Reminder: Riven Disposition Nerf does NOT equal "Weapon Nerf"

[Bl00dRedRage]

Rivens are not necessary at all to complete any of the content in this game. All the top weapons are on top regardless of the riven. If there is one thing that would help fix the mess of rivens it would be to make them untradeable and remove the disposition changing but that won't ever happen.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 hours ago, Test-995 said:

Actually rubico/lanka whatever needs good riven to be good.

We can't oneshot limbs without great riven.

Uhhh yes you can. No riven required if you do it right. 

[SenorClipClop]

8 hours ago, Zyneris said:

Are these weapons all still viable with their changes? I'm sure for the most part they are - I cannot say for certain because I'm not affected and therefore cannot give accurate testing information.

First thing I did after the update was check my nerfed Rivens, and the changes were... very small. Checking my Corinth and Stradavar Rivens they both may have lost a couple percentage points of Crit Chance, but that's it. My Corinth still sits in the mid-90s and my Strad is still over 100%*. As far as I've seen, changes to Rivens haven't significantly affected how weapons perform. I challenge anyone to post before/after pics or stats of their builds to prove otherwise.

EDIT: My Strad is actually at 99.7% Crit Chance now. Oh noooo...

Edited April 3, 2019 by SenorClipClop

[Wesgile]

Moral of the story: Just use whatever you felt like using. Most are viable for anything even without rivens, with rivens it's just a bonus. Don't just copypaste whatever FOTM weapon the streamers/youtubers/riven cartel tells you to.

If it's underpowered, buffs might come; if it's overpowered, expect a nerf, but it will still stay viable regardless anyway.

[Vanille]

10 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

No, it's not fun, it does hurt, but I understood the system of Temporary Power I was getting into. We all did. Just like we know that, as much as we forma and enjoy our Inaros's now, and boost up their Kill counts in the Stats screen......Inaros Prime is STILL going to come and make it nearly obsolete someday to the entire player-base. Yes, you can still play with it, but other Players will take you slightly less seriously, assuming that you either can't put in the effort to get the Prime version, or that you're just a less knowledgeable or skilled player in general. It's different from the Riven Shifts, but it's still some-what similar in the "This WILL Change" aspect.

Even though the whole riven topic is indifferent to me personally (I barely use rivens, like a couple of them), that's a bad analogy.
In the Prime cases, you invest to enjoy it for years until the Prime comes out, in which case you don't lose any meaningful stat other than profile numbers (which you can work for again eventually). People not only spent time using those weapons/rivens, but some also spend of a lot of time farming kuva/plat for them, and they don't just lose profile numbers nor replace it with an improved version, it's just a flat downgrade, even though I agree people knew what they were getting into and dispotions would change.

Both DE and players are at fault in this whole riven argument that's been going on for like forever. For some, rivens are like an end-game hunt/farm because it provides them with something to do, so DE created this system and knew it was bad for so long and now it's late and the riven market is out of control. And in the other hand, players gave these unnecessary mods for already strong weapons such a high value on plat, willing to pay a lot for it knowing the disposition would eventually change and getting pissed for it.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Vanille

[SenorClipClop]

8 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Rivens are a much more time consuming and plat consuming ordeal.

That's exclusively player-driven, though, for an element of the game that is completely optional. I have maybe spent 40 Plat on Rivens, total, and I'm okay with "good" rolls to use on my weapon, not "god" ones. I suppose this is worse for meta-babies and traders, but DE's been pretty up-front about the fact that Riven Dsipos aren't set in stone. Furthermore, anyone with a decent knowledge of how changes go in this game had to have known generally what was coming in advance.

8 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Nerfing the Disposition has greater consequences than nerfing a weapon

It really doesn't. Nerfing the Disposition means the weapon is weaker for those with a Riven. Nerfing the weapon means the weapon is weaker for everyone. Plus like 99% of Mods, Rivens just add percentages to the base stats of a weapon, so nerfing the weapon itself would be a functional nerf to a Riven anyway.

8 hours ago, Xzorn said:

when you reduce the Disposition of a Riven you greatly decrease the probability of getting functional rolls that beat standard mods and discourage players from investing into the Riven system at all.

