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Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

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Posted (edited)

- (Wrong comment on post sorry)

Edited by Archforge

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jinzanami said:

you gotta lower your hype for Railjack bro, because that thing gonna stink.

and yes good example with Dark souls/Bloodborne, you're not forced to explore them like DE want us to do, you genuinely do so because the world design is so wholesome and polished so even if you have a speed hack you will feel like you're cheating yourself out of the enjoyment of the game, i never feel that way when i use my blink with the valleys and that tell you something.

I can't really lower my hype for Railjack any lower than it is. I have expectations, that's different from hype.

And there are plenty of people who skip all the lore and world-building in Souls/Bloodborne/Sekiro. Most of the videos I watched of it just have people skipping fluff text, cutscenes, and just going from point A to B. I'm sure if they'd have the option, they'd fly over to objectives if such an option was available just so they fight bosses. Face it, people will play the game how they want when given the options.

Edited by Goodwill

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12 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

The real point to nerfing Itzal is so that people equipped with the Amesha, Odonata, or Elytron aren't absolutely left in the dust.  The Itzal is light years ahead of them in terms of speed, and that's the problem.  At the very basic level, Scott does not want there to be a "end all, be all" option for anything.  If such a thing exists, it's broken and needs reined in.

 

They created that condition themselves and they continue to make the same mistakes.

Remember when the slightest damage would knock you out of Archwing? They intended for it to be good for nothing but travel from the start then gradually decided to let them function a little. Yet there's still little reason to layer them into normal frame use.

Take Wolf as a recent example. He's immune to status, immune to CC, Layered DR, Alloy Armor + Alloy Health.

  • X  CC
  • X  Ability damage
  • X  Status weapons
  • X  Ability debuff
  • X  Finishers
  • X  Barriers / Shields
  • X  Anything but Radiation Damage

So we are left with. Radiation, Damage buffs, eHP. Hundreds of combinations between frames and weapons reduced to a handful of choices.

They did similar with Eidolons and they'll prolly keep making the same decisions then blaming it on something else.

They need to get to work on Damage 3.0 so the eHP gap, layered DR & Debuffs, Scaling, CC and all this other crap they're desperately trying to avoid in attempts to present challenge can be reeled in and they don't have to resort to these flat out dumb designs.

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Il y a 4 heures, Gabbynaru a dit :

What a surprise, the Itzal nerf is gonna do exactly what it's intended to, give people MORE OPTIONS! I like how you guys are digging yourselves deeper and deeper into the ground, making the Itzal nerf sound more and more reasonable with each post.

How itzal nerf is going to give more option since you're removing the one people have choose to use?

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Do recall that Archwings exists beyond just racing against K-Drives to get to a destination. There is a question be had on the functionality of Blink in relation to its effect and cost.

If you think about this, the thought might have originally stemmed from Itzal's function in Railjacks. You see this problem with the Jordas Golem being reduced to nothing from a single Itzal warping behind him constantly or reaching the Formorian in seconds after the mission starts.

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Just now, Chaosdreamer said:

How itzal nerf is going to give more option since you're removing the one people have choose to use?

Because Itzal is the only option at the moment. Sure, you lose one by nerfing Itzal, but that brings all other Archwing, as well as Void Dash, Nova and all the other things mentioned in this thread into the fold. -1(Itzal)+6(AW, Void Dash, Nova)=5 new options.

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Scott is stubborn and while he makes a decent point, he also hides behind it.

This is what happens when a developer gets arrogant about their work and prioritizes making you play the way he wants you to, rather than letting you use the tools however you want; They start saying things like "enjoy it while it lasts".
I'll bet you that he's the reason it took so long for vaccuum to be universal, because that was supposed to be a "choice". This is no different, it's obvious that players shouldn't spend several minutes travelling across the same map over and over again.

By the way this is a criticism, not an insult. I understand full well when players who are too smart for their own good start messing with what you've created and are effectively mocking you by breaking it over and over again. Eventually you realize that a playerbase is like a natural disaster, you can't really prevent or mitigate it, you just let it pass and rebuild. Also lets not pretend that the warframe playerbase doesn't adore and almost worship its devs and staff.

