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[DE]Rebecca

Discord, Chat, GOTL and more - updates & conclusions!

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On 2019-04-05 at 10:15 AM, Loza03 said:

Out of curiosity, what will happen to the GOTL armour?

IMO it should be posted on the market just like every other set of armor in the game.

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On 2019-04-05 at 10:20 PM, ChillyWilly said:

Would the GoTL armor be a relic of the past GoTL? or this new System would give people the GoTL Armor?

"Relic of the Past" $1.99 Special Armory DLC when

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Posted (edited)

Disclaimer: I have Dypsraxia so please try to understand that I mean this with the best intentions for the heath of the game and community within.

A single instance of "Nezha is a Trap" is a meme and shouldn't even be a block able offence anyway. Spamming is repeated content so calling a meme spam is flawed, unless the user is constantly posting the same message over and over. There have also been talk about people with anti-feminist views being hit. What again if true shouldn't be the preview of a chat filter. Unless it falls under user harassment e.g. a person was making fun of the person/user because of a political viewpoint. As anti-feminism is a topic that is discussed from time in gaming communities it seems extreme to include this in a chat filter. It be more logical to say No Politics in Region Chat, if you want to not be biased to one side. What would be a more acceptable rule. The tone of moderation decisions seems a bit aggressive, dismissive of valid criticism from users and mean.

This system comes off more that DE has it's own political echo chamber and staff are shutting down outsiders, e.g. dissenting voices and people having fun (jokes/banter). What is interesting because of a "youtube" video DE conflated personal attacks to "criticism with supported evidence". including the reaction that DE Staff where not happy when a Warframe Partner agreed there was issues. (Context being that, the WFP should have been on DE side regardless and had stepped outside the echo chamber and therefore committed a sin against DE.) What let's just say isn't good for the health of the game/community in the long run. As you appear to be persecuting one part of your community for idealogical reasons, while in (hopefully the past) enabling others (to harass, bully, threaten, ban, etc).

Side Note: Even if the ToS has a "we can ban/restrict access to the service for any reason" statement, the ACT of enforcing that position is yeah...things would escalate quickly in that case.

The main reasons is it reduces the desire to involve oneself in region chat and making friends if you randomly hit the minefield because you said something [not politically correct] even if it is scientifically and factually correct. The WORSE aspect of this is not knowing what IS and isn't crossing the line. An it makes it even less likely I want talk in region chat or to support the game with buying Prime Access Packs.

I understand that having a system to deal with bad actors while being fair to normal players is a difficult technological challenge. Including the concept of it's a "privilege" not "rights" to chat.

Edited by (PS4)Wildoutlaw7
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52 minutes ago, (PS4)Wildoutlaw7 said:

A single instance of "Nezha is a Trap" is a meme and shouldn't even be a block able offence anyway.

I'm sorry, but no. It doesn't matter if it is a singular use or hundred of uses. If it's a slang, it's a slang and shouldn't be said. It doesn't need and shouldnt be brought up. I find it hard to believe there are people are defending that 😞

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

I'm sorry, but no. It doesn't matter if it is a singular use or hundred of uses. If it's a slang, it's a slang and shouldn't be said. It doesn't need and shouldnt be brought up. I find it hard to believe there are people are defending that 😞

The term discussed here is listed as Spam. I do not understand where your bring slang into the mix.

The standard definition of spam is

A message that is unwanted, a message that is repeated frequently (with the possible intent to annoy).

The term does not meet these criteria as;

1) Region chat is exactly that, there is no way DE can "know/mind read" what all users want within region chat.

2) A single instance does not constitute spam only multiple repeated post do.

The term slang refers to

short hand communication in informal setting, or an insult directed at a person.

The above does not relevant because;

1) short hand message, there are many slang phases in the game so why single out this one? So saying it's not allowed cause it's slang isn't valid

2) It isn't insulting anyone because it's a character in a video game, they do not exist. It's also a joke.

Edited by (PS4)Wildoutlaw7
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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, (PS4)Wildoutlaw7 said:

The standard definition of spam is

A message that is unwanted, a message that is repeated frequently (with the possible intent to annoy).

