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Reminder: Riven Disposition Nerf does NOT equal "Weapon Nerf"

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42 minutes ago, Karu-QW said:

So it's okay for the devs to screw up simply cause "the system is supposed to change"? Jesus H. Christ, you people like getting screwed over, right..? Can't think of anything else at this point.

There are ppl that will defend anythings the dev's do you can't argue with them they are whipped or want the brownie points who knows?

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3 minutes ago, Commander_Crash_29a said:

There are ppl that will defend anythings the dev's do you can't argue with them they are whipped or want the brownie points who knows?

Or we realized from the start that rivens were a bad idea and that they would eventually be changed regardless of how long DE neglected to do so. At this point you only have yourself to blame for thinking anything good would come from investing in them further.

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As was mentioned during the last riven changes, there's no "end-game" for riven disposition, no riven will ever be balanced and if rivens do significantly impact popularity then that'll shift any time the riven disposition changes hit, necessitating yet more changes, causing more shifts in popularity, and rinse and repeat.

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I think DE themselves need to be reminded. It's no secret that they loathe 6x3 Eidolon runs, Exploiter Orb exploits, being able to kill the Wolf in less than a minute, and other ways we demonstrate the game's power creep, but they're content to wallpaper over cracks and only balance for level <90, rather than give the meta-centralizing mechanics (such as Maiming Body Rush Overload's exponential multipliers, or armor's infinitely-logarithmic damage reduction on both players and enemies) the reworks they probably need

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From my Observations I would say Rivens are indeed taken into consideration when creating or reworking weapons already.

This is most notable with the Secondary Shotguns on the weapon wide re-balance where pretty much all but Bronco was just short of 100% Status until yet a 2nd re-balance to allow some of them to achieve 100% without a Riven. It doesn't take genius level intellect to know the cut off point of a weapon and 100% status.

Mara Detron for example on the first rework game wide

  • Update 21:  Status Chance increased from 10% to 20%
  • Update 22:   Status chance increased from 20% to 32%

So contrary to what you're claiming it seems quite apparent DE designs weapons around Rivens and I would go further in claiming they use Disposition to bait weapons such as Gram Prime or Akjagara into popularity with needlessly high stats in addition to high Riven Disposition. Of course you won't see this trend 100% of the time otherwise it's quite easy to call out but I think it's safe to be suspicious at the very least.

But back to the point. Nerfing Disposition in some ways is worse than nerfing the weapon. A weapon is simply that. You build it, forma it and go. Rivens are a much more time consuming and plat consuming ordeal. Nerfing the Disposition has greater consequences than nerfing a weapon though both have a very negative impact on the value of a Riven when you reduce the Disposition of a Riven you greatly decrease the probability of getting functional rolls that beat standard mods and discourage players from investing into the Riven system at all. Things like 0.5 Disp should not exsist. If the weapon is that OP; the weapon itself should be altered.

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1 hour ago, OmegaZero said:

What gets me are the folks who act like Sicarus Prime, Rubico Prime and similar weapons need Rivens to be good. I’ve seen people in the Dev Workshop thread denounce their supposedly favorite weapons as “trash tier” now just because their Rivens went down a few decimal places.

I honestly like how Rivens can completely change how a weapon feels or acts (eg -ips, recoil, projectile speed, ect) but it seems like many players are using them as a crutch to boost their favorite top tier gun even higher. At this point I wouldn’t mind or care if DE straight up scrapped Rivens for a comprehensive augment system or something.

Actually rubico/lanka whatever needs good riven to be good.

We can't oneshot limbs without great riven.

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I'm not a fan of the rng of rivens in the first place not to mention the excessively high cost/return with kuva farming. 

But this recent change of stats is just showing how poorly thought out rivens where in the first place, like a lot of things DE didn't think about long term consequences to the system.

Players can spend a LOT of time and resources rolling a single riven to get that 'ideal set of numbers' (or spend a lot of plat) and DE can basically come in and nerf that same riven 'because it's popular'.....

DE said before this change that they were going to 'baseline' the scores, something many (myself included) had been suggesting, but DE even managed to screw that up because they still insist in using popularity as a gauge for weapon disposition.... that's just stupid because a weapon that responds well to a riven is going to be popular, it's not exactly rocket science that players will use something that works well, it doesn't mean it's overpowered...

