April 2019 Riven Disposition Updates

[Kleidon]

Oh. My Pyrana, my poor, poor Pyrana. What have they done to you?

[Allegiance]

As someone who mainly does Endurance kind of stuff, I like those changes.

Buffs to Pox, Zakti, Zarr, Torid, Mutalist Cernos?

Helly yeah, I'll take it.

[Artekkor]

3 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

To add onto this: The other stated function of rivens was to give less popular weapons a higher disposition, therefore enticing more people to use them, while at the same time giving the popular "meta" weapons a lower disposition.
This just so happens to align with the communities "Powerful = Popular".
The goal was to spread out weapon usage and try to even it out instead of having only a handful of weapons that people use.

You can see this popularity in action in a few places.  Such as the Braton series.  They aren't powerful guns...but because nearly everyone starts with one they are "popular" and therefore get a lower disposition.

Don't know, Braton Prime  is a fairly decent gun with aa status build (all those slash procs help a lot). I have a riven  for it aand  its fairly good.

Although the  point about the MK-1 starters bratons... Im still curious how  exactly the balancers of rivens take such things into account. Perhaps there's some threshold when they go "huh, this popularity spike is too big... Are our rivens making it too OP or something?"

There has to be some procedure  like that, right?

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

You nerfed every riven i use

Stradavar

Supra

Lanka

Ignis

Amprex

And catchmoon

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

I just fancied popping in and reporting that my guns still kill stuff OK.

Just worried that DE might think they've given us all water pistols or something from the majority or reactions here.

 

[Mayahai]

21 hours ago, Snowy-Owl said:

Does anyone know if the riven changes are retroactive? Do already rolled rivens before the update get their stats reduced or buffed after this change?

Yes they are.

[Potitius]

Im really happy about the boosts to Zarr, Mutalist Cernos and suprisingly Boltor...

 

however one thing puzzles me: why nerf the panthera? that weapons only real merit (alt fire mode)  is still too bugged to use. even with a 1.5 the weapon is just a niché or joke weapon. so please look into fixing the ammo consumption and tick delay in the alt fire mode before looking into the rivens.

[johnno23]

My guns also work fine. But the issue is the wasted time effort and energy used to get something exceptional. My riven was maybe in the top few % and was never ever going to be sold as it was my reward for all the grind. Rubico critcan 198% CC and 109.5% MS. I was really and truly proud of my lucky roll after all the farming and over 50 rolls on an already hevily rolled riven. I don't care what the reasoning what the excuses or whatever people think. I feel like I have been slapped down for working hard and finally doing well. That's my issue with these changes. They have taken away what was my ultimate dream riven and given me back a 160% 90% which might not look bad on paper but my CC has dropped on my build from a 115% to 99%. people might talk and say "hey that's high enough" but I have still been subjected to a downgrade. Let the banks do that with your money and there would be riots in the street. Warframe is a game and games should be fun. My riven made my gaming much more fun yesterday than it does today. So for myself personally the level of pleasure I get from playing the Teralyst hunt has been reduced. Now some people can say go play something else but that is a cheap shot answer. I am relatively new to Warframe and have enjoyed it tremendously but this has upset me to an extent where I now feel no drive to grind for forma kuva etc to make a great weapon. I now have moving forward the nasty thought in the back of my mind "make it great and it will be crippled with an update" I could be wrong but this is what goes thru my mind and it has adversely effected the fun I was having playing Warframe. I simply feel cheated and it is not a nice feeling and detracts from the fun I was having.

[Ripieee]

17 hours ago, sehafoc said:

Howdy DE!

Firstly I love the game and all of that stuff... I typically like the way the dev team handles balance issues... The coptering / parkour system is a great example of that, etc etc etc...

One thing I'd like to note, balance passes with nerfs are cool in most types of games.  In looters however, it's a slap in the face to your player base.  If someone spends a year farming for the perfect gun/sword/riven/whatever and the dev team figures out they screwed up and couldn't figure out how to balance the game the first time, and then nerf it... You effectively just wasted that persons year.  I personally find this to be completely disrespectful of peoples time in the best case, and in the worst case it's completely disrespectful of their wallet.

