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Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

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51 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Lemme just migrate a comment I made in another thread over to here:

I know nobody actually plays archwing combat missions, but that's what Blink was originally designed for: helping Itzal move around in archwing combat. Nerfing Blink across the board removes Itzal's valuable survival/re-positioning tool in the game mode it was actually designed for. And what would it accomplish on open worlds? Nothing, because Itzal's sprint speed is still twice as fast as a K-drive. And air-to-surface combat is still unviable, both because momentum is totally borked and because half the enemies are allowed to spam anti-air EMP rockets that disable archwing, so it's not like we would suddenly have incentive to play Elytron

Scott needs to suck it up and listen to Rebecca and Steve on this one

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6 hours ago, auxy said:

The argument as I understand it is that people want to use K-drives, but doing so is (at 

PERSONALLY, I think the argument is moot. You're never gonna have the K-Drives be relevant for traversal on the existing maps. Make a labyrinthine series of sewer tunnels or something, where using an archwing is extremely 

Omg I just thought of ninja turtles for SNES 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Diangelius said:

And I heard from many people long ago that, DE never liked Convenience or its being efficient.

 

I would feel ok with whatever the nerf they bring to Itzal only if they made an actually new update to an entire Archwings, or a complete overhaul for it so that Archwings systems had a nice position in everyone's eyes.

This is one of the real Grinding game, not a kind of game that you do it just one time and you got everything you need. Not sure about you and other people but I myself just got sick of running or even flying archwings to a 1500-metre-distance waypoint after doing hundreds of Bounties (reading this, just please don't make an extremely stupid argument like I could get over with hundreds of bounties, I would be fine blah blah). In this case, Speed is the most important factor of all.

And Itzal will still be the fastest Archwing, but it won't be above and beyond the fastest.  A player should be allowed to take another archwing if they want to and not fall 30 seconds to 1 minute behind every time.

And no, no matter how many times you run something, if DE says it really should take X amount of time, they get to enforce that time frame.  Get over it.  It's your problem that you want to reduce the grind down to as little time as possible, and it's telling that you're skipping enjoying game play to do so.  It's more evidence that DE needs to delay your success because once you have it... then what?  You'll play for fun?  That's never the truth.

What they'll do between Archwing and K-drives is a whole other issue, but this one is clear cut - make sure the Itzal isn't so much faster it's embarrassing to use literally anything else.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer
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1 minute ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

And Itzal will still be the fastest Archwing, but it won't be above and beyond the fastest.  A player should be allowed to take another archwing if they want to and not fall 30 seconds to 1 minute behind every time.

And no, no matter how many times you run something, if DE says it really should take X amount of time, they get to enforce that time frame.  Get over it.  It's your problem that you want to reduce the grind down to as little time as possible, and it's telling that you're skipping enjoying game play to do so.  It's more evidence that DE needs to delay your success because once you have it... then what?  You'll play for fun?  That's never the truth.

What they'll do between Archwing and K-drives is a whole other issue, but this one is clear cut - make sure the Itzal isn't so much faster it's embarrassing to use literally anything else.

this is bs, nobody asked for blink to be removed and nobody said it was a problem for they're enjoyment and it make no sense.

and what do you enjoy from running in the plains or the valley on your foot or with a slow as snail kdrive/archwing ? absolutely nothing especially when you have a clear goal in mind like grinding for fishes and mining rocks like the peasant that you're.

and the reason nobody was using something else other than itzal is the same reason of why the majority used carrier pet, and removing blink or nerfing it would help no one but the devs to make your grinding even more miserable so they can have more numbers on current players logged in.

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2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Steve and Rebecca thought Scott was joking, only for Scott to say "no, I'm dead serious, next week when we sit down for our meetings I'm gunna bring up nerfing Itzal because it's broken".

Let's hope he gets 4-to-1 veto'd, because he's pretty much the only one who thinks Archwings need a freaking NERF in open worlds

i still think that was part of the joke, even at the ending they joked about that being the only take away of the devstream which they ended with dont

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Jinzanami said:

this is bs, nobody asked for blink to be removed and nobody said it was a problem for they're enjoyment and it make no sense.

and what do you enjoy from running in the plains or the valley on your foot or with a slow as snail kdrive/archwing ? absolutely nothing especially when you have a clear goal in mind like grinding for fishes and mining rocks like the peasant that you're.

and the reason nobody was using something else other than itzal is the same reason of why the majority used carrier pet, and removing blink or nerfing it would help no one but the devs to make your grinding even more miserable so they can have more numbers on current players logged in.

