Reminder: Riven Disposition Nerf does NOT equal "Weapon Nerf"

[SordidDreams]

14 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

No.

The stats of the weapons themself were not changed only mods that are quite rare to come by.

So I and everyone like me, who doesn't have these Rivens was not nerfed since the weapon itself deals the same amount of damage 

Really? Your argument is literally "it doesn't affect me, so it doesn't exist"? I don't think I even need to respond to that in earnest.

[Helch0rn]

Just now, SordidDreams said:

Really? Your argument is literally "it doesn't affect me, so it doesn't exist"? I don't think I even need to respond to that in earnest.

and your argument is: I deal less damage, therefor the weapon has been nerfed.

I don't think I even need to respond to that in earnest

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Helch0rn said:

your argument is: I deal less damage, therefor the weapon has been nerfed. 

I mean, yeah. That's what the word "nerf" means (in this context).

[Helch0rn]

Just now, SordidDreams said:

I mean, yeah. That's what the word "nerf" means (in this context).

but a nerf to the riven does not mean automatically mean that the weapon has been nerfed into uselessness since only a tiny minority of player even uses rivens for these specific weapons.

or would you also call it a weapon nerf if Primed Chamber would be nerfed?

[SordidDreams]

3 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

a nerf to the riven does not mean automatically mean that the weapon has been nerfed into uselessness

True, which is why I never said that. Please respond to what I'm actually saying instead of propping up straw men for the express purpose of knocking them down easily.

3 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

or would you also call it a weapon nerf if Primed Chamber would be nerfed? 

Do you mean to imply that the number of people using Primed Chamber is comparable to the number of people using rivens?

Edited April 3, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Nez-Kal]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Reminder: Yes it does.

Does the gun deal less damage now? Yes. That's what a nerf is.

I'm a little surprised by how many people can't seem to understand "A Riven is a Riven and a Weapon is a Weapon".

 

Stop calling a Riven Disposition Nerf a "Weapon Nerf". It's not. The Riven Disposition and Riven Stats /for/ a Weapon have been nerfed, Not the Weapon itself.

 

By that logic, if a Warframe skin like Saryn Napellus Skin got their "breast shine" reduced, should we expect players to start screaming (in VERY seriousness) "DE NERFED SARYN!!!"? No. No we shouldn't. It's a Skin, it looks pretty, it goes on the Frame and make the Frame look prettier......but it's NOT the Frame itself. We can expect players to talk about the Skin, and what DE has done to it, but we wouldn't take literally any players serious if they went about it claiming DE nerfed the Frame itself.

 

That's the point I'm trying to make here. I Do Not like the Riven Disposition Nerfs. I Don't. I understand Why they're a thing and why they happen......but it still grinds me the wrong way. What I want is for players to talk about it and talk about it seriously....and one of the least and most stupidest ways of talking about it is claiming "Weapon Nerfs!". That's why I'm doing this. So that my side has a chance of being taken more seriously when DE looks over this and reviews it in the offices.

[SordidDreams]

10 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

I'm a little surprised by how many people can't seem to understand "A Riven is a Riven and a Weapon is a Weapon".

I'm a little surprised that you can't seem to understand that since a riven is only usable on one weapon (+variants), changes to a riven are effectively changes to the weapon. Maybe it would be helpful for you to think of a riven as another kind of potato that you permanently apply to a weapon, or maybe as another mandatory mod along the lines of Serration or Split Chamber, which also never get removed from any weapon ever. Sure, not everyone has one, but once you do, you're never ever taking it off, it effectively becomes a part of the weapon (unless you get a better one). Just because not everyone is able to bring a weapon to its maximum potential doesn't mean it's not a nerf when that maximum potential gets reduced.

Saying that reducing riven dispositions is not a nerf because not everyone has a riven is equivalent to saying that reducing Serration from 10 ranks to 8 is not a nerf because not everyone has it maxed out.

10 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

By that logic, if a Warframe skin like Saryn Napellus Skin got their "breast shine" reduced, should we expect players to start screaming (in VERY seriousness) "DE NERFED SARYN!!!"?

Um, have you been paying attention to the Wisp controversy? Players are screaming that DE nerfed her a$$.

Edited April 3, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Helch0rn]

4 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

True, which is why I never said that. Please respond to what I'm actually saying instead of propping up straw men for the express purpose of knocking them down easily.

never intended to build a strawman. I am just a cynical person, mocking those that equate a lowered riven dispo on their favourite meta cheese to DE making the weapon useless

4 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Do you mean to imply that the number of people using Primed Chamber is comparable to the number of people using rivens?

Do I see a starwman? just kidding.

