Feedback on Wolf of Saturn Six

[Renegade343]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WolfpackBoss

Well, the three guys are relatively threatening. Still could run around in circles and end up being a stalemate, because frankly, the guys aren't that relentless. Now, if they spew their molotovs like vomit after a drunk night out, then yeah, maybe it could be considered dangerous.

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Renegade343 said:

Well, the three guys are relatively threatening. Still could run around in circles and end up being a stalemate, because frankly, the guys aren't that relentless. Now, if they spew their molotovs like vomit after a drunk night out, then yeah, maybe it could be considered dangerous.

I mean, yeah, that's kinda the point. You're supposed to separate the Wolf from his pack.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

3 hours ago, Blatantfool said:

"It's simple! You've just gotta toss gameplay variety out the window! Do this specific, possibly unfun thing! I like it so you should too!"

 You've gotta watch it, Knosses, because when you try to be flippant and tell people stuff like "You were just playing wrong!" you immediately come off closer to these italics than you probably intend to. It's the rough part about feedback about the Wolf. He just doesn't mesh well when you move between the different kinds of players who enjoy the game. The clashing of styles and preferences make communication hard.

 The reason there are so many split hairs about the Wolf is because much of the defense of how he works ignores that some players can't stand playing close to the meta while on the flipside most of the people who can't stand having to carry some meta frag-cannon strat around like a security blanket don't want to hear crap like "Play to the Meta."

 Wolf is a pretty dumb boss. The split in the community discussion is born from how dumb he is. He can only be a positive light for a specific subset of players and he can be downright detrimental to the fun of others. 

thank you. i feel like this sums up what i have been saying for a few days now..

[zoffmode]

So today I finally finished getting a riven I wanted for my status Zaw. 54 rolls. Took quite a while to farm up and I wanted to take it out for a spin. It's a pretty strong weapon, so I'll just go in with it to complete a simple Kuva Flood. Shouldn't be a problem.

Guess who spawns? Lvl 75 wolf in duo with a friend.

Fun times. Back to crit radiation melee weapon until this crap event ends. So much for trying to have fun in a video game.

Edited April 26, 2019 by zoffmode

[SnU4uCghkY]

3 hours ago, Blatantfool said:

"It's simple! You've just gotta toss gameplay variety out the window! Do this specific, possibly unfun thing! I like it so you should too!"

 You've gotta watch it, Knosses, because when you try to be flippant and tell people stuff like "You were just playing wrong!" you immediately come off closer to these italics than you probably intend to. It's the rough part about feedback about the Wolf. He just doesn't mesh well when you move between the different kinds of players who enjoy the game. The clashing of styles and preferences make communication hard.

 The reason there are so many split hairs about the Wolf is because much of the defense of how he works ignores that some players can't stand playing close to the meta while on the flipside most of the people who can't stand having to carry some meta frag-cannon strat around like a security blanket don't want to hear crap like "Play to the Meta."

 Wolf is a pretty dumb boss. The split in the community discussion is born from how dumb he is. He can only be a positive light for a specific subset of players and he can be downright detrimental to the fun of others. 

Exactly that, it is not that he is incredibly difficult - it is just that being constanly prepared for wolf makes everything else DULL/BORING AS F*K.
Which by the way make him not spawning in boss missions hypocritical - every mission he spawn in is a boss mission...

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

you know i think that the wolf should be pretty weak but his current toughness is where all normal assassination bosses should be roughly.

 

Imagine if Phroid was as tough as the wolf currently is... being honest my Valkyr can one shot that boss even with it leveled to 100 in sorties..

 

but yeah, the randomly spawning bullet sponge of i hope you brought Ammo Pads needs to be fixed properly.. abilities and status effects need to affect him. there is legit not reason for something that strong in a normal mission, its only acceptable in assassination missions.

 

DE is losing players over this.. people are tired of the wolf ruining normal gameplay for them.

yes you can always bring a "anti wolf weapon" or other, but FFS not everyone wants to, its freaking boring to be limited to a few weapons just to deal with a 6% chance of boring bullet sponge that turns 5minutes for the first 5 waves of hydron into 25-30minutes if your unlucky.

