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Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

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1 minute ago, Maka.Bones said:

I'm fine with that. But they'll probably do the same for everyone so you'll also have to deal with that issue xD

Oh xd 

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DE should remove Volts speed because it let's us run past all the content in regular missions. They should nerf any frame with invulnerability because it let's us ignore all the content. Stealth also needs to get removed because it let's us sneak past all the content. 

Even if our goal isn't to fight so we can quickly get to the content we want to play, we should still be forced to do all the boring unrelated stuff in-between.

Oh and Archwing is still too useful so DE should make it so you can NEVER stop unless you crash into something just so it's that much more annoying. 

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7 hours ago, Xavori said:

Please leave the frakkin' Itzal the hell alone.  Instead, fix all the reasons people don't spend more time with the other vehicles.

Itzal is capable of flying and therefore ignoring the terrain, at the very least, along with literally just skipping travel time. There is literally nothing you could do the K-Drives to change this fact. Stop this, you aren't this stupid and neither is DE. Feigning ignorance is not a good look.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jinzanami said:

we need to boycott the game if they implemented this, Anthem player base did it and it worked and we can do it too

Except Anthem is owned by greedy, Evil As*hat companies. I'm against this nerf without a purpose, but from there to actually boycott it's a long distance.

Besides, there's been way worse stuff and such a thing never happens here. It's just some love/hate relationship bouts between the community and DE and in the end either they listen or we accept. 

However, despite being against a senseless nerf generated by K-Drive hype, which will solve nothing and probably make things worse, I am sure that DE is capable of coming up with a good trade-off. My only concern is that they are being rash about this, nerfing Itzal based on the one thing it's good at in open worlds without considering how we also use Amesha and Elytron a lot in space, and before Railjack even exists.

Because if they end up ruining Itzal by any chance expect a buff only in 2 years, when it's been neglected to a point where people even forget it exists.

Edited by (PS4)Pauloluisx

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That's like saying using Khoras 3 when it gave affinity to instantly level all your weapons is a strategy. 

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6 hours ago, Fishyflakes said:

Amesha 3 isn't Garbage it's a Nova slow your modding is probably Garbage though didn't read after that :vomit:

Nah, lies, it is to keep the energy pool somewhat empty so the 4 can keep you INVINCIBLE.

That being said, there is no reason to nerf Itzal.

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il y a 15 minutes, Xzorn a dit :

It actually hasn't been in the past. Not nearly to the extreme it is now at least.

Well, I wasn't around at that time, you know this game better than I do. But what is strange then is that some recent moves from DE tent to show that they are struggling to found a better balance. Like if they realise now that they crossed the line. The last exemple to date is the arcanes change. Which was initiated with Fortuna. 

It is hard to understand DE on a global picture but what I know for sure is that they always want to make things good or right. As I see it, the decisions they made in the past were the decisions that made warframe the awesome game it is today.

Indeed, it have a lot of flaws. It is a mess in its structure and this is maybe why they have a hard time to found a way to maintain an identity to something that is nothing else than a lot of different layers they glued together with some lore tricks. That said, I realy love this game despite all that. 

I think that the community should prepare itself to face many other changes that will not please them because this is the only way for DE to rebalance the game. Layers after layers. 

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Nope, this is not a letter. It's a forum post. In the wrong sub section of the forum, even.

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8 hours ago, Xavori said:

In the case of archwings, first you need to make the flying better.  I don't care if momentum is a real thing.  I don't care that space doesn't create atmospheric drag to make it easier to stop.  What I care about is that holy frak is archwing flying annoying.  And the missions...blech.

The momentum in archwing doesn't even work. Here's an experiment: sprint north, then start coasting, then aim down sights at a target in the south. You'll start coasting SOUTH, instantaneously, with no regard to momentum. Oh, but if you want to stop moving, THEN suddenly the brakes follow the laws of physics, THEN you have to hit the retrorockets to arrest all your momentum

It's just so broken, and is one of the two reasons why air-to-surface combat doesn't work. I mean this busted momentum is in play in space missions too, but space dogfighting is all about space jousting in the first place so we never noticed

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"Itzal is better than all other archwings and it's too strong"

Itzal isn't better than the other archwings, the others don't have a place. Itzal fixes the 2 major problems of archwing, movement and loot. With itzal you can stop on demand with it's 2, while all other archwings either have to slow down to a stop or smash itself into a wall to kill it's momentum. As for loot, the innate vacuum range is horrible while Itzal is able to pull in more loot at a much larger range with it's 3. When a game is all about loot, and there is only one way to get loot. People use it. Remember when Vacuum was only usable on Carrier?

