Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

[Numerikuu]

6 hours ago, justin0620 said:

I can envision if K- Drive goes ridiculously fast, players are gonna hit walls or not be able to control it.

 

Because that doesn't happen already 😓

I wanted to like K-Drives and use them to get around, but they just weren't well thought out in that regard. They slow to a crawl easily on terrain, you bump into things often, fall off, etc etc etc.

Nerfing the Itzal will do nothing to help K-Drives. As others have said, even without Blink it'll still be faster than a bloody K-Drive as well all the other archwings, along with some warframes. The problem isn't the Itzal. It's the K-Drives. They just don't fit into this space ninja game. They need a purpose besides being a gimmick.

[Jinzanami]

13 minutes ago, .OwOkin. said:

agree, lets disable archwing in the openworld

jack will change, people will gravitated toward the most efficient way to travel that shallow empty place that you call an ''open world'' .

when you have jacked up teethes you go to dentist to get them fixed, and you dont look for the single healthy teeth then jack it up so the other teethes feels justice and equality.

[Goodwill]

 

4 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

With buffing kdrives. I don't think buffing speed is 100% necessary, even something like, letting us use abilities and guns in them would be a great buff. Kdrives would have the niche of being slower then archwings but in exchange we keep more killing power then archwings.

I also expect the railjack update to make standard archwing missions more important, so people might actually care more about archwing abilities.

As much as I like the stunning scenery, I really need a good reason to explore or take it slower. right now both open worlds feel empty, sometimes it just feels like it's a standard mission with less enemies and longer hallways. The new mini boss is actually a step in the right direction in terms of making POE more interesting. 

Again, I'll agree with your suggestion to buff the utility of K-drives, got nothing against that. I just think that a lot of players don't realize how fast we are already moving. Hell, we even make Sonic games look slow. My personal opinion is that Warframe should chill on the nitro and just cruise a bit.

My hope is that Railjack will be the Archwing rework the game needs. Although my expectations are in check and to be honest, I am erring more on the side that it won't be released as optimal as players would like. However, I'm all for Railjack because I miss Battlefront 2's (not EA) space battles and having something similar to that I will be content with.

As I brought up previously, DE is stuck in a conundrum. Right now (as of the recent Devstream) everyone wants everything to go fast. But if people are zipping through the maps, there is zero incentives for DE to design good maps or even consider fleshing them out when it's too easy for players to skip months of hard work. even if Warframe had the best next-gen, interactive, smart AI, dynamically changing open-world, players would still ignore it if the option is present to them. Notice that lots of games that are praised for their environment is because players are forced to trudge through it? Skyrim, Fallout, Dark Souls/Bloodborne/Sekiro.

I just believe overall, Warframe needs to step back and look at it's baseline. What is the "normal" speed of the game and how much faster should "fast" be relative to that baseline. No matter what, I think K-Drives will always be a second-rate gimmick. And you know what? I'm completely okay with that. I'm completely okay with K-Drives being understandably inferior to Archwings and there being zero incentives to use it outside taking it for a piss around. I won't push that gimmicks are objectively good for a game, but for me personally as a player, I admire the small things a game does.

But I'm off-track so let me digress in summary. I do agree K-Drives could use a bit more utility. However I'm against a speed buff. If you at least agree with that, then I think we are on the same page about that much.

[Benour]

Even if they nerf itzal there is few frames that can travel very fast so its not gonna change much. I run nova/zephyr in planes/valis anyway. But yeah having itzal teleport trough map like crazy is nice feature. Also its not going to stop ppl rushing from point A to point B and do bounties as fast as possible. So it pretty much solves nothing. And kdrives are simply waste of resources (just like lunaro) hate that garbage but thats just my opinion. 

[Jinzanami]

Just now, Goodwill said:

 

Again, I'll agree with your suggestion to buff the utility of K-drives, got nothing against that. I just think that a lot of players don't realize how fast we are already moving. Hell, we even make Sonic games look slow. My personal opinion is that Warframe should chill on the nitro and just cruise a bit.

My hope is that Railjack will be the Archwing rework the game needs. Although my expectations are in check and to be honest, I am erring more on the side that it won't be released as optimal as players would like. However, I'm all for Railjack because I miss Battlefront 2's (not EA) space battles and having something similar to that I will be content with.