The term does not meet these criteria as;

1) Region chat is exactly that, there is no way DE can "know" what all users want within region chat.

2) A single instance does not constitute spam only multiple repeated post do.

1. It doesn't matter what users "want". It is DE's chat. Using it is a privilege not a right, and DE decides what can and can't be said in their chat.

2. Spam can refer to one person saying something multiple times, to multiple people saying one thing, i.e. when chat spams !plat in chat. It may occur often enough DE sees this as spam.

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Wildoutlaw7 said:

The term slang refers to

short hand communication in informal setting, or an insult directed at a person.

The above does not relevant because;

1) short hand message, there are many slang phases in the game, so saying it's not allowed cause it's slang isn't valid

2) It isn't insulting anyone because it's a character in a video game, they do not exist. It's also a joke.

1. If you are referring to phrases such as "Tenno Skoom(?)" That is a made up one for the game and not a real life one.

2. It doesn't matter if it refers to a fictional character it is still a real life slur, whether it's a joke or not, it does not belong in DE's chat. 

Edited by (XB1)Shodian
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1) It being DE chat is not the reason that is being given by DE for it's removal. If it was I woundn't be posting.

2) Guilt by association then?

3) Slang Baro, WTB, WTS, PMO, [while not region chat is common slang] PL, bp, various other things.

Disclaimer: We seem to have strong difference of views so I will no longer respond as this isn't very productive.

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Thanks, the endorsement thing sounds great and an official Discord server will be something I look forward to joining

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Changes look great, and joined the new discord channel. Actually looking forward to helping with the bug bounties if timezones allow it, too!

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Someone wanna let me know when the official wf discord server ever allows you to chat? I apologize, but I do not intend to sit in a discord server that only allows reacts at specified times.

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Finally got around to reading and catching up with this forums discussion/posts.

First off:

Spoiler

 

On 2019-04-05 at 12:26 PM, Rydia said:

Letting certain things just happen and then "fade out" is possible to interpret as complicit support for a concept. If DE wishes to have a stance of welcome and inclusive chat, and they decide that concept is not compatible, they have no choice but to act in that fashion. Likewise, there is a hypocritical tension inherent in stronger enforcement: the community believes DE missed the mark or wasn't paying attention and thus endorsed or at least permitted unacceptable behavior to happen, but the community also simultaneously wants DE to be highly responsive to the rules-lawyering folks who want to debate them about their chat in their game.

Enforcement has almost no upside - practically speaking, the internet gives a megaphone to every single voice. Youtube videos slapping DE in the face, righteous posts on Reddit and these forums, and even Twitter replies to random update posts about unrelated topics actively steal the energy from the DE staff.

"But just fix it by being more transparent and do what we want!"

So they are.

But now people are nitpicking DE's feelings and wording and not validating their point of view, while simultaneously demanding their points of view be validated.

It is a type of hell to be in this adversarial situation. Facebook or Twitter has the same struggles.

 

On 2019-04-05 at 1:14 PM, Rydia said:

It's hard to be really communicative and transparent on the internet when you want to run stuff in a certain way other people disagree with, because there will ALWAYS be someone who thinks you're wrong and is really good at telling everyone else that.

 

 

Spoiler


On 2019-04-05 at 6:36 PM, Rhekemi said:

Thanks for the update. It's progress. Thoughts, opinions, and suggestions below.

Regarding chat moderation, if the filter's sensitivity to certain words and phrases cannot or will not be addressed at this time (or in the near future), a vital feature should be a message telling members why they are banned and for how long. It should remain for the duration of their chat ban.

Regarding the new endorsements system, sounds great on the surface, but the endorsements portion of the system is a mistake and a disaster waiting to happen. Is the idea to encourage Tenno to be helpful? We're already helpful. Why create a needless extra system?

Take a moment to really consider what you're about to create. You're unintentionally going to monetize the spirit right out of being a helpful Tenno. Once you create a system where a helpful Tenno is rewarded with some assigned numeric, something of value (anything), some cosmetic, you turn a gift into a transaction (between the helped and the helper) and a competition (between helpful Tenno).

