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Acersecomic

Feedback on Wolf of Saturn Six

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5 minutes ago, Mrevasivepants said:

I give up, i completely give up with your pointless, and unaffordable argument.

It is obvious to me that at this point you're just poking at everyone's nerves just so you can get a giggle out of it.

You show no respect to those who are playing the game for fun. You keep going at the majority of other people's problem and indirectly call them "losers"(for lack of a better term) by making, what at this point it looks like you're doing, fun of those that go on with a loadout and the wolf shows up to ruin their day because, again, 6% is not a justifiable number to have a loadout against him.

We've had our backs and fronts at each other and through this debate I've reconsidered the option of lowering his tankyness to just put him in a specific place where people can just encounter him there and nowhere else so that their game isn't ruined. Yet you show absolutely no respect to anyone else's claims and opinions except of your own.

From now on I'll just completely ignored whatever you have to say, your opinion is still of course valid, but your insipid attitude towards everyone else who shows a clear disdain towards this bad approach of game design makes it hard for anyone having to agree with you.

This is an argument that its suppose to be taken seriously for the sake of future gameplay, and you're just here to throw salt at people's wounds, I pray that I never, ever have to read an illegit and straight up ridiculous comment from you ever again.

Good day.

Whatever you say buddy. Because I have made suggestions for increasing his spawn rate and how to deal with him when he does spawn. I favour a beacon system where it drops from the fugitives, because that way people can spawn him where and when they please that would possibly make the fight scalable for the newbs so nobody can go on to whine about him being too high or low a level for them. 

If your definition of "fun" is going into a fight unprepared and then whining about it, or making repeatedly false claims about the spawn rate, the way the fight works or how difficult it is to prepare even a single weapon for the fight, then nobody is going to be able to help you whatsoever. 

The minute you asked me if I was serious in telling someone that the wolf's spawns are based on RNG at a fixed rate and you started acting like that's not the case, I realised that you'd run out of even false arguments to counter what was said. The fact that it followed trying to claim that I said that the wolf spawns more on Hydron than anywhere else, despite a very clear indication of why I was on Hydron, tells me that you weren't interested in anything anyone else had said anyway. 

Good luck in your game, Tenno. 

 

 

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20 hours ago, HawtFyst said:

Like, they got the Stalker mostly right.   Why not the Wolf?

Not really.  Shadow Stalker is too weak to be any fun, he gets 1-shot every appearance.

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One side of me is like: GGB
The other side of me is like... this much work for a weapon that isnt viable  and mods I can get from low level mission? Im out

I have an Arca Plasmor with over 29k radiation and it takes 1/2 hour to kill him at higher levels. Had stalker and the Acolytes been this bad, I would have quit.

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He should work similar to Acolytes, imo.

 

Maybe not copy and paste though, because that would warrant question of what makes him different.

 

Perhaps a warning of *there was Wolf signature found on planet X or Section X or Mission types X but we couldn't pinpoint his current location* and people who want to hunt him go to that planet while people who wouldn't try that planet for meanwhile? Keeps uncertainty but let people who would avoid him, go do something else.

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2 hours ago, Methanoid said:

(even seemingly with armor stripped)

That's because he has natural damage resistance not bound to his armor pool, removing it doesn't make his DR zero like some would have you believe.

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Not really.  Shadow Stalker is too weak to be any fun, he gets 1-shot every appearance.

The Wolf is the opposite extreme, and also not a good design either.

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9 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The minute you asked me if I was serious in telling someone that the wolf's spawns are based on RNG at a fixed rate and you started acting like that's not the case, I realised that you'd run out of even false arguments to counter what was said. The fact that it followed trying to claim that I said that the wolf spawns more on Hydron than anywhere else, despite a very clear indication of why I was on Hydron, tells me that you weren't interested in anything anyone else had said anyway. 

most of our arguments aren't false you just baffled us by full heatedly believing that wolf has a rely able fixed spawn rate when this whole thread is about how inconsistent wolfs spawn rates is. where people have been reporting about how wolf either never shows up for some or outright shows up constantly for others to the point people a frustrated over it.

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1 minute ago, Aldain said:

The Wolf is the opposite extreme, and also not a good design either.

