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DrakeWurrum

What can we learn about shields from Hildryn?

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52 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

We are talking infested here. You need to do some very piss poor job with the frame if you ever lose your overshields

You cant gain any notable shields from the infested to begin with unless youre doing a piss poor job killing them. 

 

52 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes, if you are extremely poor at playing Hildryn. 

Or just unlucky, had a guy get dragged into another ancients breath and die in a survival arbitration. Obviously profanity ensued but lets not pretend like things dont happen but regardless THAT is her weakness other than that shes effectively immortal.

 

52 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is a far higher chance the other frames will get eaten by nullifiers than Hildryn getting cought in a combination versus an ancient where she has no overshields and somehow decides to be so static that the ancinent lives long enough to get close and also get the breath attack off to kill her.

Thats...not the scenario i witnessed but ok. 

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so far even though off topic, the only thing we could learn is that despite 2 weeks of feedback all DE did was to give her a DASH option at the cost of shields for her 4th.

lmfao.

even though i've tested thick lady in very long endurance runs of all sorts, i can't complain much at this point but the LOS on her 2 and 3 + that odd cc limited to flat surfaces for her 4th still annoy me alot..and i'd rather have an automatic Balefire cus i still don't like it much no matter the high raw dmg numbers it can hit

Ps: Wyrm/Wyrm prime with the negate precept works very well on her ( at least for me ), let alone arcanes...

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12 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

You cant gain any notable shields from the infested to begin with unless youre doing a piss poor job killing them. 

Or just unlucky, had a guy get dragged into another ancients breath and die in a survival arbitration. Obviously profanity ensued but lets not pretend like things dont happen but regardless THAT is her weakness other than that shes effectively immortal.

Thats...not the scenario i witnessed but ok. 

As I said, you can run 1h+ on Rev and barely lose any Mesmer Skin charges, or run with Rhino/Nezha without dropping in Iron Skin/Halo health. Shields are bound by the exact same rules, so shouldnt take more damage than those frames to begin with. You dont need more than your sentinel to stay in overshields 24/7 on her versus infested. There is no excuse for screwing up your 1200 OS versus infested because whatever little incoming damage they take, they will get replenished soon after by your sent.

I wouldnt call it unlucky, simply a player slacking at both kill priorities and managing his shields. If he had played well he would have been in overshields and the toxin breath would have done jack squat to him. But he was cought without overshields, dragged in and finished. So he failed on two things, well three by bringing Hildryn to an infested mission in the first place.

So yes it is exactly what you saw, a player cought off guard with his overshields not properly managed and killed as a result.

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@DrakeWurrum

Hildryn's shield gating does work, but it would have  been nicer to see a form of scaling included in her abilities.

If DE decides to implement her Shield Gate Passive to all Warframes, Sentinels, Companions, objectives, and enemies. It would make things different. It would probably be best to have a cool down similar to Rolling Guard for each the Shield to Health invincibility phase. This would prevent Mag/Trinity/Harrow/Night Equinox/Capacitance Volt/Electric Chroma from abusing Shield to Health gate invincibility while promoting good maintenance of OverShields to keep health protected from Viral/Bleed/Toxic. 

-Nidus already has Undying and would be fine as-is even with other Warframes now also becoming more tanky

-Inaros should be able to have Sarcophagus accept Secondary Mods or should just scale base on enemy level and apply finisher damage to be reliable as self-pickup/revive.

Nezha, Rhino, Frost, and Gara (Maybe Garuda if Shield is between damage, so fired at wall and not feet) should be changed to allow for self damage to bolster absorption abilities.

 

Spoiler contains Hildryn changes if Shield Gating is applied system wide:

In that scenario it would be better to allow Hildryn to have a Capacitor that allows excess Shields to be stored to maximum of Hildryn's maximum shield capacity before OverShields.

In this case Hildryn could use excess Shields drained from Shield Pillage to be auto applied at each Shield gate and/or to be used to boost damage to her other 3 abilities.

With 100% of her Shield value stored as a capacitor. OverShields are only 1200 to refill, so she would be able to instantly fill OverShields at 1st Shield break so Hildryn could potentially keep her OverShields indefinitely. Allowing her to use the OverShields as her protection from Health status effects. Unmodded at Rank 30 Hildryn has 1575 Shields.

Damage wise for Balefire/Haven/Aegis Storm there would need to be a multiplier based on available Shields with Capacitor store Shields.

✓ Valkyr Paralysis deals damage based on current Shield value and then drains them by 1/3.

Balefire could gain AoE range and Damage on fully charged shots. AoE explosion range is doubled with current Capacitor shield value added as base damage before mods with each Charged shot consuming 1/3 of Capacitor shield.

Haven : changed base stats to be where Hildryn's Shield value is shared with others and Power-strength acts as a Multiplier. Base 100% Power-strength at Rank 30 would be 30% of Hildryn's Shields are linked to others. since Shield wall invulnerability is now system wide: Haven links her shield recharge rate to allies, affected by powerstrength. Damage to enemies is calculated as 10% of the current Shield value applied as damage per second. 

