50 of the new Ash relic that has his Systems as the rare part. The only issue with the conversion is the fluctuation of the more common parts depending on which rare they're paired with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, FrostyNovaPrime said:

They could be converted into new consolidated relics based on the rare part. For example, if I have a total 50 relics with Ash Prime Systems as the rare, I would get 50 of the new Ash relic that has his Systems as the rare part. The only issue with the conversion is the fluctuation of the more common parts depending on which rare they're paired with. 

I have some relics that the "rare part" is not my main focus because the parts are vaulted..

Its just a complete mess reorganising them..

You could however start from the first coming new primes  start with a new system and slowly incorporate those..

For example in stead of starting with a letter use a number to distinct the new relics from the old. in due time the old relics would become exhausted due to usage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, THE_ZEEK said:

I have some relics that the "rare part" is not my main focus because the parts are vaulted..

Its just a complete mess reorganising them..

You could however start from the first coming new primes  start with a new system and slowly incorporate those..

For example in stead of starting with a letter use a number to distinct the new relics from the old. in due time the old relics would become exhausted due to usage.

That is a good point. Legacy vaulted relics could die out by unvaulting older Primes with relics of the new system (not to be confused with how the current vault relics are packed) that would become their standard relic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, mikakor said:

Easy .

Bronze = 15

Silver = 45 gold = 100.

You see these colors while selecting the prime reward you want.

 

No, i thought about that as well, i was wrong, silver price may vary from 25 to 45 ducats, i too, want that DE shows ducat price realtime when we pick rewards. I even made a thread about this here.... 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, i know that [bronze, silver, gold] general rule of thumb, but there are always exceptions.

Slipped my mind, but it would also be good if we could see if the part is vaulted or not. Im sitting on so many old relics back from when they used to be tower keys which i bought a truckload of from syndicates and frankly, im not sure if im running a "rare" relic or not if I don't research it through the wiki before hand.

Would be nice to see, so if you or someone got a rare part then you could keep it for later instead of vendoring it.

Just quality of life things.

Edited by KiteoHatto
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Casually ignoring the fact that Equinox relics can VERY WELL contain Mesa Prime parts.

I don't really know what you're asking here - streamlining everything is not always a solution to all flaws.

So let's say that Mesa parts come with Equinox. Now I have 20+ vaulted Mesa relics I want to run but everyone is only doing the new relics. Even if I find a group running the same Mesa part, our relics do not get an increased drop chance by using them together. So by diluting the relics, DE has effectively lowered the drop chance since it's not enough to farm the same part, it also has to be from the same relic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

So let's say that Mesa parts come with Equinox. Now I have 20+ vaulted Mesa relics I want to run but everyone is only doing the new relics. Even if I find a group running the same Mesa part, our relics do not get an increased drop chance by using them together. So by diluting the relics, DE has effectively lowered the drop chance since it's not enough to farm the same part, it also has to be from the same relic.

mmh ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, KiteoHatto said:

Yes, i know that [bronze, silver, gold] general rule of thumb, but there are always exceptions.

Slipped my mind, but it would also be good if we could see if the part is vaulted or not. Im sitting on so many old relics back from when they used to be tower keys which i bought a truckload of from syndicates and frankly, im not sure if im running a "rare" relic or not if I don't research it through the wiki before hand.

Would be nice to see, so if you or someone got a rare part then you could keep it for later instead of vendoring it.

Just quality of life things.

Wish it was the case, tho.

One thing to see which prime part is vaulted on the reward selecting screen, and how much each of them is worth in ducat. That's my dream.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

So let's say that Mesa parts come with Equinox. Now I have 20+ vaulted Mesa relics I want to run but everyone is only doing the new relics. Even if I find a group running the same Mesa part, our relics do not get an increased drop chance by using them together. So by diluting the relics, DE has effectively lowered the drop chance since it's not enough to farm the same part, it also has to be from the same relic.

But in a sense....you could be getting vaulted stuff out of the old relic which could sell for plat which can be used to buy the part outright ? 😄

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, KiteoHatto said:

But in a sense....you could be getting vaulted stuff out of the old relic which could sell for plat which can be used to buy the part outright ? 😄

Certainly. But if you have farmed relics you know that a solo radiant relic still has a very low drop chance, whereas a 4 relic group not only has an increased chance but 4 separate rolls for that particular relic.

For example, let's say I have 4 vaulted relics and cannot find a group to run that particular relic in recruiting. My choices are to run it 4 times with a random group, or to make a private group and give each player 1 of the relics. From that one private run I have a better drop chance than from the 4 separate runs. So while I will get 4 drops with randoms, my particular drop chance is very low.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Certainly. But if you have farmed relics you know that a solo radiant relic still has a very low drop chance, whereas a 4 relic group not only has an increased chance but 4 separate rolls for that particular relic.

For example, let's say I have 4 vaulted relics and cannot find a group to run that particular relic in recruiting. My choices are to run it 4 times with a random group, or to make a private group and give each player 1 of the relics. From that one private run I have a better drop chance than from the 4 separate runs. So while I will get 4 drops with randoms, my particular drop chance is very low.

The secret to get rare drop is to wish for forma bp drop.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 час назад, (NSW)Evilpricetag сказал:

Isn't it the Point though? I haven't used trade in a while, but is the current meta prime (saryn)1k plat or higher? 

I recall people spending $50 on Ember to another player. 

Rivens are another matter right now. 

WHAT?! This is how much Saryn Prime costs on NSW?!!!!

By. The. Void.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...