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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Cannot Cast in the Air: Friend or Foe?

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Wow. Was thinking about this earlier after wanting to cast Avalanche while bullet jumping into a crowd. Gonna be awesome. 

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I don't see why you'd even ask, this is excellent and should have been implemented already.

These kind of restrictions just hinder gameplay like Stamina did back in the day. Good change.

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I'll certainly join the chorus of "this is awesome"! Also it would be really cool if there was certain animation tweaks for in air cast. Such as with the Rhino cast for example. Imagine the in air cast and instead of the actual stomp, he crashes to the ground fist first and does the superhero landing pose as he hits the ground. I realize this would involve custom animations and what not, but the thought of Rhinos flying through the air for superhero landings just makes me and Deadpool smile.

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Yes!!! So much yes!!!!

Stuff like link being restricted has always sucked. I think volt was restricted for a while too on discharge, but IIRC that's gone now.

As for stuff like quake, stomp, I think applying a directional "slam" into the cast is a very elegant solution. It looks great for rhino. For something like quake, there might be some animation work needed to make it look smooth (zooming to the ground with your hands out would look more like banshee fell off a bike than is casting an ability, but that's just my opinion, and a minor issue at best)

 

10/10 support this

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5 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

Yes!!! So much yes!!!!

Stuff like link being restricted has always sucked. I think volt was restricted for a while too on discharge, but IIRC that's gone now.

As for stuff like quake, stomp, I think applying a directional "slam" into the cast is a very elegant solution. It looks great for rhino. For something like quake, there might be some animation work needed to make it look smooth (zooming to the ground with your hands out would look more like banshee fell off a bike than is casting an ability, but that's just my opinion, and a minor issue at best)

 

10/10 support this

That's pretty much my opinion as well. Little clunky but I'm sure that'll get ironed out

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Yes please. Would help alot with certain frames and bring some more consistancy to the table.

Why can Oberon use #4 in the air while Mag cant? Why does Frost need to be grounded to cause an avalanche?

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Posted (edited)

Yes, BUT please, make as much abilities a possible use the AIERIAL POSE for the legs, just like ONE HANDED abilities, because those ground poses just flying in the air look a bit silly.

If i could elaborate further, having more abilities freed from static poses would be awesome, it doesn't have to allow the warframe to keep sprinting or use parkour, but something like Harrow's Penance could let the player have the regular slow walk from relays or Mesa's Peacemaker during it's animation.

Edited by Apocryphos13

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1 hour ago, ShadowMajick said:

I'll certainly join the chorus of "this is awesome"! Also it would be really cool if there was certain animation tweaks for in air cast. Such as with the Rhino cast for example. Imagine the in air cast and instead of the actual stomp, he crashes to the ground fist first and does the superhero landing pose as he hits the ground. I realize this would involve custom animations and what not, but the thought of Rhinos flying through the air for superhero landings just makes me and Deadpool smile.

You had me at superhero landing pose

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Warframes of note in relation to this topic:

Excaliber:

-radial javelin: this ability can currently be cast in the air but I believe that it would make much more sense that it is part ground slam like the rhino stomp.

Mag:(sorry Shy)

-Crush: in its current form it can only be cast on the ground. which makes sense, but what purpose would it have in the air? my suggestion is to have all of Mag's momentum stop while in the air. 

Ember:

-Fire Blast: I think it would benefit with the ground slam maybe with longer range as a reward?

-World on Fire: initially I thought maybe just ground slam like the others but what if instead, if cast in the air, it rains the fire from above. DEATH FROM ABOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Chroma:

-Effigy: longer range the high in the air it is.

 

Other notes: will this change punish players for using their abilities on the ground? Can this ground slam version of these abilities be directional like Rhino's stomp only affecting the enemies in front of him after the slam? 

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I really like the improvements to mobility, but I have one... just one... frame that I need to ask some questions about.

With every other frame that has a ground-only cast getting an in-air cast, can we please address the Hover on Zephyr? Why in the 9 rings of RNGesus does Zephyr, the lightweight, gliding, jetting-through-the-air warframe, have to squat on the ground, where she's vulnerable, for 3 full seconds, in order to get a non-duration-based Hover that contributes absolutely nothing to her mobility?

