Oberon improvement

[Basalto]

Reckoning dealing more damage to irradiated or punctured targets, which would work in conjunction not only with his first ability itself, but any weapon that deals radiation and/or puncture, similar to how Ember's accelerant works with any fire damage.

[NinjaZeku]

30 minutes ago, Basalto said:

Reckoning dealing more damage to irradiated [...] targets

That's been in the game for like 2 years now.

[Basalto]

38 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

That's been in the game for like 2 years now.

Well, I guess that shows how much it (didn't) worked, then.

[NinjaZeku]

23 minutes ago, Basalto said:

Well, I guess that shows how much it (didn't) worked, then.

Dunno, laying out a nicely-sized (yay Overextended) Hallowed Ground to irradiate enemies en masse,
then casting Reckoning to (shred Armor and) make use of the bonus damage, it's been working fine enough for me. *shrug*

Oberon isn't a damage-focused Frame, he's got CC, healing, multiple (de)buffing options and even a stack of get-out-of-death-free cards,
so while I'd hardly scoff at damage buffs for probably my favorite Frame, I'd primarily like his Renewal to see some more love,
reaching allies with it / re-applying it on allies who've lost the buff can get somewhat problematic.

[Basalto]

16 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

Dunno, laying out a nicely-sized (yay Overextended) Hallowed Ground to irradiate enemies en masse,
then casting Reckoning to (shred Armor and) make use of the bonus damage, it's been working fine enough for me. *shrug*

Oberon isn't a damage-focused Frame, he's got CC, healing, multiple (de)buffing options and even a stack of get-out-of-death-free cards,
so while I'd hardly scoff at damage buffs for probably my favorite Frame, I'd primarily like his Renewal to see some more love,
reaching allies with it / re-applying it on allies who've lost the buff can get somewhat problematic.

Yeah, I've had more than a few weird cases where my renewal just turned itself off while I was at full energy and getting hit from everywhere with a rage build. Personally, I appreciate the radiation CC, but the way it's handled ends up being one of those "another frame does it better" cases, case in point being, ironically, Nyx. Another issue I see is that the puncture procs from smite deal more damage to alloy than the initial radiation blast, despite radiation being the thing for alloy. I'm absolutely not opposed to Oberon's current kit, as I feel like I'm one of the few people who actually has some enjoyment playing him (partially due to some level of comprehension about the wonders of Chernobyl and making high level enemies shoot someone else), but his holy "power" feels a bit underwhelming for such a "mighty" paladin of justice and stuff. It's like he's more of a priest or something.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Saryn just beats the armor stripping too with the spores, which cost less and spread like the black plague.

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 hours ago, Basalto said:

Reckoning dealing more damage to irradiated or punctured targets

Enemies that are on HG have rather hefty amounts of armour stripped off them. With builds for Strength (as is kind of common to get the most out of his Renewal and Iron Renewal, usually helped by his easy access to Growing Power), he can achieve total armour strip in two casts, radially.

There's very few abilities that can reliably deal 2 million Effective Health damage without an Augment (like Seeking Shuriken or Sonic Fracture need them) but Oberon's Reckoning and HG combo does that. Heck if you go for even just a regular 195% Strength build on him, that's more than 50% armour per cast, meaning total strip in two.

[Madway7]

4 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Dunno, laying out a nicely-sized (yay Overextended) Hallowed Ground to irradiate enemies en masse,
then casting Reckoning to (shred Armor and) make use of the bonus damage, it's been working fine enough for me. *shrug*

Oberon isn't a damage-focused Frame, he's got CC, healing, multiple (de)buffing options and even a stack of get-out-of-death-free cards,
so while I'd hardly scoff at damage buffs for probably my favorite Frame, I'd primarily like his Renewal to see some more love,
reaching allies with it / re-applying it on allies who've lost the buff can get somewhat problematic.

I would like Hallowed Ground to get a % slow for enemies on it, not Nova levels, but enough so that it doesn't feel like his synergies are tacked on.