You really refuse to get it don't you?  It's being nerfed for the same reasons coptering was addressed specifically with regards to those weapons that launched players the furthest and the fastest - they were so good they were THE options.  Not just the best options, they were so good they were practically the ONLY options if others in the cell wanted to keep up. 

Player input was not necessary in this matter.  There is a clear discrepancy.  If itzal is ranked 10 out of 10 in terms of speed, the next best archwing is at best 4/10.  That's the problem.  The gap is too damn wide to be healthy for team cohesion, much less standard game play.  Have some patience. 

Whether or not you like it isn't up for debate, it's about making sure everyone and their dog's cat isn't defacto equipping Itzal because they don't even have to think about it it's so obvious.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer
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Posted (edited)

It's just nonsense imo. Nerfing Itzal or any other archwings to make K-Drives look/feel more useful is pure silliness. Even the damn base Odonata without mods is still faster than a fully modded K-Drive anyway (and I don't even mention Operator dashes or pure parkour in some ways).

The problem sits with the K-Drives, and it's simple: they just suck atm, utility-wise. Period.

Edit: I'd just add that K-Driving, in a pure sense of fun, is nontheless enjoyable from time to time. You're on an overboard doing tricks. So let's just keep them here for their purpose: fun.

Edited by C0stanza

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

My brother. K-Drive is more recent than AW, and it was created as a hype toy to back Fortuna up, nothing more. And in some people's air-filled minds newer always means better. 

Because I assure you, had Archwing been launched with Fortuna, and K-Drives be an old gimmick instead of the new shiny toy, we would't be debating this right now.

We'd still have the Itzal nerf.  The question Rebb brought forward may have started with "K-drives fun vs Archwing practicality" but it really ended with Scott saying, "Itzal >>> everything else by a wide margin."  It's the new dual zoren roflcopter, which many of the old timers here should know eventually got addressed and resulted in bullet jumping as a great equalizer.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer

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Just now, Lost_Cartographer said:

You really refuse to get it don't you?  It's being nerfed for the same reasons coptering was addressed specifically with regards to those weapons that launched players the furthest and the fastest - it was so good it was THE option.  Not just the best option, they were so good they were practically the ONLY options.  Player input was not necessary in this matter.  There is a clear discrepency.  If itzal is ranked 10 out of 10 in terms of speed, the next best archwing is at best 4/10.  That's the problem.  The gap is too damn wide to be healthy for team cohesion, much less standard game play.  Have some patience. 

Whether or not you like it isn't up for debate, it's about making sure everyone and their dog's cat isn't defacto equipping Itzal because they don't even have to think about it it's so obvious.

no my dear, nobody used melee to kill stuff back then when copttering was a thing and nobody will use ''other archwing'' for killing things if you remove blink from itzal unless they totally overhaul the archwing system so they can sell the excuse you're selling aaand the majority will still use the fastest device to ease the open world bounty crap.

and blink was a thing ever since itzal was released and nobody gave a crap but why now ? does it have anything to do with they're failtuna valleys ? 

and Itzal bread and butter is speed and blink and maybe the black hole, so nerfing it wont make other archwings suddenly interesting and fast, its only getting nerfed for DE sake and they're open world bounty time eating bs.

carrier pet was the choice for many because it proved the vacuum that ease the loot pick-up with it was a major and common problem escpeially in survival, and what did DE did about that ? oh right... they jerked us for years when we asked them to make it universe so we can use our cats and dogs and you know very well how that turned out .

players in any mmorpg will gravitate toward the most efficiency way to farm, this is a fact and you need to get over it, no amount of half backed nerfs will fix that because its not a problem for the playerbase, its a problem for the devs lazy rear.

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Firstly, DON'T NERF ITZAL YOU FOOLS!

Secondly, I'd recommend some sort of system where you can have mods auto dissolve into endo if you have x amount of duplicates of said mod. This would be a nice little QOL change allowing people to just set a number (say 50) for their duplicate mods to dissolve down to.

 

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it would be petty move by devs who are so removed from the game as be moronic enough to try it/

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Posted (edited)

Yes let's nerf Itzal because it's too fast lol! We use it because K-Drives are so damn slow that you can out run it with a volt, Zephyr, and Ivara with ziplines!

With this broken logic it's akin to GM saying one day that damn the Corvette ZR1 is toooooo fast it outruns someone's Moped so GM decides to replace the small block Supercharged V8 with a 100 horsepower inline 3 engine to make the Moped a "better" sounding option!