While you have a point, that's not going to stop Rivens for the Arca Plasmor and Rubico from being ludicrously expensive. Wonder why?

[Lysithea.Nya]

10 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Riven Disposition Nerf does NOT equal "Weapon Nerf"

 

Yes it does

[Nez-Kal]

5 minutes ago, Lysithea.Nya said:

Yes it does

Alright. So what you're telling me is that due to the "nerfs" done to the Vectis and Vectis Prime, I should stop using the gun as my go-to Sniper rifle DESPITE not having a Riven for it?

I guess that's the way it is, as a "Nerf" is a "Nerf". I'm sure many others will agree with you, and stop using their Vectis's as well. It's such a shame. It was such a solid Sniper rifle for years, but after this terrible "nerf", I just can't see any players going back to it. /s

 

PS: What a shame too, that they "Nerfed" the Stradavar Prime AS they released it. Very odd move on DE's part to release something AS they're also nerfing it. Huh. /s

Edited April 3, 2019 by Tangent-Valley

[Picmuch]

thx for nerfing rivens idiots!

[Viges]

15 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Short answer: No. No they don't.

Don't what? Who?

 

Also YOU are WRONG. And if you DON'T have rivens for TOP GUNS, it's YOUR problem. I was once like you. Poor. Indebted. Lazy. Then, the Void spoke to me. It said: 'Work harder'. And so, I did. I earned what I have. And now, Tenno, it's your turn. Listen to the Void. Work. Harder.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Viges

[Softballbryan]

Thank you OP for the reminder.. I had to take a moment and read the notes to verify that it’s just Rivens, which to me are added seasoning to a weapon and not mandatory for enjoying the game.

[Zimzala]

15 hours ago, Karu-QW said:

You're trying to tell me to just accept things? Is this what you do all your life? Man, I'm glad I'm not such a weak person.

HAHAHAHAHA!

Weak? Caling someone with the self-discipline to understand how things work in the real world weak, by a weak-minded, hype-obsessed fool that gets worked up over a change in a video game?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

So the last time the IRS changed the tax code you told them what for? When the health coverage were you work changed, I am sure you told them how to do it right as well, since you don't accept things, right?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

This forum never ceases to amuse.

[Rhyandra]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

HAHAHAHAHA!

Weak? Caling someone with the self-discipline to understand how things work in the real world weak, by a weak-minded, hype-obsessed fool that gets worked up over a change in a video game?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

So the last time the IRS changed the tax code you told them what for? When the health coverage were you work changed, I am sure you told them how to do it right as well, since you don't accept things, right?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

This forum never ceases to amuse.

Oh look an internet troll. Buddy, do you know others can look into your post history? Try harder next time, kid.

[Ambivadox]

My weapons are all doing fine.  Riven changes had no effect on any weapons I have...

Also have no rivens.

So thread title was accurate.  None of my guns were nerfed.  😛

[Xzorn]

5 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

That's exclusively player-driven, though, for an element of the game that is completely optional. I have maybe spent 40 Plat on Rivens, total, and I'm okay with "good" rolls to use on my weapon, not "god" ones. I suppose this is worse for meta-babies and traders, but DE's been pretty up-front about the fact that Riven Dsipos aren't set in stone. Furthermore, anyone with a decent knowledge of how changes go in this game had to have known generally what was coming in advance.

It really doesn't. Nerfing the Disposition means the weapon is weaker for those with a Riven. Nerfing the weapon means the weapon is weaker for everyone. Plus like 99% of Mods, Rivens just add percentages to the base stats of a weapon, so nerfing the weapon itself would be a functional nerf to a Riven anyway.

While you have a point, that's not going to stop Rivens for the Arca Plasmor and Rubico from being ludicrously expensive. Wonder why?

 

Rivens are about as optional as Primed mods, Umbra Forma, Arcanes or the Focus system.

You don't "need" any of that to clear basic content in the game. Hell some frames don't need mods. I've done it before as mockery. Still we all know people are going to go for it cuz it's there and it's more power. I'm not making excuses for people getting angry. They should know by now. I'm more claiming the system is very flawed.

