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Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

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to be fair, even if Itzal gets nerfed, people will just use the next best things: max range Wormhole Nova, max range Zephyr.. these were methods we used to get around the Plains faster back when we still had Archwing Charges; if you couldn't or didn't want to spend resources on the Archwing charges, you take full advantage of frame's with the ability to travel considerable distances. nerfing Itzal would just make a specific Archwing even worse. it wouldn't stop the Meta; only change it.

as for my gripes with K-Drives, my Wolf Scrawl doesn't seem to appear on the damn thing and they take absolutely forever to rank up. short of spending several hours on the Vallis doing tricks with an Affinity Booster, and there's no way in hell I'm stooping to that level, I don't see any way of ranking up K-drives within a reasonable timeframe.. and even when my Board, the TaxEvader-2000 (clever name, right :D) hits rank 30, I have another 3 whole boards to repeat the process with.. probably just gonna buy one board of each type, but even then it'll take a LONG time to rank them all p, and I'm likely only ever gonna use the TaxEvader-2000 anyway.

 

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44 minutes ago, Hawner said:

When do Archwings get knocked out of combat when you try anything but Blink? They have shields and HP, you know? They can take a punch before you get knocked out of them. However, the K-drive dismounts you if you don't land properly or hit something you shouldn't contrary to what happens with Archwings

Do recall those delightful near-invisible homing missiles that like every ground enemy seems able to pull out of their arse specifically for archwings which dismount you instantly.

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Calling it Strategy is a pretty far stretch.

It's a simple choice really. Strategy is a plan that usually involves multiple stages or concepts.

Limitation of choice isn't game breaking however limitation of options can very easily be and produce more problems than it solves. The two are rather subtle differences. Choice is between multiple options. Where as options are your total available choices. Since Archwing is good for nothing but travel. The best travel Choice wins.

The trick is to add more options. Offense, Utility, Defense and layering more concepts than simple travel at that point you have more choices.

What we have now is one option and one choice. Nerfing said choice won't help. Adding more options will.

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2 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Do recall those delightful near-invisible homing missiles that like every ground enemy seems able to pull out of their arse specifically for archwings which dismount you instantly.

Exactly. It's like he's never encountered them, somehow. I'm not sure why he's saying what he is. Doesn't make sense based on my experience, which seems to line up with a lot of other peoples'.

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Just now, Variks_Prime said:

Exactly. It's like he's never encountered them, somehow. I'm not sure why he's saying what he is. Doesn't make sense based on my experience, which seems to line up with a lot of other peoples'.

I use an Elytron so the missiles aren't a problem for me.

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Posted (edited)

Pretty sure I called K-drives useless the moment I see the trailer. K drives are just pointless given Archwings are overall direct upgrade of land based vehicles. Plus you don't lose offensive power on an Archwing.

To make K drives useful DE have to give them unrestricted 3 dimensions mobility i.e. a flying skateboard.

Edited by Marvelous_A
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Just now, NeroAugustine said:

I use an Elytron so the missiles aren't a problem for me.

Oh, you spam the chaff thing? That works on them? You don't run out of energy or get hit anyways every 1 in 100 missiles? Elytron is probably my least used archwing.

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Just now, Variks_Prime said:

Oh, you spam the chaff thing? That works on them? You don't run out of energy or get hit anyways every 1 in 100 missiles? Elytron is probably my least used archwing.

I only use it whenever the alert triggers, and once tends to be enough.

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3 minutes ago, NeroAugustine said:

I only use it whenever the alert triggers, and once tends to be enough.

Huh, interesting. Usually when I manage to endure some (e.g. with Amesha's defenses) they just keep firing more very often, sometimes ignoring even the invulnerability from the 4 with a lowish energy value. Maybe Elytron is actually the best one for combat currently, didn't expect that, will have to try it sometime. Have you tried this on fracture defenses?

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It's already ridiculous trashy to only blink 50m forward with max range on openworld. It's a spamfest to go from one side of the map to the other this way, so what the hell nerfing it.