Edited April 26, 2019 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[(PSN)Ch1b1N1njaGam1ng]

4 hours ago, BROMOU said:

当你在单人游戏时，遇见土星六号，你通常无法击败他，此角色需要被削弱，以保障玩家的正常游戏体验

Didn't you chinese players get Excalibur Umbra Prime as a founder exclusive? Just use that. (¬w¬)

[zoffmode]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Ch1b1N1njaGam1ng said:

Didn't you chinese players get Excalibur Umbra Prime as a founder exclusive? Just use that. (¬w¬)

Oh yes just always use umbra now nothing else allowed.

[ManiacRS]

Hey guys, NOOB here.

I use Valkyr with rad and shattering impart in her 4 for the Wolf. Works OK.

 

But just wanted to ask. Does Smite from Oberon not work at all on him? I think I tried it and it wouldn't work.

[SordidDreams]

51 minutes ago, ManiacRS said:

Does Smite from Oberon not work at all on him? I think I tried it and it wouldn't work.

Nope. He's immune to all most abilities other than exalted weapons.

Edited April 26, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Mr.SpookSpook]

You need to git gud

[denis-ldv]

18 минут назад, SordidDreams сказал:

Nope. He's immune to all abilities other than exalted weapons.

Nope. Nova's AMD (fully charged) deals 20K-50K damage to him depending on his armor state and level

Edited April 26, 2019 by denis-ldv

[LSG501]

2 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Nah, he's been nerfed enough as it is. He's very easy if you're properly prepared for him. And if you're not, that's kinda your own fault; he's supposed to be tough and dangerous. 

The thing is he's only easy IF you're running specific gear to take down the wolf. 

Compared with the other assassins, why should he be harder than the shadow stalker, there's nothing mentioned in the lore to say why he's so 'strong' compared with an assassin that technically is essentially using an 'sentient enhanced' warframe against us.

I've been levelling and for some reason I got to see wolfie several times yesterday (makes a nice change seeing as I still need the bp) and luckily enough I've been running titania just in case but if you're not running a 'meta' setup specifically for the wolf it takes an excessively long time to take him down, especially if he's spawning at level 70 (I thought he was capped to below that....), it's not because he's actually hard, as said elsewhere the wolf pack and their napalm is far more dangerous, it's just he's got so much health and armor to draw out the fight. 

Being required to run a specific meta build every mission in case the wolf turns up is really poorly thought out design in all honesty when no other assassin actually requires this.

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

I like the wolf, how he telegraphs his moves and stuff, when I go down to him it doesn't feel cheap, it feels like I should get better.

The problem is his invincible mooks, those guys feel cheap.

Also, not being able to cast our abilities on the Wolf feels cheap.  I tried to cast smite on him but no dice. That's dumb and cheap.

His tankiness is...eh...

If I have a just in case weapon to deal with him (Kitgun, Tombfinger/LoveTap/Splat) his tankiness feels a bit too much.

If I come loaded for bear wolf (Khora, Venari with Sharpened Claws, Exergis) his tankiness is Just right to kind meh.

If I don't have a high crit Rad weapon on me?  Nah man, nah.  He's too tanky, he and his minions are annoying, it takes what feels like half an hour, and he drops molten impact.

Possible impossible solution: make him scale off our weapons

Possible Solution: Nerf the wolf/his minions.  Make it so he has an increased chance of spawn if everyone in the squad does a wolf howl emote, and if they do so he spawns tankier than usual.

[Urlan]

19 minutes ago, ManiacRS said:

Hey guys, NOOB here.

I use Valkyr with rad and shattering impart in her 4 for the Wolf. Works OK.

 

But just wanted to ask. Does Smite from Oberon not work at all on him? I think I tried it and it wouldn't work.

Yeah true enough not many abilities can affect the Wolf, while Shattering Impact; Sundering Dash; and Sharpened Claws on Kavat can reduce his armor. Sadly, nothing an Oberon does works on him outside of Iron Renewal for trying to keep his allies alive. Going invulnerable is usually a pretty good method of lasting through his damage - around 700 plus damage to players getting 78 regeneration and 340 armor from Iron Renewal. Just make sure you either finish him before losing your invulnerability or run away from him right before it ends or the built up damage will hit hard when your foes still stand within your safe distance.

[ManiacRS]

18 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Nope. He's immune to all abilities other than exalted weapons.

That feels wrong, IMO. Also I don't like how his 3 stug... eh... minions are invincible until you kill him. We should be able to clear them first.

[SordidDreams]

41 minutes ago, denis-ldv said:

Nope. Nova's AMD (fully charged) deals 20K-50K damage to him depending on his armor state and level

Oh yeah, you're right. Hotfix in 3, 2, 1...

