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[DE]Connor

April 2019 Riven Disposition Updates

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Just now, FollowTheFaceless said:

It would be VERY, VERY interesting to see the percentage of weapons usage after each of this riven nerfs...

Considering most people don't even use rivens or best rolled rivens… probably no changes at all. I fully expect everything that got hit, to get hit again, as they did with the last disposition change.

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Lmao butchering weapons that were fun to use and giving 0.5% increase to weapons that have 1/5 dispo. I'm not even one of those people that spend 10k plat on rivens and I use a lot of non-meta weapons just for the fun of it, so my rivens got buffed, but dayum. My prayers go out to Arca and Rubico gang.

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1 minute ago, Liinkpro said:

Why would they NERF THE OK WEAPONS?Because they want all the weapons to be trash equally,and i'm probably older than you on this game,so gtfo

You're older than me but a hella lot dumber. Just enjoy your 2 dot amprex and rubico before it goes to 1 dot. If you want to be salty because you could not even understand what a disposition change mean DESPITE THEM SAYING IT MULTIPLE TIMES AND THESE WEAPONS ALREADY GETTING HIT, then idk what to say except they gonna nerf you outta the game.

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18 minutes ago, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

A lot of people in here do not understand the purpose of rivens, or simply just are selfish characters that just want the best of the best without caring about the possibility of future changes. Some of the more idiotic suggestions I read was an adjustment to base stats... to compensate for rivens that have a 0.001 and less chance of rolling, not even counting getting the thing. I cannot imagine the shear level of idiocy some people have to think that nerfing a weapon for 99% of people is a good idea because like a 100 people have perfect rivens. Do they not understand how disposition works? You buy into a riven knowing that a good riven is likely going to get nerfed, and trash ones buffed. Its a speculative market based on what people think, and prices can rise and crash overnight. All of it reeks of a standard stock market case scenario where one day you are rich, another your investments tank. Wise players buy non meta and wait for them to see their day if they have potential, and people who just want top of the line are happy because their stuff still the best, just less so. If this changes, they are buying the next best thing anyway.

And what about the earned rivens? I got so many good rivens from sortie, and what about them? I lost so many hours and kuva for rolling rivens for myself. Thats evil!

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The point of the riven system is obvious, give mid-tier weapons the chance to be high-tier weapons.  Let's analyze exactly why that is stupid, and needs to be rectified.  

1) You already have a tiered power unlock system.  It's called mastery rank.

2) You already have ascending power steps for a weapon type, it's called Vandal/Unique/Prime.  A good example is the four Braton flavors (MK-1, standard, vandal, and prime).

3) Rivens are random drops, with random rolls, for random stats, controlled by a limited inventory which you would have to purchase more slots to utilize for anything but a hand-full of weapons.  Do you see the layers of RNG required to get anything good, when you can feasibly get a sniper mod focusing on +zoom, +damage to an irrelevant type (slash on the Rubico), +elemental damage, and -damage?

4) Your current tier system already precludes viability for weapons.  After you get the MR something like the MK-1 Braton is never used again once the prime can be earned.

5) You have spent so long waffling on providing a viable in-game trading system that the riven market is already being exploited.  Put simply, these changes are not ever going to be welcomed when you have suddenly decided to make popular items less viable because you don't want to address the base reason for the issue in the first place (level scaling requires a selection of insanely powerful weapons if you play for any extended period of time).

 

So, how do we actually fix this.

1) Stop with the moving targets, and stop with aiming at what the community likes.  Instead of nerfing popular items, buff the less popular.  I'd be happy to see the rivens for something like the Miter make it as strong as the Opticor, instead of nerfing the Opticor so it matches the weaker Miter (all in theory, please don't take this as a suggestion).

2) This is a game.  Stop using the carrot and the stick.  Again, this boils down to a controlled power creep upward, rather than soft balancing things.  If the window for bonuses was tightened, but expanded, you could keep the same disposition and have greater room to play.  The current windows just don't offer enough at the very top end, to make something like the Kraken viable no matter the roll.  More importantly, when the Marelok exists why even bother with the Kraken?

