Reminder: Riven Disposition Nerf does NOT equal "Weapon Nerf"

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

What kinda absurd purpose shall it contain? Making weak weapons somehow good? Considering the immense amount of plat or RNG required to get things going? What a joke.

 

It's weird some people still think that's the purpose of Rivens when 90% of the time it fails at that purpose.

There are a few weapons in the pile where Rivens do what they claim but for the vast majority it's simply a product of numbers that makes the probability very unlikely if not impossible. I was looking earlier. It takes a "God Roll" to get Magnus up to Tombfinger without the free ammo and Magnus isn't completely awful.

Things like Kunai? Psh Auto-Delete.

The Riven system will never work along side an MR progression weapon system unless those weapons have upgrade variants. Simple as that.

[SordidDreams]

5 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

There are a few weapons in the pile where Rivens do what they claim but for the vast majority it's simply a product of numbers that makes the probability very unlikely if not impossible. I was looking earlier. It takes a "God Roll" to get Magnus up to Tombfinger without the free ammo and Magnus isn't completely awful.

So you see any reason why that couldn't be solved by simply tweaking the numbers?

[Xzorn]

5 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

So you see any reason why that couldn't be solved by simply tweaking the numbers?

 

Tweak the numbers on what? The Riven or the gun?

The Riven no. The worse a weapon is the lower the probability of rolling a Riven to push it back into competitive range.

The gun would defeat the purpose of having lowbie weapons. Hence we need far more upgrade variants to those weapons.

There are generally two extremes. 0.55 Disp and 1.55 Disp. In most cases the difficulty in rolling viable stats for either is unreasonable. Ideally we'd want a range of 0.9 - 1.2 Disposition across most weapons but that can't be the case long as some weapons are just awful and the game retains it's heavily exaggerated power creep.

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Xzorn said:

Tweak the numbers on what? The Riven or the gun?

The Riven no. The worse a weapon is the lower the probability of rolling a Riven to push it back into competitive range. 

Yeah, but only because its disposition is too low, so you need an unlikely roll to make it good. Increase the disposition and a mediocre roll will do.

[zoffmode]

"Game is too easy please release harder content or balance the game properly".

Probably same people later "wtf why are you nerfing my OP rivens you are slowing down my farm".

Edited April 4, 2019 by zoffmode

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, trst said:

Believe it or not the system does, in-fact, make weaker weapons better. Not always better than "good" weapons but still better than they were

everything is in comparison with something else - the issues beforehand was a large majority of Weapons without purpose of being used because in the same Slot that it competes in, there are better options and ergo why would you not use one of those.

Weapon Augments, when giving Stats that actually did something useful for the Weapon (not all of them do.....), did a great job of addressing that by giving something targeted for that Weapon.
Rivens not so much because the thing you're looking to use gets a way to increase Damage, but also so does the thing you were originally comparing it to in the first place. it really just offers more stuff to Trade, so people buy more stuff. good business, but just like say, Forma, it also came with a serious negative too.

Edited April 4, 2019 by taiiat

[GSDAkatsuki]

The sniper nerfs are illogical as it's only towards a badly designed Eidolon Hunting. I actually use my Lanka for other content and my riven is specifically utility based +fire rate and -weapon zoom. If they want to nerf the sniper rivens then fix the goddamn snipers first. Make it where the buffs aren't tied to zoom anymore, snipers should be consistent in getting 100% crit rate from the get go, Lanka charge needs to be waaaay faster.

[Xzorn]

43 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Yeah, but only because its disposition is too low, so you need an unlikely roll to make it good. Increase the disposition and a mediocre roll will do.

 

Not exactly. Crap +300% is still 300%Crap.

I mentioned those two Disposition extremes because of the probability to get either a Riven worth using (0.55 Disp) or a Riven which brings the weapon to competitive status (1.55 Disp). They're both equally difficult to get rolls for. The media weapons sitting around 0.9 - 1.3 are ones where just a single good stat will work.

The Magnus I spoke of earlier in this Topic is 1.53 Disp. In order for it to compete with a non-Riven Tombfinger (102k Sustained DPS) I would need a Riven with high end rolls +180% Multishot +140 Crit Dmg +340% Damage with a negative that's not destructive for (109k Sustained DPS) The chances of rolling such a riven are absurd and Tombfinger still has free ammo, double status rates and AoE.

It's not even worth my time to attempt in rolling that Magnus Riven hence the Riven system does not work as stated. A upgrade Variant to Magnus however with better base stats would solved this problem. It would for a lot of weapons.

[Lord_Drod]

7 hours ago, Helch0rn said:

I have a guy in my clan with 450+ Hydrolyst captures who can oneshot the limbs with his operator

so No, rivens are not needed

 

How is this? 