I have seriously stopped playing Blizzard games entirely because of the way they handled balances in Diablo 3 (Don't even get me started).  Not just a game, the entire studio.  At least at some point they realized that a real money market in a looter game with the way it was handled was BS (though it took a year or two).  DE isn't close to that level of frustration (for me personally) but these things can, and do happen.

I mean... it's one thing if a mechanic is just released and there hasn't been a lot of time on it.  Sure then, nerf and balance away!  It's something completely different with the system you have here though.  This is a system that's been in place well over the year I've been playing, and probably even longer!  That being said, sometimes -- like with the nuke trinity build -- things slip through, I get that, and every time you guys screw up on game balance I'm not expecting that you completely re-balance the rest of the game based upon that. 

I highly suggest that you just factor the riven disposition into the weapons damage potential and use that to determine MR (or figure out some means to statically allocate dispositions).  For example if you want a Vectis Prime equivalent weapon with a high dispo just make it MR 18 or something.  If you have 2 weapons at MR 18 and wonder why those are the only 2 weapons used.... If people what to roll a riven 300 times to get it right let them do it!  I mean out of the 350+ weapons in the game you should be able to create enough diversity at the end game.

Conversely, I happen to notice that the way you are doing this (changing dispos after a new prime is announced/released) basically creates a lot of churn in the riven market to where new weapons will get inflated prices for awhile.  I'm not saying the company is doing this on purpose because it affects plat sales or anything, but they should realize that this happens and adjust dispos well before there is market insight into the upcoming gear.

Sorry for the long overly negative post.  I just needed to vent a bit.  I'll promptly go off now and buy my 6th Prime access in a row... and who knows... I may pick up a new riven 😛 For the record, I don't buy prime access because I actually need anything in game any longer.  I'm MR 25 and I have most every item in the game already (including rivens for every gun I like).  I do it to support this company because I'm generally appreciative of the game and the community.

I hope the team figures out how to not have rivens universally hated for various reasons.

 

You have totally right!!

[SriJayawardenapuraKotteX]

I feel like in general terrible weapons will stay terrible because of multipliers of these numbers instead of flat additions, e.g. like 300% of 10% base crit chance is still just 30% (unreliable at best) but a weapon with 30% base at 300% would get 90% or basically guaranteed crits. Leads to an obvious bias in gains towards weapons with already good stats, which seems against the "mission statement" of rivens or what have you.

[ShaKaL95]

17 hours ago, sehafoc said:

Howdy DE!

Firstly I love the game and all of that stuff... I typically like the way the dev team handles balance issues... The coptering / parkour system is a great example of that, etc etc etc...

One thing I'd like to note, balance passes with nerfs are cool in most types of games.  In looters however, it's a slap in the face to your player base.  If someone spends a year farming for the perfect gun/sword/riven/whatever and the dev team figures out they screwed up and couldn't figure out how to balance the game the first time, and then nerf it... You effectively just wasted that persons year.  I personally find this to be completely disrespectful of peoples time in the best case, and in the worst case it's completely disrespectful of their wallet.

I have seriously stopped playing Blizzard games entirely because of the way they handled balances in Diablo 3 (Don't even get me started).  Not just a game, the entire studio.  At least at some point they realized that a real money market in a looter game with the way it was handled was BS (though it took a year or two).  DE isn't close to that level of frustration (for me personally) but these things can, and do happen.

I mean... it's one thing if a mechanic is just released and there hasn't been a lot of time on it.  Sure then, nerf and balance away!  It's something completely different with the system you have here though.  This is a system that's been in place well over the year I've been playing, and probably even longer!  That being said, sometimes -- like with the nuke trinity build -- things slip through, I get that, and every time you guys screw up on game balance I'm not expecting that you completely re-balance the rest of the game based upon that. 

I highly suggest that you just factor the riven disposition into the weapons damage potential and use that to determine MR (or figure out some means to statically allocate dispositions).  For example if you want a Vectis Prime equivalent weapon with a high dispo just make it MR 18 or something.  If you have 2 weapons at MR 18 and wonder why those are the only 2 weapons used.... If people what to roll a riven 300 times to get it right let them do it!  I mean out of the 350+ weapons in the game you should be able to create enough diversity at the end game.