3) Stop balancing based upon player usages or things not numerically explained.  I get nerfing the Pyrana and the Catchmoon.  The later has demonstrated insane power with a riven boost (read: penetration and damage makes it a street sweeping shotgun secondary), and the Catchmoon is a favorite because it can run from status to crit and not miss a beat with a good build.  The issue here is that instead of balancing the base kitguns you're bolting the riven changes in to do it.  This is pretty fishy, given that once you get a kitgun riven there's a 25% chance of getting what you want, just like getting 3 Dokhram rivens in a row is only possible because the Zaw pool is so small (I say, sitting on 5 Balla and 3 Dokhram rivens).

4) Stop the random on random garbage.  If rivens are meant to be a part of the game then have 2 slots for each weapon in the inventory.  This allows one riven to be played, with one to be unlocked and being rolled at any time.  Likewise, make the multipliers constant based upon the disposition.  You can still have random buffs, with a multiplier based upon the quantity and presence of a negative.  Less server draw (no random values linked to each account), more viability for every weapon, and enough room to trade when you get a riven for a weapon you don't like.

5) Introduce some intermediaries, and start handing out more unique modifiers.  Let's look at the Penta.  You've got a syndicate variant, mods that allow for sticky grenades, mods that allow it to tether enemies, mods that turn it into a napalm patch, and mods that increase its blast area.  Instead of that introduce 3 Pentas, where the visual distinction of a skin is all you need to offer.  That means you've only made one weapon, taking 3 different mechanics, and 3 skins.  You've effectively made a single weapon take 130% of the design time and produce 300% of the results.  For assault rifles incorporate incindiary (fire) and fragmentary (blast) variants that play with the stats a bit but keep the field a choice of preference and not power creep. 

6) Make the cost of these new items match the value.  The value of certain garbage items (Ogris) is poor.  I have to build a dojo, research, and spend more forma to get a weapon that kills me frighteningly often when most enemies just rush you (causing self damage).  Alternatively, I can get the Dread from the Stalker and curb stomp the star chart with a simple crit build.  The most recent example of this is the Galvachord, but the Plinx is just as guilty.  You release new content, requiring the new resources, rather than balancing it against use and power.  I'm waiting for the day when the next mediocre weapon requires 20,000 cryotic, 4 argon crystals, 100 auroxium, and the newest rare item.  Unfortunately, I can see it happening.

 

 

 

This seems to have gone on a tangent, but the point is that you're using rivens to balance fundamentally broken systems that you are not addressing.  No matter how good the rivens system quashes individuality on the back end, you're left with underwhelming inputs and unbalanced risk to reward propositions.  Maybe review the power to cost equations, and then come back with riven nerfs.

 

For full disclosure, I'm a veteran.  Literally more materials than I would ever need to complete content, sans the insane new grind required to make prime frames (looking at you Vauban Prime).  I loved my Pyrana Prime, and a critical built Catchmoon is my firearm of choice.  Likewise, the Arca Plasmor was great before the first nerf (let alone this one), and the sniper nerfs are pretty painful in a horde shooter where sniping is an invitation to being murdered by a conga line of enemies.  The above makes me salty, but instead of raging against the change I find it a symptom of the underlying poorly balanced inputs.  Maybe rather than staring at a spreadsheet until weapon usage distribution levels out, you can review what inputs are causing the glut of usage for specific weapons.

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6 minutes ago, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

Why would they nerf the ok weapons?

Outside of status shotguns, they don't beat everything good into the ground, just the most flagrant stuff.

No opticor nerf, surprise, surprise.

Phantasma got untouched, despite being very strong. 

Zarr was good, and got buffed. Zhuge was good, even stronger.

Attica can be insane, no touches done. 

Nothing to zenith

Penta got buff, even though it is NUTS with the new augment, and I could go on

Learn the game instead of listening to people telling you what to use.

 

Opticor already got a riven disposition nerf last round. Plus, it got another one called Opticor Vandal: -60% base damage.

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2 minutes ago, ConsumerJTC said:

Arca is too good to pass up apparently.