They also decide to nerf weapons that are 'niche' and have limited use outside of things such as orbs/eidolons like in the case of the snipers... I can only think they're being nerfed to increase the grind of those niche areas, like every other nerf to something that allows us to do things quickly and efficiently.

 

 

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1 hour ago, OmegaZero said:

What gets me are the folks who act like Sicarus Prime, Rubico Prime and similar weapons need Rivens to be good. I’ve seen people in the Dev Workshop thread denounce their supposedly favorite weapons as “trash tier” now just because their Rivens went down a few decimal places.

I honestly like how Rivens can completely change how a weapon feels or acts (eg -ips, recoil, projectile speed, ect) but it seems like many players are using them as a crutch to boost their favorite top tier gun even higher. At this point I wouldn’t mind or care if DE straight up scrapped Rivens for a comprehensive augment system or something.

This.  If I get a riven for my Pandero or get a lucky roll with my Magnus riven, my hope is to roll -recoil, magazine size, and fire rate with -zoom being my preferred negative.  Make me a knock-off Lato Prime.

Sadly, most people won't stop until they get some coveted combination of +damage %, +multi-shot, +critical chance and/or critical damage with no crippling negative trait, and complain about the Kuva grind.  Like... stop... you're not meant to have GOD rolls across the board and keep rolling effortlessly for more chances to land one.  You're meant to settle for something "good enough."

And people blowing .2 points way out of proportion is standard fare.  Gamers are notorious for their wild hysterics and inclination towards hyperbole.  Any step backwards, even if measured in mere inches, is considered the end of whatever those inches mattered to for too many people.  

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38 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Actually rubico/lanka whatever needs good riven to be good.

We can't oneshot limbs without great riven.

Considering Rubico's reload time is shorter than the recovery time of the Eidolon, you don't need to one-shot a limb with it.  I've never had any trouble destroying a limb within the 5 shot capacity Rubico Prime has, and that's plenty "good."  Limiting the ability to one-shot Eidolon limbs to qualify a sniper rifle as "good" is the reason there are many problems with balance in this game.  Almost any sniper rifle can one-shot practically all <100 non-boss enemies with a proper setup and no rivens.  As someone who utilizes sniper rifles primarily in normal gameplay, it has always bee my opinion that they are needless powerful compared to other weapon types.

As for the Lanka, it's the only sniper I find unbearable to use, so I have no comments there.

Rivens have been and still are methods of improving a weapon in a way not normally possible with standard mods, and that's how they should be balanced.  Choosing to roll a single riven tens of times, paying exorbitant amounts of platinum for a riven, and feeling the need to have landmark stats on a weapon are player problems, not game or developer problems.  If DE has actually buffed shotguns in order to allow them to get 100% status, then honestly, I think that was a mistake.  If a weapon can't get 100% status normally, a player shouldn't expect that a riven is guaranteed to.  If that were the case, DE just add +Base Status to a possibility for that weapon's Riven and ensure the possible amount doesn't change with disposition.

I have exactly 30 rivens for weapons I own, none of which were purchased with plat.  Are all of the god-tier?  No.  Are all of them convenient buffs I appreciate and couldn't get without a riven?  Yes.  And honestly, only two weapons I have provide any remote concerns about disposition changes, because, no matter what the disposition was, I can't get those bonuses without the riven.

If someone only value Damage, Multishot, Critical Chance, and Critical Damage on your rivens, they are failing to utilize the potential of rivens.  Those are stats you can already get on your weapon, and if you're trying to stack them further, then obviously your going to see balances hurt you.

 

42 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I think DE themselves need to be reminded. It's no secret that they loathe 6x3 Eidolon runs, Exploiter Orb exploits, being able to kill the Wolf in less than a minute, and other ways we demonstrate the game's power creep, but they're content to wallpaper over cracks and only balance for level <90, rather than give the meta-centralizing mechanics (such as Maiming Body Rush Overload's exponential multipliers, or armor's infinitely-logarithmic damage reduction on both players and enemies) the reworks they probably need