Conversely, I happen to notice that the way you are doing this (changing dispos after a new prime is announced/released) basically creates a lot of churn in the riven market to where new weapons will get inflated prices for awhile.  I'm not saying the company is doing this on purpose because it affects plat sales or anything, but they should realize that this happens and adjust dispos well before there is market insight into the upcoming gear.

Sorry for the long overly negative post.  I just needed to vent a bit.  I'll promptly go off now and buy my 6th Prime access in a row... and who knows... I may pick up a new riven 😛 For the record, I don't buy prime access because I actually need anything in game any longer.  I'm MR 25 and I have most every item in the game already (including rivens for every gun I like).  I do it to support this company because I'm generally appreciative of the game and the community.

I hope the team figures out how to not have rivens universally hated for various reasons.

 

Yes. This is the problem. Balance is key but do not mess with the man who works hard to get the peak power fo a gun for the endgame. It is disrespectful and against the player.

[UNO168]

Quote

This is our first time determining disposition changes with the help of an internal ranking

So you're telling me you are trying to balance power creep with p2w mechanic (rivens)

[zirkwander]

Here’s a suggestion:

 

1. Roll back all Rivens as of April 1

2. All Rivens in circulation as of April 1 will be locked out from being tradable and will be considered Legacy Rivens

3. Legacy Rivens will retain their stats as of April 1 and will not be retroactively affected by the Disposition changes. However, if Legacy Rivens are rerolled, the disposition changes will be applied on them and will be now available for trade.

4. Keep the Disposition changes as is and will only affect Rivens in circulation as of April 2 and Legacy Rivens which have been rerolled.

5. You’ve just hit 2 Synovias with a one charge Lanka by killing the Blackmarket of Rivens and teach people not to scam newbies by paying them cheap prices while ensuring that those people who have actually spent effort, time, plats/real money on obtaining their God-tier rivens remain happy. 

6. The people who will be left crying on this post are those who hoarded Rubico/Lanka/Catchmoon/Tombfinger rivens and reselling them at exorbitant prices by buying them at low ball prices from newbies. 

[Boccolotto]

Wow my ballistica Riven get Buffed 😮

[-Bv-Psykiik]

same way DE categorized weapons by MR they can categorize dispositions by MR too .. like how is the " the higher the MR required to equip a weapon .. the higher the stats these weapons have (more powerful)" ..DE can do " the Higher the MR required to equip a weapon .. the lower the disposition these weapon s have" 

so these big numbers  200-300% dmg/CC/CD/range ..etc can only be seen on low MR weapons and its kinda fair bcos MR14 weapons doesn't need higher stats to perform while the poor  low MR weapons can be good 

in this way devs dnd have to keep change disposition 4 times a year (every 3 months) 

[ADDpillz]

My endgame has been collecting rivens for weapons I enjoy.

Sitting at 85/90, my collection was nerfed/buffed about 50/50.

The thing is the nerf greatly overshadows the buff.

This has changed my priorities.

I have no incentive to get rivens for the latest primed/vandal/wraith/prisma variants because they will be next on the chopping block. (avoiding Tripedo and Stradavor  rivens like the plague)

I used to buy every prime access and use the plat to buy 2-3 really good rivens for my fave weapons. This time I don't think I'm going to because I have no desire to buy any more rivens. Actually, I have a much greater incentive to sell most of my collection to minimize my risk.

IMHO, DE should never nerf the same weapon riven twice in a row. At-least do it every other term.

Edit:

for the argument that little changes do not affect peoples builds...say that to the very few players that actually used a -mag riven on the Vectis prime for charged chamber builds. We use to be able to run a decent build with a ++-mag riven. The last two Vectis nerfs now made it literally impossible to get 1 round in mag chamber with a ++- riven forcing those people to pay a super high premium for the +++-mag versions or abandon the build altogether.

Edit 2:

I am also for the suggestion of legacy rivens with locked stats until they are traded or rolled.

[Hammerhead_FireCaste]

4 hours ago, Hamstertron said:

The only thing that surprised me was the fact rivens exist at all. They were released within days of Steve saying on a devstream that he doesn't like mods that directly improve a weapon such that they become mandatory, such as Serration / Point  Blank / Hornet Strike / Pressure Point and that he regrets those mods being in the game.

