Riven Synergy

[-Antares-]

Some rivens basically stopped working with synergy nerfs, for example I like to have 200%/300%/400% (± 1-2%) multishot to make my damage stable, now, after nerf I have 190%-ish, which is unaccceptable, because it makes my dps bumpy. I spent lots of time and platinum to find and buy this riven, and now I’m forced to sell it, because it simply doesn’t correlate with my playstyle anymore. I have two more good rivens with 5/5 synergy and perfectly matched with my needs, should I sell them as well, because they will get nerfed too? I mean, what’s the point of using rivens then, if DE can change their efficiency when they want? Can I ask for a platinum I spent for this riven? Because clearly it’s not the same mod I bought, right? Basically DE took away what I had and gave me smth I don’t need in return, without any compensation, I would never, I repeat, NEVER buy a riven I got after the nerf. This happened to lots of people and this can happen to the rest, so I guess this problem needs to be discussed.

[K4RN4]

19 minutes ago, -Antares- said:

I mean, what’s the point of using rivens then, if DE can change their efficiency when they want?

The point is balancing weapons, so everything is viable. Therefore disposition changes are necessary.

22 minutes ago, -Antares- said:

I mean, what’s the point of using rivens then, if DE can change their efficiency when they want

I mean what's the point of using any warframe, if DE can change their abilities when they want.

 

24 minutes ago, -Antares- said:

Basically DE took away what I had and gave me smth I don’t need in return, without any compensation, 

1. Do you know what "without any compensation" means? 

2. You do not own anything in game, so no one can take ot away from you.

3. You sound pretty picky with your modding. Calling 190% multishot instead of 200% unacceptable. DE can't just stop rebalancing because one person will have "bumpy DPS".

[-Antares-]

Только что, K4RN4 сказал:

The point is balancing weapons, so everything is viable. Therefore disposition changes are necessary.

31 минуту назад, -Antares- сказал:

They can balance weapons upon release to not ruin player's choice of rivens.

1 минуту назад, K4RN4 сказал:

I mean what's the point of using any warframe, if DE can change their abilities when they want.

 

You don't spend plat or kuva on warframes. But actually that's s problem as well: they "reworked" Ash and Ember, now these warframes are unplayable and completely out of meta.

3 минуты назад, K4RN4 сказал:

1. Do you know what "without any compensation" means? 

 2. You do not own anything in game, so no one can take ot away from you.

3. You sound pretty picky with your modding. Calling 190% multishot instead of 200% unacceptable. DE can't just stop rebalancing because one person will have "bumpy DPS".

I'm perfectly aware, that everything belongs to DE, but it doesn't mean they don't want to hear any critics, because they actually want to improve the game for us, players, to make it better, so we won't leave. And it doesn't really matter what I like, what really matters — they change rivens, so the player, who spent platinum for it, spent it for nothing. I repeat, I would never buy a riven they gave me after nerf. And "DE can't stop rebalancing" doesn't really solve the problem, because it still means there is no point in using rivens, unless you're lucky and got a god roll from sortie.

[K4RN4]

1 minute ago, -Antares- said:

 They can balance weapons upon release to not ruin player's choice of rivens.

If all weapons would have equally good stats on release, there would be no sense pf progression when acquiring new weapons as a new player. Weapons have to get better with higher mastery rank. Rivens are there to give long time players the option to use low MR weapons, while still being cometitive.

5 minutes ago, -Antares- said:

You don't spend plat [...] on warframes

That is straight up false.

6 minutes ago, -Antares- said:

But actually that's a problem as well: they "reworked" Ash and Ember, now these warframes are unplayable and completely out of meta

They are not even close to unplayable.

I would say something about "out of meta", but as that is a very vague term and I don't know your definition of it, you would have to define your definition of meta.

15 minutes ago, -Antares- said:

And "DE can't stop rebalancing" doesn't really solve the problem, because it still means there is no point in using rivens, unless you're lucky and got a god roll from sortie.

