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Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

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Posted (edited)

Idk about you, but I only use itzal because it's fastest, it's got blink and skill 3 (forgot the name), which is IDEAL for traveling through large maps. Until I got itzal I also used the defensive one, the immunity skill on eidolons. If you look at combat, all of the archwings are useless (mostly). I'm not sure if it's a big problem, because it's not the only thing in the game that only has 1-2 uses.

As for volt. There's plenty of uses for volt. Eidolons, speed melee builds, aoe skill 4 builds and I see people using them whenever the situation allows it. Somebody choosing not to use volt is not a huge problem that needs to be fixed, because volt is clearly a great frame, that CAN be used almost anywhere.... Unlike some other frames like atlas and wukong, which are so niche, that there are at least 3 other better frames to choose to invest to instead of those 2.

Edited by Jitsuryoku

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I really would hate this change. I'm now getting into Archwings and it would be very disappointing if they removed this ability. K-Drives are what they are, but unless they greatly increase their speed they are not comparable to the speed of the Archwing. 

Nothing's wrong with Teleporting, its a viable traversal mechanic. And so is the K-Drive.

I don't know if anyone ever played City of Heroes but they had far more movement types and they were all comparable, it was a matter of player style and choice.
One was Teleport which remained comparable to SuperSpeed which only allowed running across the terrain. 
 

Another Super Speed VIdeo

And here is a clip from a more recent game, Champions Online which is essentially a new City of Heroes. You'll note that there is a sort of speed ramp up with a meter to get you into Super Speed mode from a sprint. I'm thinking to save on UI time this could just be a double tap on shift (Roll) if that hasn't already been used on K-Drives. 


The height of Jump changed depending on your speed. That allowed for easier traversal at high speed so the user doesn't need to have super reflexes, or think too far ahead on how long to hold the spacebar to jump. 

Teleport moved you forward a set distance (That you could mod using..mods) and then you hung in the air for a few seconds before either falling to the ground, or you used Teleport again. 

 

None of these powers were objectively better than any other, it all came down to player choice and theme. What did they like doing, what fit their character. But in the end everyone reached the same point at roughly the same time in most cases. Some landscapes made Superspeed tough if they were very vertical, but I think you could run up the side of buildings to get to the top and I know that I have K-Drived up extremely steep mountain slopes so that's not a problem. 

I would advocate improving the K-Drive speed rather than removing a beloved feature of the Archwings. Double Tap Shift key could trigger fast Traversal speed mode and still leave regular Shift for tricks. Another thing is performing tricks (front flip twice, jump and spin twice etc. ) could trigger 60-second buffs maybe to energy regen, or health regen, or fire rate that save up and trigger when the player gets off the K-Drive. This would give people a reason to use the k-drives and spread out the player base in what they want to use. If you look further in the Champions online example you will see that different Traversal powers provided buffs/ resistances so again, it became about player choice. 

Any adjustments to any one Archwing should come via a complete overhaul of that system where DE actually balances and improves ALL the Archwings to match both the current state of the game and the reality of the maps, and the capabilities of the player base. (full 6 degrees 3D combat in the style of Descent 3D does not seem to be working for these Tennos). I think the game needs to provide more hand-holding options for Archwing Space/Water fights. 

This is what Archwing Gameplay on some maps remind me of now 

And I'm not sure the Playerbase is up for that. But talking about a rework of this is proably for another post

To Recap, Blink can co-exist with K-Drive. K-Drives speed needs to improve. Please don't remove or nerf Blink. 
I totally dated myself with these examples didn't I 😄 
 

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34 minutes ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

itzal's new skill hyper speed: double thrusters speed to you and allies and stuns nearby enemies in the trail last for 10 seconds there you go problem solved! 😄

And then everyone is still probably going to run the Itzal because you won't know if someone else is going to bring it or not.

The best bet is to make everything else competitive by bringing it up not by knocking the Itzal down. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JackHargreav said:

Yeah and? Nova is not an Archwing. If you use Nova you're limiting your self.

But I thought limiting yourself was the problem, and if Itzal lets you not limit yourself to specific frames - it's good.

Quote

As for Itzal It's exactly this feed it and blink mentality/functionality that I find broken. Even with Nova you have to throw out a portal and sprint instead of just spamming 1 like it's a cookie clicker or something.

 

Nova is exactly the same. You bullet jump and spam 3, just Nova portals for open world have much bigger range than Itzal so you also have to keep track of where you're going. Zephyr is the same - you spam'ish 1.

Feed and blink functionality is broken yes, because it's bloody inconvenient. It's less inconvenient than spending half the mission running through the vast empties for the nth time though, so have to get by with blinking. Though to be fair i've never seen anyone feed'n'blink in regular bounties. You just blink if you have energy and fly normally when you don't. Feed'n'blink comes into play for dolans, but in public games you don't really inconvenience anyone if you don't. Unless you are Trin because now you have to get all the lures from around all the map and sometimes they don't spawn where you expect them so you have to fly an extra mile.

The problem is not the blink though. The problem is you want to goddamned blink all the time even if you have to farm polymers for it, because farming polymers is still better than semi-interactive cutscenes that is traveling the same route for the billions time.

Edited by lnfine
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11 minutes ago, Astewart42 said:

Nothing's wrong with Teleporting

There is if it totally eclipses every other choice. I dare you to try and envision using a K-Drive at the same speed as the already fastest Archwing, with Blink added on top. For me, this sounds like an uncontrollable mess.

Are your examples exactly the same as Warframe or is there some element that might make the two games, and how they are designed, as different as apples and oranges?

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5 minutes ago, Oreades said:

And then everyone is still probably going to run the Itzal because you won't know if someone else is going to bring it or not.