[Xzorn]

I always wanted Reckoning to be a ray of light from the sky that strikes and stuns enemies instead of bouncing them up and down.

Would be a lot more productive as a CC. Least for the team. I know some Oberon players love that dual sword ground finisher.

[Basalto]

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Enemies that are on HG have rather hefty amounts of armour stripped off them. With builds for Strength (as is kind of common to get the most out of his Renewal and Iron Renewal, usually helped by his easy access to Growing Power), he can achieve total armour strip in two casts, radially.

There's very few abilities that can reliably deal 2 million Effective Health damage without an Augment (like Seeking Shuriken or Sonic Fracture need them) but Oberon's Reckoning and HG combo does that. Heck if you go for even just a regular 195% Strength build on him, that's more than 50% armour per cast, meaning total strip in two.

The Wiki doesn't mention anything about HG stripping armor off, and then there's the issue of recasting abilities because doing them once doesn't cut it. The game itself doesn't mention anything about irradiated enemies taking more damage from reckoning, as well as the buff that is applied to allies who cross HG, and the armor stripping is mentioned only at the last tip in the abilities screen, which was something that didn't exactly exist not long ago.

Oberon could benefit a lot from a proper explanation of his abilities in the abilities screen itself, as such lack of information is part of why I ended up creating this thread. Not that I'm surprised that DE did such a thing, but it's always disappointing to know.

[Birdframe_Prime]

7 hours ago, Basalto said:

The Wiki doesn't mention anything about HG stripping armor off

Copy-paste directly from Wiki:

Affected enemies that survive the impact will emit an intense flash of light, blinding surrounding enemies within 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 / 4 meters that were unaffected by the initial cast, for 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 seconds. Additionally, if surviving targets were standing on  Hallowed Ground when affected by Reckoning, their armor is permanently reduced by 10% / 15% / 20% / 30%.

• Armor reduction is affected by Ability Strength.
  • Armor reduction is applied to the enemy's base armor when accounting multiple casts.
• Blind duration is affected by Ability Duration.
• Blind radius is affected by Ability Range.
• The blind mechanics and affected enemy behaviors are identical to those of  Excalibur's  Radial Blind.

7 hours ago, Basalto said:

The game itself doesn't mention anything about irradiated enemies taking more damage from reckoning

They don't, I said EHP damage, which is where Armour multiplies Health into Effective Health, so a level 100 Bombard or Gunner has over a million EHP, due to the 97% reduction of damage on their actual Health. Stripping the armour from a level 100 Corrupted Heavy Gunner takes her from an Effective 2,278,809 Health down to only 89,572 Base Health. And because even chunking that enemy down by 50% Armour is reducing that Effective total down by more than a million points... even one cast on its own, not repeated, is a massive chunk of damage and a massive boost to your general damage against those enemies.

But here's the rub; with modding the way it is, it's not hard to have access to both Growing Power and Energy Conversion. His allies could be a Loki or Speed Nova or other frames that don't need as much Strength with Power Donation. With those running? Oberon can so easily achieve 100% Armour Strip in a single cast that it's hardly even fair to the enemies.

On the other hand:

7 hours ago, Basalto said:

Oberon could benefit a lot from a proper explanation of his abilities in the abilities screen itself,

That is true, there are many examples of mechanics in the game that are deliberately not included on the abilities screen because the player is supposed to discover them by playing.

For example, Gara's Splinter Storm is refreshed every time you cast Mass Vitrify (which will also synchronise all casts of it on allies with your own timer too). But. Nowhere does it point out that the damage from Splinter Storm has the ability to scale infinitely by standing outside of your Vitrify wall and breaking it with your Shattered Lash. The explosion damage from the wall is added into the Splinter Storm per-second damage. If well-managed, this combo can mean you can simply walk up to level 100+ enemies and your aura will shred them for you.

This is deliberately not included, and I'm guessing that Iron Renewal is the same.