I think this is a problem pretty specific to you, as I would imagine a majority of players is alright with these minor adjustments, leading to bumpy dps. At least you are the first person I heard of that is this picky with the ammount of multishot. I personally wouldn't have a problem with 190% or 180% multishot.

If my assumption is correct and it is a problem only a few players have, I don't think DE can really show any consideration towards this problem.

[-Antares-]

1 минуту назад, K4RN4 сказал:

If all weapons would have equally good stats on release, there would be no sense pf progression when acquiring new weapons as a new player. Weapons have to get better with higher mastery rank. Rivens are there to give long time players the option to use low MR weapons, while still being cometitive.

25 минут назад, -Antares- сказал:

If all weapons would have equally good stats on release — they all would be used having equal % of usage among players. What we have now? 70% of weapons are garbage for high levels, meanwhile you can use absolutely any weapon with just maxed serration / point blank / hornet strike to finish any basic planetary mission.

4 минуты назад, K4RN4 сказал:

That is straight up false.

28 минут назад, -Antares- сказал:

No, YOU are straight up false. You don't spend any significant amont of plat on warframe, you literally can't do that.

5 минут назад, K4RN4 сказал:

They are not even close to unplayable.

I would say something about "out of meta", but as that is a very vague term and I don't know your definition of it, you would have to define your definition of meta.

Dude, like what mastery are you and against what levels do you play? From what I hear, I can guess you're just finished Earth, at that point I completely agree, that Ember and Ash are okay, just like Atlas and Valkyr. Hilarious.

9 минут назад, K4RN4 сказал:

I think this is a problem pretty specific to you, as I would imagine a majority of players is alright with these minor adjustments, leading to bumpy dps. At least you are the first person I heard of that is this picky with the ammount of multishot. I personally wouldn't have a problem with 190% or 180% multishot.

If my assumption is correct and it is a problem only a few players have, I don't think DE can really show any consideration towards this problem.

Majority of players are below mastery 15, it doesn't mean DE doesn't need to listen to the veterans. I realize there are little to no players who posess some useful knowledge about riven mechanics and suffer from riven reworks, but I guess they can do smth else instead of butchering builds and wasting other players time they spend searching for riven and farming plat for it.

[000l000]

Il y a 4 heures, -Antares- a dit :

Some rivens basically stopped working with synergy nerfs, for example I like to have 200%/300%/400% (± 1-2%) multishot to make my damage stable, now, after nerf I have 190%-ish, which is unaccceptable, because it makes my dps bumpy. I spent lots of time and platinum to find and buy this riven, and now I’m forced to sell it, because it simply doesn’t correlate with my playstyle anymore. I have two more good rivens with 5/5 synergy and perfectly matched with my needs, should I sell them as well, because they will get nerfed too? I mean, what’s the point of using rivens then, if DE can change their efficiency when they want? Can I ask for a platinum I spent for this riven? Because clearly it’s not the same mod I bought, right? Basically DE took away what I had and gave me smth I don’t need in return, without any compensation, I would never, I repeat, NEVER buy a riven I got after the nerf. This happened to lots of people and this can happen to the rest, so I guess this problem needs to be discussed.

No offense but no one forced you to spend your life and tons of plat to get any riven, that's your own and only concern. You can blame DE all day long but at the end you only need to take some responsabilities here.

And losing 1-10% multishot impairs no gameplay at all, if you think you can't play the same way because of that, that's only drama. The only thing that could eventually be impaired by a riven nerf is shotgun status chance if you were at 100%.

It's also quite naive to think that 5 disposition rivens wouldn't be nerfed especially if you're playing with some meta stuff (ie. brand new prime with high disposition). Everyone here knew that, why you didn't ? And tbh good luck with that cause i'm pretty sure your rivens will be nerfed, again. Popularity has a price !