Edited by (XB1)Skiller115
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I would rather go back to bullet jumping across the plains than use a MRFodder-Drive, take that into consideration when nerfing Itzal.

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Yeah, no, Itzal's Blink Spam for mobility has got to go. Same exact problem 'coptering had.

Blink should require a target in range and clear LOS to go to target. Have it work exactly as Ash's teleport does, tweak range as necessary. Keeps it useful as Itzal's ability to quickly move to an enemy to engage it melee, and keeps it from being a spammable travel resource that you either have for keeping up, or don't bother keeping up at all.

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So, maybe I would care a lot less about the dev talk about the Itzal, if only the other archwings were at all useful in open world Plains/Orb.

The way it is now, the moment you are in an archwing within a certain range of enemies, you get magically shot out of the sky, regardless of defensive abilities (like Amesha) or maneuvering. The ONLY exception to this is the Itzal, which can go invisible, as well as teleport.

That makes me incredibly surprised that the proposed change is to basically just make Itzal less useful.

When will we get to use archwings for anything again? I finished leveling archguns/melee years ago, so there's no incentive to play any of the space tiles.

Where is archwing's place in the plains style? Why are you trying to make me not care about archwings or their abilities? What is the point of this?

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Just now, TheGrimCorsair said:

Yeah, no, Itzal's Blink Spam for mobility has got to go. Same exact problem 'coptering had.

Blink should require a target in range and clear LOS to go to target. Have it work exactly as Ash's teleport does, tweak range as necessary. Keeps it useful as Itzal's ability to quickly move to an enemy to engage it melee, and keeps it from being a spammable travel resource that you either have for keeping up, or don't bother keeping up at all.

The problem with coptering was it being an unintended result of the melee physics and it was an obscure and weird thing that people had to be told how to do or figure out. Itzal blinking is just 'press the button a few times'

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2 minutes ago, AliceLaFay said:

The way it is now, the moment you are in an archwing within a certain range of enemies, you get magically shot out of the sky, regardless of defensive abilities (like Amesha) or maneuvering. The ONLY exception to this is the Itzal, which can go invisible, as well as teleport.

except for odonata's and elytron's 2 (disarray and core vent) that are both made specifically for anti-air homing missiles (the things magically shooting you out of the sky) and amesha's warding grace and vengeful rush combo that make you basically immune, right?

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1 hour ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

I mean, there was a period where they were somewhat aware of and addressing the issue of players hitting a key and just shutting down an entire map such that it begs the question why this dude is on public to begin with, but in typical DE fashion they lost interest.

The real point to nerfing Itzal is so that people equipped with the Amesha, Odonata, or Elytron aren't absolutely left in the dust.  The Itzal is light years ahead of them in terms of speed, and that's the problem.  At the very basic level, Scott does not want there to be a "end all, be all" option for anything.  If such a thing exists, it's broken and needs reined in.

K-drive vs. Archwing is a whole different beast entirely I don't think they can ever really balance beyond making K-drives stable combat platforms or removing archwing from landscapes, but naturally we've been spoiled, so the latter won't be received well at all.  K-drives are that hindsight kind of thing.  If they had thought of it for PoE, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Plus, as far as combat goes, POE/Orb Vallis is pretty much the only place Elytron is useful. Not because the concept is bad, but simply because of their implementation, Elytron's powers are a right pain in the arse to use anywhere but the open worlds. Sadly, because of Itzal, Elytron sees no actual use because Teleporting is so much more useful than dropping a tactical nuke on enemies' heads.

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I am honestly fine with kdrive being slower. But I would like a reason to use them. 

 

Just to ball park: Maybe K drives can be used right away while arch wings take time to launch as the lander flys overhead and drops it?

 

I haven't played Fortnite but I think I'd like the controls to be a little more like what I've seen in Fortnite with a youtuber I follow. Complete with shooting and maybe floating while airborn like aim-gliding.

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Now, to be fair, Itzal would be a popular choice even if skywing controls weren't super terrible. Itzal is, like, perfectly designed for skywing stuff as it's currently implemented. It moves fast, it can drop missile lock, and it's vastly more controllable than other skywings. I'd use Itzal for skywing even if it didn't have a teleport, simply because the ability to actually stop when you want to stop (by hitting 2) makes Itzal vastly superior to any other option.