As I brought up previously, DE is stuck in a conundrum. Right now (as of the recent Devstream) everyone wants everything to go fast. But if people are zipping through the maps, there is zero incentives for DE to design good maps or even consider fleshing them out when it's too easy for players to skip months of hard work. even if Warframe had the best next-gen, interactive, smart AI, dynamically changing open-world, players would still ignore it if the option is present to them. Notice that lots of games that are praised for their environment is because players are forced to trudge through it? Skyrim, Fallout, Dark Souls/Bloodborne/Sekiro.

I just believe overall, Warframe needs to step back and look at it's baseline. What is the "normal" speed of the game and how much faster should "fast" be relative to that baseline. No matter what, I think K-Drives will always be a second-rate gimmick. And you know what? I'm completely okay with that. I'm completely okay with K-Drives being understandably inferior to Archwings and there being zero incentives to use it outside taking it for a piss around. I won't push that gimmicks are objectively good for a game, but for me personally as a player, I admire the small things a game does.

But I'm off-track so let me digress in summary. I do agree K-Drives could use a bit more utility. However I'm against a speed buff. If you at least agree with that, then I think we are on the same page about that much.

you gotta lower your hype for Railjack bro, because that thing gonna stink.

and yes good example with Dark souls/Bloodborne, you're not forced to explore them like DE want us to do, you genuinely do so because the world design is so wholesome and polished so even if you have a speed hack you will feel like you're cheating yourself out of the enjoyment of the game, i never feel that way when i use my blink with the valleys and that tell you something.

[Inquizitor]

Agreed.

K-Drives are without the doubt the worst feature warframe had so far.

And i am telling that from experience, even with fully modded K-Drives, and with the Arcane for Operator, the Magus Drive, which adds 100% movement speed for pity 20 seconds.

Default K-Drive movement speed should be at least doubled, or the speed-mods should be improved way better, or make the Magus Drive permanent (such as it would last until end of mission, or until hopped off the k-drive, instead of 20 seconds)....

And if you think this would break the races, dont think about it, they are pointless anyways, i made record score among 4 of them, only to realize these scores resets weekly.

 

But boi, i will keep using K-Drive, until i get that ******* ******** useless pointless meaningless horrid achievement: Drive 1 000 000 m with these things.

[SneakyErvin]

42 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

No, I meant, nerf Itzal and already people have a crapton more options. Even before the nerf has been put in place, people are already figuring out they can simply replace Itzal with either the Void Dash, or Nova's Wormhole, or Volt's ridiculous speed, or heck, Itzal itself, cause it's still the fastest archwing. That's 4 different choices as opposed to Itzal being the ONLY choice when it came to fast movement across the open worlds. Goal achieved right there.

So what you say about "more options" isnt true, because Itzal will still be the optimal choice. The only place where it may see less use is if someone plays Nova or Zephyr for bounties, but that is the exact same as now.

So a nerf would bring exactly what? Nothing. Other Archwings and K-Drives would still be pointless if you have an Itzal and you'd use the same 4 choices as now i.e Itzal, Void, Zeph and Nova (no Volt doesnt make the list because he cant even outrun the slowest archwing that is using afterburners).

[Lhudge]

il y a 44 minutes, (XB1)Cubic Clem a dit :

I sincerely hope they Nerf it. Just to show everyone who's the boss muahahahaha 

They took my void, so now it's time they take stuff from you guys 😉 have fun!

This

[Jinzanami]

Just now, ludo3009 said:

This

This .i.

[_JustSomeone_]

to be honest, if they nerf itzal i would just go back to my zephyr instead of using a boring k-drive😛

[lnfine]

44 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

No, I meant, nerf Itzal and already people have a crapton more options. Even before the nerf has been put in place, people are already figuring out they can simply replace Itzal with either the Void Dash, or Nova's Wormhole, or Volt's ridiculous speed, or heck, Itzal itself, cause it's still the fastest archwing. That's 4 different choices as opposed to Itzal being the ONLY choice when it came to fast movement across the open worlds. Goal achieved right there.