% is scaled by powerstrength

OverShields double damage and increase amount of linked shields.

Capacitance with Haven would double the shield Regen rate on linked allies and add a second instance of linked enemy damage that drains at the same shield consumption rate as Haven. This would be draining Capacitance.

Aegis Storm would be changed damage wise to match above Haven damage changes being scaled from available Shields. Capacitance doubles the rate of energy or generation and damage ticks buy drains Capacitance at the same rate as Aegis Storm drains Shields.

Shield Capacitor would be accumulated by any amount of Shields added as excess over Hildryn's Overshields.

Osprey (Specter), Sequence buff, and other Hildryn Havens would not increase Hildryn's Capacitance shield capacity above her Shield value.

All instances of Shield generation can be used to fill Hildryn's Capacitor to Max shield value.

Ie Hildryn base shield plus Redirection/Vigor/Augur Accord (Shield Capacity mods)

 

 

 

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Hopefully it showed the rest of the community that Shield Gating has always been a crappy idea that tries badly to aid the symptoms of a health type instead of improving the health type. I've preferred this as a solution and it works fine for enemies.

  • Shields have 70% DR. When shields take damage their DR fades by 10% over 2s. Regain 10% of Shield DR over 15s of not taking Shield Damage.

At Worst a Corpus would have 70% DR on 25% of their remaining shields after a Magnetic proc. At best we just ignore them which IMO is a whole other situation involving the damage system when it comes to Slash procs and Toxic ignoring shields. It has to be addressed on a wider scale ie Damage 3.0

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Le 23/03/2019 à 19:35, SenorClipClop a dit :

She's immune if she has Overshields. She can shed Status Effects with the press of a button. And if somehow neither of these prevent you from getting downed super-fast, you're playing at a level where that problem is an issue for the majority of frames.

Other frames aren't floating stupidly above the ground like Hildryn, and while using Aegis storm you can't use her 2nd so you're basically worthless against this kind of threats. I read some "deny" argument here such as "i never died so nothing is wrong" which is the most laughable kind of argument: I never died because of Stalker so Stalker doesn't kill, or i've never seen this bug, so this bug doesn't exist. 🙄

Let be honest a second, dying from poison or bleeds is definitely happening in this game, perhaps not when you're MR26-27 or not in a slash/poison sortie but it happens. Hildryn is supposed to be a tank and she can't rely upon overshield all the time since most of her powers are draining her shields, 2nd isn't necessarily viable either (can't use while in Aegis Storm nor against infested, doesn't synergize well with other Mag/Saryn/Frost or just Corrosive projections). Being immune to shield bypass instead of overshield wouldn't have been overpowered but could fit the character.

For now i'm only using her 2nd and 3rd cause i didn't feel like her whole kit is working properly. Many people have no issues with her power sustainment/survivability but once again, relying upon legendary arcanes isn't relevant, i don't need legendary arcanes to use Ash, Trinity, Volt, Mag or any other frame whole kit properly. My two cent: this new frame needs to be reworked slightly but reworked nevertheless. Not being able to manage her one and only ressource only because 3 players are using CP is really bad design.

Hildryn has some really nice utility though when combined with your operator. You can pretty much use her Aegis Storm and switch to Operator under her which is an interesting way to play him a lot while still being protected by your frame powers. Don't know if it was designed this way on purpose but that's the only fun i had so far with Hildryn whole kit.

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On 2019-03-23 at 3:57 PM, SneakyErvin said:

 And her health sustain is the same as the majority of the roster i.e 0hp/sec, so just as with every other frame you mod a weapon or slot an arcane for it.

You can't possibly be serious?! Ever heard of quick thinking? That's how half the frames in the game don't get constantly oneshot past level 30.

Hyldrin can't use QT, can't heal and has virtually no health. She also can't generate overshields unless there's shielded enemies with flawless line of sight to her around.

She's a fundamentally broken warframe, some tedious and counterproductive workarounds exist, but they're quite ineffectual and a whole lot of work just to try to fix a handicap that no other warframe has.

To top it all off, nothing she does is remotely useful or effective, her abilities all do more harm than good. She's a passive "shield tank" that's squishier than every other frame in the game.

-10/10 by far the worst and most broken thing ever to appear in warframe, scandalously so.

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What really makes her special is not the shield gating but the fact her shields make Adaptation viable, not to mention that she's effectively immune to magnetic procs, energy leech units, and nullifiers, which make her tankiness innate. 

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il y a une heure, Xaxma a dit :

make her tankiness innate. 

