Mogamu DE interview

[Dishonored]

i really like what they did to nezha
can't wait for wukong rework !

Edited March 27, 2019 by .OwOkin.

[Lakais]

Personally, I think trying to rework CC frames into working has to come AFTER or during a full damage rework. That's the only logical, sane way to make it work is to have the foundation solidly in place. Right now it isn't. There are so many issues that feed into and work off of one another that has led us into this point and they can rework these CC frames into relevance but if and when they decide to grab the beast by the horns and go into it, they are going to have to redo it all over again. And that's just wasted time and work. 

[Armerkat]

12 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

Ember rework? Really?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I wonder how she will get f@@ked this time.

 

Best rework for her is fixing the screw up they did to WoF. That was the reason I stopped using Ember Prime, and now she sits on my shelf collecting dust. A simple fix would be to either sacrifice range OR efficiency, but not both. And to remove the build up to 100% damage. It should be 100% right from the start just like all the other warframe abilities, and the longer it's used, the less efficiency or less range.

[nslay]

5 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

DE has done the same thing with CC that I have seen too many other games do as well. The main things that it would actually be useful on are the main things that you can't use it on. The giant enemies that can both take and deal absurd amounts of damage. The ones that can kill you instantly, but you have to chip away at them slowly. This is exactly where CC is most necessary.

But no. The only enemies that are vulnerable to CC effects are the ones that you can kill super fast with almost anything anyway. So why would you ever use energy to temporarily remove the threat, when it is much more efficient to just shoot them once and completely and permanently remove the threat?

This is why the extremely rare CC effects that actually do affect the big guys are so useful. Like how Baruuk + Cobra & Crane can actually put the Wolf to sleep, though his Lull ability cannot. Though, now that I have mentioned this on the forums a couple times, I wouldn't be surprised to see it get "fixed" in a hotfix soon, even though it doesn't even really make the fight much easier, since the Cobra & Crane deals so little damage to him otherwise.

Because, like the developers of those other games, DE probably doesn't really understand how to balance CC, a difficult-to-quantify non-damage ability/effect, without either making those fights too easy or making CC useless. Obviously, keeping those fights difficult is a higher priority! So CC gets the axe...

How would you do it? I'm sure DE does not know how! Tell us a solution to balance those CC effects/abilities. What would you even compare? How do you model, say, DPS increase as a function of <insert fancy CC effect/ability> in general? I know that DPS increases for certain CC because if you can stand and shoot a target uninterrupted, you have higher DPS! How do you quantity that in general?

 

[peterc3]

3 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Unless Pablo does it, it will be a fail.

It was a mistake to make him more public.

[zoffmode]

3 hours ago, nslay said:

Because, like the developers of those other games, DE probably doesn't really understand how to balance CC, a difficult-to-quantify non-damage ability/effect, without either making those fights too easy or making CC useless. Obviously, keeping those fights difficult is a higher priority! So CC gets the axe...

How would you do it? I'm sure DE does not know how! Tell us a solution to balance those CC effects/abilities. What would you even compare? How do you model, say, DPS increase as a function of <insert fancy CC effect/ability> in general? I know that DPS increases for certain CC because if you can stand and shoot a target uninterrupted, you have higher DPS! How do you quantity that in general?

 

I would say it's better to allow CC and instead give damage mitigation to abilities when it comes to enemy resistances. When CC abilities are used, there are 2 actions: cc and then shoot them with guns. When damage abilities are used, there is only one action of straight up killing the enemy. Player engagement is obviously more present on CC abilities rather than damage. That's why people use damage abilities for farming cause it's just less input and less work. 

There's also buffing your own damage abilities which is honestly also minimal player engagement. You just keep up your buff (unless it's actually skillful one like getting headshots or something).

Not trying to sidestep your questions, but I think DPS increase discussion to CC aspect is not really how you should look at it. I think CC abilities are great to have in a team video game simply because the player engagement & teamwork is more interesting.

[nslay]

30 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

I would say it's better to allow CC and instead give damage mitigation to abilities when it comes to enemy resistances. When CC abilities are used, there are 2 actions: cc and then shoot them with guns. When damage abilities are used, there is only one action of straight up killing the enemy. Player engagement is obviously more present on CC abilities rather than damage. That's why people use damage abilities for farming cause it's just less input and less work. 

