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[DE]Rebecca

Discord, Chat, GOTL and more - updates & conclusions!

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2 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Pretty sure there will be no 'bad ticks' as you say. The Honor System will likely function how the upvote/like system on the forums works; you give an upvote if they do something you like, play well, help you out, and nothing if they don't.

Basically there won't be a way for it to be abused to 'downvote someone to oblivion' or for people to torch & pitchfork against folks in the community. DE's stance on player complaints has always been very clear: if you have a problem with how a player is conducting themselves and you believe they are violating the rules, report it (and let DE staff issue necessary punishments), put them on your ignore list, and move on.

I am glad to see that actually addressed. I have no problems with people in general, I just did not want to see a system designed around helping have an opening for grief due to an easily "skipped over" detail, so to speak. I make rather extensive use of the ignore list in game whenever I do have a problem with specific players. So thanks, letter for replying to my post and clarifying a bit.

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Now the real question is what will happen to the warframe server owned by the infamous tobiah?

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4 minutes ago, Julian_Skies said:

I'm s fan of the language used here. Recently there have been cases of effectively mob rule getting employees fired in other companies simply because the players were raging, not because they were right and DE wants to make entirely sure they're not going to let that fly over here, the criticisms were right, they agreed, but don't think that just because you were right you can start bullying then around.

Why did they have to use this wording? Because the way players behaved here was very similar to how they behaved in the cases in other companies. Except they weren't right those other cases.

That's why I like the wording, we get a pass for acting like rabid hounds because it was the one time it needed to happen. But that's the ONE time out can be allowed to happen. 

I strongly disagree. Nobody was acting "like rabid hounds," people are passionate about the game and the community around it. Being loud is often the only way to see change happen, as was the case here. Certain in-game chat moderators had been a known issue for years before people finally got loud enough that DE couldn't keep ignoring it. These changes could have happened years ago, but it took the figurative torches and pitchforks to make it finally happen.  Nobody is asking for mob rule to make all the decisions, people just want to be heard without having to get loud.

People aren't "raging" or "acting like rabid hounds" because they see something wrong happening, and want to see things changed for the better, to say otherwise is disingenuous at best.

It's important for DE to be able to take criticism, and they've shown repeatedly that they have troubles with that. The issue being brought up was initially ignored, and instead decried as "personal attacks" by quite a few members of staff. Even now that things have been positively changed, they still show an attitude of "we were never in the wrong." It doesn't come off as "we want to avoid problems where we anger the community," it just comes off as unnecessarily defensive.

Nobody is trying to attack or bully DE, I just want to see us be able to have open, honest discussions with them. I want them to be able to be better, to see fair and constructive criticism and be able to say "you're right, we can do better, and here's what we're going to do now" instead of "stop personally attacking us," when that was never what was happening.

Obviously the community isn't always right. Sometimes people get riled up about things that don't matter. But when they're right, when change needs to happen, and does happen, it doesn't do any good for anyone to have DE downplay the community, their concerns, their feelings, or their impact in an effort for DE to feel like they "didn't lose."

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I think "Nezha is a trap" is only a meme because people are not allowed to say it. I would have blown over if it wasn't bannable.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Kethus said:

I think "Nezha is a trap" is only a meme because people are not allowed to say it. I would have blown over if it wasn't bannable.

That's definitely a part of it - think the Streisand effect, but it's more nuanced than that. Letting certain things just happen and then "fade out" is possible to interpret as complicit support for a concept. If DE wishes to have a stance of welcome and inclusive chat, and they decide that concept is not compatible, they have no choice but to act in that fashion. Likewise, there is a hypocritical tension inherent in stronger enforcement: the community believes DE missed the mark or wasn't paying attention and thus endorsed or at least permitted unacceptable behavior to happen, but the community also simultaneously wants DE to be highly responsive to the rules-lawyering folks who want to debate them about their chat in their game.

Enforcement has almost no upside - practically speaking, the internet gives a megaphone to every single voice. Youtube videos slapping DE in the face, righteous posts on Reddit and these forums, and even Twitter replies to random update posts about unrelated topics actively steal the energy from the DE staff.

"But just fix it by being more transparent and do what we want!"

So they are.

But now people are nitpicking DE's feelings and wording and not validating their point of view, while simultaneously demanding their points of view be validated.

It is a type of hell to be in this adversarial situation. Facebook or Twitter has the same struggles.

Edited by Rydia
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Sorry @Rydia, could you use simpler English? Did you mean that by not banning the phrase they'd be encouraging more vulgar behaviour in the chat since there will not be punishment? The meaning of the words after the first paragraph also escapes me, but I have the feeling that they were no longer directed at me, right?

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Great job to most of the volunteers in the program! I'm sure the community appreciates all your hard work.

I'm glad to see a new Discord too. 

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"Communities are public - and we fault no one for wanting information about what they participate in. There's a handful of readers out there who will confuse a program's retirement and replacement with a player-driven system as a mob-justice victory. For these people, facts - such as retirement conversations internally predating any witch-hunts - do not matter. Regardless of what conclusions you draw - do not harass anyone as a result of a good change for the community."

This is not about a mob justice victory, the evidence is there, the proof is there, the countless times people have said what was really happening with this corrupt system and how the Guides of Lotus abused their privilege to push their own bias against the community is there too, everything backed up. Getting rid of this system was the right decision because this cannot continue anymore. 

Be careful with what you do next and please this time don't go again ignoring the community for 4 years.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Tal-Duran:

Now the real question is what will happen to the warframe server owned by the infamous tobiah?