[AzureTerra]

11 hours ago, -Antares- said:

Some rivens basically stopped working with synergy nerfs, for example I like to have 200%/300%/400% (± 1-2%) multishot to make my damage stable, now, after nerf I have 190%-ish, which is unaccceptable, because it makes my dps bumpy. I spent lots of time and platinum to find and buy this riven, and now I’m forced to sell it, because it simply doesn’t correlate with my playstyle anymore. I have two more good rivens with 5/5 synergy and perfectly matched with my needs, should I sell them as well, because they will get nerfed too? I mean, what’s the point of using rivens then, if DE can change their efficiency when they want? Can I ask for a platinum I spent for this riven? Because clearly it’s not the same mod I bought, right? Basically DE took away what I had and gave me smth I don’t need in return, without any compensation, I would never, I repeat, NEVER buy a riven I got after the nerf. This happened to lots of people and this can happen to the rest, so I guess this problem needs to be discussed.

Daww, You spent too much on a completely optional subject to change mod type that you apparently cant use at all since you have "have it be exactly" how it was or your "dps" gets mucked up.  Quel dommage!

You are owed nothing, no one is for anything of that system that has been announced many times that its subject to change and that is the risk you choose to take when you decide to pay any amount of platinum for a item (particularly one with as variable a price as the randomess of its stats) DE can do what they please with the game they own and let you play, The point of them is to let people with a set of bounds tweak some of the weapons to go above what they normally do, predominately its skewed in the favor of the less popular riven to maybe get people playing them more. Your efficiency problems are your own and yes if you cant handle that its changed its probably for the better that you divest yourself of them since adapting to change is not on your CV.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

The only instance in which I feel Multishot plays an integral role in a gun where Rivens are concerned is the Simulor family, where +300% Multishot saves you a shot for orb merging into vortexes. Otherwise it’s just additional damage (this being extremely apparent for beam weapons since multishot damage doesn’t proc additional status chance, just damage).

Where Rivens are now, the only time I feel that the community should ever voice their concern is with regards to Status Chance. Fortunately for me from the last Riven balance pass, my Rivens for Euphona Prime and shotguns haven’t affected the Status Chance too drastically to affect my builds. I’m still able to achieve 100% Status Chance before Multishot with the same build that I rock with.

Multishot, from my perspective, is only a matter of dps increase. Unless it’s affecting the Simulor family, there shouldn’t be much of a concern for that stat affecting how you play.

[-Antares-]

57 минут назад, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 сказал:

The only instance in which I feel Multishot plays an integral role in a gun where Rivens are concerned is the Simulor family, where +300% Multishot saves you a shot for orb merging into vortexes. Otherwise it’s just additional damage (this being extremely apparent for beam weapons since multishot damage doesn’t proc additional status chance, just damage).

Where Rivens are now, the only time I feel that the community should ever voice their concern is with regards to Status Chance. Fortunately for me from the last Riven balance pass, my Rivens for Euphona Prime and shotguns haven’t affected the Status Chance too drastically to affect my builds. I’m still able to achieve 100% Status Chance before Multishot with the same build that I rock with.

Multishot, from my perspective, is only a matter of dps increase. Unless it’s affecting the Simulor family, there shouldn’t be much of a concern for that stat affecting how you play.

Less multishot reduces the amount of bullets you shoot, when I require 10 bullets (for example) to kill an enemy, sometimes I'll shoot 8, which can lead to my death and potentially a fail of the mission. That's why I never go like 250% multishot, because this will make your damage either too good, or too S#&$ty, and you can't predict what will you roll on your next shot. This is something, that can make impact on higher levels, if people above are not considering it as a problem — then they never tried anything above sorties, period.

[m0b1us1]

So are you saying that no one had "synergy" until rivens? Because no multishot mod gives only 100% ms.

I think you value videos you see on YouTube of "god rolls" too much. 

Sybaris p, tiberon p, vectis p, amprex, arca plasmor, corinth, Tigris p, and tons of others all easily take on end game content without a riven. 