[ExcaliburUmbra]

1 hour ago, Lord_Dckrod said:

How is this? 

Probably Virtuos Forge and Virtuos Melt stacking through Volt Shields to create big radiation damage numbers. But as a disclaimer I’ve never tried it and am only guessing on how they interact.

[Test-995]

I think most important part of that is the void strike stack/unairu wisps.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

Disposition is a stat, so if you nerf disposition you nerf the weapons stats. The weapon has been nerfed, it no longer has the potential if once had. This is unarguable.

Not going to get into the pros and cons of rivens but the op is just plain wrong

[Nez-Kal]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

Disposition is a stat, so if you nerf disposition you nerf the weapons stats. The weapon has been nerfed, it no longer has the potential if once had. This is unarguable.

Not going to get into the pros and cons of rivens but the op is just plain wrong

...A Riven is a Riven, and a Weapon is a Weapon. I am getting tired of explaining this to folks who keep talking this talk, but will not walk its walk. By your own examples and opinions, pretty much Every Sniper has just been Nerfed, and now we have to hang them all up because of this Nerf and sadly never use them again (Exaggerating). And by that same example the Tonkor has been granted a fantastic Buff, and Players are pouring forth in Droves to take it out into Missions again (Also Exaggerating).

 

For example, by this EXACT SAME LOGIC, any small nerf to Arcane Energize's energy gains is a "Nerf" to ALL WARFRAMES in the game. Because a Rare, Owned by a Small Population of the Player-base item has taken a hit to its Stats, EVERYTHING that item could be equipped has now been "Nerfed" as well. (I mean, 95% of the Player-base would continue to use these Frames with no problems or knowledge of the "Horrific Nerf" that has just happened to their precious Frames....but that's beside the point)

 

(PS: Headed to work now, you might not get a response for half a day or so, sorry)

Edited April 4, 2019 by Tangent-Valley

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

51 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

...A Riven is a Riven, and a Weapon is a Weapon. I am getting tired of explaining this to folks who keep talking this talk, but will not walk its walk. By your own examples and opinions, pretty much Every Sniper has just been Nerfed, and now we have to hang them all up because of this Nerf and sadly never use them again (Exaggerating). And by that same example the Tonkor has been granted a fantastic Buff, and Players are pouring forth in Droves to take it out into Missions again (Also Exaggerating).

 

For example, by this EXACT SAME LOGIC, any small nerf to Arcane Energize's energy gains is a "Nerf" to ALL WARFRAMES in the game. Because a Rare, Owned by a Small Population of the Player-base item has taken a hit to its Stats, EVERYTHING that item could be equipped has now been "Nerfed" as well. (I mean, 95% of the Player-base would continue to use these Frames with no problems or knowledge of the "Horrific Nerf" that has just happened to their precious Frames....but that's beside the point)

 

(PS: Headed to work now, you might not get a response for half a day or so, sorry)

You explanation is pretty nonsensical, that’s why people are not listening, it’s not logical. If all sniper rivens have been nerfed(have they?) then yes, all snipers now have less potential. That is a fact, you cannot deny this and I’m not sure why you are trying? It’s black and white. Their potential maximum output has now decreased, text book definition of a nerf.

Not sure were you are getting that players are saying snipers are now all trash though? You are strawmanning here. Admitting something has been nerfed is not the same as saying it’s now trash.

Just because all players don’t have rivens has no bearing on whether a weapons potential has been decreased or not. You could argue it’s a nerf that has little bearing on a large section of the player base and that’s fine but to say it’s not a nerf at all is inaccurate. This is not a subjective thing, a nerf to a weapons potential is still a nerf, no matter which way you cut it or how many players it affects.

I think we may just have to agree to disagree but have a good day at work regardless.

[Naftal]

Rivens are part of the game and DE must absolutely take their existance into account when balancing weapons.

[SordidDreams]

10 hours ago, Xzorn said:

It's not even worth my time to attempt in rolling that Magnus Riven hence the Riven system does not work as stated. A upgrade Variant to Magnus however with better base stats would solved this problem. It would for a lot of weapons.

Yes, but that defeats the point of the riven system, namely that rivens are supposed to bring weapons up to par, not base stat buffs. Having a vastly more powerful variant of a crappy weapon also introduces a new problem due to the fact that they share the same riven disposition, Sicarus and Gram being prime (heh) examples.The base weapon is crappy and so has a very high disposition, then a vastly better prime is introduced, which is hugely OP due to inheriting the high disposition, then the disposition gets nerfed, upsetting a lot of people. And then you're in a situation where you can't make the disposition high enough to make the base weapon worth using or else you make the prime OP, nor can you make it low enough to bring the prime down to where it's supposed to be or else you make the base completely worthless.

