Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

[motorfirebox]

It's not strategy if there's only one good choice.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

3 hours ago, Toddrusel said:

nerfing itzal is like nerfing cake, cookies, noodles, anything that is good and tasty and yummy and great, It's a dumb idea and people need to just tell scott no. No and more No!

K drive needs a boost in speed but In the end I don't see the point because archwing should be faster as it's a thing used for also space flight and air. Riding a skateboard wouldn't be great with archwing speeds. it's dumb and makes no sense because of terrain and tricks etc.
 

anyways don't nerf itzal because K drive sucks. buff Kdrive because it sucks.

My brother. K-Drive is more recent than AW, and it was created as a hype toy to back Fortuna up, nothing more. And in some people's air-filled minds newer always means better. 

Because I assure you, had Archwing been launched with Fortuna, and K-Drives be an old gimmick instead of the new shiny toy, we would't be debating this right now.

Edited April 6, 2019 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[BlizzardMamba]

When will they realize that there will always be a meta option. Something will always be better/more convenient than something else for content X and players will use it. As soon as Iztal is 'slow' there will be another 'best' choice.

Nerf Frame X, now everyone plays Frame Y. Nerf Gun A and watch everybody switch to B... I just don't understand why you would do this in a pve game.

[DeltaPangaea]

The problem isn't with Itzal, it's with archwings being near useless for anything but what Itzal is best at.

Give us more things to do with archwings besides flying from A to B and getting knocked out of the air instantly by near-invisible homing rockets and maybe people will use other damn wings.

Itzal's the best at NOT getting knocked out of the air in one shot too, by the by, despite being the most fragile normally. Because both warp and penumbra can $&*^ over those rockets. Itzal is not only the best wing for sandbox traversal, it's the best for sandbox combat too since most of the others will just get downed instantly.

[Yagamilight123]

hace 1 hora, Sagittarix dijo:

Choosing to use a certain thing because it provides a certain benefit is not game breaking, it is called strategy.

Context: In the clip below Scott says that limiting the choice of archwings to Itzal if a player wants to be fast is game breaking and should therefore be removed.

EDIT: embedding the clips doesn't work.

https://www.twitch.tv/warframe/clip/MistyLivelyGoblinWoofer

How is making a choice to get a certain benefit (speed in this case) a game breaking thing?

If I want to deal massive aoe damage, my choice of Warframes is limited.
If I want to put 200k corrosive damage into a grineer face, my choice of weapons is limited.

I don't understand how limitation of choice (even strict limitation) is game breaking.
Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

I can see that strict and repetitive meta would be game breaking but that is solved by providing alternatives and not by nerfing useful equipment.

On a sidenote:
I would hate so see Itzal being nerfed for the supposed goal of making K-Drives more useful.

  Revelar contenido oculto

THEY WON'T. THEY WILL NEVER BE.

K-Drives were one of the worst things of 2018. Much wow at Tennocon but they make no sense whatsoever:

1. Why do they provide mastery? This is a space ninja game with exploding arrows, not a skateboard simulator. 
2. Why are the stats not varying? What's even the point? Ah, yes... mastery. Otherwise nobody would care.
3. Why do Ventkids have 5 ranks? We have enough syndicates already...

I have to wonder why DE invests in gimmicky useless stuff like K-Drives and floofs when there is so much open work to do (bug free host migration, enemy scaling, difficulty, Warframe reworks, etc.).
I actually do not wonder since it's pretty obvious that floofs attract more players than a well rounded difficulty rework would.

Although I wanted to voice my opinion of K-Drives I hope it doesn't distract from the point I am making on Itzal (being that strategic choices do not break the game, in my opinion).
I intentionally did not put this into feedback since I am not providing solutions, alternatives or anything of substance...

Its not gamebreaking ... its just DE angry because they made a skate that nobody use and now they try to force it into players .

[Birkenhoff]

If  Itzal gets nerved, it'll make 5x3's a tiny bit harder. 

Any other impact?

[(NSW)Katsuro]

quote from the reaper hunter: Nerfing the Itzal Archwing is taking the easy way out to a greater problem. People utilize Blink because the open worlds are HUGE and flying slowly from point A to point B is the quickest way to make people actively AVOID the Plains and Orb Vallis. The #1 complaint I heard over and over again when Plains released was how tiring it got during bounty mission having to constantly jump from 1 side of the map to the other. The Itzal Archwing only has 1 thing going for it and that's it's mobility. Have you ever taken an Itzal to an actual Archwing mission? The Ult sucks, The Vacuum is just a loot utility, and Staying invisible is the only way to stay alive. Scott, if you're so hell bent on not limiting player choice, STOP LIMITING PLAYER CHOICE. If I want to ride my floating skateboard over a mountain or light-speed across the sky, that's my choice.