They could nerf the rivens to 0 and it will still get use. It is the best shotgun in the game for a budget build or for players that hit its MR. 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Void_Girl said:

Bows stopped being mainstream when stuff like nullifier shields began to be introduced. It actually has nothing to do with their damage potential.

If a bow can't one or two shot something its goddamn useless.

Man I love the salt in this thread, MOAR.

YOU OWE ME MONEY DE FOR THIS RIVEN NERF XD

MY GUNS ALL SHOOT PISS NOW XD

Time to buy some cheap ass rivens and brush the salt off them. Ooh baby.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

Considering most people don't even use rivens or best rolled rivens… probably no changes at all. I fully expect everything that got hit, to get hit again, as they did with the last disposition change.

Because trash is always trash, no matter how hard you trying to buff it - it still trash. DE is too thick skulled to understand it. (Yeah, I know I'll get hit for that, but it must be said).

Edited by FollowTheFaceless
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Just now, bnShadow13 said:

Opticor already got a riven disposition nerf last round. Plus, it got another one called Opticor Vandal: -60% base damage.

A nerf that raise the DPS by over 2x with its over twice as fast fire rate. increase crit chance and crit dmg, increase status chance by 50% and have a larger magazine with a increase reload speed? I know you are exaggerating but this meme should die now. It flat out better, it just doesn't do big boom damage anymore.

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what the hell is this? Lanka rubico AND vectis(for no reason) get hit AGAIN? what you do you want us to hunt eidolons with? the freaking tipedo?

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37 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Oh, so it's about what was intended, huh? Better delete Fetch.

This is great in theory, but in reality it's just going to result in the Plasmor and similar weapons with an inflated sense of worth and mediocre scaling getting Ember'd. While the riven system itself is flawed, the actual balancing of it as intended is also flawed and that would just be offset onto the weapons themselves. 😕

I'm not defending the changes, they have repercussions due to the money value of rivens. However what I don't understand is why everyone is flipping out like they never mentioned that rivens would be changed. it was said from the very start, and talked about constantly. Rivens were always meant to be changed and their strengths shuffled around. Its not new news, and people are getting super uppity that meta weapons are getting their riven strengths changed know that it'd potentially happen.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

help guide dispositions closer to where we feel they should be

this is what worries me with this. why give us a change every 3 months, just put the dispositions where you want them and leave em be.

 

the only people praising these changes are the people who wanted prices to drop for rivens they wanted to buy.

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Really appreciate all these changes. All of them make sense, at least i didn't find any that would be in the wrong direction.

Maybe except for Vulkar, but that's just my bias.

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1 minute ago, FollowTheFaceless said:

Because trash is always trash, no matter how hard you trying to buff it - it still trash. DE is too thick skulled to understand it. (Yeah, I know I'll get hit for that, but it must be said).

Trash like the grinlok, which can 1shot heavy gunners consistently with a neg impact riven BEFORE the prisma variant?

Trash like the snipetron vandal that can roll some incredible rivens that can take out 100+ heavy gunners with a few hits with a gas build?

Trash like the harpak with insane burst DPS with a good riven?

Seriously, remove the IPS of any weapon and you get an armor shredding, gas creating monster. There are very few weapons that are irredeemable with high dispo rivens. With melee, alot of the underused stuff of borked and just as strong as the gram prime. Dual sword are a good category to look at, with most of them being capable of crushing like the gram.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

A nerf that raise the DPS by over 2x with its over twice as fast fire rate. increase crit chance and crit dmg, increase status chance by 50% and have a larger magazine with a increase reload speed? I know you are exaggerating but this meme should die now. It flat out better, it just doesn't do big boom damage anymore.

I know the Opticor Vandal is higher on the DPS (damage per second) but it's lower on the DPS (damage per shot). I like both and I did recommend to newer players to build it because it is still good. But it's just not a good Opticor style weapon. Opticor Vandal is kinda like a super riven: +60% mag size, 0.6 charge rate, slightly high crit chance and crit damage, and higher status chance but -60% base damage. Still good, just not the same XD

Edited by bnShadow13

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2 minutes ago, CasiusFaux said:

I'm not defending the changes, they have repercussions due to the money value of rivens. However what I don't understand is why everyone is flipping out like they never mentioned that rivens would be changed. it was said from the very start, and talked about constantly. Rivens were always meant to be changed and their strengths shuffled around. Its not new news, and people are getting super uppity that meta weapons are getting their riven strengths changed know that it'd potentially happen.