Please reduce the cast to a simple half-second hold on ground, while mobile so that we can position better (two-handed animation cast if you'd like to keep it balanced there), and a half-second hold in the air too, so that we can cancel out all that momentum from Tailwind. Give it a base Duration we can mod for, like we mod her other abilities for Duration, so that we know when we're going to fall down, instead of this arbitrary 'duration is based on how long you charged' function.

Zephyr, the mobile air caster, gets functional mobility from a hover, not because she wants to hold still, but because she wants to brake while going fast.

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I keep telling everyone that Trinity can not go end-game for long without support and a hell of a lot of pushing her uphill. She's a horrible solo Warframe and a Armor Score of 15 is just way, way too low and her casting speed for three of her abilities is positively atrocious!

Her first ability is a bunch of worthless. She (currently) can't cast her first/second/third in air or on multiple targets! Her third has one of the longest cast times in the game coming close to a set up time of 3 seconds with no invincibility period like Iron Skin or Gara's glass or Nehza's Halo (I can't remember the ability names of Warframes).

Trinity's passive is super duper trash. Her Passive is about the second worst in the game behind Banshee's (or tied with for worst). It has no solo player benefits when using a sentinel but only using a Pet/Moa.

Worthless now that Amalgam Shotgun Spazz is a thing. It does what Trinity's passive does but nearly doubles the reviving speed bonus. Extra distance for reviving? Does anyone even notics a major difference? Don't people use mainly their Operator to revive in many cases?

How is it that no one seems to understand that Trinity is a really bad healer?

One of her EV builds cripples her survivability and was only used mainly for raids which are gone now! There is little use for it outside of giving out energy. Other Warframes can grant energy buffs to a lesser degree but do have other benefits and offensive abilities to them for crowd control and such.

Trinity is Warframe's worst healer by far hands down. A split purpose Warframe is better than a dedicated Trinity due to enemy pop. control.

Compared to Oberon she is a bit of a dirty joke. she cannot cure status effects or has a Phoenix Renewal type ability. Trinity is 'Dr. Warframe' . . . but a doctor that can't stop you from bleeding, wow.

If Trinity was the only Doctor available in a hospital to save your life from internal hemorrhaging, your surviving family members would be suing for malpractice.

She cannot drop Health orb pickups stock she needs an augment. No major offensive abilities (link can scale to enemy damage but the goal of the game is to not get hit) aside from her second with an EV build but her Durability is linked to, well, Link and reducing the duration of Link spells doom at levels 100+ with bleed and toxic procs as shields and overshields don't do anything whatsoever to stop these procs.

Mag can grant overshields stock, Trinity needs an augment to do so. Same thing with other Warframes that can do this.

Gara can grant a whopping 90% damage reduction buff! Trinity tops out at 75%?

Harrow Can grant a total 100% damage resistance for a period of time along with a nice juicy Crit Chance buff! Which would you rather have? A 50% Crit Chance buff along with damage immunity? Or 75% damage reduction and being healed a bit? Both have the same range.

Hildryn can cure status effects and grant overshields stock! She isn't even a dedicated healer and removing status effects puts her in a higher bracket than Trinity! Where's the outrage?

There are more examples of this but these are just from the top of my head. Saying her durability can be increased with Adaptation and is just as good as other Warframes I say: "NO bad!" and I'd spritz you with water. Base stats are EVERYTHING.

Trinity's 3rd ability is worthless in so far as damage goes after you removed self damage from being able to be used with it. It's an extremely horrible damage reduction buff as well. You need enemies to be close enough to you to receive less damage which is counter to what the game is: shoot at every thing that moves (yes, I am on safari).

I have been saying this for a couple years now that she needs an overhaul and another look. She is also the only OG Warframe without a 4th Augment of any kind. No major argument against this, but even Mag's Pull has an augment no matter how bad said augment actually is.

On the subject of Mag, please take another look at her first Augment and consider changing it. Instead of "Greedy Pull" call it "Polarity Shift" or "Reverse Polarity" (something like that) and make her first ability 'push' instead of pull. It interested me that as a clearly Magnetic Warframe Mag cannot do what actual, real magnets do.