Instead of looking at raw stats, you should look how those stats effect performance. Example, against a level 10 lancer, a tiberon p will one shot them with or without any mods, let alone a riven. So if that is all you face, does increasing your damage have any affect on performance? Of course not.

Now let's face off against a level 150 corrupted gunner. If you have a tiberon build with a riv, and another without, what is the difference in time and resources to kill? Then you have to factor in consistency as you will not always be landing head shots outside of simulacrum. To say that a drop in 10% multishot ruins your weapon is just silly. There are so many other factors you have to consider that will have far more impact. 

So before you go out and buy a so called "god riven", first consider exactly at what point will it be worth it. At what point will the riven build simply eclipse a standard build and how often will you encounter that. Example, redeemer p. A standard build can one shot level 160 corrupted enemies. A riven build can also do that, but at what level will the difference be notable and necessary?

It's like trying to teach a new chess player that you don't have to VERY win and capture every piece, you just have to win.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

53 minutes ago, -Antares- said:

Less multishot reduces the amount of bullets you shoot, when I require 10 bullets (for example) to kill an enemy, sometimes I'll shoot 8, which can lead to my death and potentially a fail of the mission. That's why I never go like 250% multishot, because this will make your damage either too good, or too S#&$ty, and you can't predict what will you roll on your next shot. This is something, that can make impact on higher levels, if people above are not considering it as a problem — then they never tried anything above sorties, period.

I see. I guess it’s a valid concern, but the way I see it your options would be to compensate with regards to damage, crit multiplier, 3-4 CP scenarios with Coaction Drift depending if you’re going below the 4CP max to completely strip armor, increasing fire rate for ARs to pump those bullets for more status chance than utilizing dual stat mods, etc.

I’ve gone endless a couple of times, but usually I try to limit myself (at max) 2 hours or so where Kuva Survival is concerned based on my attentive capacity. I used to go 3 hours or so in Mot back then, especially when Tower Keys were present with Tower 4 Survival, but not anymore. 

Going endless is fun, I used to like it. But now that the game is drifting away from its necessity where drops/rewards aren’t affected I haven’t done it with Warframe’s current build. 

[-Antares-]

2 часа назад, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 сказал:

I see. I guess it’s a valid concern, but the way I see it your options would be to compensate with regards to damage, crit multiplier, 3-4 CP scenarios with Coaction Drift depending if you’re going below the 4CP max to completely strip armor, increasing fire rate for ARs to pump those bullets for more status chance than utilizing dual stat mods, etc.

I’ve gone endless a couple of times, but usually I try to limit myself (at max) 2 hours or so where Kuva Survival is concerned based on my attentive capacity. I used to go 3 hours or so in Mot back then, especially when Tower Keys were present with Tower 4 Survival, but not anymore. 

Going endless is fun, I used to like it. But now that the game is drifting away from its necessity where drops/rewards aren’t affected I haven’t done it with Warframe’s current build. 

Well, that's the talk of a clever man. Ty for your feedback.

[-Antares-]

2 часа назад, m0b1us1 сказал:

So are you saying that no one had "synergy" until rivens? Because no multishot mod gives only 100% ms.

I think you value videos you see on YouTube of "god rolls" too much. 

Sybaris p, tiberon p, vectis p, amprex, arca plasmor, corinth, Tigris p, and tons of others all easily take on end game content without a riven. 

Instead of looking at raw stats, you should look how those stats effect performance. Example, against a level 10 lancer, a tiberon p will one shot them with or without any mods, let alone a riven. So if that is all you face, does increasing your damage have any affect on performance? Of course not.

Now let's face off against a level 150 corrupted gunner. If you have a tiberon build with a riv, and another without, what is the difference in time and resources to kill? Then you have to factor in consistency as you will not always be landing head shots outside of simulacrum. To say that a drop in 10% multishot ruins your weapon is just silly. There are so many other factors you have to consider that will have far more impact. 