I know there is only like 100 Primed chamber going around. It's an overexxagerated example on how a change to something that only affects a tiny fraction of the playerbase can not be called a nerf for the whole community. And while in total many people use Rivens the total amount of Rivens for one specific weapon is tiny compared to the playerbase. Lanka Rivens for example wouldn't go for hundreds of thousands of Plat if they were easy to come by.

[Nez-Kal]

3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I'm a little surprised that you can't seem to understand that since a riven is only usable on one weapon (+variants), changes to a riven are effectively changes to the weapon

You're never clearly never going to understand this, continue shouting your flawed opinion to the heavens, and cause the rest of us to work THAT MUCH Harder to get DE to take our side seriously in the long run. Good day.

[taiiat]

Riven Multipliers going down does nerf some Weapons. ones that have Stats that are setup to mandate Players needing Crit Chance, Status Chance, Multi-Shot, Et Cetera Rivens for the Weapons to be used correctly/as they were intended.

 

for some Weapons it's not a massive deal because a Riven just offers an overall DPS Multiplier, rather than offering Stats that the Weapon needs to even function correctly.

Edited April 3, 2019 by taiiat

[Duality52]

22 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Reread the announcement, they're explicitly not going off popularity anymore, but an internal measure of how powerful they think the weapon is.

In the long run this'll be better.

That explains how the Angstrum, Panthera, somehow the Viper (Wraith) back in November, the Vulkar, and the Lato got lowered in their dispositions.

Angstrum's too risky for its punch. Panthera, how's it remotely strong compared to even the Miter? The Viper makes no sense too due to how weak it its. The Lato may be a starter weapon, but the Vandal's pretty difficult to get even with its good stats. Vulkar (especially the Wraith) works decently well, but the community overshadows it with Vectis Prime or Rubico Prime (Lanka's mainly seen in Eidolon hunting).

Edited April 3, 2019 by Duality52

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, Tangent-Valley said:

You're never clearly never going to understand this, continue shouting your flawed opinion to the heavens, and cause the rest of us to work THAT MUCH Harder to get DE to take our side seriously in the long run. Good day.

Maybe you should continue reading past the part you quoted, since I actually do go on to explain why I think that. Or maybe you did and you have no answer? Who knows. Good day to you as well.

1 hour ago, Helch0rn said:

I know there is only like 100 Primed chamber going around. It's an overexxagerated example on how a change to something that only affects a tiny fraction of the playerbase can not be called a nerf for the whole community. And while in total many people use Rivens the total amount of Rivens for one specific weapon is tiny compared to the playerbase. Lanka Rivens for example wouldn't go for hundreds of thousands of Plat if they were easy to come by.

Of course it's not a nerf to the whole community, but just because not everyone is able to bring a weapon to its maximum potential, that doesn't mean that lowering that maximum potential is not a nerf. Lots of people do use rivens that they spent a lot of plat and/or kuva on, and watching all that effort and expense evaporate right before your eyes through no fault of your own just doesn't feel very good. That's a slight problem, since making people feel good is the whole point of entertainment products such as video games.

As a side note, I wouldn't consider a nerf to Primed Chamber to be a weapon nerf simply because that mod is not worth using in the first place, a good riven will serve you far better. Primed Chamber is a meme because of its rarity, nothing more. A half-decent riven, on the other hand, becomes mandatory the moment you acquire it and is never taken off its weapon again. If you want to understand where people like me are coming from, don't think of rivens as a bonus thing on top of a weapon, think of weapons as incomplete until they get a riven, in a similar way that they are incomplete until they get a potato.

Edited April 3, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Nez-Kal]

3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Maybe you should continue reading past the part you quoted, since I actually do go on to explain why I think that. Or maybe you did and you have no answer? Who knows. Good day to you as well.

Uuuuuuuugh fine. I only highlighted the initial part to save room and to let you know I was replying to your latest reply post.

As for the rest, you basically said "See, this is a Riven that not many people have, and that Riven does less now on the Weapon you put it on........therefore, the Riven is also the Weapon now and my logic is sound and flawless". Again, Yeeeeeeeeessssssss....A Riven is a Riven, and the Riven got nerfed. But, and stay with me here......it's NOT the Weapon itself. Gasp!

 

Bad argument I didn't even want to bother trumping, but you keep inviting it on yourself. A Riven is a Riven, and a Weapon is a Weapon. This fact isn't going to change, stop saying they're the same. MY Viper Riven stat nerfs don't effect the Viper Wraith someone will pick up from Baro soon enough. Surprise surprise! Their weapon is fine, and doesn't do less now, only MY Riven does less now. Say all the Potato stuff you want, the WEAPONS weren't nerfed! Get over your flawed opinion and lets get a serious discussion going with DE as to why our RIVENS matter to us and talk to them about how we'd like to change things!