Seeing as they recently nerfed the Wolf's survivability, I don't think DE cares too much about people killing him quickly.  The "meta" constitutes an absurd level of min-maxing that is entirely unnecessary for accomplishing anything designed to be done in Warframe.  Before anyone can mention it, I will emphasize that running any mission past the first C reward is never necessary; it is a choice.  That being said, I recognize that DE has poorly decided to include at least two endurance-type Nightwave missions, which I feel was terrible decision making.  Balancing for the meta would be the worst possible action DE could take, because it's irrelevant to the content they're putting out.  Seeing as everything that exists in this game can be done without rivens, the meta should have no bearing on them.  The very fact that people are upset about riven disposition nerfs or feel that rivens under "X" disposition shouldn't exist shows plainly that if they did take measures to stop 6x3 runs or other meta tactics, it would receive so much protest they'd have to revert the changes.  As for exploits, it's common sense a game developer would attempt to eliminate those.  By their very definition, exploits shouldn't exist.

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1 minute ago, EiriMatsu said:

Balancing for the meta would be the worst possible action DE could take, because it's irrelevant to the content they're putting out.

Sorry if I implied I was in favor of that. Rest assured, I recognize that the opposite extreme is just as bad if not worse. It's like asking Valve to balance Team Fortress 2 -- a game with nine classes -- to balance everything around 6v6 competitive leagues -- a game mode that infamously uses only four classes

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That's why riven was a mistake. The smart one would roll and sell "god roll" rivens to the meta whore instead of using it themselves.

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35 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Sadly, most people won't stop until they get some coveted combination of +damage %, +multi-shot, +critical chance and/or critical damage with no crippling negative trait, and complain about the Kuva grind.  Like... stop... you're not meant to have GOD rolls across the board and keep rolling effortlessly for more chances to land one.  You're meant to settle for something "good enough."

And people blowing .2 points way out of proportion is standard fare.  Gamers are notorious for their wild hysterics and inclination towards hyperbole.  Any step backwards, even if measured in mere inches, is considered the end of whatever those inches mattered to for too many people.  

 

It's not entirely the player's fault. The lower the Disposition of the weapon the more precise rolls are needed to slot a Riven mod.

A 1.55 Disposition Riven simply needs one of the primary damage stats to be worth slotting while the other 2 still cannot be IPS in most cases. Punch-through and Zoom can also be counter productive for some weapons and Flight Speed or Recoil could be blank rolls. This is the easiest possible situation to roll a viable Riven.

A 0.5 Disposition Riven needs 3 primary damage stats or 2 with a non-conflicting negative but must also completely avoid all the other situational counter productive or useless rolls the 1.55 Disposition Riven has to because there's no room. This is a massive decrease in probability of success.

That 0.2 Disposition decrease equates to an exponential increase in rolls and time investment to simply make a Riven worth using. I've rolled two "GOD rolls" and sold both of them instantly because I know the RIven system is a cash grab slot machine but for the ones I roll "good enough" that 0.2 makes a big difference.

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7 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

It's not entirely the player's fault. The lower the Disposition of the weapon the more precise rolls are needed to slot a Riven mod.

A 1.55 Disposition Riven simply needs one of the primary damage stats to be worth slotting while the other 2 still cannot be IPS in most cases. Punch-through and Zoom can also be counter productive for some weapons and Flight Speed or Recoil could be blank rolls. This is the easiest possible situation to roll a viable Riven.

A 0.5 Disposition Riven needs 3 primary damage stats or 2 with a non-conflicting negative but must also completely avoid all the other situational counter productive or useless rolls the 1.55 Disposition Riven has to because there's no room. This is a massive decrease in probability of success.

That 0.2 Disposition decrease equates to an exponential increase in rolls and time investment to simply make a Riven worth using. I've rolled two "GOD rolls" and sold both of them instantly because I know the RIven system is a cash grab slot machine but for the ones I roll "good enough" that 0.2 makes a big difference.

The problem here is how you gauge "viable" and "useless" rolls.  +Ammo Maximum, +Magazine Capacity, +Status Duration is a complete buff to the weapon, but I'm pretty sure most people would consider such a riven "useless."  However, compared to not using a riven, you can't get those three stats on a weapon without consuming an extra two mod slots which could be used for damage mods.  Rivens can allow for quality of life improvements without inhibiting the base damage potential of a weapon, but the common mentality anymore is that a riven has to specifically add damage in order to be "viable."