I know you guys like to create new systems, reward tiers, and incentives, but this is one area where the system you're proposing will fail to address the real problem.  

Why do we help others? We do it because someone else helped us, or maybe because no one did and we want the next person's journey to be easier. We do it because it feels great. We do it because we want to teach the next generation to do better, be better, to pass it on.

We don't do it for upvotes, perks, reputation, or endorsements. 

The Guides program sought to vet helpful Tenno and then make them easily identifiable to new players. That's the core.

Getting back to just that core, I'd set aside the vetting part (initially, at least) and give every player a Guide flag. They could toggle their Guide flag to On or Off Duty, and hang out in a dedicated server. The flag will be visible beside their name and in their profile. (Doesn't have to be a flag.) I will offer, once again, these suggestions for a Member's Help server.

As for why I'd set aside vetting entirely (to begin with), that's because there's no one vetting us when we help clan mates and friends, randoms, public squad members, people on the forum or the subreddit or Twitter. We just help. At least initially, I think you could test it as is and see what stats you get back. 

If a reporting system is needed (to measure new member satisfaction with the help the received), those reports should go directly to DE (or support), their results never public. If a Guide keeps getting written up for giving terrible advice or taking new members head-first into fire-fights and Eidolon hunts and then berating their squad of confused Tenno, DE can revoke their access to the Guide flag system for X weeks and send that member an in-game message (via Ordis) scolding them and telling them to do better.

If a Guide keeps getting great feedback, they keep their flag and keep helping folks.

If the flags are given out on a trial basis for the community as a whole, it could be run a few weeks/months at a time, then closed to digest all the feedback internally.

Aside from that, I think creating a ticket or flag system or a separate new member queue could work.

Ticket/flag system

  Reveal hidden contents
  • Experienced Tenno with time on their hands put up their "Guide On Duty" flag
  • New and confused Tenno put up their "Help!" flag or file a "Help!" ticket
  • All Tenno with On Duty flags up can click on the "Help!" and are matched with those who need help. Once a squad is full, the Help flag or ticket comes down.
 

New Member Queue 

  Reveal hidden contents
  • Repurpose the code that creates queues for Eidolon hunting, or multiple instances of relays/zone hubs, or differentiates between Fissure, Nightmare, and normal nodes/missions
  • Experienced Tenno with time on their hands put up their "Guide On Duty" flag, lining them up for matchmaking with newer Tenno
  • Once a New and confused Tenno chooses a mission node, their auto-matched with an On Duty Tenno to help them complete X mission
1

I honestly think getting back to just the core, the basics, should be tried first. Forget about rewarding and acknowledging helpful Tenno. Focus on finding a way to make helping Tenno easier. If that system succeeds, then you can think about rewards if you insist, but rewards are completely unnecessary, imo.

As for the now retired GotL, I'd like to thank all the guides who faithfully executed their mission statement. Volunteering your time in a public-facing way isn't easy. To all of you who always did your best to help others, well done.

Regarding the GotL armor and cosmetics, maybe exclusive armor and cosmetics for a group of helpful Tenno did bother other Tenno who were also helpful but not a part of that group. Maybe it was a bad look on DE's part. But what's done is done, and the GotL armor and cosmetics should remain with those now retired Guides. 

What's more important is ironing out how to match guides to new Tenno.

As for Rebecca's choice words in the OP, we could focus on the tone and phrasing, or we could focus on progress. I think we should focus on progress, just as so many asked DE (and the community) to focus on progress and ignore Rahetalius' tone, choice words, and delivery. His videos had a core message that, at their heart, came from the right place, even if he could've delivered it with more objectivity and less sensationalism. 

The same is true here: don't lose sight of the core message. Remember that at its heart the post is about progress. It's not perfect, but neither was the criticism that brought us to this point.

Yes, we do hold DE to a higher standard than the playerbase as a company and a service provider.

Yes, it's tricky when the company is as tight with the community as they are.