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, Aejan said:

There's nothing wrong with it being slightly faster than the other Archwings, the problem is that it sets the precedent for being that fast. It is the fastest way to get around the open world areas, hands down. No other Archwing even comes close. If you go to do a bounty with your Odonata on, you get left in the dust and are late to every objective. 

They're not nerfing the Iztal because it's the fastest, they're changing the Iztal because no other choice even competes with it. You need to pick it, or you are too slow to fly with the group. A faster flight speed is fine, but dashing a mile across the Plains makes every other Archwing a joke by comparison. 

The only way I could agree with you is if the nerf only takes effect in open worlds AND they continue to make open world air-to-surface combat unviable (since momentum is still borked, and almost every enemy can fire those damned EMP rockets). I know nobody actually plays archwing combat missions, but that's what Blink was originally designed for: helping Itzal move around in archwing combat. Nerfing Blink across the board removes Itzal's valuable survival/re-positioning tool in the game mode it was actually designed for

[TARINunit9]

Lemme just migrate a comment I made in another thread over to here:

I know nobody actually plays archwing combat missions, but that's what Blink was originally designed for: helping Itzal move around in archwing combat. Nerfing Blink across the board removes Itzal's valuable survival/re-positioning tool in the game mode it was actually designed for. And what would it accomplish on open worlds? Nothing, because Itzal's sprint speed is still twice as fast as a K-drive. And air-to-surface combat is still unviable, both because momentum is totally borked and because half the enemies are allowed to spam anti-air EMP rockets that disable archwing, so it's not like we would suddenly have incentive to play Elytron

Scott needs to suck it up and listen to Rebecca and Steve on this one

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, ZarTham said:

wait.. WHAT? Is that for real?

Yes. Scott said this in the devstream. Luckily he's the only one who thinks so, because apparently he decided not to use his (normally-amazing) brain today, so there's a chance it won't happen

Edited April 6, 2019 by TARINunit9

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, Tovon said:

I am having a hard time telling if spamming this type of thread is a meme or if people don't know what jokes are. Someone please enlighten me.

Scott was NOT joking. I mean he made Rebecca and Steve stop laughing so he could explain how he thinks nerfing Itzal without buffing K-drives is a brilliant idea. In fact he thinks it's such an amazing idea he compared it to removing Coptering (somehow forgetting that the loss of Coptering came alongside removing the stamina bar and adding Bullet Jumps, Double Jumps,  and Wall Cling).

[(PSN)Oracle-Raven]

Nerfing the Itzal just seems incredibly sh***y to me, especially if you don't rework K-Drives to not suck.

I understand Sheldon's point that it may seem like owning an Itzal feels mandatory, but that just says a lot about how traversing the landscape is an issue players want to be able to get around. Fix that issue, don't nerf the solution to it.

[Dark_RRiderr]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (NSW)Katsuro:

Some things in life you just have to accept since I dont own nor created warframe

Sure.... then they have to accept if one day everyone chooses playing other games only as well if noone likes what they turned it into

[Lost_Cartographer]

55 minutes ago, BlizzardMamba said:

When will they realize that there will always be a meta option. Something will always be better/more convenient than something else for content X and players will use it. As soon as Iztal is 'slow' there will be another 'best' choice.

Nerf Frame X, now everyone plays Frame Y. Nerf Gun A and watch everybody switch to B... I just don't understand why you would do this in a pve game.

There will always be a meta option, this is true.

But that meta option shouldn't blow everything else out of the water.  Itzal was literally leaving every other archwing miles behind with little to no effort.  I'm guessing if they knew they could get away with it, they'd remove Archwing from landscape use entirely but that's basically pouring acid down One's own throat, so the next best thing is making sure people can't blink across half a landscape in an instant.

[Lost_Cartographer]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Oracle-Raven said:

Nerfing the Itzal just seems incredibly sh***y to me, especially if you don't rework K-Drives to not suck.

I understand Sheldon's point that it may seem like owning an Itzal feels mandatory, but that just says a lot about how traversing the landscape is an issue players want to be able to get around. Fix that issue, don't nerf the solution to it.

Judging by the way many players seem to play this game, it'd be a safe bet that the average player would rather be placed in a single tile with the objective in the center and extraction at the far end with no enemies getting in the way than to actually have to traverse maps and fight bad guys.

Unfortunately for players, developers should and do get to dictate pacing and what is valid as a tactic, and DE has determined that basically warping all over the place was too much.  They're okay with a meta as it's inevitable one will form.  They can't stop people from ruining their own fun as effectively as possible.  No, what DE is not okay with is something being far and away obviously the meta.  Itzal simply destroyed its competition, and that's not good for play, especially team play.  It's still going to be the fastest archwing, it just won't get anywhere half a minute or more sooner than everything else, making it less necessary for everyone else to need it just to keep up.