Back to the archwing: The difference between this and vaccuum was that there was literally no alternative choice. With the itzal you are paying for it with research, materials and a lot of energy AND you have alternatives that might be slower, but are still a hell of a lot faster than walking.

Taking things away from players should not be treated like a joke, I was god damn furious when I saw the stream. I did not put in all the effort into getting and leveling all the archwings to be treated like some sort of entitled child, because I don't want to spend minutes of flight time every time I have to do something in the Vallis.

I didn't wan't the open world areas, I think they're the worst things to happen to the game. PoE burnt me out and so did Fortuna. I came back despite of these places, their idiotic reputation grinds and new materials that invalidated all the time I already invested into the game.

Leveling k-drives, archwings, operator amps and pets/sentinals is less a game feature than an exhausting chore to get a higher MR. Getting all those things requires my precious time and reducing that amount of time to get the things done is a priority. "Enjoy it while it lasts" when I don't always use the itzal (I do actually use the k-drives, even though they're bugged in a couple of ways), is an ignorant and petty thing to say.

Nerf the Itzal if you want, but this will cost you significant goodwill with the playerbase for a petty reason disguised as a "good design" argument. Imagine having spent platinum on it an having this happen to you, good lord...

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11 hours ago, SageVonAwesome said:

If they want to make Archwings to be 'good' on open world content they would have to first removed spammable 1-hit-Archwing-KOing homing rockets from literally all the enemies. Without doing that they will always be good only for being taxis.

Without blink Itzal will still be the best taxi because of it's higher base speed, which can be increased with mods. Nerfing/replacing blink does not increase player choice, so regardless of their stated reason such a nerf only slows down the process of traveling around open world maps.

And even if they were joking about K-Drives; K-Drives will always be worse taxis because of ground geometry. If they want players to use them they would need to get rid of the pointless trick mechanics and make them combat capable and faster than walking/bullet jump spamming when in the open world.

I agree that not every enemy should be able to take out an Archwing instantly. Either make the 1-shot rocket only on elites, or make it take several rockets to actually take down the 'wing. 

I'm fine with Iztal being the best taxi, but it shouldn't be the best taxi by such a huge margin. A higher base speed is one thing, but the blinks blow every other Archwing out of the water, to the point where it sets the precedent. 

What I think they should do is drastically increase the speed of "warp speed"  (Shift + Space on PC) for all Archwings, but lock out abilities during it. This would only affect atmospheric usage. Along with changes to the Iztal, this would put every Archwing at the Iztal's level, so travel in the open world areas isn't slowed down as a result of these changes. 

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Il y a 15 heures, Xzorn a dit :

What we have now is one option and one choice. Nerfing said choice won't help. Adding more options will.

Very interesting post but you end it with that. 

You have as many options as you have different archwings and as many possible choices as you are able to imagine /create your own game experience. 

All other archwings are still faster than k-drive that is itself faster than going on foot. Are the few seconds that you gain with itzal the only point that makes players chose the itzal instead of any other possibility? If this is the case, this is more the representation of the players mindsets and the way they play games today than a real lack of alternatives. 

I don't need itzal to enjoy vallis or poe. I never use itzal and I create a different game experience each time I enter poe or vallis with all the other archwings. 

The Itzal case is once again the prove that the way players are playing games today is more about how to not play the game and make everything fast and easy. They enter a mission and just look for the way to end it as fast as possible with nothing between point A and point B. 

More options will be mandatory if they want to make things enjoyable for that kind of players. I agree on that. 

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12 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Because Itzal is the only option at the moment. Sure, you lose one by nerfing Itzal, but that brings all other Archwing, as well as Void Dash, Nova and all the other things mentioned in this thread into the fold. -1(Itzal)+6(AW, Void Dash, Nova)=5 new options.