There's also buffing your own damage abilities which is honestly also minimal player engagement. You just keep up your buff (unless it's actually skillful one like getting headshots or something).

Not trying to sidestep your questions, but I think DPS increase discussion to CC aspect is not really how you should look at it. I think CC abilities are great to have in a team video game simply because the player engagement & teamwork is more interesting. 

I'm only giving you an example of the complicated relationship between CC effects and DPS! I do not pretend to know how to balance CC because it's complicated to quantify all these different aspects. How about effective HP vs CC? Obviously certain CC effects increase survivability... by how much!? How do you quantify that in general? These guys need numbers to do the balancing... Vauban's CC ability lifts guys in the air, does that equate to some X% increase in effective HP? What is X on average?

You know why straight-up damage increase abilities and straight-up damage mitigation abilities exist? Because they're easier to balance... you have a straightforward X% increase in <something> that can be put into MATLAB or a spreadsheet or some solver and you voila, you've got parameters to balance some aspect of an ability or a weapon. How do you do that for CC?

[zoffmode]

28 minutes ago, nslay said:

I'm only giving you an example of the complicated relationship between CC effects and DPS! I do not pretend to know how to balance CC because it's complicated to quantify all these different aspects. How about effective HP vs CC? Obviously certain CC effects increase survivability... by how much!? How do you quantify that in general? These guys need numbers to do the balancing... Vauban's CC ability lifts guys in the air, does that equate to some X% increase in effective HP? What is X on average?

You know why straight-up damage increase abilities and straight-up damage mitigation abilities exist? Because they're easier to balance... you have a straightforward X% increase in <something> that can be put into MATLAB or a spreadsheet or some solver and you voila, you've got parameters to balance some aspect of an ability or a weapon. How do you do that for CC?

I don't think they use anything like that to balance. Straight up damage buffs clearly breaks the game but that doesn't bother them. Hell, DE doesn't even bother to balance riven dispositions and that is pure numbers that are fairly easy to obtain. So no, I don't think it's anything that complicated. Took years for DE to fix shotguns to be usable as well back in the days and that was just some simple number tweaks that would've taken maybe a week if they had a good system for balancing.

[nslay]

7 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

I don't think they use anything like that to balance. Straight up damage buffs clearly breaks the game but that doesn't bother them. Hell, DE doesn't even bother to balance riven dispositions and that is pure numbers that are fairly easy to obtain. So no, I don't think it's anything that complicated. Took years for DE to fix shotguns to be usable as well back in the days and that was just some simple number tweaks that would've taken maybe a week if they had a good system for balancing.

Yeah, I believe they might take a carefree approach to balancing, but you know... you look in your abilities screen or your weapon stats. Do you think they just rolled some dice to come up with every single one of those values? Myeah, I'm in a good mood, maybe I think this value should, hmm, 15% crit on this weapon ....and uhh, mmm 25 slash damage... I'm feeling like this warframe ability should cost 20 energy per second, yeah, let's go with that... yeah, let's do that.

[Campaigner]

18 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

Ember rework? Really?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I wonder how she will get f@@ked this time.

 

Lol I love DE and don't say this to stress them out, but yeah i almost forgot about what happened to Ember. She used to be a favorite of mine before they made her a "use 4 twice every 10 seconds" in addition to the required 2 spam. It used to be fun just keeping 4 up and using 1 and 2 situationally.

[Teljaxx]

8 hours ago, nslay said:

Because, like the developers of those other games, DE probably doesn't really understand how to balance CC, a difficult-to-quantify non-damage ability/effect, without either making those fights too easy or making CC useless. Obviously, keeping those fights difficult is a higher priority! So CC gets the axe...

How would you do it? I'm sure DE does not know how! Tell us a solution to balance those CC effects/abilities. What would you even compare? How do you model, say, DPS increase as a function of <insert fancy CC effect/ability> in general? I know that DPS increases for certain CC because if you can stand and shoot a target uninterrupted, you have higher DPS! How do you quantity that in general?

 

Well, as you said, CC is quite difficult to balance. It is far more complicated than simple DPS vs EHP. Especially when you have so many potential sources, and forms of it to deal with. Every different method of controlling an enemy has an entirely different effect on a fight, and being able to stack effects just compounds the issue even further.  There usually isn't one catch all solution. What may only slightly inconvenience one enemy, may completely trivialize another. And one effect may never be very useful on its own, but combined with another may become incredibly overpowered.