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4 minutes ago, EiriMatsu said:

The problem here is how you gauge "viable" and "useless" rolls.  +Ammo Maximum, +Magazine Capacity, +Status Duration is a complete buff to the weapon, but I'm pretty sure most people would consider such a weapon "useless."  However, compared to not using a riven, you can't get those three stats on a weapon without consuming an extra two mod slots which could be used for damage mods.  Rivens can allow for quality of life improvements without inhibiting the base damage potential of a weapon, but the common mentality anymore is that a riven has to specifically add damage in order to be "viable."

 

I mentioned specific things on purpose. I would not consider +Mag Size or Status Duration useless however +%Flight Speed on a non-Shotgun Hit-scan is. Likewise Punch-Through on a launcher like Zarr renders the weapons non-functional.  -%Recoil on a weapon that has no Recoil. Things of that nature.

It's weapon specific but there are rolls that would equate to blank slots or have a negative impact on performance.

When comparing the lesser stats you have to compare what you're replacing. Dropping your status triggers per shot which is very common for Secondaries is not usually acceptable to +%Mag Size as you'll simply need more shots anyways to break through an Armored unit.

Status Triggers, Bleed DPS, Head-Crit Rate, RoF, Proc Weight. A lot goes into a weapon's performance off paper.

There are a few weapons that need a Utility roll. I use Primed Quick Draw on my Twin Grakatas because 3.0 Reload just isn't acceptable but my Riven is +%Damage +%Multishot +%Toxic to compensate. There's no loss in DPS or proc weight and the weapon handles better.

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8 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I mentioned specific things on purpose. I would not consider +Mag Size or Status Duration useless however +%Flight Speed on a non-Shotgun Hit-scan is. Likewise Punch-Through on a launcher like Zarr renders the weapons non-functional.  -%Recoil on a weapon that has no Recoil. Things of that nature.

It's weapon specific but there are rolls that would equate to blank slots or have a negative impact on performance.

When comparing the lesser stats you have to compare what you're replacing. Dropping your status triggers per shot which is very common for Secondaries is not usually acceptable to +%Mag Size as you'll simply need more shots anyways to break through an Armored unit.

Status Triggers, Bleed DPS, Head-Crit Rate, RoF, Proc Weight. A lot goes into a weapon's performance off paper.

There are a few weapons that need a Utility roll. I use Primed Quick Draw on my Twin Grakatas because 3.0 Reload just isn't acceptable but my Riven is +%Damage +%Multishot +%Toxic to compensate. There's no loss in DPS or proc weight and the weapon handles better.

I want to quickly note that Flight Speed is actually used on hitscan weapons to increase fire range over 300 meters in the open world maps.  Otherwise though, I will admit Flight Speed is pointless.  However, what does that have to do with riven disposition.  Unless I'm misunderstanding how riven disposition works (maybe I am; if so, please correct me), disposition affects the range of the attributes rolled (how high or low they can be), not what possible attributes they can get.

You said previously:

43 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

A 1.55 Disposition Riven simply needs one of the primary damage stats to be worth slotting while the other 2 still cannot be IPS in most cases. Punch-through and Zoom can also be counter productive for some weapons and Flight Speed or Recoil could be blank rolls. This is the easiest possible situation to roll a viable Riven.

A 0.5 Disposition Riven needs 3 primary damage stats or 2 with a non-conflicting negative but must also completely avoid all the other situational counter productive or useless rolls the 1.55 Disposition Riven has to because there's no room. This is a massive decrease in probability of success.

 

A riven doesn't need any damage stats.  That's my point.  The idea that rivens need to be utilized to augment damage exclusively is a problematic mindset when discussing how to approach improving the riven system.  Weapons with low disposition shouldn't be aiming for damage because the numbers it provides aren't worthwhile.  Weapons with high dispositions should aim for damage because rivens were designed to bring low potential weapons up to par with high potential ones.  It's ridiculous to expect to be able to use rivens to amp up the damage of top tier weapons even further because that counter-intuitive to the reason why rivens exist in the first place.