41 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

he's only easy IF you're running specific gear to take down the wolf

Well yeah. That's true of any and all challenging content in WF, though. Everything can be trivialized by just picking the correct equipment, and quite a few things are extremely hard if you don't. WF is very much a stat-based game where success is mostly determined by bringing the correct and sufficiently leveled gear. If you don't like that, you're playing the wrong game.

41 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Being required to run a specific meta build every mission in case the wolf turns up is really poorly thought out design

I would agree if that were actually the case, but it isn't. All you really need is one decent weapon. I don't think that's too much to ask. A lot of the complaints I'm seeing are along the lines of "I had three level 0 weapons and I couldn't kill him in Hydron". Like, yeah, duh. Also, what are you doing leveling guns in Hydron, why aren't you in ESO.

Edited April 26, 2019 by SordidDreams

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Oh yeah, you're right. Hotfix in 3, 2, 1...

Well yeah. That's true of any and all challenging content in WF, though. Everything can be trivialized by just picking the correct equipment, and quite a few things are extremely hard if you don't. WF is very much a stat-based game where success is mostly determined by bringing the correct and sufficiently leveled gear. If you don't like that, you're playing the wrong game. 

I would agree if that were actually the case, but it isn't. All you really need is one decent weapon. I don't think that's too much to ask. A lot of the complaints I'm seeing are along the lines of "I had three level 0 weapons and I couldn't kill him in Hydron". Like, yeah, duh. Also, what are you doing leveling guns in Hydron, why aren't you in ESO.

You don't need specific setups to fight the stalker, g3 or zanuka.  The stalker is trivialised by operators so for those of us at that point in the game can be taking rank 0 weapons and kill them without issues.  Zanuka is basically dead before it turns up and g3 isn't exactly hard.  Wolf on the other hand is completely out of balance with the others and as I said doesn't make any sense at the moment why he is stronger than the shadow stalker. 

Also it's not just about your rank of weapon, it's about how it's built, I'm sure you know that a rank 0 weapon on an mr25 is considerably different to a rank 0 on an mr5 player... Different enemies/factions work best with different elemental damage types but the thing is very few enemies benefit from the use of radiation so in essence we don't build for that, wolfie requires crit and radiation for the most effect. 

Also when levelling (assuming you can) you can take an archgun (with crit/radiation) but even that isn't exactly hugely effective in my experience, which is kind of comical considering it's supposed to take down a big ass orb mother....  wolfie could have been another reason to bother with getting gravimags.

Either way the point still remains that if you want to beat the wolf in an effective and timely manner you do need a setup specifically aimed at killing him, no other assassin requires that.   We can take down the others with rank 0 weaponry without any real issue and while I'm not saying make the wolf 'easier', I do think it needs to remove the necessity of a 'meta build' to kill it in a reasonable amount of time.... you can't honestly think 20-30mins (longer in some cases from what I've seen) to kill him is acceptable for what he drops.

Also I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not but wolfie (and others) spawn more frequently when you're running lower level items (conclave score or something iirc) so saying don't take low level gear is kind of counter productive if you're actually wanting to fight the wolf...

[DatDarkOne]

4 hours ago, Renegade343 said:

Tough? Yeah, if we mean more effective health = tougher.

Dangerous? Considering that he's rather easy to kite around and lead, not really, no. The three guys accompanying him pose more of a threat than him.

 

4 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I mean, yeah, that's kinda the point. You're supposed to separate the Wolf from his pack.

Garuda and her 2 (Blood Altar) makes separating the pack from him quite easy.  While giving healing to boot.  While it doesn't kill them while Wolf is still alive, it does effectively take them out of the fight for awhile. 

[SastusBulbas]

6 hours ago, Roobarb said:

How?! He showed up four times yesterday for me. And appeared to target me over the other players every time. I'm beginning to think there's something personal about it. 😣

I have no idea why he has never appeared, I have been on almost every night trying to squeeze Nightwave missions in, now at level 27, farming relics, and forma'd a Mk1 braton 7 times and leveled two frames to 30. One if them Forma'd twice.

 

But never seen the Wolf in any matches. Mostly pub games too, a handful of solo, inc Ceres seimeni to wave 10 and 15.

[SordidDreams]

11 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

You don't need specific setups to fight the stalker, g3 or zanuka. 

I think that might just be exactly the problem DE tried to address by introducing this new assassin. The old ones aren't dangerous enough to be interesting anymore.

