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Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems


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6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I'm really hoping that Railjack will take the "fight-sim" out of Archwing and make it control more intuitively and feel more natural.

I could go either way. The problem right now is, it tries to split the difference between flight sim and flying Warframe. Either would be fine, trying to be both creates a mess.

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40 minutes ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

Yes let's nerf Itzal because it's too fast lol! We use it because K-Drives are so damn slow that you can out run it with a volt, Zephyr, and Ivara with ziplines!

With this broken logic it's akin to GM saying one day that damn the Corvette ZR1 is toooooo fast it outruns someone's Moped so GM decides to replace the small block Supercharged V8 with a 100 horsepower inline 3 engine to make the Moped a "better" sounding option!

I'm going to just quote myself here.

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3 hours ago, ir8loki said:

I don't understand the reason for the nerf in this instance.... There is no game breaking ability that causes players to bypass objectives or use Itzal in a way it wasn't meant to be used.  So why nerf it ?   How about introducing a speed mod the buffs the other archwing's to increase or "blink" their flight speed?    I don't see how players choosing to use an item like Itzal's speed ability to aid in travel is any different than people choosing to use a specific warframe, with a specific ability to accomplish a task so its more efficient... that's like saying using Frost's bubble or Limbo's rift or Gara's Splinter storm/Mass vitrify to protect a target should get nerfed due to overuse during defense missions. 

It seems DE's way of countering the use of an item is to nerf its abilities to decrease player use. Disappointing.  Long term players will still use other archwings, at the very least, for mastery advancement.

The changes they made to fractures do exactly this, specifically the nullifier bubble burp.

Edited by SageVonAwesome
Fractures not fissures
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7 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

I could go either way. The problem right now is, it tries to split the difference between flight sim and flying Warframe. Either would be fine, trying to be both creates a mess.

I say put the flight-sim on the Railjack controls and remove it from the Archwing controls, it makes more sense that a large ship would control...like a ship than what is basically a space jetpack.

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8 hours ago, auxy said:

PERSONALLY, I think the argument is moot. You're never gonna have the K-Drives be relevant for traversal on the existing maps. Make a labyrinthine series of sewer tunnels or something, where using an archwing is extremely inconvenient. 

Maybe the backblast from the jets when hovering kicks up corrosive goop, while K-Drives can just glide over. 

Something like that is what's going to be required. When you have these giant open arenas, K-Drives are never going to be anything but toys.

Maybe they should make the current bonk-corridor archwing missions into k-drive missions.

Edited by SageVonAwesome
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According to someone Reb said Steve was joking when he said to nerf the Iztal; of out it but i have ideas.

To get more Archwing variety just allow Iztal 2 to create a entrance point and a exit point (basically a portal)where the player starts to press 2 and stops pressing 2 that allows other players to enter.

This allows premade squads to only have one player use Iztal to have them transport them and the other 3 to use other archwings.

The problem with K-Drive is alot harder to solve though especially when its the most boring thing in the game to level, but lets talk about that later.I had an idea where certain parts of the level need K-drives to complete mostly in the gas city since its mostly an empty area with alot of platforms for the player to parkour to(or so i recall).Since its so empty there's space where the k-drive to fit to transport the player to another place(much like archwing in Uranus).The player will start to grind on one of those railings where cargo is being transported with their K-drive now the player has defend themselves from incoming attacks.The combat will most likely be the tenno trying to dodge projectiles while trying to reach their destination on their K-Drive.Maybe flying enemies, enemies or those hamster wheels on other rails.Killing enemies will also reward the player with affinity for K-Drive.I might post more detail on how i imagine the combat to be like if this gets more attention.

Edited by Derpington9821
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I can see his point of view with nerfing itzal because yeah one AW with that ability kind of makes it a requirement. But I do think K-Drives should be buffed to compensate and should also be the easily acquirable thing that makes travel reasonable.

 

What they should do is have a "rev" mode where you hit sprint three times in a row to turn it high speed. The real issue is, with too high speed it'll mess with the tricks and it harder to control, but you'll be able to cover ground. So, really just have the three speeds slow/medium//Itzal. Either that or buff archwing speed across the board during the blink nerf (I can only imagine that a blink nerf would simply be a removal unless they maybe add some sort of pause/stall to momentum so that it doesn't outpace other frames in atmosphere.)

 

But increasing archwing speed would also have a similar problem with doing flybys on the ground being too fast or abysmally slow - same as the K-Drive. So, I'd say the solution is don't actually nerf itzal, just give K-Drive a hyperboost mode that disables trick points/falling off to get from A to B since K-drives are handed out like candy and that keeps this new fast mode from being used to grind out tricks differently. Now everyone can get around without that speed being locked behind specific unique wing and they can K-drive around fast and use their preference of arch for combat. And in this case Itzal would remain with blink and could be used as well but since K-drives can keep up more or less the blink becomes more of a redundancy.

 

Technically, you can void dash pretty fast comparable to itzal but it runs out of energy. Optionally maybe implement a squad based void "hyper dash" where maybe being near someone voided and holding down jump would lock it to squad mode, which let's the first player have extremely long and quick void dashes, effectively - a "void squad blink". Only problem is this hurts solo players then and if you make it so that it's based on player ratios such that solos can get full effect, then people will solo more definitely.