The problem is that your entire tank is just three seconds with a cloud of problems. And even then, your shields must be very thin, so you do not influence the statuses that ignore shields. In many MMORPGs, DPS characters will have a short immunity to damage and that doesn't make them tanks. It is not a tank as it cannot effectively absorb damage, or redirect damage, or protect against allied damage. I can't consider it a support as it works very badly and I'm not sure I can help the allies. I can't even help my own guard, since the ability doesn't see what's above my head. I can think of it as a low-level dps, like amber, but something tells me that's not what the players want. In the end, I see only its application in the removal of armor and shields to 100% with maximum power and Nydus. But guys, this is solved 4 auras, or statuses, maby 4 frosts, which is one of the best tanks in this game. 

You can say whatever you want, but I'm sure 99% of players in a 1-3 month will just put it on the shelf and take something more effective or fun. Of course, she will be popular on level 30 missions, as it allows you to farm in AFK mode. Let's see how quickly it's exposed to the nerf.

And Yes, if you think this passive is the best in terms of tanker, then let's take a look at limbo.

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7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

As I said, you can run 1h+ on Rev and barely lose any Mesmer Skin

Pretty positive that has to do with hit count and not raw damage which is very different from shields.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Rhino/Nezha without dropping in Iron Skin/Halo health. Shields

Yeah because their skins absorb a vast majority of the damage coming their way.  Hildryn can only circumvent the poison IF her over shields are up 

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You dont need more than your sentinel to stay in overshields 24/7 on her versus infested. There is no excuse for screwing up your 1200 OS v

That also means a few things

1) If she ever drops below the 200 thresh hold and gets hooked by a high level disruptor she loses around 1k of those shields sending her right into the blue shields ala the situation i watched. 

2) Youre relying on the precepts of either Artax/shield charger/ rakta dark or shield panels (which gets expensive)

3) this "bad management" effectively comes down to the uptime of those 2 prior statements which isnt 100% 

 

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

wouldnt call it unlucky, simply a player slacking at both kill priorities and managing his shields. If he had played well he would have been in overshields and the toxin breath would have done jack squat to him

So basically had they not used her abilities at all that grapple wouldnt have sent him from 4400 OS to 3100 blue and getting waxed by the breath he couldnt roll from. 

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So yes it is exactly what you saw, a player cought off guard with his overshields not properly managed and killed as a result.

So human error and never use her powers 

I honestly just tell people to use other frames since they arent perfect.

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On 2019-03-23 at 8:52 AM, GnarlsDarkley said:

No. I was being discreet in case DE decides to go against exploit (and we don't know if DE will consider this an exploit in the future) users like they did last year when N00bl showed the Khora exploit and how to use it. I just don't want to lose my account.

The Khora Exploit affected the speed of leveling gear. DE has not, as far as I remember (and I've played this game for nearly 7 years now) ever banned someone for exploits which weren't blatantly breaking the game's economy (and being able to instantly powerlevel everything in a few minutes without ever playing the game would break the economy, because it renders things like affinity boosters worthless). And furthermore, they have only done so when the exploit is so obviously not intended gameplay that using it clearly demonstrates maliciousness. For a while after his launch Chroma's credit boost scaled with power strength and applied to end of mission rewards, allowing you to farm millions of credits in a few minutes-but nobody was banned for that as far as I recall.

The closest analogy to the overshield Hildryn build is the old Rage + Quick Thinking combo. Rage + Quick Thinking was an 'exploit' that made any Warframe immortal before they changed the mechanics of Quick Thinking, zero people got banned for using Rage + QT. 

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5 hours ago, Mudfam said:

You can't possibly be serious?! Ever heard of quick thinking? That's how half the frames in the game don't get constantly oneshot past level 30.

Hyldrin can't use QT, can't heal and has virtually no health. She also can't generate overshields unless there's shielded enemies with flawless line of sight to her around.

She's a fundamentally broken warframe, some tedious and counterproductive workarounds exist, but they're quite ineffectual and a whole lot of work just to try to fix a handicap that no other warframe has.

To top it all off, nothing she does is remotely useful or effective, her abilities all do more harm than good. She's a passive "shield tank" that's squishier than every other frame in the game.

-10/10 by far the worst and most broken thing ever to appear in warframe, scandalously so.

No you dont need QT to survive past level 30. You dont even need it around level 100 (on any frame that is). And Hildryn can sustain herself very well with her pillage against corpus and grineer. She also doesnt need more than a shred of overshields in order to protect her regular shields from heavy attacks aswell as shield her from direct HP damage attacks. She is as close to immortal as you can get versus corpus and grineer, you are simply doing something very very very wrong if you think she is squishy. You dont even need to run some broken "exploit" build on her to make her near immortal.

She's extremely easy to maintain with maxed efficiency, decent strength and some negative duration along with redirection, adaption and umbral vit, the last two being optional.

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24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No you dont need QT to survive past level 30. You dont even need it around level 100 (on any frame that is). And Hildryn can sustain herself very well with her pillage against corpus and grineer. She also doesnt need more than a shred of overshields in order to protect her regular shields from heavy attacks aswell as shield her from direct HP damage attacks. She is as close to immortal as you can get versus corpus and grineer, you are simply doing something very very very wrong if you think she is squishy. You dont even need to run some broken "exploit" build on her to make her near immortal.