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[(XBOX)RPColten]

3 hours ago, (XB1)XGN DrFeelGood said:

When Fortuna was in development we were told that we would be able to attack while on the K Drive.

This is entirely untrue. When the question was raised during the streams when K-Drive was being showcased, the answer was always "K-Drive is not intended to be a weapon/combat platform. You will not be able to attack from it."

[Jinzanami]

Just now, Lost_Cartographer said:

Judging by the way many players seem to play this game, it'd be a safe bet that the average player would rather be placed in a single tile with the objective in the center and extraction at the far end with no enemies getting in the way than to actually have to traverse maps and fight bad guys.

Unfortunately for players, developers get to dictate pacing and what is valid as a tactic, and they've determined that basically warping all over the place was too much.  They're okay with a meta as it's inevitable one will form.  Can't stop people from ruining their own fun as effectively as possible.  No, what DE is not okay with is something being far and away obviously the meta.  Itzal simply destroyed its competition, and that's not good for play, especially team play.

 

this is a flawed logic.

only veterans and burned out frames would prefer what you suggested with is normal especially in this game grind fest rng case .

but nerfing something like this is not a solution, and itzal is the only option because almost nobody use archwing to fight in the plains/valley with is why itzal is the 1# choice for

the majority of the players and this will still the case even if they remove the blink ability.

DE are not doing this for our sake, they're doing it for they're sake so we dont have something convenient to skip they're crap bounty shallow open world system.

[Lost_Cartographer]

1 hour ago, Diavoros said:

By that logic, DE would nerf even further Ember's world on fire, and Equinox maim that wipe ALL enemies in low level extermination fissures before the squad finishes loading.

I mean, there was a period where they were somewhat aware of and addressing the issue of players hitting a key and just shutting down an entire map such that it begs the question why this dude is on public to begin with, but in typical DE fashion they lost interest.

1 hour ago, HugintheCrow said:

Itzal has become new coptering.

There was never anything wrong with coptering nor is there anything wrong with itzal.

However, due to the way melee was previously comparably useless for anything BUT coptering and Archwing is nowadays useless for anything BUT fast movement, those mechanics do stand out as somewhat broken.

The thing is... They aren't broken. The reason everyone coptered and didn't bother with damage melees was because damage melees sucked.

The reason why everyone is itzaling is because nothing else is good enough.

So nerfing itzal will not stop people from using it, it will just make it worse for no real payoff. The other options still suck.

 

The real point to nerfing Itzal is so that people equipped with the Amesha, Odonata, or Elytron aren't absolutely left in the dust.  The Itzal is light years ahead of them in terms of speed, and that's the problem.  At the very basic level, Scott does not want there to be a "end all, be all" option for anything.  If such a thing exists, it's broken and needs reined in.

K-drive vs. Archwing is a whole different beast entirely I don't think they can ever really balance beyond making K-drives stable combat platforms or removing archwing from landscapes, but naturally we've been spoiled, so the latter won't be received well at all.  K-drives are that hindsight kind of thing.  If they had thought of it for PoE, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[Diangelius]

5 hours ago, Lutesque said:

LoL... wait... for real ? They're killing Itzal just because its convenient ?

And I heard from many people long ago that, DE never liked Convenience or its being efficient.

 

17 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Judging by the way many players seem to play this game, it'd be a safe bet that the average player would rather be placed in a single tile with the objective in the center and extraction at the far end with no enemies getting in the way than to actually have to traverse maps and fight bad guys.

Unfortunately for players, developers should and do get to dictate pacing and what is valid as a tactic, and DE has determined that basically warping all over the place was too much.  They're okay with a meta as it's inevitable one will form.  They can't stop people from ruining their own fun as effectively as possible.  No, what DE is not okay with is something being far and away obviously the meta.  Itzal simply destroyed its competition, and that's not good for play, especially team play.  It's still going to be the fastest archwing, it just won't get anywhere half a minute or more sooner than everything else, making it less necessary for everyone else to need it just to keep up.

 

I would feel ok with whatever the nerf they bring to Itzal only if they made an actually new update to an entire Archwings, or a complete overhaul for it so that Archwings systems had a nice position in everyone's eyes.

This is one of the real Grinding game, not a kind of game that you do it just one time and you got everything you need. Not sure about you and other people but I myself just got sick of running or even flying archwings to a 1500-metre-distance waypoint after doing hundreds of Bounties. In this case, Speed is the most important factor of all.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Diangelius

[Alejandrokek]

Yeah, I think It's a terrible choice, K-Drives should be buffed, but in what way? Well, starting by speed, buff mods so they actually do something, 30% speed boost feels like nothing.