 

Another option, Lander pickups - where you can mark on the map where you want to 'jump' to and your lander will fly by and animate you hopping into it and it could fly you over and shoot you out like the landing drops in the normal cut scene. Less maneuverable - but it could be made quicker than itzal perhaps. Since everyone already has a lander there doesn't need to be any other item - this is just now a map UI function to call it outright. It should be even faster than equipping an itzal and blinking across Vallis. Or maybe have a tractor beacon item to activate it and the lander will tractor you into quickly while not hitting other people's landers or however that's best handled. There's a loss of individual mobility here compared to itzal overall but it could be worth it. Maybe let it you pick up while you're equipped with K-drive/Archwing such that you can be shot out with those without slowing down the equip process, so it'll let you hop right out of your lander with your archwing like you blinked to a spot.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

The problem isn't Itzal, it's bounties, it's a single extract point, it's tedious brain-dead content like thermia fractures. Scott isn't wrong, but nerfing Itzal is treating the symptom. 

Don't you worry they have a solution for that problem too, disable warframe abilities completely by giving the fracture itself a nullifier bubble. 🤮

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1 hour ago, motorfirebox said:

I'd use Itzal for skywing even if it didn't have a teleport, simply because the ability to actually stop when you want to stop (by hitting 2) makes Itzal vastly superior to any other option.

 

I would love having a fast stop move bound to back-roll for every archwing.

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According to someone Reb said Steve was joking when he said to nerf the Iztal; of out it but i have ideas.

To get more Archwing variety just allow Iztal 2 to create a entrance point and a exit point (basically a portal)where the player starts to press 2 and stops pressing 2 that allows other players to enter.

This allows premade squads to only have one player use Iztal to have them transport them and the other 3 to use other archwings.

The problem with K-Drive is alot harder to solve though especially when its the most boring thing in the game to level, but lets talk about that later.I had an idea where certain parts of the level need K-drives to complete mostly in the gas city since its mostly an empty area with alot of platforms for the player to parkour to(or so i recall).Since its so empty there's space where the k-drive to fit to transport the player to another place(much like archwing in Uranus).The player will start to grind on one of those railings where cargo is being transported with their K-drive now the player has defend themselves from incoming attacks.The combat will most likely be the tenno trying to dodge projectiles while trying to reach their destination on their K-Drive.Maybe flying enemies, enemies or those hamster wheels on other rails.Killing enemies will also reward the player with affinity for K-Drive.I might post more detail on how i imagine the combat to be like if this gets more attention.

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53 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I've been saying this for a while now, there's no reason for these things to control as "realistically" as they do,

The problem is they aren't even remotely realistic. They are counter-intuitive. They refuse to bleed forward momentum, but their definition of forward is lovecraftean. You can do a 180 degree turn as fast as you can move your mouse, but you can't stop ever, even though animation has you stop with the same thrusters that get you from zero to max in a split second.

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Nerfing the itzal because its too fast is almost as worthwhile as nerfing vauban because he does too much damage. The itzal is not a particularly great archwing, it was pretty much only a niche use in some raids for people who wanted to speed run them. Now that there is a place and a reason to go fast in archwing it fills the niche of "not everyone needs to be nova to get around the plains quickly". Other archwings shouldnt be buffed, but the kdrive definitely should be. the archwings werent really a way to get around the plains quickly as they arent much faster than dargins or even other warframes. Speed is the name of the game here and the itzal does it well. I do think that kdrives could stand to go a little bit faster, but you trade that speed for the fun of doing tricks and what not. although that novelty has begun to lose its luster, I dont think either the itzal or kdrives need any adjustments.

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The usage of K-drives are simply not encouraged. There is no incentive to using them compared to the itzal or  any archwing when travelling is concerned.

When k-drive came out I imagined there would be content that encourages you to use them like in a long tunnel or mostly underground missions that supports a k-drive movement and speed.

There is always an occasional void in between the traversal of bounty stages with the chances that the terrain is rocky,you are most likely gonna catch on to edges that you don’t even see when going up mountains.( This is more about the slight chunkiness of the k-drive movement since it is too close to the ground or doesn't really support an inverse kinematic like adjustment when going uphill.) 

The main issue is that there isn't mechanics that encourages the usage of them. Perhaps make it so that people could fish on top of them or have those ramps that helps with the traversal of great distance which competes/as a fun alternative with the itzal.

As much as I love k-drives like skating irl and was super excited when k-drives was announced, when it came out I was having a blast doing tricks and stuff but soon I would realize that there wasn't any merits to using a K-drive, I can't shoot, there are no special abilities to them

K-drives could be given abilities to hover in place to be able to mine those pesky mining spots or even fish while you're on top of a body of water.

Giving K-drives a utility aspect instead of directly competing with the battle/speed aspect of archwing should be a better compromise because archwing is definitely more suited for a battle situation as of now with their unique abilities.