To close, I absolutely LOVE Trinity. I really do, but she just cannot enter the places I tread without other players. I am very passionate about Trinity and feel that she is being neglected maliciously. My friends often joke that "the creator of Trinity must've been fired and no one liked them, so they quash Trinity just because they don't like them lol" and sometimes Ibfeel like that might actually be the case.

No Warframe should be hindered or punished in Solo play. Trinity has been languishing for awhile now and I would gamble that her play time is towards the bottom of the list even if she was given away for free on Twitch. There is a reason she is not used. Please investigate and rework Trinity so she is relevant in today's Warframe build. She keeps getting dusted by newer Warframes with better healing and defensive bonuses.

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16 minutes ago, (PS4)Multi-Melta said:

I keep telling everyone that Trinity can not go end-game for long without support and a hell of a lot of pushing her uphill. She's a horrible solo Warframe and a Armor Score of 15 is just way, way too low and her casting speed for three of her abilities is positively atrocious

She cannot drop Health orb pickups stock she needs an augment. No major offensive abilities (link can scale to enemy damage but the goal of the game is to not get hit) aside from her second with an EV build but her Durability is linked to, well, Link and reducing the duration of Link spells doom at levels 100+ with bleed and toxic procs as shields and overshields don't do anything whatsoever to stop these procs.

Gara can grant a whopping 90% damage reduction buff! Trinity tops out at 75%?

There are more examples of this but these are just from the top of my head. Saying her durability can be increased with Adaptation and is just as good as other Warframes I say: "NO bad!" and I'd spritz you with water. Base stats are EVERYTHING.

Trinity's 3rd ability is worthless in so far as damage goes after you removed self damage from being able to be used with it. It's an extremely horrible damage reduction buff as well. You need enemies to be close enough to you to receive less damage which is counter to what the game is: shoot at every thing that moves (yes, I am on safari).

To close, I absolutely LOVE Trinity. I really do, but she just cannot enter the places I tread without other players. I am very passionate about Trinity and feel that she is being neglected maliciously. My friends often joke that "the creator of Trinity must've been fired and no one liked them, so they quash Trinity just because they don't like them lol" and sometimes Ibfeel like that might actually be the case.

 

Wow... so much wrong, and so many words. Thanks for making this take so long...

  • She can go end game, solo or as a team member. Armour is not relevant for her. 75% damage reduction with 75% on top of that makes her take under 7% damage. Plus adaptation if you use it. That's better than basically any amount of armour.
  • You don't need health orbs when you can just insta-heal everyone. 
    • Damage isn't needed on every frame. 
    • EV is one of the most powerful dmg abilities in super late game (ie 100+ wave defenses), so there is that if you really want it
  • If you want tankiness, don't have an EV build. If you're bringing EV to late game, rely on defensive teammates helping you out and yeah, reviving occasionally. Otherwise bring a bless/link build. Oh yeah and since you talk so much about solo, EV is dumb for that. I run a negative efficiency link+bless build and don't have energy issues. Plus you can just cast ev and kill the target and boom, energy. 
  • See first point about dmg reduction stacking of link + bless. It's better. Especially cause status immunity
  • You don't need enemies to be close. It's called range mods. I do solo and group survivals, defense, etc with link+bless. In the VERY rare cases I am not linked to stuff, it's cause nothing is close enough to attack cause everything is dead. So you don't need that extra dmg reduction anyways

So either you're horrible at making builds, or playing, or both. But I doubt you are good at both, and love trin. Cause there's no way you could justify your points if that was the case. 

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I have found myself recently playing with Loki(Prime and Norm) a lot more than usual, and his 4, Irradiating Disarm(?is that the name or augment) cannot be cast in air. I constantly get the "cannot do that" sound, when I forget, bullet jump, go invis and then go for his 4 Disarm.

With his augment affecting his 4, I feel like this would cover a better radius, with a well rounded range build of course, to cast in mid air. Also I think I tried this and got the "you can't do that" sound when while aim gliding or bullet jumping and aimed down to put my duplicate on the ground.