I agree with you, though, that these mechanics shouldn't be hidden. I'm just saying that they're not accidentally left out by DE and everything they do tell us is cherry-picked.

All in all, though, I do have to point out that some of the things you're claiming are a little... off, so please forgive me for being a bit rough with the reply.

For example: 

15 hours ago, Basalto said:

Another issue I see is that the puncture procs from smite deal more damage to alloy than the initial radiation blast, despite radiation being the thing for alloy.

Puncture Procs, the Status, do not deal damage. The proc is 'weaken' and reduces the damage that enemies deal to you by a percent. The way Smite works is that the base damage is affected by your power Strength, dealt as a base of 250 Impact and 250 Radiation (no Puncture at all), but the projectiles that form are actually based on a percentage of the enemy's Health. So each does a base damage of 150 (affected by your mods) and then 35% of the original target's maximum Health as Radiation.

This was another deliberate thing. They like 'potential' damage in Warframe, not raw damage. So any damage that's based off the damage that enemies feed in, or that you feed in with weapons, that's fine and dandy. Damage that's based on the enemy's own scaling, but has the programming that means it'll only hit the same enemy with that damage if there are no other enemies it can seek out? Also fine and dandy. With Smite generating 6 Orbs that deal a little over 35% of the enemy's max Health as damage, if all of those orbs hit the same enemy they would be taking 210% of their health as damage from one cast, which is enough to kil un-armoured enemies with no problem. Combine that with an Armour Stripping function, and you could, potentially, power Oberon through one-shotting every enemy in the game infinitely.

But the Orbs will seek other enemies, and the trick instead is to Smite the biggest enemy there to ensure that the most damage is spread around to their allies.

Again, this is on the Wiki for the reading.

It shouldn't have to be, and you're right about that. But it really is all there.

[Benour]

If you play this game without wiki open, you doing it wrong. Also nothing to rework on oberon hes top tier frame. Somebody complained about his heal "turning off on teammates randomly" guess what they went in nulli bubble and got dispelled, cast your 3 and let them just step on it, you genius. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 minutes ago, Benour said:

If you play this game without wiki open, you doing it wrong.

Yeah, except that this shouldn't be the case. Information on the game shouldn't be hidden away on a separate website.

Destiny 1 tried it with their game lore and info, and guess what? By the time Destiny 2 killed off Cayde 6, the literal poster-boy of their game, only about 1% of the players knew who 'Ace' was when Cayde said 'I'm coming home, Ace.'

When you go to an Abilities screen in a game, the full context of that Ability should be there. It shouldn't be a rough blurb and some stats that have no context. And DE knows that, which is why they've been doing things like putting video clips into the Abilities screen to give at least some context as to what is happening.

OP isn't wrong about that much, at least, because threads like this wouldn't exist if the Abilities screen actually had the full information.

[Basalto]

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Copy-paste directly from Wiki:

Affected enemies that survive the impact will emit an intense flash of light, blinding surrounding enemies within 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 / 4 meters that were unaffected by the initial cast, for 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 seconds. Additionally, if surviving targets were standing on  Hallowed Ground when affected by Reckoning, their armor is permanently reduced by 10% / 15% / 20% / 30%.

• Armor reduction is affected by Ability Strength.
  • Armor reduction is applied to the enemy's base armor when accounting multiple casts.
• Blind duration is affected by Ability Duration.
• Blind radius is affected by Ability Range.
• The blind mechanics and affected enemy behaviors are identical to those of  Excalibur's  Radial Blind.

All in all, though, I do have to point out that some of the things you're claiming are a little... off, so please forgive me for being a bit rough with the reply.

For example: 

Puncture Procs, the Status, do not deal damage. The proc is 'weaken' and reduces the damage that enemies deal to you by a percent. The way Smite works is that the base damage is affected by your power Strength, dealt as a base of 250 Impact and 250 Radiation (no Puncture at all), but the projectiles that form are actually based on a percentage of the enemy's Health. So each does a base damage of 150 (affected by your mods) and then 35% of the original target's maximum Health as Radiation.