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Tangent-Valley said:

As for the rest, you basically said "See, this is a Riven that not many people have, and that Riven does less now on the Weapon you put it on........therefore, the Riven is also the Weapon now and my logic is sound and flawless". Again, Yeeeeeeeeessssssss....A Riven is a Riven, and the Riven got nerfed. But, and stay with me here......it's NOT the Weapon itself. Gasp!

Uh-huh... So by that logic, reducing Serration from +165% damage to +120% damage would not be a nerf to literally all guns, right? Because Serration is Serration and a gun is a gun?

[Nez-Kal]

Just now, SordidDreams said:

Uh-huh... So by that logic, reducing Serration from +165% damage to +120% damage would not be a nerf to literally all guns, right? Because Serration is Serration and a gun is a gun?

A staple Mod is a staple Mod and a Riven is a Riven. A Nerf to a staple Mod is a Nerf to the Entire Community's stock pile and use of that staple Mod, but again though, not the Weapons themselves. Though it is true that the reduction WOULD effect the Damage and DPS output of all Weapons that could slot that particular staple Damage Mod, yes, it is not the case that EVERY Weapon has been nerfed, because their Damage Pools are still the same numbers as before. Only one of the "Lenses" in-which their power can be multiplied through has been nerfed, and the Community could still find ways to incorporate other mods and abilities to boost the power of those previously mentioned and still Not-Nerfed Weapon Damage Pools.

 

This is just a terrible argument to make, and is EASILY shot down as laughed at. Please stop making us Players asking for Riven discussions look terrible with your flawed "logic" on the situation. Please.

Just. Stop.

[FearTheWild]

I think the some of the riven nerf is really stupid, so the reason we have riven is to balance the weapon's defect and make then more usable again, but when you see too many people use this weapon and you decided to reduce the stats?? isn't that counter productive, and most of the time is actually the weapon's problem instead of the riven's problem. let's say ignis, the weapon has always been good for cleaning maps, that is why so many people use it, the only way to reduce the usage is to actually nerf the weapon instead just nerf the riven dispositions. and for some other infested weapon, no matter how good the riven is people simply just will not use them because they are full of craps compare to other weapons.  please fix this concept of change the riven will change everything. 

[SordidDreams]

14 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

A staple Mod is a staple Mod and a Riven is a Riven.

As I said earlier, a riven is a staple mod. It never gets removed unless you get an even better one. I find the fact that you haven't acknowledged that, let alone addressed it, rather telling.

14 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Though it is true that the reduction WOULD effect the Damage and DPS output of all Weapons that could slot that particular staple Damage Mod, yes, it is not the case that EVERY Weapon has been nerfed, because their Damage Pools are still the same numbers as before. Only one of the "Lenses" in-which their power can be multiplied through has been nerfed

What a silly thing to say. That's like saying that removing one meat patty from a Big Mac is not a nerf to the Mig Mac because only the meat got nerfed and not the bun.

14 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

and the Community could still find ways to incorporate other mods and abilities to boost the power of those previously mentioned and still Not-Nerfed Weapon Damage Pools

No, it couldn't, because there are only so many mod slots.

Edited April 3, 2019 by SordidDreams

[(XBOX)Tornicade]

Retuning  a system because the devs feel it wasnt calibrated correctly because they felt it was imbalanced...is the very definition of a nerf. They retuned both weapon power and the rivens itself...perhaps with the next combat changes it was needed,perhaps it was a horrible nerf with no future benefit for this change... Good nerf or bad nerf it was just that ...a nerf...op would probably be better off talking about all the post talking about so many bad rolls...welll now thats less likely to happen

 

[Elyi]

Quote

i fail to see how that equates to a "F*!k Up",

For us players... Unless you enjoy progression locked to RNG, even after massive investment of time farming kuva or massive investment of plat. If you do then I'll happily disregard you.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Ely.I

[IceColdHawk]

On 2019-04-03 at 1:17 AM, trst said:

It's almost like people have, yet again, refused to acknowledge the fact that the system is designed to change over time.

We've gotten this warning from day one and people are still surprised. This community never fails to impress.

 

On 2019-04-03 at 1:22 AM, trst said:

Sorry but the only people getting "screwed over" here are the people who refuse to accept the system for what it is. If people can't accept it then stop using Rivens.

It's not like that we refuse to "acknowledge". Fine, I'm gonna say it then:

This system is trash.

What kinda absurd purpose shall it contain? Making weak weapons somehow good? Considering the immense amount of plat or RNG required to get things going? What a joke. And then weapons like Kohm or Detron get spared because they just so happened to start off with a disposition high enough to reach 100% status with the right riven. Fairness and consistency is still being searched for.