 

With that being said, most archwings have some use when it comes to archwing missions. Odonata is meh but is the best option for killing Jordas because it has a damage buff, and it is in the most need of a rework. Elytron is best for eviscerating enemies, and Amesha is best as a support role and for defense missions. The problem is that support roles in Warframe is mostly useless aside in from specific scenarios when it comes to farming. So Amesha won't be used much.

 

"Itzal is the only used archwing in open world"
As it should be in the current situation, DE has made both factions in the open world have instantaneous ways to disable the players archwing via anti-air rockets that upon damaging you, rips you out of archwing. This makes all archwings (aside from Amesha because it has invulnerability and can avoid the anti-air) for in-combat scenarios useless. Hell, the latest "tactical alert" we had I used Amesha, and how did I play. I ran up to the coolant, pressed 4 spammed my 2 about 2-3 times. Then flew off 50m behind a rock to avoid the missles.

 

Let's imagine if you could use archwing in combat. Elytron's damage is only useful vs archwing enemies because of how severely nerfed they are. Archwing enemies are a joke, they do no damage and have no health or armor. If you ever played The Jordas Verdict you would have seen level 80 archwing enemies and laughed at them for being a joke. When you take the current enemies with scaling and armor, and then reduce Elytron's range to a insignificant range. Take into account that enemies in open world spread out a lot, and further more that Elytrons main source of damage, it's nuke, has damage fall off. There is no wonder why no one plays Elytron. It does no damage, has no range, and is overall useless in open world. Odonata is again too niche to be useful, and Amesha is fine if you want to sit in a bubble and snipe things. But most of the time you'd rather just swap to Warframe and have fun using abilities melee and guns.

 

Because of these situations, it's no wonder people only use archwing for transportation. And guess what is by design, the fastest archwing? Itzal.

 

"But Itzal is faster than K-Drive!!!"

And? What is your point? Realistically when you take into account that K-Drive is on the ground having to deal with ever changing terrain. Where you have to turn, jump, and navigate around. Of course the thing that flies through the air would be faster. Just like in real life, airplanes are faster than a car. And yes, I know we're in a game. So why not make K-Drive faster? And be able to keep up with most archwings? It shouldn't compete with Itzal blink(Because as design it should be the fastest thing in the game), but it should compete with archwings sprinting. Nerfing Itzal to be more in-line with other archwings or K-Drives just further asks the question "But isn't that suppose to be Itzal's identity? The fastest, sneaky, and squishy archwing?" Why not make archwing's more usable in open world combat, and K-Drives faster (If this was really a real point and not a joke) than nerf the identity of an archwing that has had no problems for years until recently. That way you promote more use of other archwings, and people who love K-Drives get to go faster.

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I had to copy this from another topic that got removed as I was writing this post. Anyway...

Scott mentioned that the Itzal is overbearing in the vehicle department and that it is a bit of a problem. In my opinion, that is because this is a complaint about a very specific job, and a very specific tool that was crafted very specifically for the purpose of handling that job.

The problem isn't the Itzal, and it doesn't deserve nerfing. The problem is that vehicles have no application outside of mobility. No one goes into a Tridolon hunt with the idea of bringing an Amesha for support, no one goes into Profit Taker with an Elytron for damage. Archwings and K-Drives are ONLY for movement, and as such, the most mobile arch-wing will be the best tool available.

Changing blink will not change this. The Itzal still has a higher base movespeed and as such is still objectively the best tool for getting around. If the devs want to make the K-Drives compete, they need to do so by incorporating vehicles into combat. 

For Archwings, this -should- already be done via their own missions, but the problem there is that those missions are awful. The massive scale of distance in those fights means it's actually quite difficult to get work done. Aiming is a ton harder and AoE doesn't work nearly as well. Underwater Archwing, on the flipside, seems to be better spaced out and much more tolerable, which brings us to partial solution #1.

Quote

Incorporate underwater segments into the Plains and the Orb.

This would incentivise players to bring the other Archwings to take advantage of their combat capabilities, as the Itzal's in-combat performance is lacklustre compared to Odonata, Amesha and Elytron.

But forcing players into underwater segments may not be enough. Well, there's another issue: Even if you -wanted- to bring an Archwing into combat on the Plains or the Vallis, you -can't-. Because every enemy and their mother, mother's sister, mother's sister's nanny, mother's sister's nanny's neighbour and mother's sister's nanny's neighbour's dog is carrying anti-air missiles with exceptional accuracy and guaranteed OHKO potential. 

You -can't- do combat in Archwings in the Plains or the Vallis, which renders ALL Archwing abilities obsolete. 

Fixing this is a little more difficult than 'remove the missiles', as that would allow players to sit miles out of harms way and simply snipe hopeless targets for maximum easy mode toroid farming. But I think I have a solution: partial solution #2.