People are mad because they lost money and are emotionally attached to their rivens. This is just people getting burned in a speculative market that changes quickly.

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Только что, (XB1)BootlegMitch90 сказал:

the only people praising these changes are the people who wanted prices to drop for rivens they wanted to buy.

Not true, im genuinely happy that they are balancing rivens to be more appropriate. Almost all of the changes in this adjustment are justified. Im only not sure why did Vulkar deserved a slight nerf since im pretty sure im the only guy using it. Not to mention Rubico Prime is still up in space on power hierarchy.

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25 minutes ago, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

The issue is that rivened weapons are borked. Negative impact grinlok consistently do viral and slash procs that can 1 bump corrupted heavy guns at levels 100+. Any weapon that got nerfed in this patch are weapons that can destroy without a riven help, or are so consistently use by the normal community that it makes no sense for them to have a high riven disposition. Arca plasmor is the most useable shotgun in the game out of the box, with infinite punchthrough and dmg. It strong, and doesn't need help, and everyone use the thing. Complaining that a weapon cannot destroy everything (without warframe buffs as you can still take them far) when they already more than capable of killing most things is a form of entitlement and attachment to rivens. Sometimes, you gotta accept that the game doesn't cater to you.

there was something you seemed to miss that i was talking about and you weren't - math and what Weapons are purpose designed to need.

i don't care about trash Shotguns like Plasmor, i'm plenty aware that Prisma Grinlok is relatively powerful (though still is the succ flexibility wise without Primed Shred because without it you might as well use a Sniper Rifle), i don't care about popularity since it only determines what either takes little effort to Kill Solar Map Enemies or someone on Youtube/Twitch said people gotta have it so everybody went and got it because they don't understand the game and just follow what they're told to do.
and there are plenty of Weapons that get their Riven Multilpiers changed on a regular basis that are purpose designed to require a Riven to breakpoint something important about them. whether such a Weapon can deal decent Damage either way is very far from the point. most of the point that you didn't digest was Weapons that force Players to use Rivens in the first place for the Weapons to work the way they're supposed to.

 

if you're gonna ping me you better be ready to talk facts, have more to say than just talking about popularity stemming from Content Creators telling people what to do without much factual basis..... you better be ready.

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Just now, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

Trash like the grinlok, which can 1shot heavy gunners consistently with a neg impact riven BEFORE the prisma variant?

Trash like the snipetron vandal that can roll some incredible rivens that can take out 100+ heavy gunners with a few hits with a gas build?

Trash like the harpak with insane burst DPS with a good riven?

Seriously, remove the IPS of any weapon and you get an armor shredding, gas creating monster. There are very few weapons that are irredeemable with high dispo rivens. With melee, alot of the underused stuff of borked and just as strong as the gram prime. Dual sword are a good category to look at, with most of them being capable of crushing like the gram.

I still can do the same with just one catchmoon with no rivens at all. Why should I waste time and afford?

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Just now, bnShadow13 said:

I know the Opticor Vandal is higher on the DPS (damage per second) but it's lower on the DPS (damage per shot). I like both and I did recommend top newer players to build it because it is still good. But it's just not a good Opticor style weapon. Opticor Vandal is kinda like a super riven: +60% mag size, 0.6 charge rate, slightly high crit chance and crit damage, and higher status chance but -60% base damage. Still good, just not the same XD

It better on paper, and actually more functional as the standard opticor just did tons of overkill for no reason. It is a straight QOL buff and a direct upgrade, even with a neg puncture riven it is better for gas than a standard opticor In every way. I just don't want the thing to get buffed, THEN nerfed because people want an OP weapon.

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3 hours ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

Yay more balance! Alot of people dont seem to understand what riven disposition is for.

I couldnt stress this enough! The best weapons will always see their rivens change.

 

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I hope at least the riven mafia gets to enjoy all the plat they "profiteered" by reselling rivens for weapons that are now nerfed.

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