Personally, if they made him take status effects then I'd find the fight great.  All my gear can kill him pretty quickly- unless it's built for status.  That's my one gripe.

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Just now, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Personally, if they made him take status effects then I'd find the fight great.  All my gear can kill him pretty quickly- unless it's built for status.  That's my one gripe.

Honestly if he could suffer Viral Procs I'd agree, as is he's just a pile of numbers that need bigger numbers to kill.

But the issue with that is you'll then have people complain he's dying too quick to slash/viral and that he's now ruined, there's literally no winning with this thing.

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5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

But the issue with that is you'll then have people complain he's dying too quick to slash/viral and that he's now ruined, there's literally no winning with this thing.

My fastest kill (with no help) against level 70 Wolf is 1 min 20 sec.

If you cut that in half with viral and stacked some slash, given ramp-up time, that's a little over half a minute and about 15 to 20 seconds with an optimized squad.

For a field boss fight?  I'd say that's fine.  No need to go faster or slower.

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Just now, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

My fastest kill (with no help) against level 70 Wolf is 1 min 20 sec.

What the hell are you using? Because when I have no help even with a Rubico Prime it always takes 20 or so minutes.

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1 minute ago, Aldain said:

What the hell are you using? Because when I have no help even with a Rubico Prime it always takes 20 or so minutes.

Umbral Valkyr (no umbral forma), radiation-modded claws with Sacrificial Steel and a Gladiator mod for consistent crits.  War Cry + Hysteria spin attack, which has a ton of multihits.

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Just now, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Umbral Valkyr (no umbral forma), radiation-modded claws with Sacrificial Steel and a Gladiator mod for consistent crits.  War Cry + Hysteria spin attack, which has a ton of multihits.

Well I guess that makes sense, considering that Valkyr would be a hard counter since she doesn't need to worry about his melee hits due to invuln.

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7 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

a dozen upon dozens. its my favorite running ground of jump in a solo instance with my umbra forma'ed chroma with tatsu, and what ever flavor of fire arms i am running at the moment in order to loose some steam and turn my brain off.  there are points where juggernaut has a better track record then wolf or stalker. cause even if i extracted at 5 mins and go into another run they dont show up... ever! 

You know that the odds of him spawning get bumped right off the roster when other special enemies show up, right? And yes exiting at 5 mins and retrying doesn't change the low spawn rate, but it does seem to give you more chances for him to spawn. What I am seeing there is the "even if" which suggests that it's not what you were doing at all. So... 

 

7 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

so tell me how can you fight wolf when your ready when he never shows up when your ready and only shows up when your unready? thats the basic fricking story with me and wolf the whole entirety of these 2 weeks. i wait for those 5 mins and he never shows up yet when i level a dang frame and not have most of my good stuff he shows up. on point i might add.

Since I make sure that I'm always carrying one weapon that can deal with hin, I am always ready, he always shows up when I am ready. That's why I have said repeatedly that choosing to be totally unprepared is a bad thing. And I've told you very clearly, that you can easily level up your frames safely, with absolutely no risk of him showing up, by going to the sanctuary. 

But you chose to go to a place where he can spawn, unprepared, and he showed up in accordance with his spawn rate. 

4 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

most of our arguments aren't false you just baffled us by full heatedly believing that wolf has a rely able fixed spawn rate when this whole thread is about how inconsistent wolfs spawn rates is. where people have been reporting about how wolf either never shows up for some or outright shows up constantly for others to the point people a frustrated over it.

He does have a reliable and fixed spawn rate. Three really, one at 6% for level 20+ missions, one at 4% for lower level missions, and one of 0% for special areas. The nature of our RNG means that doing any given run has a maximum of 6% chance for him to spawn at specific times in each mission. The law of large numbers means that what you're describing as proof of it not being random, is actually proof of randomness. 

You quoted someone else explaining how cognitive bias works against you, try to understand what they said. 

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Met him on Hydron today, using a half baked Umbral Nezha (all 3 Umbral, level 18, Adaptation) and a Radiation Destreza Prime by spamming the multihit Combo. Soloed him with the squad doing jack. No armor strip other than Corrosive Projection.