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2 hours ago, Ely.I said:

DE #*!%ed up greatly the day they introduced rivens

they are probably the biggest money earner via plat for DE, i fail to see how that equates to a "F*!k Up", esp when the known fact is the rivens change over time and has been advertised as such to do exactly that, and when they do get a change...  yeah, loads rush off to buy/trade the latest and greatest rivens and more plat floweth.  Players who want them get exactly what was advertised, temporary mini powercreep on their preferred weapons of choice and DE earn megaplat in a nice repetetive cycle, its win win on both sides.

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5 minutes ago, EiriMatsu said:

I want to quickly note that Flight Speed is actually used on hitscan weapons to increase fire range over 300 meters in the open world maps.  Otherwise though, I will admit Flight Speed is pointless.  However, what does that have to do with riven disposition.  Unless I'm misunderstanding how riven disposition works (maybe I am; if so, please correct me), disposition affects the range of the attributes rolled (how high or low they can be), not what possible attributes they can get.

You said previously:

A riven doesn't need any damage stats.  That's my point.  The idea that rivens need to be utilized to augment damage exclusively is a problematic mindset when discussing how to approach improving the riven system.  Weapons with low disposition shouldn't be aiming for damage because the numbers it provides aren't worthwhile.  Weapons with high dispositions should aim for damage because rivens were designed to bring low potential weapons up to par with high potential ones.  It's ridiculous to expect to be able to use rivens to amp up the damage of top tier weapons even further because that counter-intuitive to the reason why rivens exist in the first place.

 

The value range is what determines the difficulty in rolling a Riven which is not a loss in performance over other mod options.

A 1.55 Disposition Riven at 3 buffs 1 negative can get 117.7 to 143.9% Multishot. That's all you need. The other two buffs can be various things long as they're not detrimental to the weapons. As mentioned sometimes IPS can be, sometimes Punch-through, ect.

A 0.55 Disposition Riven at 3 buffs 1 negative only gets 41.8 to 51.0% Multishot. That's a net loss on it's own. You need yet another primary damage stat to cut even and still have to avoid all the other conflicts or dead rolls I mentioned and of course Multishot is pretty much the best roll you can get on 99% of weapons. If you get something like 76.6 to 93.6% Damage you might need all three rolls to not produce a net loss for using that Riven.

I'm just trying to cut even here. If a RIven should be a DPS boost or not is subjective. For myself the gain is needed because I push much further in levels than most and I do it Solo so every point counts. What's powerful in Warframe is also subjective and why Riven's claimed purpose was doomed to fail from the start. For any other game a weapon that can kill the highest level enemies would determine it's value but Warframe is all screwed up where clearing fodder and speed determines a weapon's value.

From my perspective DE just keeps buffing the strongest weapons in the game. Zarr, Torrid, Zhuge, Pox, Zakti, Quanta, Synapse, Twin Rogga.

It's kinda funny. I've taken most those weapons to lvl 300-400 and they just keep buffing them.

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43 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

they are probably the biggest money earner via plat for DE, i fail to see how that equates to a "F*!k Up", esp when the known fact is the rivens change over time and has been advertised as such to do exactly that, and when they do get a change...  yeah, loads rush off to buy/trade the latest and greatest rivens and more plat floweth.  Players who want them get exactly what was advertised, temporary mini powercreep on their preferred weapons of choice and DE earn megaplat in a nice repetetive cycle, its win win on both sides.

I don't understand this argument.   Do you regularity hang out with people who spend $100's of dollars just to buy rivens?

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4 hours ago, Karu-QW said:

So it's okay for the devs to screw up simply cause "the system is supposed to change"? Jesus H. Christ, you people like getting screwed over, right..? Can't think of anything else at this point.

biS6aO7.jpg

...What did you expect to happen, honestly? I condemn Riven's garbage RNG but this was already advertised from day 0, and even announced few months prior.

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3 hours ago, Test-995 said:

We can't oneshot limbs without great riven.

So terrible it would be if you know that was what was actually intended for the fight.

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31 minutes ago, Chappie1975 said:

I don't understand this argument.   Do you regularity hang out with people who spend $100's of dollars just to buy rivens?

where did that arbitrary number come from?  for many riven prices just go search riven market, theres plenty of 1500plat rivens way up to 10k and higher, that plat aint free, even if someone farmed mods and sold them for free plat, that plat was originally bought by someone, somewhere, so compare those riven prices vs selling 5plat mods or frame parts which aren only in the hundreds, its easy to see what the biggest earners are.