The best way I have ever seen this done is to give each enemy its own sets of resistances, vulnerabilities, and immunities. Like a boss that is immune to sleep and stun, resistant to slowing, but can be easily frozen. They could also rotate vulnerabilities through different phases of the fight, so you have to vary your tactics. This means that DE would have complete control over exactly how complicated a fight is, and could intentionally set up specific methods of fighting them that are as effective, or ineffective, as they want. It would also allow for much more complicated fights than just simple bullet sponges, like the Wolf, without having to completely negate almost all our powers, like the Exploiter Orb. Trying to simply make this lazy, all or nothing system that they have now fit with every fight is never going to work very well.

[Gentleman_Bird]

What's Kingpin? This is the first I've heard of it.

[KokoroWish]

Reeeeeally looking forward to them taking a look at the game's ability/powers balance. Exploiter really pointed out that it needs to be looked at, as the only way that could have been a good an experience as it was is if powers were a limited factor.

[Kontrollo]

7 hours ago, nslay said:

I'm only giving you an example of the complicated relationship between CC effects and DPS! I do not pretend to know how to balance CC because it's complicated to quantify all these different aspects. How about effective HP vs CC? Obviously certain CC effects increase survivability... by how much!? How do you quantify that in general? These guys need numbers to do the balancing... Vauban's CC ability lifts guys in the air, does that equate to some X% increase in effective HP? What is X on average?

It's pretty simple to quantify, actually. Run it often enough, then do a statistical analysis.

You just need to be careful about keeping track of your test environment, i.e. make sure you don't accidentally introduce an element that skews your experimental results.

[Aldain]

On 2019-03-26 at 11:37 PM, Atsia said:

Frames Reworks? Vauban, Ember, and Wukong are currently up next it seems

PRAISE BE TO BOOBEN

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

Instead adding another non-combat game mode, DE should improve on the current ones. 3 that come to mind are...

1. I would actually pay (like $10) for frame fighter, if it had a single player vs computer and a tournament mode, like most games of the genre. DE has a good library of weapons, fighting stances and melee combos they could easily integrate to make soul calibur like game where players choose their weapons and frames. DE give this game mode more love please.

2. Lunaro is nicely done but there is no one to play with and little incentive to play. I always felt that lunaro should be tied to the pve syndicates as a secondary path to level synchicate rep but again this mode needs an option to play against the computer too. If anything to get folks interested because right now I am just waiting for folks to join.

3. Archwing missions... honestly I do not know where to start. I'm to the point of let us use our warframe powers instead of the archwing powers and the archwings simply provide passive benefits or something. But this is just me.

[Kaotyke]

10 hours ago, Gentleman_Bird said:

What's Kingpin? This is the first I've heard of it.

It was supposed to be something akin to a "Nemesis System" that Shadow of Mordor had.

Investigate the target. Find them, kill them to death. Or they escape so they become more powerful and might find and come for your dojo and you would have to defend it.

[Springlake]

21 hours ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

I thought Space Dad was Ballas technically? Since he continued with Margulis' work on Transference to make frames and all that jazz.

I think the reference here is Man in the Wall. Because he keeps quoting the Operators actual dad with the "Hey Kiddo" thing.

[Sayune]

great interview! thx for sharing 👍

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

26 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

It was supposed to be something akin to a "Nemesis System" that Shadow of Mordor had.

Investigate the target. Find them, kill them to death. Or they escape so they become more powerful and might find and come for your dojo and you would have to defend it.

That would have been fricken awesome!

Buuut nahhh we get battlepass.. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

9 minutes ago, Springlake said:

I think the reference here is Man in the Wall. Because he keeps quoting the Operators actual dad with the "Hey Kiddo" thing.

You're probably right. Our Operator family lineage is wack 😋

[Sibernetika]

I forgot mogamu is a thing since I started avoiding his content when all he did was complain (it was around the time the Corinth was released) and for once the youtube algorithm actually did something I wanted it to... Remove mogamu from my recommended, suggested or ever showing up on my screen.. Hope this doesn't Jinx it

[nslay]

7 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

It's pretty simple to quantify, actually. Run it often enough, then do a statistical analysis.

You just need to be careful about keeping track of your test environment, i.e. make sure you don't accidentally introduce an element that skews your experimental results.