So before you go out and buy a so called "god riven", first consider exactly at what point will it be worth it. At what point will the riven build simply eclipse a standard build and how often will you encounter that. Example, redeemer p. A standard build can one shot level 160 corrupted enemies. A riven build can also do that, but at what level will the difference be notable and necessary?

It's like trying to teach a new chess player that you don't have to VERY win and capture every piece, you just have to win.

This is also a good point, but we're talking about personal preferences, and you can't really dictate me what should I like. You basically tell me to forget about rivens and play without them, but what if I just want to have it? And yes, I like to consider everything, good roll on riven included. I want to be sure I won't shoot 5 bullets instead of 8 when I have the last revive remaining. Besides, it's not even about my particular riven, some people can get messed with status chance, when it drops below 100% on a shotgun just because synergy nerf, and suddenly the riven is garbage. I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain.

[m0b1us1]

55 minutes ago, -Antares- said:

This is also a good point, but we're talking about personal preferences, and you can't really dictate me what should I like. You basically tell me to forget about rivens and play without them, but what if I just want to have it? And yes, I like to consider everything, good roll on riven included. I want to be sure I won't shoot 5 bullets instead of 8 when I have the last revive remaining. Besides, it's not even about my particular riven, some people can get messed with status chance, when it drops below 100% on a shotgun just because synergy nerf, and suddenly the riven is garbage. I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain.

Not at all. What I am saying is that it's extremely unlikely you will ever get to a point where 10% multishot will ever make or break winning or losing. So unless you play for 3+ hour survival or longer where the enemy armor and hp scale to absurd levels where ammo economy become a big issue, you won't see a noticeable difference of a 10% multishot loss. Also pretty sure you can't lose 10% multishot and go from 8 bullets to 5. Can't really think of any case where that could happen.

Revives really aren't an issue determined by 10% multishot. I don't even go down in 2 hour arbitrations. 

Multishot on shotguns is not what makes status on shotguns so crazy. The status chance you see normally on shotguns is the chance for at least 1 pellet to proc a status. Multishot simply increases the number of pellets so then each additional pellet also has the same chance to proc a status. The power of something like the Tigris p comes BEFORE multishot is even accounted. You want to hit 100% status before multishot mods as that will ensure that every single pellet procs a status. So a 10% multishot nerf on a status based shotgun riven will have no effect on its power with status chance.

So if you think you had 100% status chance on a shotgun WITH multishot, then you aren't seeing even half of how strong it is. For a status shotgun, status chance is far more necessary than multishot.

I think it's apparent you really aren't that experienced with this game yet.

[-Antares-]

2 часа назад, m0b1us1 сказал:

Not at all. What I am saying is that it's extremely unlikely you will ever get to a point where 10% multishot will ever make or break winning or losing. So unless you play for 3+ hour survival or longer where the enemy armor and hp scale to absurd levels where ammo economy become a big issue, you won't see a noticeable difference of a 10% multishot loss. Also pretty sure you can't lose 10% multishot and go from 8 bullets to 5. Can't really think of any case where that could happen.

Revives really aren't an issue determined by 10% multishot. I don't even go down in 2 hour arbitrations. 

Multishot on shotguns is not what makes status on shotguns so crazy. The status chance you see normally on shotguns is the chance for at least 1 pellet to proc a status. Multishot simply increases the number of pellets so then each additional pellet also has the same chance to proc a status. The power of something like the Tigris p comes BEFORE multishot is even accounted. You want to hit 100% status before multishot mods as that will ensure that every single pellet procs a status. So a 10% multishot nerf on a status based shotgun riven will have no effect on its power with status chance.

So if you think you had 100% status chance on a shotgun WITH multishot, then you aren't seeing even half of how strong it is. For a status shotgun, status chance is far more necessary than multishot.

I think it's apparent you really aren't that experienced with this game yet.