I've been complaining about skywing controls since they came out, but I was reminded of just how bad they are today when I hopped on a Dargyn to get my 10k achievement. Flying Dargyns is actually enjoyable. You can control where you're going, rather than having to circle the area for five dang minutes trying to scrub off your excess speed (or just hitting melee when you're in the vicinity and legging it the rest of the way). You know while I was flying that Dargyn I didn't hit the ground or another obstruction once? How crazy is that? Over eight klicks at top speed and I didn't bounce off a building or faceplant on a Sentient's discarded thighbone.

The thing about skywing is, it isn't actually all that enjoyable. It's a frustration you have to put up with to keep up. Fixing skywing so that you could actually stop when you wanted to stop, so you didn't need three separate buttons to go forward, so turning worked more like a jetplane and less like a dead whale—this, would, at the very least, make other skywings a bit more attractive in comparison to Itzal.

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3 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Now, to be fair, Itzal would be a popular choice even if skywing controls weren't super terrible. Itzal is, like, perfectly designed for skywing stuff as it's currently implemented. It moves fast, it can drop missile lock, and it's vastly more controllable than other skywings. I'd use Itzal for skywing even if it didn't have a teleport, simply because the ability to actually stop when you want to stop (by hitting 2) makes Itzal vastly superior to any other option.

I've been complaining about skywing controls since they came out, but I was reminded of just how bad they are today when I hopped on a Dargyn to get my 10k achievement. Flying Dargyns is actually enjoyable. You can control where you're going, rather than having to circle the area for five dang minutes trying to scrub off your excess speed (or just hitting melee when you're in the vicinity and legging it the rest of the way). You know while I was flying that Dargyn I didn't hit the ground or another obstruction once? How crazy is that? Over eight klicks at top speed and I didn't bounce off a building or faceplant on a Sentient's discarded thighbone.

The thing about skywing is, it isn't actually all that enjoyable. It's a frustration you have to put up with to keep up. Fixing skywing so that you could actually stop when you wanted to stop, so you didn't need three separate buttons to go forward, so turning worked more like a jetplane and less like a dead whale—this, would, at the very least, make other skywings a bit more attractive in comparison to Itzal.

Oh my god, YES, the archwing momentum is absolutely broken.

I agree with you, but on a slightly broader scale. We would have more reason to use Archwings other than Itzal if we had any reason to fight in Archwings at all

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7 hours ago, auxy said:

To reiterate, the problem is this:

  1. Join a bounty in an open-world zone (plains/vallis/etc)
  2. Other players hit their archwings and blast off, even in the Elytron
  3. I pull out my K-Drive
  4. There is no way I will get there before anything short of a defense objective is already complete.

^Main reason why KDrive is not worth using over Archwing unless you want to level up your K Drive or spend your time with it Solo

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1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

Oh my god, YES, the archwing momentum is absolutely broken.

I've been saying this for a while now, there's no reason for these things to control as "realistically" as they do, we're space ninjas and every other movement option we have is precise (barring hitting our heads on grates) and smooth, meanwhile the Archwing controls like a pair of rocket socks freshly buttered on an ice rink.

I'm really hoping that Railjack will take the "fight-sim" out of Archwing and make it control more intuitively and feel more natural.

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5 hours ago, Aejan said:

They aren't changing Iztal to make K-Drives more appealing, they're changing it to allow for player choice. If you want to get around an open world area, the Iztal is the best choice by a huge margin. If you join a game and you aren't using the Iztal, you get left in the dust. Their intention isn't to slow down open world travel, it's to allow people to pick whatever they want to pick and not be overshadowed by a clearly optimal choice. People shouldn't have to invest all the resources building the Iztal if they don't actually like how it looks or how it fights.  

They aren't going to remove the teleport and leave no compensation. The Iztal will likely get another ability that is just as good or better than the teleport, just one that doesn't make it so that you need to fly the Iztal to play the game "properly". 

If they want to make Archwings to be 'good' on open world content they would have to first removed spammable 1-hit-Archwing-KOing homing rockets from literally all the enemies. Without doing that they will always be good only for being taxis.

Without blink Itzal will still be the best taxi because of it's higher base speed, which can be increased with mods. Nerfing/replacing blink does not increase player choice, so regardless of their stated reason such a nerf only slows down the process of traveling around open world maps.

And even if they were joking about K-Drives; K-Drives will always be worse taxis because of ground geometry. If they want players to use them they would need to get rid of the pointless trick mechanics and make them combat capable and faster than walking/bullet jump spamming when in the open world.

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I'm sick of the nerf this because people don't use this mentality.  Stop taking things people enjoy or are basically a convenience to the players.

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