That's all I can think of for now, I'm sure someone has brought up Queen Saryn. And that Rhino vid, all the yaaaaaaaas'

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Decoupling the lower body from abilities that don't need it sounds like a great step forward.Please, continue 😄

 

A slightly more advanced bit could be to add new animations based on whether a frame is in midair, ground, wall-clinging or on a zipline (where applicable), potentially with slightly different mechanic.

The Rhino Stomp could turn into a double fist slam into the ground as he descends quickly? The presented descend-then-stomp is okay, but may be a bit awkward, as he already had more force from descending than him landing softly, then raising his leg.

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1 hour ago, tarfeef101 said:

Wow... so much wrong, and so many words. Thanks for making this take so long...

  • She can go end game, solo or as a team member. Armour is not relevant for her. 75% damage reduction with 75% on top of that makes her take under 7% damage. Plus adaptation if you use it. That's better than basically any amount of armour.
  • You don't need health orbs when you can just insta-heal everyone. 
    • Damage isn't needed on every frame. 
    • EV is one of the most powerful dmg abilities in super late game (ie 100+ wave defenses), so there is that if you really want it
  • If you want tankiness, don't have an EV build. If you're bringing EV to late game, rely on defensive teammates helping you out and yeah, reviving occasionally. Otherwise bring a bless/link build. Oh yeah and since you talk so much about solo, EV is dumb for that. I run a negative efficiency link+bless build and don't have energy issues. Plus you can just cast ev and kill the target and boom, energy. 
  • See first point about dmg reduction stacking of link + bless. It's better. Especially cause status immunity
  • You don't need enemies to be close. It's called range mods. I do solo and group survivals, defense, etc with link+bless. In the VERY rare cases I am not linked to stuff, it's cause nothing is close enough to attack cause everything is dead. So you don't need that extra dmg reduction anyways

So either you're horrible at making builds, or playing, or both. But I doubt you are good at both, and love trin. Cause there's no way you could justify your points if that was the case. 

Adaptation is a band-aid, not a solution. Nothing you've said here discounts the fact that what Trinity does, other Warframes do better. I never made the argument of using an EV build in Solo, and you passed over her horrible passive and long casting times. No invincibility period on Link is a death sentence on higher levels.

Her passive a 'quicker' healing time (while using the Warframe not the operator) of 3 seconds as opposed to 4 is laughable and healing 'distance' is a junk concept. Enemies will shoot you while you revive and there is not enough range for reviving that will remove you far enough from gunfire.

I don't care how dodgy you are Link will run out eventually and it isn't recastable as say, Mesmer Skin and no amount of Adaptation will save you. Adaptation runs on the basis that you can take damage in the first place and when it runs out the next hit will be full strength and you will implode. Using a mix of Rolling Guard and Adaptation are not, nor ever will be, a solution. 

Adding mods does not change the fact that Trinity is required to remain stationary to cast three of her abilities and her casting times remain some of the longest in the game for a non-chargable ability. Her first ability is nigh useless. It's good in a couple situations, but what it is good at isn't healing but trapping Synthesis targets and Kavats, a discounted Vauban 3. Enabling Link to be cast while in the air is a step in the right direction, but again, claiming 'Adaptation is the best! The bee's knees!' is as good as a pitch from a snake oil salesman. It has its limits as with every other mitigation mod.

Adaptation can be slotted into every Warframe and is not exclusive, thus removes the point of 'Just use Adaptation!' because it can be used on *every* Warframe.

Oberon is objectively a better healer choice overall. His passive is better when it boils to solo play and Phoenix Renewal outright removes the chore of reviving someone entirely. Hallowed Ground outright purges status effects entirely and is a great CC ability. There is no need for Oberon to be near any enemies to benefit from Phoenix Renewal or Hallowed Ground.

The point I am making is that Trinity has fallen behind drastically. She is no longer the best healer in the game. Other Warframes do what she can do but with various degrees and points above her, without the mindboggling need to keep an eye on a death timer the entire mission. Warframes like Gara, Oberon, Harrow, Hildryn have no need as great to even use Adaptation to begin with which is why Adaptation is only a temporary solution to a deeper problem.