She's extremely easy to maintain with maxed efficiency, decent strength and some negative duration along with redirection, adaption and umbral vit, the last two being optional.

This is my experience as well. Hildryn's heavily dependent on using shield pillage to sustain her shields under fire-and the mechanics of her shieldgate actually reinforce how Hildryn's supposed to be used. Basically, if your shield is getting low, immediately cast pillage-it is almost certain that even if your shields go down, the shieldgate will be more than enough to keep you alive until your pillage can restore your shields so you can continue casting.

Yes, she's not 'tanky' in the sense that she can sustain endless amounts of fire without issue-but so long as she doesn't instantly go down from enemy fire, she can sustain herself nearly indefinitely against Corpus (and higher-level Grineer without CorPro stacking). Her main issues are basically a dire weakness to Infested, random slash procs being a thing, and toxin damage. But against Corpus and Grineer she's perfectly viable even against lv100 enemies.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Pretty positive that has to do with hit count and not raw damage which is very different from shields.

Yeah because their skins absorb a vast majority of the damage coming their way.  Hildryn can only circumvent the poison IF her over shields are up 

That also means a few things

1) If she ever drops below the 200 thresh hold and gets hooked by a high level disruptor she loses around 1k of those shields sending her right into the blue shields ala the situation i watched. 

2) Youre relying on the precepts of either Artax/shield charger/ rakta dark or shield panels (which gets expensive)

3) this "bad management" effectively comes down to the uptime of those 2 prior statements which isnt 100% 

 

So basically had they not used her abilities at all that grapple wouldnt have sent him from 4400 OS to 3100 blue and getting waxed by the breath he couldnt roll from. 

So human error and never use her powers 

I honestly just tell people to use other frames since they arent perfect.

It doesnt matter if it's hit count, iron skins or shield. IS and Halo are exactly like shields, we are afterall discussing how easy it is to maintain Hildryn's overshields. The only difference between shields and iron skin is that iron skin ignores status procs. That doesnt matter here because that isnt the matter at hand. We are talking about actual hits taken, hits that nudge away iron skin health or shields. If you can go a full hour with rhino or nezha without ever running out of your basic skin or halo (that never replenishes passivly) you will run 60 minutes just as easily with Hildryn in overshield state, especially versus infested, the faction being discussed.

As for your 1, 2 and 3, as I said, poor player managing Hildryn, nothing else. The disruptor and toxic ancients should be dead in the first place if you have any form of awareness. They are the slowest, biggest things and you can spot them from miles away. And yes you are relying on Taxon, not artax specifically and this is a specific case to infested only, a faction she shouldnt even be brought to if you want a serious loadout to handle that faction. The bad management comes down to picking Hildryn in the first place versus infested, which in itself shows the player doesnt fully grasp the frame to begin with.

Yes basically. I just dont know where the numbers come from that you mention. But there is zero reason to use Hildryn's abilities in an infested mission, they do pretty much nothing.

I mean the whole complaint regarding Hildryn's "weakness" is based around people taking her to missions versus factions she is of no use against and play her as if she was facing corpus, grineer or the corrupted. Even if you do take her to infested missions, it is an extreme outlier that she will end up grappled with no OS versus a toxic ancient. And when it is an outlier like that, it isnt exactly a weakness of the frame, it is more just several layers of player errors stacked ontop of eachother.

1. Picking the completely wrong frame for the faction you face.

2. Play it like you do versus the favorable factions. In this case draining your own shields with no way to rebuild them on your own.

3. Not managing your survival. Ties into point #2 but also #3, since your awareness is poor and you take far more hits than need.

4. Having horrible situational awareness to the point that slow walking giant creatures with slow attacks manages to grab you and pull you in while also having caught you "off guard" with your overshields down. Not only that but you got caught off guard by not one but two slow lumbering giants. 

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7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

I mean the whole complaint regarding Hildryn's "weakness" is based around people taking her to missions versus factions she is of no use against and play her as if she was facing corpus, grineer or the corrupted. Even if you do take her to infested missions, it is an extreme outlier that she will end up grappled with no OS versus a toxic ancient. And when it is an outlier like that, it isnt exactly a weakness of the frame, it is more just several layers of player errors stacked ontop of eachother.

This is a significant problem. The only other Warframe who became more or less entirely ineffective when faced with a specific faction was pre-rework Mag, who was overpowered against Corpus (and ludicrously overpowered against Corpus in enhanced shield sorties) and good against literally nothing else, and she was redesigned in part because Warframes being non-viable against an entire faction is bad design. I think Hildryn's mostly fine regarding how she performs against Corpus/Grineer, but how ineffectual her powers are against Infested is a serious problem.