This was another deliberate thing. They like 'potential' damage in Warframe, not raw damage. So any damage that's based off the damage that enemies feed in, or that you feed in with weapons, that's fine and dandy. Damage that's based on the enemy's own scaling, but has the programming that means it'll only hit the same enemy with that damage if there are no other enemies it can seek out? Also fine and dandy. With Smite generating 6 Orbs that deal a little over 35% of the enemy's max Health as damage, if all of those orbs hit the same enemy they would be taking 210% of their health as damage from one cast, which is enough to kil un-armoured enemies with no problem. Combine that with an Armour Stripping function, and you could, potentially, power Oberon through one-shotting every enemy in the game infinitely.

But the Orbs will seek other enemies, and the trick instead is to Smite the biggest enemy there to ensure that the most damage is spread around to their allies.

You said that enemies on HG have armor stripped from them, which was not the case, as it's reckoning that does it to enemies who are on HG. HG itself does not strip armor. And yes, I know how puncture procs work, I'm not exactly a stranger to game mechanics playing since 2014 and using the Wiki for pretty much everything, due to how badly the game explains things. You're being a bit rough, sure, but also unnecessarily so, as you simply repeated things I have read at least three times before replying.

 

4 hours ago, Benour said:

If you play this game without wiki open, you doing it wrong. Also nothing to rework on oberon hes top tier frame. Somebody complained about his heal "turning off on teammates randomly" guess what they went in nulli bubble and got dispelled, cast your 3 and let them just step on it, you genius. 

Oberon is so top tier, that nobody plays him, partially because they aren't aware of the synergies that DE never explained in the abilities screen, and partially because there are better alternatives available for the things he does. If you want to heal, get Trinity; if you want to CC, get Nyx; if you want to strip armor and deal massive damage, get Saryn. The idea of spending 150 energy just to be able to strip armor, for example, is absurd, when Saryn can just pop spores for 25 and keep them chaining on enemies and dealing increasing damage with every second. The idea of a sometimes average health regen is crushed by a warframe that can give you 75% DR and instantly heal both shields and health, who also happens to be able to do so nearly infinitely, because she has another ability to regenerate everyone's energy, including her own. I enjoy playing Oberon, but for pretty much everything he does, I have another warframe that can do it better.

[Birdframe_Prime]

29 minutes ago, Basalto said:

You said that enemies on HG have armor stripped from them, which was not the case, as it's reckoning that does it to enemies who are on HG.

Yes, I said enemies on HG have armour stripped. In reference to your complaint about Reckoning not doing enough damage. The combination, Reckoning on targets on HG, is what strips armour. Sorry for not being clearer, but that point I'm making is that Reckoning's damage isn't exactly the problem here. Oberon, as a frame, doesn't need Reckoning to have more damage as it's the combinations of his abilities that do things better than any one ability can on its own.

29 minutes ago, Basalto said:

And yes, I know how puncture procs work, I'm not exactly a stranger to game mechanics playing since 2014 and using the Wiki for pretty much everything, due to how badly the game explains things.

I'm only saying that you were quoted as saying 'the puncture procs from smite deal more damage to alloy than the initial radiation blast'. Now it was either a mis-type, or you were having a bad moment. That's fine. I was illustrating why it seems to some of us that you're getting wound up over things because you're not understanding them very well or getting them mixed up.

So you weren't making a very good case for yourself until then, see?

You did hit on one of the points that is very easy, and very logical, to support; that the info definitely should be in the game. It's not in there deliberately, on DE's part, but that's not to say they're right to do so.

A Wiki should not be needed to learn all the mechanics this game brings to the table. ::EDIT:: And Benour deserves to be slapped for being a damp biscuit.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Birdframe_Prime

[el_chanis]

On 2019-03-26 at 3:44 PM, NinjaZeku said:

I'd primarily like his Renewal to see some more love,
 reaching allies with it / re-applying it on allies who've lost the buff can get somewhat problematic.

turning it into a duration based skill instead of toggle, would be lovely to manage energy. Toggle skills overall need some sort of rework, some of them are real drawbacks, given how they interact with some of the energy sources we have.