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At the end of the day, every unbalanced weapons (damage, gameplay, feeling, design) will have strong dispositions, when the most balanced (enjoyable) will have weak dispositions.

The riven disposition change is just bad by design.

It should'nt take only into account the player usage stats.

Basically, you will force us to use the weapons that are the less enjoyable to play with.

This is just WRONG.

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18 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I'm just trying to cut even here. If a RIven should be a DPS boost or not is subjective. For myself the gain is needed because I push much further in levels than most and I do it Solo so every point counts. What's powerful in Warframe is also subjective and why Riven's claimed purpose was doomed to fail from the start. For any other game a weapon that can kill the highest level enemies would determine it's value but Warframe is all screwed up where clearing fodder and speed determines a weapon's value.

While I'll agree there is a subjective element to power, I wouldn't agree it's completely subjective.  Playstyle is probably one of the biggest subjective elements, as one can see when viewing debates about using mods like Argon Scope, Hydraulic Crosshairs, and Laser Sight.  Many people consider sniper rifles to be weak outside of use for Eidolons, but my personal opinion is that they are still downright superior to all other weapon types for everything.  Your view that Multishot is the best roll is an example of that; for weapons like the Akbronco, I would consider Recoil a better roll because Multishot is meaningless if the poor handling of a weapon renders it incapable of hitting anything.

You also mention that you push further than most.  Warframe does indeed have a screwed up system regarding difficulty, but it's not difficult to create a scale.  If a weapon can't kill a Charger on Eris in its entire clip with the base Damage (Serration, Point Blank, etc) and Multishot (Split Chamber, Barrel Diffusion, etc) mods within the first rotation (up to the first C reward), it is weak.  Star chart level content is the base of Warframe, and anything that under performs in ability to kill enemies needs damage.  These are weapons that need high disposition.  The maximum power of a weapon is likely too subjective to make a scale, but the minimum power is not.

Sorties, Arbitrations, and ESO push the bar when it comes to damage output.  Sortie, the first C rotation of Arbitrations, and ESO in general bring the list of "usable" weapons down to a significantly smaller number.  This is where I feel rivens should make the biggest difference.  WIth a damage-focused lineup of attributes, all variant weapons and varient-less weapons should be able to perform in these game modes.  If a riven can't do that, it needs to be stronger.

Beyond that is where balance is just a dark abyss.  Endurance running is not a necessary or exclusive element of Warframe, and therefore is ultimately irrelevant in the case of riven balance.  Those issues of armor scaling and power creep are issues rooted in the core mechanics of Warframe, and I hope rivens are never forced into the role of trying to be that balancing tool.

Tiberon Prime, without a riven, can carry me all the way through 60 minutes of Kuva Survival.  It has 3 Riven Disposition.  I will admit that most level 30 weapons sitting in my arsenal received little more attention than a few runs of Hydron or the equivalent, but, to me, it seems quite strange at a weapon that can manage two additional reward cycles past the first in one of the highest level locations in the star chart is average.  My usage of other weapons dropped significantly after I made Tiberon Prime, because there's essentially nothing in Warframe I can't do with it without a riven.  Assuming weapons of 2 or 1 disposition are stronger than Tiberon Prime (considering the game's balance, probably a poor assumption), I can't see how damage at that point is remotely necessary.

12 minutes ago, Alpha56 said:

At the end of the day, every unbalanced weapons (damage, gameplay, feeling, design) will have strong dispositions, when the most balanced (enjoyable) will have weak dispositions.

Well, by intent, weapons that are unbalanced (too weak) are supposed to have higher disposition.  Not sure where you get the "feeling" part from though.  I'd love to hear how different Nikana Prime (1 Disposition) feels from Dragon Nikana (5 Disposition).

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1 hour ago, NaoEthelia said:

biS6aO7.jpg

...What did you expect to happen, honestly? I condemn Riven's garbage RNG but this was already advertised from day 0, and even announced few months prior.

I don't think I've ever seen someone be so disingenuous in a post before.

 

DE introduces a mechanic that they think will do X, but instead it ends up doing Y.  Rather than working within what they inadvertently established with Y, they instead try to make it closer to X, and it pisses off people in the process due to the problems already inherent in the mechanic that's still yet to be properly addressed.

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