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8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The only difference between shields and iron skin is that iron skin ignores status procs.

Iirc iron skin can also be well maintained and isnt stripped off or put into "vulnerable" status there are no 2 iron skins where there are states of Hildryn OS or just shielded which causes very different defense based bonuses or lack of to occur.

 

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Even if you do take her to infested missions, it is an extreme outlier that she will end up grappled with no OS versus a toxic ancient

The point was discussing her weakness, she infact has them and you even admitted to them in this post.  The point was her HAVING OS then getting 1k of it removed putting back in normal shield to get killed my toxic damage , not just the proc actual toxic damage. 

13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I just dont know where the numbers come from that you mention. But there is zero reason to use Hildryn's abilities in an infested mission, they do pretty much nothing.

The numbers were how much OS he had which was at 4400 or so, the grab from the 160 disruptor took out 1k of it putting him.in blue range to get breathed on as he got back up. 

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

mean the whole complaint regarding Hildryn's "weakness" is based around people taking her to missions versus factions she is of no use against and play her as if she was facing corpus, grineer or the corrupted.

The point of the weakness is to point out what she struggled against, to say she has none is relatively disingenuous. 

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The disruptor and toxic ancients should be dead in the first place if you have any form of awareness. 

Funny thing humans are not omniscient, of course human error is at play it always is, the difference is the other tank frames wouldnt have died in such a decisive manner. 

18 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Having horrible situational awareness to the point that slow walking giant creatures with slow attacks manages to grab you and pull you in while also having caught you "off guard" with your overshields down

Or hear me out, maybe this slow walking creature came through a door and through its long range hook, the thing that pulls you to it, that did over 1k in shields sending him down to blue out of OS to get breathed on. 

There is a difference betweeen standing around getting hooked and getting hooked while killing in another direction. 

Conflation seems to be an issue at the moment and i dont feel like arguing conflated arguments.

Ill concede.

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10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No you dont need QT to survive past level 30. You dont even need it around level 100 (on any frame that is).

Yeah, no. Kuva shield lancers that do ~2k per shot at level 80 and kuva hyekka masters disagree. Not to mention scrambuses and various other enemies. Have you even played this game? Doesn't seem like it.

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Hildryn can sustain herself very well with her pillage against corpus and grineer.

Most grineer units only have about 50 base armour, it's only uncommon heavy units that have more. Regardless, I and everyone I play with always run corrosive projection, obviously. And what about infested?

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

you are simply doing something very very very wrong if you think she is squishy.

I am clearly making reference to the fact that a mid level toxic ancient can 1 shot her, and there's absolutely nothing she can do to counter it. You can build a house of cards scenario in which she can, but it's just ludicrous arguing for the sake of argument.

I honestly don't understand what your point is supposed to be, you're obviously very keen on defending her, but why? You can make anything work in this game one way or another, the game is easy  But facts are facts, you can't pretend otherwise. She can't stand on her own legs, she needs lots of fancy extra equipment just to barely function, she has huge weaknesses that no other frame has and her abilities are literally beyond useless, all having more detrimental effects than useful ones.

Anyway, I don't want to engage in this argument. It's all painfully obvious and not worth debating at all. Look at the Hyldrin feedback thread or reddit, everyone who understands how the game works and thinks it might actually matter a little acknowledges the sad facts about this frame.

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Personally, my conclusion on shields from Hildryn is that shields don't really work, at least not anymore. Perhaps they made sense in a slower, less intense Warframe, where it made sense for the player to have one regenerating and one static health bar, to encourage a basic loop of combat and exploration, but currently we live in an era where enemy damage at higher levels is aplenty, many damage sources bypass shields entirely, and where high-level players have plenty of ways to recover their health on the fly, while newer players die to attrition in their own missions. Shield gating could be a solution to burst (though perhaps not when implemented in as intense a manner as on Hildryn), but then I still think there is a problem of enemies being able to apply burst that is simply not balanced relative to our health.

As it stands, Hildryn is a fun, yet disjointed frame that has a tendency to spontaneously die in missions where enemies have large amounts of toxin or slash damage, because few people really take a constant look at their health bar just to check if they're being status-procced. Her pseudo-health from overshields doesn't quite work, and overall she'd likely be far more functional if she had just one extra thick health bar, and perhaps fewer drains from her abilities as well. The same I think can be said for any frame, which is also why so many players keep requesting for frames to lose shields and gain health instead as a buff.

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12 hours ago, MJ12 said:

This is a significant problem. The only other Warframe who became more or less entirely ineffective when faced with a specific faction was pre-rework Mag, who was overpowered against Corpus (and ludicrously overpowered against Corpus in enhanced shield sorties) and good against literally nothing else, and she was redesigned in part because Warframes being non-viable against an entire faction is bad design. I think Hildryn's mostly fine regarding how she performs against Corpus/Grineer, but how ineffectual her powers are against Infested is a serious problem.