Quote

Anti-air missiles should deal considerably less damage, but apply a long-lasting debuff that drastically hinders flight capabilities.

Leave the Archwing alive, but lower the movespeed, and make it unable to ascend, or unable to ascend above a certain height. This forces players into mutual combat while not also immediately disabling everything else an Archwing has to offer. You want to use Amesha's healing on the Vallis? Now you can.

As for K-drives, these can never properly compete with Archwings for movement since they're bound to much more complicated land routes, but movement is all they have. The fix here is in the last part: Make it so movement is NOT all they have. Partial solution #3.

Quote

K-drive Kinetic Batteries

Imagine an Arcane for your K-drive. Now imagine that it charges up as long as you are riding it around, gaining extra charge for doing tricks and the like. Now imagine that it has a battery with a LOT of capacity. Now imagine that, when you dismount, the kinetic battery uses the stored energy to project a persistent effect.

You could position your K-drive somewhere and have it project an energy regen aura, or a hazardous aura, or a shield, or a healing aura... It could project a wide range of abilities all charged from the movement it took to get where you had to go. This would incentivise players to use K-Drives to benefit from them in ensuing combat areas, particularly in areas where players are meant to hold out. This would open it up to more modifications too, like increased battery capacity, charge speed, power range and efficiency or strength... 

I really don't think nerfing the Itzal will do -anything- but frustrate the playerbase, as it serves no purpose but slow players down. Instead, the devs should look at incentivising other options to make them more viable in other aspects. The Itzal has a job, and it shouldn't be punished for doing that job well. That design philosophy leads to flatlined designs, where nothing is particularly good at anything, for fear of upsetting the other options.

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18 hours ago, Pr1A said:

AFAIK they didn't say anything about removing it altogether, just that they feel like Blink should be nerfed or removed because it's pretty much the biggest reason you rarely see anyone use Archwings other than Itzal.

Not totally true, but when it comes to open world movement you sure wouldn't know it. 

Seriously, when did you see someone using something besides Itzal on PoE or OV? Last time I remember was when I went there straight from an AW defense and forgot to swap the Amesha out for Itzal--and it's entirely because of Blink. 

Itzal has a lot of other utility other than Blink. If it's changed or removed in favor of something new it's not going to make the Itzal useless. 

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1 hour ago, lnfine said:

You do realize blinking with Nova was THE meta for wisp farming since forever and till now when wisps aren't required in industrial volumes anymore.

Yeah and? Nova is not an Archwing. If you use Nova you're limiting your self.

As for Itzal It's exactly this feed it and blink mentality/functionality that I find broken. Even with Nova you have to throw out a portal and sprint instead of just spamming 1 like it's a cookie clicker or something.

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itzal's new skill hyper speed: double thrusters speed to you and allies and stuns nearby enemies in the trail last for 10 seconds there you go problem solved! 😄

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People hate normal AW missions. People hate sharkwing too. The one redeeming feature AW's have gotten is the value they have for getting around the big maps. Itzal doesn't have the best ability weapons, it doesn't have the best ehp or tanking ability. It has only two things going for it; nitrous (press 1), and brakes (press 2). When it comes to getting around a big space, those are more useful than being un-killable in the Amesha, or firing rockets from an Elytron. Those two simple movement abilities make flying around the open maps in an Itzal… wait for it.... actually fun.

That's right DE, after everything AW's been through and all the changes its seen, you've got at least one player who, as bizarre and impossible as this might sound, genuinely enjoys at least one aspect of Archwing. And that should be nerfed, because k-drives suck? The logic behind that makes no sense.

Say you do nerf the Itzal's 1. It will still be faster than any k-drive, as will the other AW's. K-drives will still be miserable to use, because the threshold for what triggers a collision has been broadened to the point where a four inch bump in the hill you're riding up can send you flying like a forty foot ramp. Let's say you nerf AW's in general until they're all as slow as k-drives. We'll use Zephyr, Khora, Volt and Nova to get around the plains and vallis, while the standing gain for k-drives will still be a slog due to what constitutes registering a clean trick getting nerfed to the point where riding over a small rock at the end of your trick chain instantly breaks it.

As for fixing k-drives themselves, there are plenty of threads with common themes.
- Increase their speed. This is obvious. Buffing the speed mods would be a start. Extreme Velocity should affect both base and boosted speed. Nitro Boost should then scale off of that. Currently if you only put Extreme Velocity on, you actually move more slowly when you start boosting, with 23.40 in base speed and 21.00 in "boosted" speed. It really seems like that's something someone should have caught and fixed a while ago.
- Roll back the triggers for crashing and flying off to what they were at launch. This is the biggest problem. Not only are they slow to begin with, you end up wasting even more time waiting for a rag doll animation to end before just relaunching the board. And forget about landing tricks with the current version. Because of how sensitive k-drives are now, as well as the nerfs to the way score is calculated, it makes both tricking and general movement feel worse.
- Double the cap for trick scoring, at least. It's become an annoying chore to grind standing and max them for mastery.