Yes, I wish Rebecca's OP had a stronger acknowledgment of what went wrong and that DE takes full responsibility (I'm not looking for a hanging), but that clearly isn't going to happen.

I'll take this and hope we keep moving forward, not backward.


 

 

Very interesting thoughts/ideas from you two. Definitely points and things to ponder on.
@Rydia It really is a catch22 with all of this (and I think DE know so). Sadly, on the internet there'll always be people who will twist/disarm your points and/or derail the objective of the point that is trying to be made. While this isn't always the case, as I've seen and been apart of very productive/engaging discussions on the net, it seems the former is (sadly) more frequent.

@Rhekemi An interesting take on the new system. I really like the concept of "getting back to the basics/core", as I think it is essential for the new system to be successful/effective at what it's trying to achieve. A lot of this new system is still very TBD by DE, but I do hope they really take all the great feedback/discussions going on into consideration, as I really want to see this new system succeed.

There's something I wish to (hopefully) lay to rest tho:
As my time spent as a Guide (and even just reading this forum discussion) I often see a lot of people bring up two re-occurring questions/misconceptions in regards to the GotL program.
 1. I never saw any guides, where were they?
 2. Guides abused their power.
While I don't got all the answers, maybe I can (hopefully) add some insight from the perspective from a Tenno being "inside looking out", so-to-speak, and lay a lot of these things to rest.

1. Never saw any Guides.
Visibility was always an issue with the GotL program. It's something DE struggled with finding a solution for the entirety of the programs lifespan. It's the very reason why the sigil (and eventually) the shoulder armor was created. These cosmetics were supposed to help identify Guides better whenever they would help players in missions and/or hang out in relays & hubs.
The problem with those cosmetics is that they didn't directly tie in for people to go "Oh that's a Guide" unless people already know what said cosmetics represented. 
This was especially an issue when helping out new players, as both the sigil and armor looked like nothing that screamed "come talk to me if you need help/have questions" to new players. 

A lot of us Guides brainstormed ideas. Of course, none of these ideas came to fruition, as there were just to many numerous problems/issues that would arise with them. 

The thing is though; Majority of you have probably encountered or seen a Guide at one point or another during your journey through the game. 
Someone offering their help in recruiting, players answering questions in region, random pm's you'd get answering a question you had, and potentially just randoms you've encountered in missions and/or hubs in general. 
I can't speak for every former Guide, but I know that I personally never openly stated I was a Guide unless I were asked directly.
Why? Simply cause I don't see a point to (unless for the reason stated above). I was there to help, and (as far as I see things), I'm no different than any other tenno that simply wants to help.

Guess that now leads onto the second point;

2. Guides abused their power.
This information/point goes back as far as I can recall. Way back in the programs past, Guides (senior Guides specifically) had moderating powers, this is true.
However, that was a long time ago.
Guides (for the longest time) no longer had any moderating powers, and had only the same powers as any other Tenno. 

I've stated this before, but; 
If you saw any Guides abusing their 'title' by treating other Tenno poorly, report their behavior. They are by no means above the ToS.

In my years spent as a Guide, I've met and encountered a great number of wonderful people. Even a good handful of them went above and beyond, going through huge extents when it came to helping players both professionally & effectively. Their good-hearted nature and open/willingness to help others above and beyond were nothing short of inspiring and admirable.

It's easy (and understandable) from a Tenno on the outside looking in, to see the GotL program as potentially an "exclusive club". However, (for me) it felt like a group of like-minded individuals who were very passionate about helping out the game and the community for the better.
And in my years spent in the program, I grew to know a lot of them, and will forever cherish them like a second family.

-----------------

While the GotL program is no more, I do genuinely hope that this new system ends up doing what it's intended to do, and that it does it well. 

I am hopeful towards this new system, and I hope to expand this sense of family/unity with this new system.
Here's to our ever-growing community, and our ever-growing want to help out those in need.

Anywho, that's enough rambling from this ol' bean.. 

Go out there, and kill them with kindness, Tenno~

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On 2019-04-05 at 6:12 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

kick-ass Frost

That would actually result into chat ban. Could you please censor the original post to be more suitable for my virgin eyes.