It is just that versus infested she can simply play in an Inaros style way i.e not using her skills and still doing fine. Versus corpus and grineer she really shines. Sure against corpus her shield strip is overkill because there is already access to gas weapons, but atleast the drain makes her immortal versus the faction. It is extremely hard to ever drop out of overshields versus corpus or grineer at levels 100+ even. Pillage is just such a very well designed proactive skill for her to sustain herself. And when you have adaption aswell your shields will take even less damage the longer you go.

12 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Iirc iron skin can also be well maintained and isnt stripped off or put into "vulnerable" status there are no 2 iron skins where there are states of Hildryn OS or just shielded which causes very different defense based bonuses or lack of to occur.

The point was discussing her weakness, she infact has them and you even admitted to them in this post.  The point was her HAVING OS then getting 1k of it removed putting back in normal shield to get killed my toxic damage , not just the proc actual toxic damage. 

The numbers were how much OS he had which was at 4400 or so, the grab from the 160 disruptor took out 1k of it putting him.in blue range to get breathed on as he got back up. 

The point of the weakness is to point out what she struggled against, to say she has none is relatively disingenuous. 

Funny thing humans are not omniscient, of course human error is at play it always is, the difference is the other tank frames wouldnt have died in such a decisive manner. 

Or hear me out, maybe this slow walking creature came through a door and through its long range hook, the thing that pulls you to it, that did over 1k in shields sending him down to blue out of OS to get breathed on. 

There is a difference betweeen standing around getting hooked and getting hooked while killing in another direction. 

Conflation seems to be an issue at the moment and i dont feel like arguing conflated arguments.

Ill concede.

It isnt about being maintained or not, it is about the fact that you dont have to. That is the whole point. And Iron Skin does have a vulnerable status, because you can get 1-shot straight through it while Hildryn takes atleast 3+ hits (most often 5) except if you snooze against a toxic ancient. It also doesnt really matter where you're at, if you sit in a nullibubble or not, it will still be 5 heavy hits needed to kill her.

And you further prove it was just player error, because if he hadnt used skills, skills that do nothing versus infested to begin with, he would have survived that toxic hit and still had 200 OS to go. But due to using skills pointlessly he put himself up for getting wrecked. If he would have had just 1 point of OS nothing would have happened to him. Likely he kept his #3 channel on for some reason, maybe not even having the proper companion for her etc. But as I said there isnt only 1 step that led to his death, there were several flaws stacked already. My point isnt that she doesnt have a "weakness" my point is that the other tank frames have just as many i.e nullifiers. To me they are about as much of an issue as toxin attacks against Hildryn, which would be none.

2 hours ago, Mudfam said:

Yeah, no. Kuva shield lancers that do ~2k per shot at level 80 and kuva hyekka masters disagree. Not to mention scrambuses and various other enemies. Have you even played this game? Doesn't seem like it.

Most grineer units only have about 50 base armour, it's only uncommon heavy units that have more. Regardless, I and everyone I play with always run corrosive projection, obviously. And what about infested?

I am clearly making reference to the fact that a mid level toxic ancient can 1 shot her, and there's absolutely nothing she can do to counter it. You can build a house of cards scenario in which she can, but it's just ludicrous arguing for the sake of argument.

I honestly don't understand what your point is supposed to be, you're obviously very keen on defending her, but why? You can make anything work in this game one way or another, the game is easy  But facts are facts, you can't pretend otherwise. She can't stand on her own legs, she needs lots of fancy extra equipment just to barely function, she has huge weaknesses that no other frame has and her abilities are literally beyond useless, all having more detrimental effects than useful ones.

Anyway, I don't want to engage in this argument. It's all painfully obvious and not worth debating at all. Look at the Hyldrin feedback thread or reddit, everyone who understands how the game works and thinks it might actually matter a little acknowledges the sad facts about this frame.

Yes I've played this game alot, 2500 hours or so and I've never ever felt the need to equip QT. In fact I've tried it out and found it to be more of a death trap crutch than anything else. I'm also not entirely sure what your CP usage has to do with anything. Obviously if you run a dedicated CP group you shouldnt take Hildryn, Mag, Oberon or any other reliable armor strip class with you. I also cant remember the last time I got downed in a high level Kuva Survival or Kuva Flood... maybe a year ago or so?

And no a mid level toxic ancient cannot 1-shot her. Yes if you stand there with her basic health and let him first get through the overshields he will (though that wouldnt technically pass as a 1HK), but that isnt even a thing that will happen. I wouldnt even have the stamina to sit there and watch as it nudges away 1200 OS even to test it out to begin with.

She also doesnt need lots of fancy extra equipment. She needs redirection and the most basic sentinel in the game. Oh such fancy, much wow.