11 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

when levelling (assuming you can) you can take an archgun (with crit/radiation) but even that isn't exactly hugely effective in my experience, which is kind of comical considering it's supposed to take down a big ass orb mother....  wolfie could have been another reason to bother with getting gravimags

That I do agree with. It seems pretty obvious to me that bosses and minibosses should be more vulnerable to heavy guns (or, more accurately, their additional non-armor-based damage reduction should not apply to heavy guns). I guess it didn't occur to DE.

11 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

the point still remains that if you want to beat the wolf in an effective and timely manner you do need a setup specifically aimed at killing him

You don't really need a whole setup; like I said, one decent gun is enough. And that's exactly why I like him. You have to actually think ahead a little bit, he's not completely irrelevant. He's also an interesting indirect way of making the rest of the game more challenging, since now you might want to run a gun that's not optimal against other enemies.

11 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not but wolfie (and others) spawn more frequently when you're running lower level items

Yes, I'm aware a lot of people suffer from this particular case of confirmation bias. I don't buy it for a second.

Edited April 26, 2019 by SordidDreams

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

I think that might just be exactly the problem DE tried to address by introducing this new assassin. The old ones aren't dangerous enough to be interesting anymore.

That I do agree with. It seems pretty obvious to me that bosses and minibosses should be more vulnerable to heavy guns (or, more accurately, their additional non-armor-based damage reduction should not apply to heavy guns). I guess it didn't occur to DE.

You don't really need a whole setup; like I said, one decent gun is enough. And that's exactly why I like him. You have to actually think ahead a little bit, he's not completely irrelevant. He's also an interesting indirect way of making the rest of the game more challenging, since now you might want to run a gun that's not optimal against other enemies. 

Yes, I'm aware a lot of people suffer from this particular case of confirmation bias. I don't buy it for a second.

They could buff the old ones a little and adjust the wolf to be above g3 but imo below stalker, or at least make him take more damage from aps/archguns so it doesn't take 30ish minutes if you're not running a 'meta'.  My view is simple in that you shouldn't need to be running a 'meta' for a 'mini boss', you should be able to kill them with anything weapon that you've optimised for the mission type etc.

Taking more than one weapon when levelling is highly inefficient, which I'm sure you know, so saying take another actually means making things take longer, which is not ideal (I've been using titania while I've been levelling)

That necessity to use specific gear against the wolf also leading to people just quitting if the wolf turns up because they know it's going to take too long, which then in turn can cause issues for others in the squad etc.

Confirmation bias... yes and no, while it might be confirmation bias in some people's eyes, my own experiences (and others) do seem to correlate with the idea that they come more often when you're with lower level gear.  Just yesterday I was levelling with just a catchmoon pistol and an amp (had a booster so making use of it) and wolfie spawned 3/4 times for me, a stalker and suda all spawned in about 8 missions...  yes wolfies spawn has supposedly been buffed but prior to that when I was running full level gear I hadn't seen him in 2-3 weeks, actually iirc I hadn't seen syndicates or stalker in that time either.... no point comparing with zanuka and g3 as they're quite rare to appear in my experience.

Edited April 26, 2019 by LSG501

[Valiant]

Equipping Paracesis fully geared for Radiation as a backup allowed me to deal with him much better whenever he decided to appear.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 hours ago, denis-ldv said:

Nope. Nova's AMD (fully charged) deals 20K-50K damage to him depending on his armor state and level

Can you prime him? I was speed running on a speedva build one time when Wolf showed up. He died in 2 bullets with the 1st one taking 75% of his health off without stripping his armour first, something I've never repeated. I'm now wondering if I molecular primed him.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Zilchy

[MaxCrazybread]

It's not a challenge if we aren't anticipating it though, like if I was abruptly awoken from my sleep and challenged to fight a toddler, I would probably fall over and lose just because I'm tired and don't want to deal with it, not because fighting a toddler is difficult. 

Fighting the wolf is not challenging in a sense that it requres skill, it just requires you to anticipate the fight every mission(4~6% chance to creep up on you), as well as prepare some dps cheese for it. But we shouldn't be expected to bring a certain build everywhere we go right? And if they decide to add more assassins like these, are we expected to bring a certain build for each and every one of these bullet sponges? 

There is a fine line for the difficulty of bosses, and all the wolf has proven is that DE has not nailed it yet. With further tweaks I'm sure it will improve, but as of right now it's just a pain in the ass that is not rewarding at all.