Good point. But maths is hard for some people, so it may fall on deaf ears. :wink:

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I'd like to remind people about the Jordas Golem. If you don't understand what this has to do with the Itzal, think about it in relation to the upcoming Railjack. If you still don't get it, you don't understand how deeply rooted the potential problem is.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Because Itzal is the only option at the moment. Sure, you lose one by nerfing Itzal, but that brings all other Archwing, as well as Void Dash, Nova and all the other things mentioned in this thread into the fold. -1(Itzal)+6(AW, Void Dash, Nova)=5 new options.

 This logic is pretty dumb. It ignores a lot about the reality of how the game plays out in regards to K-Drives.

 I don't regularly use Itzal. I use Odonata Prime mostly. It matters exactly 0 which Archwing you use. Regardless of Archwing the fact remains that Archwing beats K-Drive because 'Flying over' > 'Driving around'.

 Itzal is the best option if you want to save 4-5 second increments in your grind but ultimately even that doesn't matter much. 

 In Archwing:

  • You can nearly instantly leave an unwanted or superfluous fight.
  • You can shoot your guns.
  • You have a kit of skills.
  • You can fly over any potential conflict.
  • You can fly directly to a goal.

 All of the above remain true regardless of choice of archwing.

Meanwhile K-Drives:

  • Slower than archwing, meaning slower retreats from unwanted fights.
  • You cannot attack in a meaningful way. (There are damaging mods but I've never seen any suggestion that they scale well enough to be better than even a basic gun.)
  • You can going to have to wind around things to reach your goal. There are no cheeky ways to get past a mountain in only a second or two.

 

 Itzal being able to teleport certainly takes a dump on K-Drives. Undeniably. But that is probably because K-Drives already can't hold a candle to literally being able to fly and shoot.

Edited by Blatantfool

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20 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Because Itzal is the only option at the moment. Sure, you lose one by nerfing Itzal, but that brings all other Archwing, as well as Void Dash, Nova and all the other things mentioned in this thread into the fold. -1(Itzal)+6(AW, Void Dash, Nova)=5 new options.

They aren't options. In fact Void Dash and Nova are still valid options and at least Nova is still faster than Itzal in practice, it's just Itzal gives you an option to bring any other frame than Nova.

Nerfing itzal to put it in line with other AWs movement wise is like saying "here are 4 puddings - blue, green, red and yellow. They all taste the same though, and there's no difference besides colour". That's not options because there's no difference. There's no difference between AWs for open world besides speed, and making them all the same speed makes them no different from each other for the purpose of moving around in open world. They might as well be different itzal skins at that point. Here's your red Nova and blue Nova - you now have options.

Yes, Itzal is overrepresented in open world. It's not because itzal speed too high plz nurf. It's because nobody needs anything besides speed, and itzal happens to be good at it at the expense of things that are useless in open world.

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4 minutes ago, HexOmega111x said:

Very interesting post but you end it with that. 

You have as many options as you have different archwings and as many possible choices as you are able to imagine /create your own game experience.

 

The option is Travel.

The choice is best at Travel because Travel is the only option.

I should have said "One option and one Obvious choice"  but I felt that was implied.

It's perfectly fine to play at your own pace and stop to look at the scenery but you also have to remember in the end Warframe is a farming game. This has more recently been reinforced to the game's detriment by having players repeatedly perform the same task over and over until a result is achieved instead of simply playing and getting a result as you play. Click the bounty go, Click the bounty go. Kill the same boss over and over again. It becomes quite tedious and so eventually that Efficiency bug bites us. I didn't use Archwing at all when PoE first came out. I ran everywhere like I do in games like Skyrim. I almost never fast travel but eventually that fades.

A lot of it is DE's development approach of "Spam the mission" instead of play the mission. Most rewards these days are results of a singular task.

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Buff K-drive speed and remove the annoyance that is falling off them. Problem solved.