Basically, if you want to make k-drives better, then make k-drives better by buffing k-drives. They need it, and there are several obvious ways to do it. You can't make something better by breaking the fun and usefulness of something else. Then you just have one thing that still needs help and another that's worse now, along with bunch of people that are annoyed that you didn't even bother to fix the thing that needs fixing.
 

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Just now, ShadowExodus said:

Wait DE is nerfing archwing?

They were joking about it on the last stream and Scott said to enjoy it because it was going to go away.
It came up because some one asked about the speed difference when it came to K-Drives.

In my honest opinion they don't need to change either of them, just add risk-reward, aka have more flying enemies that focus on you once you go Arhcwing.



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There was a hole here, now it's gone. I guess...  (╯°Д°)︵ ┻━┻

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2 minutes ago, Ahcruna said:

They were joking about it on the last stream and Scott said to enjoy it because it was going to go away.
It came up because some one asked about the speed difference when it came to K-Drives.

In my honest opinion they don't need to change either of them, just add risk-reward, aka have more flying enemies that focus on you once you go Arhcwing.



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There was a hole here, now it's gone. I guess...  (╯°Д°)︵ ┻━┻

the new ability will be applied to all allies like volt speed with some duration

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Posted (edited)

Well first of all, It's first I'm hearing that they are planning to nerf archwings 0_O....

There's 1 really obvious way to improve k-drive (at least that's the mod I was looking for with 2nd wave of k-drive mods). Make doing tricks while traveling rewarding:

  • Give speed boost (and more crash resistence) when doing tricks. Right now I lose speed (and often trip of something that I don't even consider an obstacle) while doing tricks.
  • Give a reliable way to keep score after landing on the ground. Right now THE ONLY good way to keep score is grinding rail. Jumping immediately after landing is also a way, but it feels more like a bug than a feature, because you lose almost all of momentum on 2nd jump.
  • Split off the visual effect mods (and take away the damage) into their own slots (give 1 or 2 "visual" slots or make them unlockable toggle effects). All elemental mods look awesome and feel awesome to use, but feel like a waste of slot, because damage is worthless, when I need speed, jump height, crash prevention, etc.
Edited by Jitsuryoku

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If the only use for Archwings is using Blink on Itzal, that is not really using Archwings, it's a time skip. That's it. DE has to do something to change that.

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This sounds like total BS. I never understood people's complaint. I can understand that K-Drive feels slow so if that's the case buff the speed or like Jitsuryoku said get a speed boost everytime you do tricks. And the people complaining about this seems like the types that want to get from point A to point B the fastest. So for some reason they scream "Nerf Archwing" because a players wanting to finish the mission quickly is getting to the next area faster than them? 

It's complete BS. Well I still have Zephyr and Nova in the inventory either way, Max range will be the new king of traversal... again.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

If the only use for Archwings is using Blink on Itzal, that is not really using Archwings, it's a time skip. That's it. DE has to do something to change that.

We also only use volt for capture missions for void relics. Which means DE will make itzal into a volt for archwing sharing its buff

Edited by (NSW)Katsuro

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2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

If the only use for Archwings is using Blink on Itzal, that is not really using Archwings, it's a time skip. That's it. DE has to do something to change that.

To be fair, any Arhcwing with maxed Hyperion Thrusters will still outrun any land based mechanics if you use the afterburners.



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There was a hole here, now it's gone. I guess...  (╯°Д°)︵ ┻━┻

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

We also only use volt for capture missions for void relics.

We? You. This is also not even remotely equivalent.

Just now, Ahcruna said:

To be fair, any Arhcwing with maxed Hyperion Thrusters will still outrun any land based mechanics if you use the afterburners.



___________________________________________________
There was a hole here, now it's gone. I guess...  (╯°Д°)︵ ┻━┻

To be fair, there is one part of Itzal that makes it a target and not all the other Archwings.

Edited by peterc3
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2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

We? You. This is also not even remotely equivalent.

statistics show that itzal is the most used archwing in poe but thats because:
1 its the fastest archwing even without blink heck I dont even use it that much outside eidolons which is necessary for tricaps.
2 its the only archwing that can accurately stop in a instant plus gives you invisibility.
3 it can suck up loot which is useful in a large area when farming.
the other archwings do not provide the same benefits that itzal provide for the current meta even if they nerf blink its still better than the rest and wouldn't change players choice away from it making it a meaningless nerf. 

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