Well as they never claim to be affiliated with DE they can keep their server up. I just think they should cut all links to it.

It's a fanserver after all. Nothing more, nothing less.

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19 minutes ago, Kethus said:

Sorry @Rydia, could you use simpler English? Did you mean that by not banning the phrase they'd be encouraging more vulgar behaviour in the chat since there will not be punishment? The meaning of the words after the first paragraph also escapes me, but I have the feeling that they were no longer directed at me, right?

Yeah, definitely nothing directed at you. I was feeling a bit philosophical but basically my point was this: it's hard to be really communicative and transparent on the internet when you want to run stuff in a certain way other people disagree with, because there will ALWAYS be someone who thinks you're wrong and is really good at telling everyone else that.

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This is a good step in the right direction, I was truly afraid it all fell on deaf ears, but seeing the GOTL put to rest is a good thing.  While it was made with the purest intentions, it, for some, became an elite exclusive club.  I have had a few very uncomfortable encounters with certain individuals who lashed out at at me harshly for asking about how to join.  For a program based on merit, allowing newer players to thank help directly is a massive improvement than an arbitrary fraternal order.

The discord is huge too, allowing another chat room to masquerade as the official place to speak, once again started off innocent, but once that power was solidified and harness was abused to the extreme.  It is an immensely wise choice to set the stage for your own words to be put on display.

Finally, I feel that setting up an automated message similar to the trade chat's that notifies you what you were banned for and how long.  Not to cater to idiots online, but once again because you are professionals, and transparency is crucial to discipline.  In the least it should lessen support tickets from chat ban spam, at its greatest, it will actively display the things that will get your speaking privileges revoked and provide immediate feedback on proper behavior.

 

-Danjal777  

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Out of curiosity, what will happen to the GOTL armour?

Suspect it will be part of the endorsement program, where you get rewarded for actively helping or having good sportsmanship, might be something like the Honor system in League of Legend, with honor ranks and what not. the rest seems quite promising and really looking forward to it.

Edited by Showerwalker

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Anyone spamming ‘Nezha is a trap’ or other permutations of spam and then decree victimhood should not be surprised when we don't reverse suspensions.

ok but just to make sure you are banning this when it's spam and not just blacklisting the word trap or other such words that, while could, but for some rarely do, have negative connotations are also part of normal speech?

also i've heard some rumors and seen a couple deleted messages but i swear to god "owo" better not actually be a blacklisted word now.

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I still cannot mention the full name of an Actor, in a Relay chat, who starred in a show named after himself, and had a co-star named Mary Tyler Moore. Also was in the first "Night at the Museum" movie as a villain.  I got a one week chat suspension. But obvious vulgar words that start with F, S, and A are perfectly acceptable

so, the idea "We will be improving Kickbot’s responsiveness and informative nature if kicks occur, "  Seems way overdue
 

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Dem. That second example about the chicken is a gem. Sad it can't be used more often. Still, it's good to know da rules.

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5 часов назад, [DE]Rebecca сказал:

To be extremely clear: our in-game chat is a privilege, not a right.

I guess that settles it then.

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It is a really really bad game, where we have to guess which words are ok, and can only find out what words are bad AFTER they are used.  Some instances these "magic" words will activate a 1 week chat suspension, instead of deletion of comment, or a temporary kick and purge of the comment

I fail to see, unless it is a direct threat to someone, how using a single word, merits a 7 day chat suspension

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While I do appreciate some of these changes and the effort required to implement them, I feel compelled to question some of the wording choices in the OP.

Especially when considered in light of the recent Schreier Report, I have to wonder what the community's future relationship with DE will look like. Having said that, I want to be optimistic and hope for the best outcomes of all these initiatives.

If in-game chat is indeed seen as "a privilege, not a right" then I think I will continue my policy of avoiding all the moderated chat channels.

Consider it checking my privilege.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Creating a system where helping a noob, having good advice, or being a kick-ass Frost can be acknowledged by your fellow Tenno is a path we want to go down. We will have an endorsements feature that allows players to acknowledge fellow Tenno for their honor and actions in-game.

I'm sorry but I don't see where this helps solve the problem that the Guides of the Lotus aimed to solve.

It looks like it has been replaced by a system of greed instead of love. The Guides didn't do the job for accolades, they did it purely to help their fellow Tenno, and this system seems to promote "farming deeds" for personal gain. On top of that, it doesn't solve any visibility problems, making it so it will still be hard, if not harder, to find someone that can help you. On this path, it looks like the legacy is being torn apart by a system that doesn't even embody the spirit of the previous system.

Coming from someone who would have loved to be part of the program, this new system does nothing to help me get to the people I want to help. I know it's still in the works, but the focus looks to be on the wrong path.

Edited by Ovakyn
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Many players many have or many not have understood what the Role of the GOTL was.  But, to me - and many others - it was to play along side of other wonderful Warframe players.  I looked forward to everyday - to help others in and outside this great game.  No words can express how amazing it was to be GOTL and be someone to Guide a Fellow Tenno in Need.  ---People may have looked down at us at times because of our Mantle ---but to me it was not about the Sigil or Armor - but the Hope and Love DE has for it's Community.  The GOTL's were created for everyone.

I look forward to helping out of players ---everyone here matters.  ---I will always be here to help and Guide in Field.

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glad the guides program is being retired, community does a better job on its own.

Not sure I like the sound of an endorsement program, I can see that getting elitist and toxic quick, but its too early to tell.

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