Trinity needs help. It isn't enough to point out all the flaws within her kit, but I must battle against those who think 'Trinity is just fine!' without coming off as absolutely psychotic.

Warframes fill various specific rolls and no amount of saying Trinity is fine will take away that she can't heal Status effects, her 1 is bad, her casting speed is snail slow, her passive is a joke, her 3 was nerfed, she can't give overshields as standard, she doesn't drop health orbs standard and Oberon can take an entire team further in the most difficult game modes as the team's healer and doubles as a CC and other Warframes fill her roll with better degrees of Success.

Also, I would also add that Oberon heals as well as drops health orbs. By your logic he has no need to drop health orbs at all.

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11 minutes ago, (PS4)Multi-Melta said:

Adaptation is a band-aid, not a solution. Nothing you've said here discounts the fact that what Trinity does, other Warframes do better. I never made the argument of using an EV build in Solo, and you passed over her horrible passive and long casting times. No invincibility period on Link is a death sentence on higher levels.

Her passive a 'quicker' healing time (while using the Warframe not the operator) of 3 seconds as opposed to 4 is laughable and healing 'distance' is a junk concept. Enemies will shoot you while you revive and there is not enough range for reviving that will remove you far enough from gunfire.

I don't care how dodgy you are Link will run out eventually and it isn't recastable as say, Mesmer Skin and no amount of Adaptation will save you. Adaptation runs on the basis that you can take damage in the first place and when it runs out the next hit will be full strength and you will implode. Using a mix of Rolling Guard and Adaptation are not, nor ever will be, a solution. 

Adding mods does not change the fact that Trinity is required to remain stationary to cast three of her abilities and her casting times remain some of the longest in the game for a non-chargable ability. Her first ability is nigh useless. It's good in a couple situations, but what it is good at isn't healing but trapping Synthesis targets and Kavats, a discounted Vauban 3. Enabling Link to be cast while in the air is a step in the right direction, but again, claiming 'Adaptation is the best! The bee's knees!' is as good as a pitch from a snake oil salesman. It has its limits as with every other mitigation mod.

Adaptation can be slotted into every Warframe and is not exclusive, thus removes the point of 'Just use Adaptation!' because it can be used on *every* Warframe.

Oberon is objectively a better healer choice overall. His passive is better when it boils to solo play and Phoenix Renewal outright removes the chore of reviving someone entirely. Hallowed Ground outright purges status effects entirely and is a great CC ability. There is no need for Oberon to be near any enemies to benefit from Phoenix Renewal or Hallowed Ground.

The point I am making is that Trinity has fallen behind drastically. She is no longer the best healer in the game. Other Warframes do what she can do but with various degrees and points above her, without the mindboggling need to keep an eye on a death timer the entire mission. Warframes like Gara, Oberon, Harrow, Hildryn have no need as great to even use Adaptation to begin with which is why Adaptation is only a temporary solution to a deeper problem.

Trinity needs help. It isn't enough to point out all the flaws within her kit, but I must battle against those who think 'Trinity is just fine!' without coming off as absolutely psychotic.

Warframes fill various specific rolls and no amount of saying Trinity is fine will take away that she can't heal Status effects, her 1 is bad, her casting speed is snail slow, her passive is a joke, her 3 was nerfed, she can't give overshields as standard, she doesn't drop health orbs standard and Oberon can take an entire team further in the most difficult game modes as the team's healer and doubles as a CC and other Warframes fill her roll with better degrees of Success.

Also, I would also add that Oberon heals as well as drops health orbs. By your logic he has no need to drop health orbs at all.

Okay.... Dude. Stop focusing on adaptation. I never even said to use it. My build I use personally doesn't, made it long before that mod existed. 

What long casting times?? Nothing takes 3s like you said. Link is a bit longer than I'd like, yeah, but not horrid. I'd prefer longer duration than shorter cast times, if anything. Make it equitable between link + bless. That'd be really nice.

I didn't address the passive for a reason. I didn't have an issue with your point, or at least didn't care to bicker about it. I will not address any more things I didn't respond to because either I agree or don't care enough to voice my disagreement.