I don't know why are you explaining me that, because I'm playing since 2013 and know all of it for a very long time. It seems you completely missed the point with your second answer, but whatever, I can already see I found no support here. I feel the difference and my riven is weaker now, because it requires 1 more shot for 155 corrupted. And I repeat again: I would not buy this riven if smb offered it to me right now, at least I would half the price. DE basically took my platinum by synergy rework. They can do that, because it's their platinum anyway, but this situation tells much about their attitude. Moderator can close it now.

[m0b1us1]

13 hours ago, -Antares- said:

I don't know why are you explaining me that, because I'm playing since 2013 and know all of it for a very long time. It seems you completely missed the point with your second answer, but whatever, I can already see I found no support here. I feel the difference and my riven is weaker now, because it requires 1 more shot for 155 corrupted. And I repeat again: I would not buy this riven if smb offered it to me right now, at least I would half the price. DE basically took my platinum by synergy rework. They can do that, because it's their platinum anyway, but this situation tells much about their attitude. Moderator can close it now.

Well that's because you claimed that status chance on a shotgun would drop below 100% if they lost multishot. So that implies you don't understand how status shotguns work. You also are calling disposition synergy. That coupled with your "I run out of revives and fail the mission" also points to someone who doesn't have that much experience or gear. I think that's strong evidence to point to you not being that experienced.

10% lost in multishot would mean that it would still perform the exact same 90% of the time (unless you went from something like 205% to 195%, then there would be that 1/20 chance for the 10% to give you an extra shot). 10 garuntee pellets to 10 90% of the time and 9 10% of the time. Did you account for any DoTs? Have you seen a real difference outside the simulacrum?

I think you paid way too much for a riven thinking it would make you significantly stronger, got mad when it was nerfed, then tried to justify why it was wrong to be nerfed. 

[-Antares-]

6 минут назад, m0b1us1 сказал:

Well that's because you claimed that status chance on a shotgun would drop below 100% if they lost multishot.

I never said anything like this. I said about other rivens with + status chance in them, which are making 100% status on a shotgun, while it can drop due to disposition nerf and become useless. I'm perfectly aware multishot increasing status and damage on the stats is basically misrepresentation, it just adds additinal bullets/pellets per shot, which can proc status with absolutely same chance.

[m0b1us1]

3 minutes ago, -Antares- said:

I never said anything like this. I said about other rivens with + status chance in them, which are making 100% status on a shotgun, while it can drop due to disposition nerf and become useless. I'm perfectly aware multishot increasing status and damage on the stats is basically misrepresentation, it just adds additinal bullets/pellets per shot, which can proc status with absolutely same chance.

"When it drops below 100% on a shotgun just because of synergy nerf"

I don't think there is any status shotgun where a disposition nerf would make it drop below 100% status chance. Unless you had just high enough stats on it to replace a dual stat without losing 100% status.

But you weren't talking about status originally. You are talking about multishot. The two are vastly different and not comparable. Just an afterthought, you said it takes 1 more shot to kill a level 155, 1 more than what? A vectis p going from 1 shotting an enemy to 2 shotting is a far greater difference than a soma p taking 50 shots to 51. So what weapon exactly are you talking about that performs so much worse with your disposition rebalance?

[Guest]

I think buying/selling rivens is a risk business since riven dispositions are not supposed to be immutable forever. Unfortunately, players got used to DE's inertia on updating riven dispositions. And I partially blame DE for that, but I still think it is a risk of the own player's choice. Now, they said they are going to update dispositions with every prime access, so we can somewhat predict what is going to be nerfed or buffed every 3~4 months. I think that with these periodic disposition changes, it will be good for the makert and for balance purposes.

Howewer, I agree with you on the 100% SC subject and I believe/hope DE is aware of that. It doesn't make sense that a riven with, for example, + Status Chance and +Zoom is better than a roll with +Crit Chance, +Crit Dmg and +Multishot, just because you need to reach that 100% status chance on some weapons. I think they should add new SC mods so that we can reach 100% status chance without having to resort to rivens or creat undesirable elemental combinations like blast.