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So... is it some kind of sore spot for DE that we don't use K-Drives much?  I mean... K-Drives don't have the potential to be a big money maker for DE, right?  I mean, not like rivens or something.  Y'know... cuz folks buy a lot of plat to spend on rivens... so... y'know... rivens were a smart addition on DE's part from a marketing standpoint... and... y'know... I applaud that because they have to make a profit somewhere or... y'know... no game for anyone.  But it's not like K-Drives would ever be a big source of money.  I mean.... I don't really see how you'd spend a lot of plat on K-Drives.  Okay, so what I'm getting at is this: why should DE care so much whether we use them or not?!  Like, I'm legitimately asking.  This isn't just a rhetorical, angry thing.  I'm really trying to understand why they would even care so much.  What difference does it make whether we use friggin' K-Drives? 

I personally love the K-Drive for goofing around.  Few things in this game bring me as much joy as loading up a free roam map in the captura, blasting my board off a high cliff, doing a sick nose grab, and then letting myself crash to the ground, wipe out hard and ragdoll down the hillside for half a mile.  That's one of the best things they ever added to the game.  Who would have ever thought that this game could become a little Grand Theft Auto on the side?  I never saw that coming, but I love it.  But for practical use during missions?  Nope.  Duh.  Of course not.  And that's fine!  I put a lot of work into my archwing, anyway, and it's ideal for free roam.  It's tons of fun.  What's wrong with that?!  I genuinely do not understand why DE care so much whether we use K-Drives.  It's just an optional side thing.  Is it like the end of frickin world or something?

I don't even use Itzal myself, but now I'm starting to worry that they are going to systematically nerf every possible way of moving until K-Drives are the fastest and easiest way to get around in the entire game.  Please just leave it alone, DE.  It's all fine the way it is.  You wanna give K-Drives more or different abilities to incentivize them?  I'd be cool with that.  But don't wreck other stuff.

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2 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

To add, if they want us to use K-Drives more, make K-Drives part of combat then!

How about wielding melee while on K-Drive and slashing enemies while we speed past them, sorta like horseback cavalry but in a more... space ninja swag manner?

10/10 support

I want to feel like a purse snatcher stealing a Heavy Gunner's handbag XD

  • Haha 1

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Zephyr does the work too, very well.

But you have to take her.

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2 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

There are plenty of other ways of making other Archwings desirable for Orb/PoE or K-Drives. it's simply easier to just nerf Itzal and call it a day, pat themselves on the back and say they tried.

Except Itzal's blink is always gonna be the easiest and fastest way to travel. So You can't just buff Archwings up to Itzal's level.

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2 hours ago, Hawner said:

 It can be used as a way to ress a friend by stopping quickly to his location and stopping right there without a problem. ^^

You can also just hold down X. Even if you're sprinting in archwing, you'll automatically stop and start the reviving process once you touch the downed teammate

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Posted (edited)

I just all my frames on PoE for Sprint Speed then stack it with Amalgam Serration then use Naramon to traverse large distances.... I move faster on foot then anyone on K-Drives. 

Edited by Lutesque

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il y a 3 minutes, Xzorn a dit :

"Spam the mission" instead of play the mission.

Yes, interesting again. But this is exactly what warframe is and has always been. If you express it that way, it means that this is how you feel the game or how some game mechanics prevents you to have a different approach of it. 

This is definitely not about who is right or who is playing the game in a wiser manner. But from DE perspective, I can understand that they want to give more meanings to the other tools they give to the players. They are just making it the wrong way. Sometimes. And sometimes players are overreacting. I can't imagine that this itzal nerf will ruin your entire open world experience. 

Now, I hope that they will not stop there and enhance or increase the usefulness of the archwing feature in a more global way for the open world areas. Itzal is just a part of it after all. 

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3 hours ago, Jinzanami said:

so how exactly should've i play POA when it was released in your opinion ? if i am farming for an Eidlon lens or Augur secrets should i use itzal blink/void dash or should i walk on foot so i can enjoy every rock and tree i come across after i done that bounty for 99th time ? 

why was not this a problem until now ? hm ? why ? and i can see that you enjoy to piss off others and i have the same mode swings sometimes, its the reason i am banned from overwatch until 9 of this month lol, i like to make drama.

Why should I tell you? I'm not you.

And I already told you that I use K-drives even when I'm grinding for stuff. So You can't tell me that Itzal is a necessity.

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