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As a brand new Tenno, I have never been this excited to be a part of Warframe and to see how involved the devs are with the community.

I have found most players to be very welcoming. I look forward to seeing DE’s short-term and long-term goals for the game.

We all lift together!

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On 2019-04-05 at 8:36 PM, Rhekemi said:

Thanks for the update. It's progress. Thoughts, opinions, and suggestions below.

Regarding chat moderation, if the filter's sensitivity to certain words and phrases cannot or will not be addressed at this time (or in the near future), a vital feature should be a message telling members why they are banned and for how long. It should remain for the duration of their chat ban.

Regarding the new endorsements system, sounds great on the surface, but the endorsements portion of the system is a mistake and a disaster waiting to happen. Is the idea to encourage Tenno to be helpful? We're already helpful. Why create a needless extra system?

Take a moment to really consider what you're about to create. You're unintentionally going to monetize the spirit right out of being a helpful Tenno. Once you create a system where a helpful Tenno is rewarded with some assigned numeric, something of value (anything), some cosmetic, you turn a gift into a transaction (between the helped and the helper) and a competition (between helpful Tenno).

I know you guys like to create new systems, reward tiers, and incentives, but this is one area where the system you're proposing will fail to address the real problem.  

Why do we help others? We do it because someone else helped us, or maybe because no one did and we want the next person's journey to be easier. We do it because it feels great. We do it because we want to teach the next generation to do better, be better, to pass it on.

We don't do it for upvotes, perks, reputation, or endorsements. 

The Guides program sought to vet helpful Tenno and then make them easily identifiable to new players. That's the core.

Getting back to just that core, I'd set aside the vetting part (initially, at least) and give every player a Guide flag. They could toggle their Guide flag to On or Off Duty, and hang out in a dedicated server. The flag will be visible beside their name and in their profile. (Doesn't have to be a flag.) I will offer, once again, these suggestions for a Member's Help server.

As for why I'd set aside vetting entirely (to begin with), that's because there's no one vetting us when we help clan mates and friends, randoms, public squad members, people on the forum or the subreddit or Twitter. We just help. At least initially, I think you could test it as is and see what stats you get back. 

If a reporting system is needed (to measure new member satisfaction with the help the received), those reports should go directly to DE (or support), their results never public. If a Guide keeps getting written up for giving terrible advice or taking new members head-first into fire-fights and Eidolon hunts and then berating their squad of confused Tenno, DE can revoke their access to the Guide flag system for X weeks and send that member an in-game message (via Ordis) scolding them and telling them to do better.

If a Guide keeps getting great feedback, they keep their flag and keep helping folks.

If the flags are given out on a trial basis for the community as a whole, it could be run a few weeks/months at a time, then closed to digest all the feedback internally.

Aside from that, I think creating a ticket or flag system or a separate new member queue could work.

Ticket/flag system

  Reveal hidden contents
  • Experienced Tenno with time on their hands put up their "Guide On Duty" flag
  • New and confused Tenno put up their "Help!" flag or file a "Help!" ticket
  • All Tenno with On Duty flags up can click on the "Help!" and are matched with those who need help. Once a squad is full, the Help flag or ticket comes down.
 

New Member Queue 

  Reveal hidden contents
  • Repurpose the code that creates queues for Eidolon hunting, or multiple instances of relays/zone hubs, or differentiates between Fissure, Nightmare, and normal nodes/missions
  • Experienced Tenno with time on their hands put up their "Guide On Duty" flag, lining them up for matchmaking with newer Tenno
  • Once a New and confused Tenno chooses a mission node, their auto-matched with an On Duty Tenno to help them complete X mission
1

I honestly think getting back to just the core, the basics, should be tried first. Forget about rewarding and acknowledging helpful Tenno. Focus on finding a way to make helping Tenno easier. If that system succeeds, then you can think about rewards if you insist, but rewards are completely unnecessary, imo.

This is actually a brilliant idea! Kudos to you!