[Dr.Wuzzah]

11 hours ago, Basalto said:

Oberon is so top tier, that nobody plays him, partially because they aren't aware of the synergies that DE never explained in the abilities screen, and partially because there are better alternatives available for the things he does. If you want to heal, get Trinity; if you want to CC, get Nyx; if you want to strip armor and deal massive damage, get Saryn. The idea of spending 150 energy just to be able to strip armor, for example, is absurd, when Saryn can just pop spores for 25 and keep them chaining on enemies and dealing increasing damage with every second. The idea of a sometimes average health regen is crushed by a warframe that can give you 75% DR and instantly heal both shields and health, who also happens to be able to do so nearly infinitely, because she has another ability to regenerate everyone's energy, including her own. I enjoy playing Oberon, but for pretty much everything he does, I have another warframe that can do it better.

You're right of course. Although I wouldn't accept anything else from someone who unconsciously walks into nullifier bubbles and then complains about abilities not working on the forums. Screw it let's just rework all of the frames because they aren't Loki and Loki is master race.

[NinjaZeku]

6 hours ago, el_chanis said:

turning it into a duration based skill instead of toggle, would be lovely to manage energy

Having it be Duration-based would kill the main thing Renewal has over other healing abilities,
in that you can have it active on the whole Squad, potentially forever, no matter how far away from Oberon everyone is.

Maybe make it a "conditional drain" toggle like Desecrate / Pacify & Provoke, only draining Energy when Health is below 100%,
that should then allow Energy regen stuff to work (mind, high Efficiency lets me keep up perma-Renewal easily enough in most missions).

[Birdframe_Prime]

33 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

Maybe make it a "conditional drain" toggle like Desecrate / Pacify & Provoke, only draining Energy when Health is below 100%

It almost has that already. If all Allies and Oberon are at full health, the Drain is one of the lowest in the game, if not the lowest, a base of only 2/second which can be reduced by a decent Duration+Efficiency setup to about 0.25/second

It only starts costing a bit when there's multiple allies, summons and pets on the field, where it costs an additional 3/second for each Ally, and 1/second for each Summon actively healed. So you can, in theory, have a base cost of up to 45/second (which is Oberon, a pet, three Nekros players, their pets, and 21 Shadows of the Dead), but with that same Duration and Efficiency modding, healing every ally, pet and summon at once would cost 11.25 per second in total.

If it's just your allies, and no Nekros player, that drops from a modded 11.25 down to 6/second.

So you either have a low background ping of energy that interrupts your energy gain, or you have up to Valkyr, Mesa or Revanent levels of drain for a bit. Considering that you can just go get a little tickled by the enemy for a Hunter Adrenaline fix to your energy total, heal up at a rate of 80+ Health/second for 1/second (base of 0.25 + 0.75 for yourself) and you're back.

What you're not likely to shift, though, is the fact that DE have made it a Drain to prevent it from being 'infinite' so that you can't out-gain the cost by using Zenurik or Gear items.

[Basalto]

21 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'm only saying that you were quoted as saying 'the puncture procs from smite deal more damage to alloy than the initial radiation blast'. Now it was either a mis-type, or you were having a bad moment. That's fine. I was illustrating why it seems to some of us that you're getting wound up over things because you're not understanding them very well or getting them mixed up.

I don't fancy calling them "orbs" because they deal puncture procs; I can't think of one round object that is actually adapted to pierce armor, specially one the size of an orb. They are puncture procs and they deal damage at the same time that they proc puncture, so while it might confuse someone with two hours into thinking that puncture procs deal damage, anyone that actually looked at the Wiki for damage 2.0 for more than two seconds will understand that I'm simply referencing the orbs' damage, because there's nothing else on Oberon's kit that causes a puncture proc along with damage. That's pretty much it.