Cleared him out in about a minute with obscene red crits and constantly refreshing Nezha's 3

Even when the Saryn cleared every wave, I ended up with 72% of the damage 😂 that guy has 2x more HP than 5 WHOLE waves of Hydron (I couldn't kill anything since the Saryn was map nuking after the Rhino beefed her up and the Nova made everything take double over huge radius) WTF XD

 

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Just now, Aldain said:

Well I guess that makes sense, considering that Valkyr would be a hard counter since she doesn't need to worry about his melee hits due to invuln.

She can tank them if she ends up in regular melee, without maxed umbral fiber she still gets 1.8k armor + Warcry.  Mainly use her for the single target DPS, the Wolf seems to be the only enemy in the game whose entire body you can damage who doesn't instantly evaporate with this particular build.

By the way, since that's a bit of an investment:  Chroma with cleaving whirlwind heavy blade crit build also chews him up pretty good.

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25 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You know that the odds of him spawning get bumped right off the roster when other special enemies show up, right? And yes exiting at 5 mins and retrying doesn't change the low spawn rate, but it does seem to give you more chances for him to spawn. What I am seeing there is the "even if" which suggests that it's not what you were doing at all. So... 

 

Since I make sure that I'm always carrying one weapon that can deal with hin, I am always ready, he always shows up when I am ready. That's why I have said repeatedly that choosing to be totally unprepared is a bad thing. And I've told you very clearly, that you can easily level up your frames safely, with absolutely no risk of him showing up, by going to the sanctuary. 

But you chose to go to a place where he can spawn, unprepared, and he showed up in accordance with his spawn rate. 

He does have a reliable and fixed spawn rate. Three really, one at 6% for level 20+ missions, one at 4% for lower level missions, and one of 0% for special areas. The nature of our RNG means that doing any given run has a maximum of 6% chance for him to spawn at specific times in each mission. The law of large numbers means that what you're describing as proof of it not being random, is actually proof of randomness. 

You quoted someone else explaining how cognitive bias works against you, try to understand what they said. 

i see no point and arguing about this with you since you keep on trying to hide behind numbers to make it off like "every thing is working as intended." while ignoring everyone that is venting their frustration. only dropping advice or hints on it rather then think "yeah maybe that does need a little bit more tweaking"  cause even though DE said wolf is so pose to be a challenge for vets yet it spawns and pester new players and people would can't bother going full try hard and be ready with a locked companion and locked weapon slot with the rest being option able. or advising about arcanes when other people can't be bothered with messing around with eidolons or haven't been able to reach the higher syndicate tiers for the open worlds due real life monitoring some if not most peoples play sessions or people that tend to hate messing with trade chat because its a headache to deal with and runs patience thin.

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42 minutes ago, Aldain said:

That's because he has natural damage resistance not bound to his armor pool, removing it doesn't make his DR zero like some would have you believe.

Yeah, his "health" is just, mechanically, another layer of Alloy Armor if I remember rightly. One you can't strip. 

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10 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Yeah, his "health" is just, mechanically, another layer of Alloy Armor if I remember rightly. One you can't strip. 

It actually is supposed to just be health that has alloy armor resistances, but I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

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Just now, Aldain said:

It actually is supposed to just be health that has alloy armor resistances, but I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

Ah, I might have been mistaken when I read someone talking about it.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Well, I was responding to you, who started by reducing everything to this point. But ok?

The rest is in the previous post, but ok.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Zero explanation. Good.

The explanation is in the previous post, but ok.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Except it's not "some people complaining about wolf" but posts in the forum every single day asking for him to be adressed?

Only a tiny fraction of forum posters complain about him, and the forum community is itself only a tiny fraction of the whole player base (and not a representative sample either), but ok.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Which comes again to the same point: difficulty is not having to worry about anything at all, just shooting harder.

In your mind, yes, that seems to be the case. But ok.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

this game is suffering always more about the powercreep issue

Power creep is not a problem, it's a necessary and beneficial element of online games. Would anyone be excited for updates if every new frame and gun was guaranteed to be worse than what we already have? But ok.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

they are making always more useless the few CC that were still useful

Yes, which is why Nova's 4 and Temporal Blast are completely useless against, say, Thumpers. Or for separating the Wolf from his fugitives. But ok.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

It's like saying that this game should have a building system ala minecraft.