Also the itzal loot vacuum has a very tiny range compared to the archwing version.

So what are they gonna nerf, it's perfectly fine as is.

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Posted (edited)
il y a 43 minutes, FreyaValentine a dit :

im pretty sure he was joking

Always late for the joke, 4 days too late in fact.

Well, gotta keep that slow brain warm under that beanie  right.

Edited by iGnome21

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46 minutes ago, FreyaValentine said:

im pretty sure he was joking

Steve and Rebecca thought Scott was joking, only for Scott to say "no, I'm dead serious, next week when we sit down for our meetings I'm gunna bring up nerfing Itzal because it's broken".

Let's hope he gets 4-to-1 veto'd, because he's pretty much the only one who thinks Archwings need a freaking NERF in open worlds

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Posted (edited)
Just now, Variks_Prime said:

Huh, interesting. Usually when I manage to endure some (e.g. with Amesha's defenses) they just keep firing more very often, sometimes ignoring even the invulnerability from the 4 with a lowish energy value. Maybe Elytron is actually the best one for combat currently, didn't expect that, will have to try it sometime. Have you tried this on fracture defenses?

Haven't done many fracture stuff, but I could see it being useful if modded correctly.
But when it comes to ground coverage, it's easily the slowest.

Edited by NeroAugustine
And another thing

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The problem isn't Itzal, it's bounties, it's a single extract point, it's tedious brain-dead content like thermia fractures. Scott isn't wrong, but nerfing Itzal is treating the symptom. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

The problem isn't Itzal, it's bounties, it's a single extract point, it's tedious brain-dead content like thermia fractures. Scott isn't wrong, but nerfing Itzal is treating the symptom. 

That and there's no content for archwings, so Itzal being the fastest makes it flat out best, simply because there's no need for an archwing to do anything other than go fast. More content for archwings- or a rework of existing content- may not be out of order, but I suspect what DE will deliver won't be as comprehensive as we hope it will. 

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1 hour ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Oh God. People are really believing this? Incredible!

Wtf are you talking about. In any way tell me why this is a good thing?! Thoughout all the years, this wing wasn't an issue until now?!

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I wouldn't call Itzal broken. I'd just say that every other vehicle that we could use are just really bad. That's not a player problem, that's on DE problem. That's on DE to design better.

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Archwings in open world feel terrible to control for anything except moving from A to B. That's number 1 reason I prefer Itzal over the other archwings.

Using them is like a mount, in most open world games the mounts don't really need to serve any other purpose but to make traveling faster.

The biggest quality of life change was the unlimited archwing charges because it made everything so simple when you're asking us to go 1000m to 2000m between bounty missions. Even the Thermia event you had to go almost from one end of the map to the other to get the canisters and then we were forced to go around looking for the fissures. Several times. 

And my view is that you partly killed the fun of Kdrives with this terrible standing and grind. To me personally it has just left a bitter taste, I feel like because I will never get anywhere but I feel like if I bring it out I need to try to do some stupid repeated/random moves to get some random numbers on my screen to maybe someday find out I got enough to max my drive. It's not fun, and it's a lot slower than flying with less visibility (not to mention all the mountains).
Maybe if you give Kdrives a go fast mode some players would opt to do that. But as it is the grinding part of them are an absolute fun killer for me. It's like that pre-ESO focus grind that barely mattered to chase because you were never getting anywhere anyway so why bother? Yet you grabbed the orb if it was close and maybe one day it paid off a tiny bit. Yet it never feels rewarding.

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1 hour ago, Variks_Prime said:

Maybe when you try to play free roam more, you'll understand. Ask a hardcore eidolon 5+x3 player about this compared to Fetch. I'm not one, but I understand they see this as even more important.

As a harrow hunter, getting fast transportation is a must. The fact people think these type of threads are a joke. Speaks volumes of how many white knights support awful choices for the game. 

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-04-05 at 3:50 PM, Sagittarix said:

Although I wanted to voice my opinion of K-Drives I hope it doesn't distract from the point I am making on Itzal (being that strategic choices do not break the game, in my opinion).