Anyone that knows my old posts regarding rivens might be surprised considering i was "mostly" positive about it. But only because i was hoping for DE to change the system to make sense.

Edited April 3, 2019 by IceColdHawk

[SordidDreams]

42 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

What kinda absurd purpose shall it contain? Making weak weapons somehow good?

Yes, that's the point. Some weapons need to be worse than others in order to give a player meaningful choice and a sense of progression early on, but the result of that is that late-game players might miss their favorite early weapons for the way they looked and handled, even though in terms of stats they're obsolete. Rivens are a way to have that cake and eat it too, they allow an endgame player to bring their favorite crappy gun up to snuff for high-level content. That's why rivens for good guns are getting nerfed, sometimes to the point of barely being worth using, precisely because those guns are good already, and allowing a good gun + riven to still outpace a crappy gun + riven would defeat the whole point.

42 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Considering the immense amount of plat or RNG required to get things going? What a joke. 

That is a major PITA, yes, but you have to restrict rivens to endgame players somehow. Maybe they could be cheaper but with stricter MR locks? Share your ideas, I'd be interested in reading them.

Edited April 3, 2019 by SordidDreams

[(XBOX)grenzik]

Not only is the kuva grind survival slow, tedious, why even bother when the power you get can"t be kept? Found a good weapon and riven? Well, too bad the mod will only get worse and worse over the next months 

[trst]

10 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

 

It's not like that we refuse to "acknowledge". Fine, I'm gonna say it then:

This system is trash.

What kinda absurd purpose shall it contain? Making weak weapons somehow good? Considering the immense amount of plat or RNG required to get things going? What a joke.

Then don't use the system. It's made to be entirely optional; at no practical point in the game is a Riven ever necessary.

Believe it or not the system does, in-fact, make weaker weapons better. Not always better than "good" weapons but still better than they were. And while their impact on good weapons might be more apparent you're only working towards to making a weapon that's overkill for the game's content instead of making a weapon more viable.

Platinum only becomes a factor if you want to use Rivens but refuse to do any grinding for them or only want ones for specific weapons. As well the RNG aspect only becomes worse than any other part of the game when looking only for "godly" rolls.

 

I'm not trying to suggest that the system is perfect by any means but the biggest issues they currently have are entirely player-created ones.

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

but the result of that is that late-game players might miss their favorite early weapons for the way they looked and handled, even though in terms of stats they're obsolete.

Still waiting for the Acrid dispo buff then. Haven't seen anyone but myself and a few other remaining 2013 players use it.

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That is a major PITA, yes, but you have to restrict rivens to endgame players somehow. Maybe they could be cheaper but with stricter MR locks? Share your ideas, I'd be interested in reading them.

I was asking for scaling Kuva survival rewards, kuva enemies dropping them or other game modes in which you can get kuva from for ages. But apparently that isn't happening.

Also what do you think of turning rivens into an "Endgame" kinda mod that gives additional boni towards weaker weapons? Around 1.00 disposition to strong weapons (so the mod is still worth using and farming for) but way higher dispo and/or access to more positives towards the weaker ones? That alone would give me an endgame worth striving for.

[SordidDreams]

27 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

I was asking for scaling Kuva survival rewards, kuva enemies dropping them or other game modes in which you can get kuva from for ages. But apparently that isn't happening.

I kinda get why DE doesn't want to implement scaling rewards, because the longer you stay in a mission, the higher the enemy level, and the more serious balance issues become. Warfame isn't like Diablo 3, where enemy levels can scale infinitely and the game plays the same whether you're dealing 3 damage or 3 billion. You might argue that it should be, and I might agree, but it ain't, and reworking everything to be that way would be a colossal effort with a very uncertain outcome. Maybe someday.

Though I wouldn't say no to an arbitration-like mode that rewarded kuva. And perhaps, rarely, kuva grineer noggles.

27 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Also what do you think of turning rivens into an "Endgame" kinda mod that gives additional boni towards weaker weapons? Around 1.00 disposition to strong weapons (so the mod is still worth using and farming for) but way higher dispo and/or access to more positives towards the weaker ones? That alone would give me an endgame worth striving for. 

Isn't that what we basically have now? I agree that the stat floor for rivens feels a bit low, very low disposition rivens for good guns are barely worth using even with really good stat rolls, but I think that might just be due to the fact that we're used to having good guns with strong dispositions. Which, as implied by Steve on Twitter, should never have been allowed to happen. I also agree that very weak weapons could use more of a boost than they're getting now. It's a damn shame that there's a whole bunch of great looking weapons and/or weapons with interesting gimmicks that just aren't worth using due to the numbers being too low even with good rivens, all the dev time and effort that was put into making them basically going to waste.

Edited April 4, 2019 by SordidDreams