K-Drives suffer when trying to climb hills and of course mountains, and Fortuna is full of those, so, put some rockets like Rocket League! (Just a thought, but verticality really is a problem)

But what I definitely want to see is:

-Shoot while on K-Drive

-Seamless transition between on foot and K-Drive, don't lose momentum.

-K-Drive being a physical thing while unused, so you can fish in the middle of a lake, while on K-Drive or unmounted but over the board, currently you don't have any colision with it.

 

[NeroAugustine]

51 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Lemme just migrate a comment I made in another thread over to here:

I know nobody actually plays archwing combat missions, but that's what Blink was originally designed for: helping Itzal move around in archwing combat. Nerfing Blink across the board removes Itzal's valuable survival/re-positioning tool in the game mode it was actually designed for. And what would it accomplish on open worlds? Nothing, because Itzal's sprint speed is still twice as fast as a K-drive. And air-to-surface combat is still unviable, both because momentum is totally borked and because half the enemies are allowed to spam anti-air EMP rockets that disable archwing, so it's not like we would suddenly have incentive to play Elytron

Scott needs to suck it up and listen to Rebecca and Steve on this one

[(PSN)Grnmchn1]

6 hours ago, auxy said:

The argument as I understand it is that people want to use K-drives, but doing so is (at 

PERSONALLY, I think the argument is moot. You're never gonna have the K-Drives be relevant for traversal on the existing maps. Make a labyrinthine series of sewer tunnels or something, where using an archwing is extremely 

Omg I just thought of ninja turtles for SNES 

[Lost_Cartographer]

6 minutes ago, Diangelius said:

And I heard from many people long ago that, DE never liked Convenience or its being efficient.

 

I would feel ok with whatever the nerf they bring to Itzal only if they made an actually new update to an entire Archwings, or a complete overhaul for it so that Archwings systems had a nice position in everyone's eyes.

This is one of the real Grinding game, not a kind of game that you do it just one time and you got everything you need. Not sure about you and other people but I myself just got sick of running or even flying archwings to a 1500-metre-distance waypoint after doing hundreds of Bounties (reading this, just please don't make an extremely stupid argument like I could get over with hundreds of bounties, I would be fine blah blah). In this case, Speed is the most important factor of all.

And Itzal will still be the fastest Archwing, but it won't be above and beyond the fastest.  A player should be allowed to take another archwing if they want to and not fall 30 seconds to 1 minute behind every time.

And no, no matter how many times you run something, if DE says it really should take X amount of time, they get to enforce that time frame.  Get over it.  It's your problem that you want to reduce the grind down to as little time as possible, and it's telling that you're skipping enjoying game play to do so.  It's more evidence that DE needs to delay your success because once you have it... then what?  You'll play for fun?  That's never the truth.

What they'll do between Archwing and K-drives is a whole other issue, but this one is clear cut - make sure the Itzal isn't so much faster it's embarrassing to use literally anything else.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[Jinzanami]

1 minute ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

And Itzal will still be the fastest Archwing, but it won't be above and beyond the fastest.  A player should be allowed to take another archwing if they want to and not fall 30 seconds to 1 minute behind every time.

And no, no matter how many times you run something, if DE says it really should take X amount of time, they get to enforce that time frame.  Get over it.  It's your problem that you want to reduce the grind down to as little time as possible, and it's telling that you're skipping enjoying game play to do so.  It's more evidence that DE needs to delay your success because once you have it... then what?  You'll play for fun?  That's never the truth.

What they'll do between Archwing and K-drives is a whole other issue, but this one is clear cut - make sure the Itzal isn't so much faster it's embarrassing to use literally anything else.

this is bs, nobody asked for blink to be removed and nobody said it was a problem for they're enjoyment and it make no sense.

and what do you enjoy from running in the plains or the valley on your foot or with a slow as snail kdrive/archwing ? absolutely nothing especially when you have a clear goal in mind like grinding for fishes and mining rocks like the peasant that you're.

and the reason nobody was using something else other than itzal is the same reason of why the majority used carrier pet, and removing blink or nerfing it would help no one but the devs to make your grinding even more miserable so they can have more numbers on current players logged in.

[FreyaValentine]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Steve and Rebecca thought Scott was joking, only for Scott to say "no, I'm dead serious, next week when we sit down for our meetings I'm gunna bring up nerfing Itzal because it's broken".

Let's hope he gets 4-to-1 veto'd, because he's pretty much the only one who thinks Archwings need a freaking NERF in open worlds

i still think that was part of the joke, even at the ending they joked about that being the only take away of the devstream which they ended with dont