 

Edited by Demeraire
words
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1 hour ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Yeah, no, Itzal's Blink Spam for mobility has got to go. Same exact problem 'coptering had.

Blink should require a target in range and clear LOS to go to target. Have it work exactly as Ash's teleport does, tweak range as necessary. Keeps it useful as Itzal's ability to quickly move to an enemy to engage it melee, and keeps it from being a spammable travel resource that you either have for keeping up, or don't bother keeping up at all.

yeah, #*!% no. i think you can't understand why players use Itzal. because it's FAST. because traveling in the plains is BORING. it's not even game breaking. the points of objective are uselessly spreaded out everywhere, so it's just normal to use the fastest way.

other reasons : EVERY other archwing in open world #*!%ing sucks. if they nerf itzal, then no archwing will be good, yay.

If you want to talk about coptering so much,without even thinking before speaking, i'll give you a PROPER comparison.

They will do like coptering and nerf Itzal blink, fine, but... in exchange, they give this ability to every archwing, PLUS they take out the magic archwing knock out missile. BOOM. solved, there will be way more archwing being used.

 

.....

 

Or they can take the easy, S#&$ty, senseless path and nerf Itzal, which won't fix anything, and just make things worse.

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25 minutes ago, lnfine said:

The problem is they aren't even remotely realistic. They are counter-intuitive. They refuse to bleed forward momentum, but their definition of forward is lovecraftean. You can do a 180 degree turn as fast as you can move your mouse, but you can't stop ever, even though animation has you stop with the same thrusters that get you from zero to max in a split second.

Hence the quotation marks, but you're completely right about the momentum issues, hell the sheer amount of momentum is why Rush missions are nigh unplayable for me.

The retention of inertia is also an issue to me, mainly in the fact that there's no real way to "Stop" other than hitting a wall or Itzal's 2 ablity as mentioned above.

Really the overall design going forward from Railjack should favor control over physics, even if it is unrealistic to an absurd degree I'd still rather my space combat be more in line with Mech games than space-sim ones, though the Railjack itself being the medium for space-sim would be amazing and make sense completely.

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2 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

And Itzal will still be the fastest Archwing, but it won't be above and beyond the fastest.  A player should be allowed to take another archwing if they want to and not fall 30 seconds to 1 minute behind every time.

And no, no matter how many times you run something, if DE says it really should take X amount of time, they get to enforce that time frame.  Get over it.  It's your problem that you want to reduce the grind down to as little time as possible, and it's telling that you're skipping enjoying game play to do so.  It's more evidence that DE needs to delay your success because once you have it... then what?  You'll play for fun?  That's never the truth.

What they'll do between Archwing and K-drives is a whole other issue, but this one is clear cut - make sure the Itzal isn't so much faster it's embarrassing to use literally anything else.

Do you know why I said "I would agree to any nerf possible if only there's a complete overhaul to the entire Archwings systems" ? The systems is bad enough, it has nothing attractive, appealing, or any incentives to focus on Archwings. Each AW has their obvious purpose, one for Destruction, one for Protection, one for All-round purpose, and one for Speed. If you want people to focus on other AWs, make them perform better in many crucial situations on Open-world maps, not making one worse so that everything else equals to each other. This is not the way to make a game fun, but force you to work instead (f*** work !). I'm sorry but there's no way on heaven I can agree to this broken approach of "improvement".

(Although I mentioned those Archwings' abilities, those are something Warframes can do much better with more diverse mods)

I really expect something else like, making K-Drives as fast as a large-volume motorbike at full acceleration, or attaching some shockwave effects like Rhino's.

Edited by Diangelius
just some spelling mistakes
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It has nothing to do with itzal's entire kit

the only reason people bother with hopping into archwing is to move from point A to point B, which itzal does faster with it's blink and higher base thrust speed.

 

if bounty segments didn't involve you travelling literally 500m-1000m distances then no one would even bother with any vehicle to begin with.

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Archwing are just bad in plains in general.  When a stray bullet knocks you out of archwing and everything seems to be perfectly accurate when attacking you,  and archwing abilities do diddly squat, the only use is to travel between objectives.     As such,  the mobility archwing is obviously going to be king.  

Nerf Itzal and you just make all warframes equally bad and ruin it.

 

Buff everything else so they actually have distinct roles to play.    I like your idea of leaving portals behind Itzsal,  that would allow it to fullfill the mobility role while remaining a team player and allows other archwings to be brought in.  But the other archwings don't have a role at the moment,  they're too junk.     They all need huge buffs across the board.  

 

 

K-Drives are actually really useful for going faster but also being able to pick up resources.   I'd say just double down on that by making the K-Drive break breakables, such as irradiate and bushes.    It's really convenient while looking for Wisps allowing you to move quickly and over water.

Edited by Kingsmount
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All Archwings (including Itzal) have the same problem in POE/OV, that being enemies with Archwing Deleter homing missiles making them practically useless in combat. The only difference is that Itzal can easily get away from the missles and at the same time cover lots of ground. Turning Itzal's blink into Nova's wormhole won't help, because archwing combat on POE/OV is not realistically viable. Archwings are taxis.

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