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Posted (edited)

little late as there where problems for years but i'm hopefull about this.

it's still somewhat sad that this doesn't adress the problems from before or anything about those who have been wronged without a reason.

not to mention that the "mob" comment was completely unneeded and is worded like they look down on the community.

Edited by Hiirios
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20 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

not to mention that the "mob" comment was completely unneeded and is worded like they look down on the community.

They're addressing mob justice mentality, not looking down on the community. 

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@MagPrime i didn't mean that they look down on us and i don't want anybody to think so. what i meant was that it is worded somewhat spitefull towards the community since this topic finally became big enough for DE not to ignore it or push it to the side as they did for years.

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1 minute ago, Hiirios said:

@MagPrime i didn't mean that they look down on us and i don't want anybody to think so. what i meant was that it is worded somewhat spitefull towards the community since this topic finally became big enough for DE not to ignore it or push it to the side as they did for years.

Considering my experience with the community, I don't believe it is spiteful.  DE and many community members have an anti-mob justice stance, but many people seem to think any change made is a result of mob justice, only to create more negative behavior.

They're just making it clear that the changes aren't a result of mob justice, that this change came about from DE acknowledging a change needed to be made, to prevent people from getting it into their heads to try ganging up on the devs.  (again)

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Joined your official Discord the other day. Looking forward to how things go.

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Why not just have kickbot delete your chat when you say the whole "Nezha is a trap" thing, and explain why it's bad, like they do with the use of the word "cancer", instead of the chat ban for a week?
We've already got a chat deletion for "Where Barko", with a response telling you to learn to spell his name (politely, mind you), and for "Help".

A lot of people seem to be struggling with why it's not allowed, and upset that it just straight up bans you without a warning.

I'd like to see an end to these heated forum debates, and I feel like this may be the more balanced solution regarding both sides.

  • You still can't say the phrase since it's instantly deleted.
  • You're told why it's not allowed by the bot.
  • And (maybe) you aren't chat banned for a lame meme that should of died ages ago.

     

If the chat bans must continue, then at the very least have kickbot send you some mail or something when you get banned for the troublesome phrase, explaining why it's bad and toss in a "Take this time to reflect.".
People are far less likely to dispute a chat ban if they have something that tells them the reason why.

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Posted (edited)

Disappointed that certain types of posts are still being removed.

I'm confused by this, as no system appears to exist for the purpose of notifying users when their content is removed.

Spoiler

 

I'm familiar with the Guidelines, but it seems standard practice to have at least some automated system that notified users of the reasons why their content might be removed. It's much more burdensome for both the moderators and the users when no such system exists. Moderators are forced to field seemingly random complaints related to posts they may not have ever interacted with, and users have no clear course of action to pursue queries about actions made on their content.

The predictable result of all this confusion is the driving of a wedge between moderators and users, leading to a chilling effect on discussion and a false reading of the community's feelings/attitudes. 

 

Regarding DE's statements and policies as outlined on the OP, I will continue to (politely) register my disappointment/disagreement with the approach being taken. 

 

 

Edited by Letter13
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I have actually changed my mind about this new system , it's looking better .

 
Because u know why, i don't know why DE made the gotl thing .
 
We can see ppl are already helping each other so there are no point for that gotl thing sadly 
 
So i think it's good they removed it. But it was a pleasure to support DE with that there
 
Hopefully this new system will make ppl more Happy n do better than before :)
 

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17 hours ago, notlamprey said:

Disappointed that certain types of posts are still being removed.

Hi notlamprey,

If you are confused with or disagree with why a post was removed, you should contact a moderator per rule 6 of the forum's code of conduct. I've removed the link from your post because re-posting removed content can be viewed as circumventing the forum rules (and be considered a form of spam, which also violates the rules). 

Moreover, if a post was quoting or primarily responding to another post which violated the rules that was removed, the subsequent post(s) responding to a rule violating post will also be removed. This means that although a post may not be violating the rules itself, it still may be removed because it is quoting another post which does violate the rules, or quoting a post which is quoting a post which violates the rules, etc.

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