I've ran her in plenty of level 100+ content and I'm constantly topped off in overshield state with her while channeling her #3 24/7. The only place where this changes is versus infested, where I sit at overshields but with her #3 turned off. Even in dense fights like the profit taker she sits at topped off OS through pretty much the whole fight. More reliable than Inaros because she doesnt need to rely on arcane procs to keep her sustained in that fight. She still suffers the same as Inaros and any other non-Chroma/Rhino in that fight i.e poop damage.

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18 hours ago, zhellon said:

The problem is that your entire tank is just three seconds with a cloud of problems. And even then, your shields must be very thin, so you do not influence the statuses that ignore shields. In many MMORPGs, DPS characters will have a short immunity to damage and that doesn't make them tanks. It is not a tank as it cannot effectively absorb damage, or redirect damage, or protect against allied damage. I can't consider it a support as it works very badly and I'm not sure I can help the allies. I can't even help my own guard, since the ability doesn't see what's above my head. I can think of it as a low-level dps, like amber, but something tells me that's not what the players want. In the end, I see only its application in the removal of armor and shields to 100% with maximum power and Nydus. But guys, this is solved 4 auras, or statuses, maby 4 frosts, which is one of the best tanks in this game. 

You can say whatever you want, but I'm sure 99% of players in a 1-3 month will just put it on the shelf and take something more effective or fun. Of course, she will be popular on level 30 missions, as it allows you to farm in AFK mode. Let's see how quickly it's exposed to the nerf.

And Yes, if you think this passive is the best in terms of tanker, then let's take a look at limbo.

Wow, look at you not inferring anything I said at all. Not even close. It's like you didn't even read what I said. 

Her tankiness is innate much in the way Inaros's tankiness is innate due to her raw stats, not through her abilities necessarily, hence why I specifically said it wasn't the gating that made her tanky but the fact her massive shield makes Adaptation viable. 

Other frames like Oberon, Rhino, Wukong, Nezha, Nidus, Trinity, and Assimilate Nyx for example rely on their abilities to maintain tankiness, but the second their energy pool is depleted by any of the aforementioned reasons or a Nullifier steps into range, their survivability plummets. 

For Hildryn, this does not happen because she is immune to the effects of energy leech, magnetic proc, and nullifiers, which is her greatest asset. 

Did I stutter? I don't know why you're bringing up points about her damage when that's not the topic whatsoever. 

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Il y a 19 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

She is as close to immortal as you can get versus corpus and grineer, you are simply doing something very very very wrong if you think she is squishy.

First you can't say Hildryn is immortal if you've ever used her Aegis Storm (which is her 4th so some huge part of her kit), using this power prevents her from getting some shield back so design wise she's far from being immortal unless you're only using half of her kit.

Second, i've played with a lot of PUG and you're right about Corpus, she really shines against them, not because she's well designed but because no one uses the shield reduction aura. I've played with 3 CP once and i was getting next to no shield back on a Grineer mission, and if a Saryn is playing the right way (spreading spores) you won't get anything back either. I've experienced that with a Mag too and it's far from being enjoyable.

No more shield = Far from being immortal especially if your sentinel has been killed (it happens a lot in Arbitrations or against infested - if one is foolish enough to run an infested mission with Hildryn of course 😄).

In the right situations she's really tough, but it can be a real nightmare in worst case scenarios. No one wants his frame to become unplayable because of the reasons i mentioned above - and we're talking about design here, not balance.

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3 hours ago, 000l000 said:

First you can't say Hildryn is immortal if you've ever used her Aegis Storm (which is her 4th so some huge part of her kit), using this power prevents her from getting some shield back so design wise she's far from being immortal unless you're only using half of her kit.

Second, i've played with a lot of PUG and you're right about Corpus, she really shines against them, not because she's well designed but because no one uses the shield reduction aura. I've played with 3 CP once and i was getting next to no shield back on a Grineer mission, and if a Saryn is playing the right way (spreading spores) you won't get anything back either. I've experienced that with a Mag too and it's far from being enjoyable.

No more shield = Far from being immortal especially if your sentinel has been killed (it happens a lot in Arbitrations or against infested - if one is foolish enough to run an infested mission with Hildryn of course 😄).

In the right situations she's really tough, but it can be a real nightmare in worst case scenarios. No one wants his frame to become unplayable because of the reasons i mentioned above - and we're talking about design here, not balance.

First, that is a choice, no one says you need to use every single skill in a kit. Her 1 and 4 arent really that useful to begin with, however #4 can have some use in the right situation. This is something that goes for every frame. Rhino, a top notch frame, but you rarely use his #4 unless you specifically build for it.

Second, the same can be said regarding many frames, because we cant do anything about pugs. Every frame will eventually run into a corner where they simply cant perform due to another frame or setup being present. This isnt as much an issue with the frames as it is with one-track-mind thinking of the playerbase i.e CP = God. It may have been the best aura at one point, but the more frames we get, the more options for armor stripping comes along, making CP a quite redundant aura. While Saryn may prevent you from getting shields it really isnt a problem, because at the same time she denies you from getting the shields she also kills the enemies in the process, which makes you not even need those extra shields because there is nothing left you need protection against.