I mean, have you seen some of the things people have been making with dojo decorations and such? And Steve himself said recently that Railjack is pulling elements from games like Elite Dangerous, so this kind of genre mixing is actually exactly what DE is going for. But ok.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

that kind of difficulty won't work because of how the game itself is

Oh I see, that clears everything up. But ok.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

That's why you need to offer difficulty in a different way than the usual "increase hp and damage".

Then why are you proposing exactly that? Because every single thing you said basically boils down to a buff in HP or damage. But ok.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Because sooner or later, one will arrive to the point where that only means taking more time to kill him, but doesn't add any kind of challenge. 

That would be exactly why I said he doesn't need stat buffs, he needs tweaks to animations and attack patterns.

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Getting hit by Lephantis basically requires standing still as well, so yeah, its a Lephantis issue, the whole fight is just casually moving to avoid knockdowns and shooting pink damage zones.

That's exactly what makes it a good fight, or at least better than the rest of WF boss fights, where you can just stand still and wait for the boss to come out of its invincibility with any frame. WIth Lephantis you at least need to move a bit with most frames. Could it be better? Yes, certainly. It could also be way worse, though, as exemplified by a dozen other bosses.

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Every single boss in Warframe suffers from the same issue, they are either complete jokes (Sargent, Vor, Phorid) damage gated bullet sponges (Lephantis, Kela De Thaym Lech Kril) or awkwardly designed bosses that rely on hitting specific tiny points in available timeframes to deal damage (Vay Hek, Sargas Ruk, Razorback). 

Bosses aren't Warframe's strong suit, the Wolf is just another notch in the Warframe doorframe for mediocre, badly designed boss fights.

The reason bosses need to be designed that way is because there's such a disparity between frames in terms of eHP and damage output. When DE make a tough boss, people cry that it's a bullet sponge. When they make it weak, people cry that it's a one-shot and boring. When they make sure you can't one-shot it, people cry that invincibility phases and damage gating are BS. Well what else are they supposed to do? Those are literally all the options there are. If some frames were not an order of magnitude more powerful than others, it would be possible to design bosses that are challenging and satisfying to fight for everybody. As it stands, that simply can't be done.

Also, as a side note, Razorback has nothing to do with hitting small weak points.

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1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

That's exactly what makes it a good fight, or at least better than the rest of WF boss fights

Not a high bar you're setting there.

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

When they make it weak, people cry that it's a one-shot and boring.

People at endgame level are already causing the Wolf to die in seconds, the only difference is he dies in seconds if you're running endgame level 400 Bombard oneshot gear and in 20 or so minutes otherwise, AS AN INVADING BOSS.

People wouldn't care if the Wolf were tanky if it weren't for the fact that he shows up in any mission that isn't an assassinate mission, because people could be prepared 100% of the time for that particular mission rather than needing to have a pocket nuke for a Wall who shows up randomly.

Invading bosses shouldn't require this degree of preparation because it makes all other preparation useless against it, people don't care about Lephantis or Sargas Ruk because they can avoid him, if the Wolf shows up he takes over the mission unless you kill him or he downs the entire party at once.

He's terrible design for a boss, and even worse design for an INVADING boss.

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I just run with a rad-crit Corvas ready to go. Whenever he shows up I bring it out and fill him full of holes. Takes a little time, but a chance at the parts is a chance at the parts

Probably will still keep killing him after I inevitably buy it when it goes down to a reasonable price, now we know it's not a time-limited thing

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31 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

i see no point and arguing about this with you since you keep on trying to hide behind numbers to make it off like "every thing is working as intended." while ignoring everyone that is venting their frustration. only dropping advice or hints on it rather then think "yeah maybe that does need a little bit more tweaking"  cause even though DE said wolf is so pose to be a challenge for vets yet it spawns and pester new players and people would can't bother going full try hard and be ready with a locked companion and locked weapon slot with the rest being option able. or advising about arcanes when other people can't be bothered with messing around with eidolons or haven't been able to reach the higher syndicate tiers for the open worlds due real life monitoring some if not most peoples play sessions or people that tend to hate messing with trade chat because its a headache to deal with and runs patience thin.