If a weapon drops 20% in DPS you can still choose to use it and the Riven. That's the main difference. Choice. One method gives you none. I personally find that to be more destructive by taking the player out of the Riven game with a simple stat change. Unless nerfing the weapon involves like what they did with Simulor 10% > 4% > 14% Crit which is just No. Never do that again DE. Playing with a weapon's stats within a break point of build viability is a huge No but they've only done that once so far.

When it comes to the very low end weapons this is why I'm very pro on the Vandal / Wraith / Prisma / Prime / Infested variants. I truly believe having distinct upgrade variants while treating Prisma as side grades will help stabilize Disposition and give players a clear goal if they like a particular weapon.

 

10 hours ago, EiriMatsu said:

-snip-

 

That's kinda the issue with attempting to balance Rivens based on the weapons. The damage system and game itself isn't that simple. Synergy plays the majority roll in this game. Most players would agree that Amprex scaled like hot garbage and ate ammo like a cow before the beam weapon changes. It would have been an awful endurance weapon and yet I have a pre-buff Amprex + Volt video going lvl 300 MOT Solo with 200k Bleed ticks on that weapon.

A weapon in the hands of one frame or another is night and day. So how do you realistically balance the weapon itself? You can take a weapon that can't kill a Charger on Eris like you mentioned. Maybe Pox? Put it in the hands of Nidus and Stomp your way to lvl 400 against Grineer cuz Pox is a status monster.

Most guns on their own are going to struggle hard past lvl 200. All of them. it's the synergy we make with them that pushes further. Balance doesn't really exist in Warframe so what are they rating these Dispositions on? I'd claim it's still simple Popularity. This even after they claim to be putting more one-on-one attention to Disposition. Actual power plays no part at all as these tricks for lvl 300-400 enemies work perfectly fine against Sorties or Arbitrations as well. Kinda why that content bores me.

The one-on-one attention is most likely to keep within break points for builds like my first post of Secondary Shotguns being 100% status worthy. As I mentioned to SeniorClipClop I think we need more upgrade Variants in the game to help stabilize Disposition. I'm over here looking at a Magnus that's MR 10 for some reason wondering how I can even get Riven rolls close to the performance of Tombfinger at base value.

[Zimzala]

29 minutes ago, Karu-QW said:

Oh look an internet troll. Buddy, do you know others can look into your post history? Try harder next time, kid.

HAHAHAHA!

OK, toughguy, so when in RL have you shown such 'strength' as to make us think you are not 'weak'?

You started off by calling others weak for not railing against the things that rile you up, implying they were weak in RL.

Where is your proof you are nothing more than another over-hyped gamer that does not have the ability to understand how the world works? 

You called out others, so I called you out, pretty simple.

Use what buzzword or name you like on me, I have been called worse in RL, I am sure, being a 50+ year old 'kid'.

Explain to me how someone is 'weak' in RL for understanding how the world works? 🙂 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Zimzala
speeling

[Jitsuryoku]

Don't pick on words... when people say a weapon has been nerfed, with disposition, they mean its potential when min-maxed. 

If you don't have a riven and are never planning to get one, then yeah, disposition changes don't matter.

In every other scenario riven disposition nerf is a NERF TO MAXIMUM POTENTIAL OF A WEAPON. By extension, if you already have a great riven on a weapon and disposition gets dropped, your build gets nerfed.

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Karu-QW said:

So a dispo buff does not equal a buff? You can't be saying this for real. Or why are you making this nonsense up? DE clearly gave up on weapon balancing since they have introduced riven mods cause it's so much easier to do that than work on the weapons stats. Not to forget how horrible riven mods become below 0.7 since diversity for weapon builds becomes entirely useless too.

 

Also, Kuva farm is tedious, slow and rng reliant as hawk said above. Literally no compensation for anything. Strong weapons already clear out the garbage low level content that DE puts out. Those dispo nerfs make it even worse for endurance runs and arbitration. I'll say it again, NO riven should be below 0.7. This whole riven system is extremely toxic anyway. But do you know what's even more toxic? People defending such garbage decisions from developers. Those are the reason why so much games have been ruined in the past. 

Except that what you say are lies or simply missinformed opinions.

Last year we had a major weapon rebalancing patch, including a full blown rework of how channeled weapons work.