Against this backdrop it's clear to me that top-tier weapons becoming default picks again, despite having the lowest possible riven dispositions, was going to provoke a reaction from DE. 

I didn't catch that Devstream because I came back to Warframe after 3 years for the PoEidolon update, but I agree with Steve on that. Must-picks in any game is bad, be it a hero in Overwatch, or a mod in Warframe. Of course, since Warframe is PvE, the effect is less severe, but still present.

Customization and choice should be a fun thing, allowing players to experiment with different builds. How it works should be "You can have either this, or that, but not both", so you have two possible builds Riven mods change it to "If you have one of these, you don't need three of those."

I for one, welcome these regular disposition changes, because I am tired of players being so picky when it comes to buying Rivens."Oh, It must have 100% critical damage, 100% multishot, and 300% damage before i even consider buying it." I guess that's what happens when you get a mod that has thousands of iterations, which is the amount of times you'll be re-rolling that sh1t to be satisfied.

[Lobosandia]

16 minutes ago, zirkwander said:

Here’s a suggestion:

 

1. Roll back all Rivens as of April 1

2. All Rivens in circulation as of April 1 will be locked out from being tradable and will be considered Legacy Rivens

3. Legacy Rivens will retain their stats as of April 1 and will not be retroactively affected by the Disposition changes. However, if Legacy Rivens are rerolled, the disposition changes will be applied on them and will be now available for trade.

4. Keep the Disposition changes as is and will only affect Rivens in circulation as of April 2 and Legacy Rivens which have been rerolled.

5. You’ve just hit 2 Synovias with a one charge Lanka by killing the Blackmarket of Rivens and teach people not to scam newbies by paying them cheap prices while ensuring that those people who have actually spent effort, time, plats/real money on obtaining their God-tier rivens remain happy. 

6. The people who will be left crying on this post are those who hoarded Rubico/Lanka/Catchmoon/Tombfinger rivens and reselling them at exorbitant prices by buying them at low ball prices from newbies. 

I like this idea a lot actually. It would probably really manage price inflation by cutting the window that prices are inflated. On the other side of the same coin, it might create a sense of scarcity for good rivens before the next disposition change which could in turn create inflation.

 

I think overall DE does poorly at imposing the perception of the mutability of riven stats. People look at riven stats as permanent things for some reason, probably because of the people who take advantage of the lack of market transparency on DE's part that allows people like the "Riven Mafia" to take advantage with technological savvy and some social manipulation of trade chat.

You can easily coordinate spamming trade chat at regular intervals to force perceived inflation of riven values. A group saw this flaw and took advantage, which is why prices have gone up exorbitantly over the course of a few months.

This problem is the only problem with rivens that needs to be resolved because there will always be someone who thinks they NEED to get lots of plat to buy a good riven. I've never had to buy a rubico riven and I do awesome damage with my rubico/Chroma, yet there are dozens of people complaining that they won't be able to hunt eidolons anymore because their "Rubico/Lanka/Vectis got nerfed".

The gun is the same, the riven just changed, but they look at the riven as part of the gun because of the investment in the riven.

[(PSN)MagicaI_Cat]

23 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Soma is an interesting case study - the Soma Prime is a constant staple across all levels of play, ever since we gave the weapon as part of Twitch Prime in 2017. With an MR restriction of 7, it’s intended to be one of the first Primes a new player will acquire. This overall prevalence initially resulted in a low disposition, but our internal rankings will help bring it to a more respectable baseline in the future.

"Its intended to be one of the first primes a new player will acquire" not if you keep it vaulted all the time... if you have this mindset for it then unvault it and replace it a different prime that's overextended its welcome?

 

I like the idea. But just starting out, your either not gonna have enough plat to trade for it (which prices change depending on person and time, and spend money to get it via trade) or farm relics (which is also flawed to an extent as some people want to run 4 of the same relics and if you dont have it then no) plus other then the unvaulting, where will you get the relics aside from trading? 

I feel like this needs to be changed in some way if you want it to be one of the first weapons people can/should have access too without having to trade or wait for specific events once (maybe twice) a year....