Link isn't "as recastable" as something else. lol. you brought up gara a multitude of times now. She also cannot recast until her duration runs out. yes, she can cast from the air, but this post is literally about fixing that. and unlike her, SHE STILL GETS 75% DAMAGE REDUCTION FROM BLESSING

Stationary comments: nobody cares about well of life, ev takes like no time, link is annoying, bless is not long or momentum destructive. so you're kinda just wrong again.

MY GOD I DIDN'T SAY YOU MUST USE ADAPTATION LEARN TO F**************NG READ

Oberon's passive is better? sure. are either good enough to matter? not really. 
Oberon has pheonix renewal and magic carpets? Yep, totally fair. but he doesn't have EV, and the same burst healing potential. in terms of damage mitigation, they're both good. healing over time passively, oberon is better. "oh S#&$ i need a heal pls" trin is queen. oberon does have status and cc, yes. but he can't be an energy battery. trin can. and yes, even on a bless build. it's called shooting the enemy. not hard in a game about shooting your enemies.

Lol so many frames have timers you gotta watch to stay alive. gara, mesa, chroma (at higher levels when base tankiness is not enough), zephyr, the list goes on and on... your point about that is just foolish. and again, trin is BETTER in these cases because she has 2 timers, one of which IS recastable before it runs out

her 1 is bad. yes. so are many others. i don't care about that because she has 3 great abilities, but if DE ever wants to make all 1s useful, then sure, make hers good too
she cannot heal status on teammates. yeah an augment for say, blessing to do that would be great. 10/10 agree
her casting speed is not that slow. you're super exaggerating. the only one that really irks me is link, and still that's mostly just the no in air restriction
passive is fine, there are plenty worse and few notably better. change it if you want, idc really. 
her 3 was nerfed, sure, but it is still effective and useful
she can't give overshields w/o an augment, but gives em really well with it. and nobody cares about orbs when you have instant team heal to 100%. that's such a dumb argument, i can't even fathom why you're trying to make it. "oh no the vectis prime can't even shoot bullets that do 5 dmg" yeah cause it can shoot ones that do 350.

Again, you're ignoring that she can insta heal anyone to 100%, which is something nobody else can do, and also HAS UNLIMITED ENERGY. That alone makes her so freaking powerful, you can't just ignore that fact.


I'm not wasting my time to reply to you again. If you can't understand these things, you're beyond help and I have better things to do than yell at a wall.

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YES-YES-YES!! Finally my Trinity could Link in-air, I've waited it for 3 years playing Trinity

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i always wanted for rhino to use radial slam(his old 3 which worked) in air instead of stomp

as seen in the old trailer

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I always dreamt about how cool it would be if casting skills would be situational based.

Every skill could be casted while jumping, sliding, wall running, crouching affecting aspects of the skill itself.. for example:- if you are sliding and casting ground stomp the area of effect would be in V shape in front of rhino thrushing the opponent's backwards or making em fly back. If you are crouching and casting maybe we could make all the enemies around rhino knocked down and cripple them and if you are jumping and casting the more higher you are the greater damage it will deal. It would look cool and make each skill very interesting. Ofcourse not all skills could be implemented but still a thought i wanted to share. And definitely will bring huge workload on animation team since all of this will require specific animations to make it look believable.

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im kinda tired of the power creeping in this game and this sounds like more of it, why dont you look at the boring part of stomp and sound quake instead of making it more trivial to use

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On 2019-04-03 at 11:45 PM, [DE]Bear said:

So, enter the Aimed Ground Slam:

It looks kinda awkward since Rhino drops to the ground and then plays normal stomp animation. The problem here is that he plays it already on the ground while standing on 1 leg as usual. But he just SLAMMED into the ground with that leg! So, maybe, it would make more sense to make unique unimation for aimed ground slam to make Rhino perform stomp right when he slams into the ground instead of playing default animation when he just dropped from far higher than he ever rises his leg to perform this stomp?

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Posted (edited)

...liking what I've seen and read mostly!  Rhino...humm?

Edited by Bladereap3r

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