You also dont need rivens for Arbitrations, unless you stay for a pointlessly long time, something DE have already said they arent balancing the game around. Mostly you dont stay for more than an hour in arbitrations, becuase a better mission may have popped. Rivens arent really needed for anyhting in the game because the strong weapons are already strong without them and they are always a choice over weaker weapons no matter what you do. They really only become a thing if you wanna use a weaker weapon in harder content.

[Hypernaut1]

i honestly barely notice a loss in effectiveness on my nerfed meta rivens. In fact, id go as far to say the buffs has more of a noticeable difference than the nerfs. My Mutalist Cernos for example, noticeably performs better. Im not even sure what or how much it was buffed. 

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 15 heures, EiriMatsu a dit :

A riven doesn't need any damage stats.  That's my point.  The idea that rivens need to be utilized to augment damage exclusively is a problematic mindset when discussing how to approach improving the riven system.  

Ignoring the fact that those utility you speak of simply translates into more damage anyway, only it affects sustained damage more than burst damage, there is a huge problem with that. 

Utility stat have even worse rolls than damage ones. For instance, a max stat roll Tigris riven can get 1.something punchthrough and barely +30% reload speed while having a neg. Seeking fury works on all shotguns and gives you comparable buffs. 

Now, IF utility rolls weren't affected by disposition we'd be having another discussion entirely. But they do. And on top of that, the problem specifically with 0.5 and 0.6 dispo guns is that most of the time the riven is worse than any other mod in that same slot, to the point that whether for damage, utity or whatever you're better off using something else in place of that riven. 

Which is really really bad. I understand we don't need rivens 1.0 where a dread got the same stats boosts as a lato, but having rivens which are literally useless or counterproductive is completely bonkers. Minimum disposition should hover around 0.7/0.8 to make those rivens not useless. I dread the day my pyrana riven goes down there, and I'm debating whether i should sell it already at this point.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Autongnosis

[Skaleek]

I would like them to reconsider the bottom end disposition as well as the top end. I would much prefer to see a range of .75 - 1.25 than our current disparity. Where one Riven with a high disposition can be up to 3x as powerful as a riven with low disposition. 0.5 disposition rivens are garbage and not worth a slot. This should never be the case given the capacity drains of rivens, and the effort required to acquire, roll, and max them.

Also based on the most recent nerfs, I think its fairly obvious to anyone that Lanka, Catchmoon, Rubico, and a few other weapons are all on the path to 0.5 disposition.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Skaleek

[Xzorn]

21 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Ignoring the fact that those utility you speak of simply translates into more damage anyway, only it affects sustained damage more than burst damage, there is a huge problem with that.

 

This is a good point. I'd add that Rivens don't consider Primed versions of mods. ie Primed Fast Hands, Primed Quick Draw, Primed Slip Mag.

The Twin Grakatas Riven I used as an example with +%Damage +%Multishot +%Toxic has -%Reload Speed.

I happily use Primed Quick Draw on it which is twice the value of getting +%Reload on the Riven.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

3 hours ago, Karu-QW said:

Oh look an internet troll. Buddy, do you know others can look into your post history? Try harder next time, kid.

To be fair they are correct as we live in a world where almost everything changes over time. By the way, you did read the EULA, right? DE reserves the right to change anything in the game at any time and you do not own anything. And DE  even told us that rivens would change over time.

Feel free to express your displeasure over these changes and ask for a more concrete method of balancing rivens, but please let's not pretend that understanding exactly what rights we have makes us weak.

And lastly, let's not play the 'kid' card, it just makes you look immature.

[SordidDreams]

21 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Reminder: Riven Disposition Nerf does NOT equal "Weapon Nerf"

Reminder: Yes it does.

Does the gun deal less damage now? Yes. That's what a nerf is.

Edited April 3, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Helch0rn]

55 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Reminder: Yes it does.

Does the gun deal less damage now? Yes. That's what a nerf is.

No.

The stats of the weapons themself were not changed only mods that are quite rare to come by.

So I and everyone like me, who doesn't have these Rivens was not nerfed since the weapon itself deals the same amount of damage

 

20 hours ago, Test-995 said:

Actually rubico/lanka whatever needs good riven to be good.

We can't oneshot limbs without great riven.

I have a guy in my clan with 450+ Hydrolyst captures who can oneshot the limbs with his operator

so No, rivens are not needed