Yeah. Right. Let's remove fast travel while we are at it, so now you could run to Konzu with any frame or even operator instead of using the only really viable option of fast travel.

I mean archwings bring nothing to open world besides movement. You don't use abilities, you don't shoot, you just go from A to B the fastest way because the act of going itself is a chore, an unskippable cutscene. It's an awesome and unimaginatively meaningful choice of selecting the subway wagon you're going to ride. Ahh, the options.

I used to zephyr all the plains before unlimited archwing works hit. I'm probably gonna zephyr all the plains during the day (because now I'll have no choice what frame to bring) and void dash all the plains during the night (because, while it'll eat me of all the pizzas, I already have no choice what frame to bring for eidolons) if they pop archwing kneecaps.

The abuse of itzal for open world movement is a non issue. It's like an abuse of forks for eating, so we should nerf forks to make spoons, chopsticks and eating barehanded viable options. I mean who the hell cares? Unless your purpose in life is eating. It's a goddamned QoL stuff, not performance. It's the vacuum of traveling.

Or, rather, the issue is that itzal is the only way to make open world travel less suicide inducing (besides specific frames).

[XenMaster]

Already suggest the idea of "buff the weak, dont nerf the strong".

[XenMaster]

If Itzal's Blink get nerfed, do DE think players gonna use other archwings? No.

Buff the Speed mod and reduce anti archwing mechanic. No one gonna use Archwings other than Itzal (for speed) if enemy has hitscan and oneshot homing anti archwing.

[Jinzanami]

2 minutes ago, lnfine said:

Yeah. Right. Let's remove fast travel while we are at it, so now you could run to Konzu with any frame or even operator instead of using the only really viable option of fast travel.

I mean archwings bring nothing to open world besides movement. You don't use abilities, you don't shoot, you just go from A to B the fastest way because the act of going itself is a chore, an unskippable cutscene. It's an awesome and unimaginatively meaningful choice of selecting the subway wagon you're going to ride. Ahh, the options.

I used to zephyr all the plains before unlimited archwing works hit. I'm probably gonna zephyr all the plains during the day (because now I'll have no choice what frame to bring) and void dash all the plains during the night (because, while it'll eat me of all the pizzas, I already have no choice what frame to bring for eidolons) if they pop archwing kneecaps.

The abuse of itzal for open world movement is a non issue. It's like an abuse of forks for eating, so we should nerf forks to make spoons, chopsticks and eating barehanded viable options. I mean who the hell cares? Unless your purpose in life is eating. It's a goddamned QoL stuff, not performance. It's the vacuum of traveling.

Or, rather, the issue is that itzal is the only way to make open world travel less suicide inducing (besides specific frames).

this is some cold hard truth, good metaphors too .
but DE know very well they have an army of meatloaf eater who will defend and eat they're crap with no objection, they nothing to worry about it if they implement this pro grindfest time-gate move.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

This is just vacuum all over again.

if Itzal is the most used archwing they have to look at why and address that, not address Itzal.

I suspect Itzal only became most used once the  the open worlds happened. It’s ideal for covering large distances quickly. It’s the best tool for the job. Plus it’s easier to collect eidolon/orb loot. The second point highlights what frustrates players about some of DEs design choices. They make that loot unaffected by vacuum/fetch but then complain when all players use another tool to collect it efficiently.

in actual archwing missions though other ‘wings can be better choices, depending on mission type and player skill.

K drives need their own niche. They need to give players an alternative, a real choice. “Shall I use an archwing and get there fast or use a K drive and X”. They need to find that X, the reason to use it over an archwing. They already have the fun factor with the tricks and all but obviously that’s not enough for some players who want utility more than fun.

Edited April 6, 2019 by (PS4)obsidiancurse

[thor_sten]

I wont abbandon Archwings for K-Drives, because I just don't like the way their control scheme feels. Or let me stat it this way: Flying over obstacles is always faster than crashing into them.

And for the open plains, Itzal will still be my mainstay, because, even if they cut Itzals Teleport, it's still the fastest Archwing and the only one with vaccuum, so it's still got the best utility for most missions.