Yeah, that's one way to do it. But you need to be careful in more ways than that! Blizzard has a public test realm for D3 where they likely gather these numbers in relatively large quantities (need a large sample to do statistical analysis!). The limitations of this, aside of practicality (need to download another 10GB game, the test client), is that 1) few players actually want to test new features and lose all progress in the test mode, 2) the test realm is time limited which may not be enough time for players to learn effective builds and strategies.

Compound that with the massive size of the Warframe universe and mods, weapons, frames that many potential testers would not have access to. I think DE can work around this by making special test mission nodes for each game mode that reward potatoes/adapters with a Simulcrum-like equipment device at mission start to prepare for different phases of the test (e.g. 15 waves of survival, 5 current game, 5 warm up with new changes, 5 recorded with new changes). 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

On ‎27‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 4:37 AM, Atsia said:

What happening with Kingpin?

infinite Hiatus is basically DE's way of saying "not happening", like with Dark Sectors. personally I think they prefer the Nightwave system, it still has you going after a Priority target, it's just not tied to clans and Dojos.

On ‎27‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 4:37 AM, Atsia said:

PvP overhaul/Battle Royal? We're apparently gonna be getting a non-combat PvP option, like Lunaro laser this year.

good. I likely won't be touching it with a 40-foot pole but it's good for those wanting PvP. I just wish the Battle Royal phase would wither and die out already.

On ‎27‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 4:37 AM, Atsia said:

More lore for Ordis?

if it lets us see him in action as The Beast of Bones and makes Ordis stop pretending to be Lotus, then I'm absolutely all for this, can't wait!

On ‎27‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 4:37 AM, Atsia said:

Anything lore coming for the Infestation room? Reiteration of what we knew, more stuff is coming, eventually.

this is good, Helminth is an interesting character with some potential IMO, so expanding on him would be nice, as would giving us more thigns to do in his Room on board the Orbiter.

On ‎27‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 4:37 AM, Atsia said:

Confirmed, Space Dad coming this year.

am I the only one who's gonna wonder what our dad looks like? when you think of how, ahem... *different* from one another each of our Operators can look, I'm not sure how DE can make a character that immediately makes you think "yes, that's dad", especially when some people might have some freakish Operators.. I guess he could appear in a spirit form or something idk, but it just makes chuckle to think of space dad having a different face, hair, skin colour etc. to his supposed biological child.

On ‎27‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 4:37 AM, Atsia said:

Cross platform/cross save?

not gonna hold my breath on this one. I think many people dream of a Utopian future where all platforms put their differences aside and crossplay everything with everyone, into one big party. too bad that can't happen.

On ‎27‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 4:37 AM, Atsia said:

What's up with the Flydolon?

no rush, some of us still haven't done Profit Taker. I just hope there won't be ludicrous AoE spam/infinite adds/invincibility phases or any other cheap tricks, but we'll see.

On ‎27‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 4:37 AM, Atsia said:

Past events coming back?

Plan A takes more work, but would allow those of us who started playing after those events to enjoy the dialogue. plan B isn't as immersive, just reading paragraphs, but it would be easier to implement. personally I like the idea of them returning as some kind of flashback quests: one of the characters tells us how the even unfolded canonically and our Tenno imagines themselves taking part in it. just seems weird to bring back things like Oxium Espionage when we've been slaughtering Oxium Ospreys for literal years now.

On ‎27‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 4:37 AM, Atsia said:

Vauban, Ember, and Wukong are currently up next it seems, and Reb goes a little bit into the though process of doing reworks, like how if they don't get reworked into a damage master, they'll still not fit in, so how do they change him or other things in the game to bring someone like Vauban (and all CC frames) into the current state of gameplay.

so DE have finally recognised that content is currently centred around DPS tactics, leaving little room for CC lovers to properly benefit their teams in modes like ESO. now they've said it, we need to start seeing something more concrete, actually doing something about it. Vauban definitely needs looking at, as does Wukong. there might be some disagreement amongst Ember fans but I personally think she got nerfed way too hard and welcome this new rework, I just hope they don't somehow make her, or Vauban or Wukong, any worse.

get Pablo on it, he knows what he's doing.

[Atsia]

The second part of the interview is up for anyone who wants to go watch it, I'll be doing a summary later.