You're on page 16. Even on this page is a suggestion from me for how we can tweak it to make his arrivals more reliable. It's something that I have spoken about repeatedly. 

But you go ahead and say that I'm hiding behind numbers, when 'numbers' are exactly how RNG works. It's actually the 'N' in RNG. But some people don't understand how probability works and would rather blame a strawman that they create to excuse their failures, than own up to not understanding how the system works:

The wolf only shows up if you aren't ready.The wolf never shows up if you are ready, despite the fact that many people are ready when they meet him. 

The wolf can't be killed so everyone should just abort, despite the fact that many people kill him. 

You can only deal damage if you are wearing the meta and have this one combination of gear that most people don't have, despite the fact that we have lots of options for killing him. 

Just because you are able to kill him with your rivens and primed mods, doesn't mean everyone can, despite the fact that you can show up without rivens or primed mods and kill him. 

Dealing even close to 50% of the damage you're doing is impossible for the majority of people because we demand to only take bad gear and still be able to kill him quickly, despite the fact that nothing works like that. 

It's not acceptable that he spawns according to RNG unless I decide that it seems random enough, in fact th the Stalker is also cheating, despite the fact that RNG is supposed to be random

You don't have valid arguments against the things we've said, because we're on a thread about his spawn rate and you don't support whatever we're saying and don't make any suggestions for improvements, despite the fact that there's one just above something I quoted in a previous post on this page. 

 

So.... Which one of those do you feel works today? Because they're all still demonstrably wrong. 

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1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

The rest is in the previous post, but ok.

Sure man, whatever.

 

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

The explanation is in the previous post, but ok.

Sure man, whatever.

 

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

Power creep is not a problem, it's a necessary and beneficial element of online games. Would anyone be excited for updates if every new frame and gun was guaranteed to be worse than what we already have? But ok.

So, again, confirming that difficulty for you menas bigger numbers, hence we need frames that just hit harder. Sure man, whatever.

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes, which is why Nova's 4 and Temporal Blast are completely useless against, say, Thumpers. Or for separating the Wolf from his fugitives. But ok.

Yeah, you can use most of the abilities against every enemy of Orb Vallis, they are absolutely useful there. Not to talk about the wolf itself. Sure man, whatever.

4 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I mean, have you seen some of the things people have been making with dojo decorations and such? But ok.

Yes, because the dojo decoration is a core part of the warframe gameplay. I mean, everybody goes to do their farming building platforms to reach higher places, and most of us build structures to protect from the profit taker attacks. Sure man, whatever.

6 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Oh I see, that clears everything up. But ok.

Well, yes. Of course it clears everything. Again, you can't expect this game to be a dark souls like because, surprise, it's not designed to be a dark souls like in its combat style and fast pace. Are you sure you understand this basic concept of being two different games? What's the next thing you're going to suggest? A boss fight in which you must score the highest number of goals? Sure man, whatever.

7 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Then why are you proposing exactly that? Because every single thing you said basically boils down to a buff in HP or damage. But ok.

Oooooh... so everything boils down to a buff in Hp or damage... Yeah, I guess you can simplify by saying so. I also guess that making the boss be a "DS like boss with strong telegraphed attacks" is, by no means, a damage buff. It's just... something else, right? Sure man, whatever.

9 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That would be exactly why I said he doesn't need stat buffs, he needs tweaks to animations and attack patterns.

Attack patterns that anyone with a strong enough frame (due to the powercreep) will just ignore as they do now because they are strong enough to just withstand their damage.

10 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That's exactly what makes it a good fight, or at least better than the rest of WF boss fights, where you can just stand still and wait for the boss to come out of its invincibility with any frame. WIth Lephantis you at least need to move a bit with most frames. Could it be better? Yes, certainly. It could also be way worse, though, as exemplified by a dozen other bosses.

The only reason why you can't stand still while shooting Lephantis is because he can knock you down due to how big he is. And, by the way, having damage caps (as he has) and invulnerability periods (as he has) is just another "artificial way of increasing his hp" because you are just making him invulnerable during certain moments. If instead of that, he had higher HP, there would be no difference.

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