If they allow the operator to use a K-Drive, while keeping the ability to void-dash, I might be tempted to give them a try again, but until then, I'll perhaps grind for some Ventkids-Standing but otherwise it'll stay with Ordis.

[JackHargreav]

How many times you want to whine about something that we don't even know if It's gonna happen?

Edited April 6, 2019 by JackHargreav

[lnfine]

1 minute ago, XenMaster said:

Already suggest the idea of "buff the weak, dont nerf the strong".

It's useless. There's no way to buff K-Drives that will unsuck them.

Because the issue with K-Drives is you are trying to skateboard over a bunch of bloody rocks. Skateboards suck at rock climbing races by design.

If you want to unsuck K-Drives you need to give them some other purpose rather than moving from A to B. Or make the act of moving itself worthwhile, rewarding, enjoyable, whatever.

[Azamagon]

IF they are gonna nerf Itzal's Blink in any way, I hope they do it gently, and actually buff up the other underwhelming stuff, as well.

Like:

• Itzal's Blink now has a 5 second cooldown (to tone down the mobility-superiority a bit).
• Itzal's Blink now leaves behind an afterimage, working as a decoy, on the spot you teleported away from, for 3 seconds (to give it another use other than mobility / Anti-AW-missile-dodging)
• Afterburners on all Archwings are now all quite a bit faster (meant as an "equilizer" change)
• Many damage-foused Archwing abilities now partially deal True damage (i.e. shield/armor-ignoring) (<- I suggested this YEARS ago, btw).
• K-Drive sprint speed is now SIGNIFICANTLY faster (to make them better as mobility tools) - prior to mods (The K-Drive mods just makes this even faster!)
• You can now use all non-grounding and non-Exalted Warframe abilities freely while on a K-Drive! Exalted abilities and grounding Warframe abilities are still useable, but using them will dismount you from the K-Drive (Grounding abilities are those abilities that now pull Warframes down to the ground to be cast, like Rhino Stomp, Soundquake etc).
  Actually, considering the recent "cast in air"-changes, I wouldn't be surprised if this happened to make K-Drives look more appealing.

See? Wasn't hard to equalize this without butchering Itzal entirely...

Edited April 6, 2019 by Azamagon

[JackHargreav]

K-drives have nothing to do with this. Itzal is the only Archwing that is used to travel fast. That's it. And if they nerf that one ability? Do you seriously think that an archwing should be used only for one ability or something?

[thor_sten]

Allow the Operator to use K-Drive while keeping the abilty to void dash and they MIGHT have a little chance to be used more often, otherwise: flying over obstacles is always faster then driving around them, so unless they remove Archwings...

[Jinzanami]

6 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

K-drives have nothing to do with this. Itzal is the only Archwing that is used to travel fast. That's it. And if they nerf that one ability? Do you seriously think that an archwing should be used only for one ability or something?

go to the valleys and use elytron to farm bounty and lets see how that would speed up or help with your grind, you have no idea of what you're talking about my dear, so lurk more.

[TeaVice]

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

What a surprise, the Itzal nerf is gonna do exactly what it's intended to, give people MORE OPTIONS! I like how you guys are digging yourselves deeper and deeper into the ground, making the Itzal nerf sound more and more reasonable with each post.

It doesnt give people more options as its not providing anything, more options provides just that, MORE OPTIONS. Nerfing itzal only does one thing, removes one option.

The other options still exist, they just arent ideal since BETTER options (itzal) are available.

 

[JackHargreav]

Just now, Jinzanami said:

go to the valleys and use elytron to farm bounty and lets see how that would speed up or help with your grind, you have no idea of what you're talking about my dear, so lurk more.

I actually use K-drives both in Cetus and Vallis even when I'm grinding. Because you know... I just like to chill out. Unlike you. Who completely went bonkers over an ability getting nerfed.

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

Yeah so, railjack is coming, and itzal's getting a speed nerf?

Are they buffing other parts of the itzal or did they make it a slow moving tissue paper target?

Nerfs should only come when things are overpowered.  The itzal is not over powered, it's just more convenient.  It's not like it's Zenurik or plague zaws.

People don't like the K drives.  Why fight the sun coming up in the east?  What member of DE loves these stupid things so much that they'll nerf something that works?