 

10 hours ago, Dr.Wuzzah said:

You're right of course. Although I wouldn't accept anything else from someone who unconsciously walks into nullifier bubbles and then complains about abilities not working on the forums. Screw it let's just rework all of the frames because they aren't Loki and Loki is master race.

Loki so happens to be on my list of rework suggestions, due to how strength doesn't affect him at all (unless there's a courageous soul that uses strength RD on Infested) and how simple his kit is, as well as basic things, like not being able to switch places with your decoy without targeting it (could be a switch teleport hold) or switch teleport not opening enemies for finishers. He's in a bit of a "too old" case, like Rhino and his "this button deals damage, this one deals damage in a different way" mojo. I should probably brainstorm a bit and lob a thread on the feedback section later.

[Atsia]

58 minutes ago, Basalto said:

I don't fancy calling them "orbs" because they deal puncture procs; I can't think of one round object that is actually adapted to pierce armor, specially one the size of an orb. They are puncture procs and they deal damage at the same time that they proc puncture, so while it might confuse someone with two hours into thinking that puncture procs deal damage, anyone that actually looked at the Wiki for damage 2.0 for more than two seconds will understand that I'm simply referencing the orbs' damage, because there's nothing else on Oberon's kit that causes a puncture proc along with damage. That's pretty much it.

 

Loki so happens to be on my list of rework suggestions, due to how strength doesn't affect him at all (unless there's a courageous soul that uses strength RD on Infested) and how simple his kit is, as well as basic things, like not being able to switch places with your decoy without targeting it (could be a switch teleport hold) or switch teleport not opening enemies for finishers. He's in a bit of a "too old" case, like Rhino and his "this button deals damage, this one deals damage in a different way" mojo. I should probably brainstorm a bit and lob a thread on the feedback section later.

I'll say he very careful when going about that. It'll take some very meticulous ideas if you want to make strength matter in his kit (which isn't a problem IMO, I don't think it's bad if some frames can ignore a stat) and not make the kit decidedly NOT Loki. He needs more tweaks than a full rework

[Birdframe_Prime]

49 minutes ago, Basalto said:

so while it might confuse someone with two hours into thinking that puncture procs deal damage, anyone that actually looked at the Wiki for damage 2.0 for more than two seconds will understand that I'm simply referencing the orbs' damage

Look, I know I'm being pedantic here, and this is the least important thing on the thread, but this is genuinely irritating now. Because that's just as equally pendantic.

It doesn't matter what you call them in your head, it matters what they're called by the game, because Warframe is a game that literally runs on technical terminology. By naming the functions differently to their game definitions, you will only ever confuse anyone that's trying to follow along with the conversation.

This is a text-based medium, people won't just 'get' what you're talking about unless you're precise. I made that blunder earlier myself, not specifying that it was the combination of abilities that stripped armour, and you went so far off base talking about it because of my imprecision. Recognise the hypocrisy.

[BeardyKyle]

it's easy to overlook the fact that reckoning deals extra damage to radiated targets. The extra damage is not really noticed - unless you also happen to strip armor. Even so it's better to use Reckoning to strip armor and cc while dealing damage with your weapons, rather than wasting energy on another Reckoning to deal damage. 

IMO Oberon would benefit from having increased damage to irradiated targets as his passive.  

The only other improvements I can think of would be:

1. To give him a Hold cast option for Hallowed Ground that let's you do the old long ass rectangular cast - would be useful for open worlds where enemies can easily avoid your radial hallowed ground.

2. Have Oberon gain an additional benefit from Standing on HG himself - something like enemies have reduced accuracy when aiming at you. A % based "luck" ability you could say.

3. Change the Hallowed Ground augment. It's basically the same as using Reckoning but worse in every way...honestly never seen anybody run it (and if you do, why?)

4. Less to do with Oberon and more to do with Damage 3.0: IIRC the proposed changes to IPS and elemental damage could benefit Oberon, and a number of other frames a lot.