In arbitrations I've had no issues with my shields so far and #3 keeps my sent happy and alive.

With Hildryn we pretty much have the Nidus case where the frame simply cant make use of certain skills because the kill speed of the group is too high. No one would say Nidus is poorly designed, yet building stacks (and gaining your immortality along with damage buffs) is just as @#&$-blocked by a Saryn as Hildryn is. You also have that same dilemma with many dps frame when Saryn, Mesa, Volt or any other heavy AoE frame is present. Not to mention an Iron Skin Rhino build that needs to chase down dying enemies to buff up his IS to the proper levels.

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On 2019-03-25 at 11:22 AM, Xzorn said:

Hopefully it showed the rest of the community that Shield Gating has always been a crappy idea that tries badly to aid the symptoms of a health type instead of improving the health type. I've preferred this as a solution and it works fine for enemies.

  • Shields have 70% DR. When shields take damage their DR fades by 10% over 2s. Regain 10% of Shield DR over 15s of not taking Shield Damage.

At Worst a Corpus would have 70% DR on 25% of their remaining shields after a Magnetic proc. At best we just ignore them which IMO is a whole other situation involving the damage system when it comes to Slash procs and Toxic ignoring shields. It has to be addressed on a wider scale ie Damage 3.0

I don't see shields as a health type. I see it as a means to prevent damage from being done to your health, just like armor does.

And so far, the design of the devs seems to lean in that direction, which is why they're trying these various mechanics on Hildryn (shield gating, huge shield pools, energy orbs regenerating shields, blocking status effects, etc).

Your idea is an interesting one, but I still do not personally like the idea of simply applying some form of damage reduction to shields. Even your method sounds completely boring to me. I want to see shields preventing us from taking health damage in a way that differentiates it from armor. A regenerating "second health bar" that prevents all damage from being done to your regular health is a good foundation - we just need to make it work.

Yes, I know - at higher levels we take such large amounts of damage that shields basically don't exist because they're completely blown away. I think this just means that every warframe's pool of shields are too small. If shields on EVERY warframe got even half as large as Hildryn's, that would make a big difference, wouldn't it? Then the problem simply comes down to... how should other warframes regenerate shields? Maybe that regeneration should be based on max shield percentage, for starters?

On 2019-03-25 at 7:00 PM, MJ12 said:

This is a significant problem. The only other Warframe who became more or less entirely ineffective when faced with a specific faction was pre-rework Mag, who was overpowered against Corpus (and ludicrously overpowered against Corpus in enhanced shield sorties) and good against literally nothing else, and she was redesigned in part because Warframes being non-viable against an entire faction is bad design. I think Hildryn's mostly fine regarding how she performs against Corpus/Grineer, but how ineffectual her powers are against Infested is a serious problem.

I think this is just highlighting the problem with how certain damage types can go through shields, and I am still of the opinion that Anthem got this right in their combat design: Shields blocking status effects.

I'm of the opinion right now that status effects shouldn't proc on shield targets with one, singular exception: magnetic. Naturally, damage shouldn't go through shields at all.

I mean, come on... when my Volt is set on fire, and the fire is eating away my shields... what is the fire burning? Where's the fuel that makes the fire even work? What, are shields... flammable? The flames clearly aren't touching my warframe, so it MUST be literally burning my shields. It just makes no sense!

Or what about slash procs... how the hell does that work? So my shield can completely block a cleaver from cutting me, but.... I'm still cut and now bleeding? That makes even less sense!

There's no logical reason for status effects to go THROUGH shields.
 

On 2019-03-26 at 8:15 AM, Teridax68 said:

Personally, my conclusion on shields from Hildryn is that shields don't really work, at least not anymore. Perhaps they made sense in a slower, less intense Warframe, where it made sense for the player to have one regenerating and one static health bar, to encourage a basic loop of combat and exploration, but currently we live in an era where enemy damage at higher levels is aplenty, many damage sources bypass shields entirely, and where high-level players have plenty of ways to recover their health on the fly, while newer players die to attrition in their own missions. Shield gating could be a solution to burst (though perhaps not when implemented in as intense a manner as on Hildryn), but then I still think there is a problem of enemies being able to apply burst that is simply not balanced relative to our health.

Well isn't that the point of their experiment with Hildryn? We should find a way to revamp shields so that they work, and that's part of why I'm asking what I am.

So far, most of what I get in response is about how painful it is for slash and toxin damage to go through shields, especially the status effects. I think that's the most obvious change that needs to be made to make shields matter again.

On 2019-03-25 at 12:54 PM, Mudfam said:

You can't possibly be serious?! Ever heard of quick thinking? That's how half the frames in the game don't get constantly oneshot past level 30.

Wait wait wait... isn't shield gating just quick thinking, without the energy cost?

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