[Naftal]

30 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

 Yes, but that defeats the point of the riven system, namely that rivens are supposed to bring weapons up to par, not base stat buffs. 

But that point of the riven system has never realized itself so there's nothing to defeat.

[SordidDreams]

2 minutes ago, Naftal said:

But that point of the riven system has never realized itself so there's nothing to defeat.

There is. Yes, the riven system has issues, but they need to be fixed so that it becomes better, not circumvented so that it becomes superfluous.

Edited April 4, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Naftal]

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

There is. Yes, the riven system has issues, but they need to be fixed so that it becomes better, not circumvented so that it becomes superfluous.

It has issues which since release which have always made it so that rivens do not bring worse weapons on par with better weapons.

As long as DE don't balance riven dispositions based on the weapon strength instead of popularity or any other arbitrary figure, rivens won't work like that.

If one weapon deals 5x dps than the other, the riven would need to be much better than the difference between 0.5 and 1.5 disposition rivens.

[SordidDreams]

3 minutes ago, Naftal said:

It has issues which since release which have always made it so that rivens do not bring worse weapons on par with better weapons.

As long as DE don't balance riven dispositions based on the weapon strength instead of popularity or any other arbitrary figure, rivens won't work like that. 

If one weapon deals 5x dps than the other, the riven would need to be much better than the difference between 0.5 and 1.5 disposition rivens.

I agree completely. So does DE.

Quote

past Disposition changes have been primarily based on weapon usage stats, where more popular weapons received lower Dispositions, and vice versa. These numbers were adjusted by hand where we deemed appropriate, but players have suggested we should take it one step further - going forward, we have compiled our own internal ranking of weapon power levels, which will be referenced in addition to usage stats to reach our final numbers. As further tweaks bring us closer to “ideal” Disposition numbers, changes should become less drastic, reinforced by our internal rankings providing a solid baseline.

I do agree that there should be a greater range of stats, especially on the high end. Very crappy weapons are still not good enough even with godly rivens. But I get why DE doesn't want to make drastic changes all at once. Give it time, they're moving in the right direction.

Edited April 4, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Enexemander]

I feel the negative reaction is overblown. Lanka's riven got nerfed. I don't even have a riven for mine, and I have no trouble soloing or carrying a pug through Tridolons. The weapon is ideal for this without a riven, nevermind "viable."

That's kind of my issue with this line of thinking. The game does not require having the best of the best weapons. I'd rather have weapon variety rather than having rivens equalize effective DPS on every weapon.

[-Play_]

surreal even, you spend a lot of time farming  kuva,  for developers to change their inventory what have you struggled to have?

Edited April 4, 2019 by -Play_

[BombtailsTheFox]

Honestly, for me Rivens are a way to make a weapon more destructive. But even then, i hardly find any use (probably because i'm not much into rivens).

Yes, the Amprex rivens got nerfed, and my riven would suffer, but on the other hand, some like the Despair, the Ogris or the Penta would receive an improvement. But to be honest, i prefer using a build without a riven, except for some that might pull interest.

Even the Arca Plasmor riven i have, which got a nerf on the disposition, is not much use to me. Not because it got nerfed, but because i prefer to use a build that doesn't involve rivens. And even then, i manage to kill enemies anyway. Yes, it may require a while, but at least its function is still the same.

I understand that many people wants their sniper to destroy every eidolon, and that's ok, but even a good rivenless build can do that. Yes, it may take more time, but its still operative.

The only time when i think "Ok, that weapon requires a riven", is when a weapon is actually weaker, or requires a boost. An example would be the Acrid, which can have a riven that boosts its multishot, toxin damage, projectile speed and/or effect duration.

Also, i don't understand why there's the need to be furious. Two of my rivens are nerfed, but why should i complain with fury and anger?

[Ham_Grenabe]

Most of my rivens took hits - I don't have that many, but several were for guns that had a disposition decrease. It's midly irritating.

[zoffmode]

A lot of my rivens took hits and I don't mind. A good amount got buffed too, which is really nice. Only I wish it actually showed ingame before and after changes after dispo modifications. I take screenshots of my rivens, but it's still a huge bother.

As for rivens not making "crap" weapons strong enough, I highly disagree. They definitely reach the level of good from my experience. Just maybe not godly level... BUT think about it... to reach godly levels you need to buy super expensive riven of a strong and meta weapon... and it'll get nerfed in 3 months (and then once again in 3 months) and you'll cry on forums about it. You really gotta learn how to hedge your bets.

Edited April 4, 2019 by zoffmode