I totally agree with your post sir. 

I also think the issue with the Itzal > all other archwings (in general) is a symptom of lack of archwing functionality, not a symptom of Itzal's OPness. 

This is another case of how: 

The games changes > a current item adapts well to the change, putting every else to shame > that item becomes meta > no uses anything but that item > devs dont like how players only use that item > they try to nerf that item > players protest > the devs fundamentally change the game to accommodate all the other items and pseudo-nerf that one meta item > everyone complains for a while > continued reworks

Unfortunately, I don't think K-Drive buffs OR Itzal nerf is going to really fix the issue. The truth is that Archwing has become universally hated by most players, and most archwings have little functionality in the plains (besides Itzal). This is a new issue brought about with the introduction of open worlds, an issue that has not been addressed because no on really complained about it until the K-Drives came out. 

K-Drives, IMO, are much more fun to ride than Archwings; however, I rarely ride them because practicality > style. K-Drives need to be buffed, Itzal needs to be reworked so that it's not the only meta, and the other Archwings need to be given powers that allow them to provide competitive advantage on the ground. 

As much as I love the Itzal, I personally find it boring that Itzal is the only thing I pretty much use now for anything practical, and over time I've come to despise it. Perhaps once could argue that Itzal's 1 was a mistake in and of itself, because it added a gamebreaking level of mobility to the game to begin with. Who knows? 

Let's just hope this doesn't turn into another point of massive contention between the devs and between players. 

Edited by METAHUMVN
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Before "open world" Warframe, I never used the Itzal - never saw the need.  My go to was the Amesha.  Once Tridolon hunting was introduced, I started to use the Itzal.  Why?  Expediency.  Outside of Tridolon hunting do I use the Itzal?  No.

And I suspect many others in the community have had a similar experience.  Perhaps even a majority.

The Itzal became relevant because of "open world" Warframe and specifically, Tridolon hunting.  Perhaps Orb fights to some extent as well.  It did not suddenly become OP across all content.  The Itzal hasn't changed.  The content has - and only for certain specific instances.

So, Scott, give your head a bit of a shake and go back to the drawing board.  What is the root of the problem here?  The Itzal's Blink ability?  Or the content for which it has become useful?  And is this actually a problem?  And why does your only solution (only publicly stated one, mind) involve deleting that usefulness?  Can't you do any better than that?  Here's a suggestion: Start developing content for which the other Archwings are useful, for which they might fill a particular niche.  Or, conversely stated, develop content for which the Itzal's Blink ability does not give it such a stand out ability vis a vis the other archwings.  You strike me as a bright lad, I'm sure you can come up with something.  Something a little more nuanced and cerebral than "Nerf it!" at any rate.

Or is it against your, and by extension, the studio's design philosophy to design content for which a particular bit of gear (ex. a particular Warframe, etc.) excels above others?  And should we expect more musings/rumblings about future nerfs into mediocrity in the future?

 

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I don't understand the reason for the nerf in this instance.... There is no game breaking ability that causes players to bypass objectives or use Itzal in a way it wasn't meant to be used.  So why nerf it ?   How about introducing a speed mod the buffs the other archwing's to increase or "blink" their flight speed?    I don't see how players choosing to use an item like Itzal's speed ability to aid in travel is any different than people choosing to use a specific warframe, with a specific ability to accomplish a task so its more efficient... that's like saying using Frost's bubble or Limbo's rift or Gara's Splinter storm/Mass vitrify to protect a target should get nerfed due to overuse during defense missions.

It seems DE's way of countering the use of an item is to nerf its abilities to decrease player use. Disappointing.  Long term players will still use other archwings, at the very least, for mastery advancement.

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1 hour ago, Xaelroa said:

It's different from frames in the fact that itzal causes things like players joining into public squads and getting immediately kicked because the host was itzaling around and cleared the mission before the loading screen finished.

By that logic, DE would nerf even further Ember's world on fire, and Equinox maim that wipe ALL enemies in low level extermination fissures before the squad finishes loading.

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