The best bet is to make everything else competitive by bringing it up not by knocking the Itzal down. 

Laughs in void dash

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1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

You -can't- do combat in Archwings in the Plains or the Vallis, which renders ALL Archwing abilities obsolete. 

Fixing this is a little more difficult than 'remove the missiles', as that would allow players to sit miles out of harms way and simply snipe hopeless targets for maximum easy mode toroid farming. But I think I have a solution: partial solution #2.

This isn't exactly correct.  Itzal is one of the only frames that can successfully do combat in the Plains because it has the ability to stop the homing missiles from targeting it.  Penumbra is what allows this.  Combine that with the other abilities of Itzal and there really isn't a need to use anything else in the open worlds.  DE would have to nerf everything about the AW to the point that it was a different AW altogether for it to not still be the best option in most cases.  

I only mention this for those who might be so focused on the Blink ability that they are missing the larger picture.  

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Scott sounded pretty serious about it in the dev stream.  I understand people not wanting to nerf the Itzal because its speed is what seperates it from all the other archwings but....

I use Ely and have hyperion thrusters and it sucks watching everyone else blow by just because I dont wanna use itzal.

I also cant imagine k-drives going alot faster.   I dont even have that speed boost mod yet.   But K-drive is pretty hard to control now lol.   It also sucks we dont get to use guns from them like you can archwings.   AS WELL as our radar mods do not work at all while on our boards.  

-------------

I want to use my K-drive to travel but even my slow #$^ Ely archwing is faster at covering ground because I dont run into trees or stuck on mountains.   

I guess when you enter into K-drive speed mode the anti-grav should elevate you waaaaay off the ground and just let you rocket through the air like a bad #$^(like 50-100 meters).  Then when your going at cruise speed your just hovering above the ground and can grind on things and do tricks and stuff.   That would be a cool compromise.   And then we could BUFF the K-drive speed mode to make it more competitive with AW's.

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23 hours ago, Lion said:

Scott has made it clear he wants to nerf Itzal because K-Drive sucks

That isn't what he said at all. 

The problem is that Itzal is so much better than anything else that it's the only way to get around, but DE want play variety. Or to put it another way: if there's just one meta then it gets boring.

I get his point, but the fact that my operator is also faster than k drive. Most frames can parkour faster than a k drive.

Which gets us to what Steve spoke about afterwards - originally the PoE was going to have multiple entry points, and some kind of fast travel could be an alternative.

Personally I'd make k drive travel faster (somewhere between fast frames and Naramon) and more valuable - maybe make k drive tricks grant affinity or something.

But also: open world missions have random locations, so there's just too much transit. A simple fix: the 1st mission in a bounty should be random, but every subsequent mission should be in an adjacent location - less than 300m away.

Oh, and take out the capture area mechanic, at least for quests. Just litter the world with quest givers so that you're never too far away from one.

 

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Posted (edited)

if we could attack on k-drive, and it had its own hp and hitbox, i bet u more people would use it

like when u have to kill a set number of enemies

and also they should buff  archwings for combat in open worlds so that they arnt instantly shot down

Edited by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

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17 hours ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

This is entirely untrue. When the question was raised during the streams when K-Drive was being showcased, the answer was always "K-Drive is not intended to be a weapon/combat platform. You will not be able to attack from it."

That would be a better rework in comparison to Nerfing Archwings that go about 75 meters per a second. Warframe got a Hover board before Fornite; so there is something to consider out of the difference.

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

and also they should buff  archwings for combat in open worlds so that they arnt instantly shot down

DE pretty much forced the use of Itzal when they added those homing anti-AW missiles to the game.  As Itzal and maybe Amesha (I'm not sure about this one) are the only AW that can ignore those at will.  

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

Laughs in void dash

Chuckles in Wormhole. 

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8 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

Give us different ways of earning standing for the KDs, wats outside of OV

most definitely, Archwings and Hoverboards should be usable in normal Missions too - it doesn't matter that they'll be really cramped and usually bad to use, we'll adapt as Players and not use it when it's bad. but being able to use them when we want to, we should be able to! \o/

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Archwings are pretty strong, and the Amesha can make players outright invincible on the Plains between its support ability and keeping players out of melee/bombardment range. Giving us permanent Archwings would reduce "Warframe" variety in the Plains down to just the four Archwings and further down to just two, since players would likely use their Archwings over their own Warframes.

not really - the Ranges of those Abilities as it is, would only be good for defending a Health Based Objective, otherwise wouldn't really be very useful. and the DPS Archwings, can't DPS. they're just not gonna Kill anything other than Trash Units (because everything can Kill Trash Units, they have no Health, a half modded vanlla Braton can Kill them).
they're definitely not replacing Warframes, Warframe Abilities have better CC and better Damage, by far.
but sure, Amseha would be somewhat useful for small invulnerability and 'not Mesmer Skin'. mostly that one, tbh. you still only might see one per Squad, if that.

anyways whatever the reason for there to be more AA missiles than World War III, it certainly isn't a good one in the current state of things, yes.

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  1. K-Drives don't need a "rework". Everyone seems to be throwing that word around, without considering what it really entails. K-Drives, from a functional standpoint, do their intended job well enough and they don't break any necessary game-play elements.
  2. Allowing the use of weapons on a K-Drive would either be extremely limited if implemented, making their use more of a hindrance than a benefit, or they would require a rework to the control scheme to replace free-styling tricks with attacks.

No amount of buffs to K-Drive will make them as or more appealing than Archwing. The Devs know this, we know this. You can't buff their speed outright without making them unusable (A slowly incrementally building speed-buff could work in theory though, as a mod.), you can't allow weapon usage without changing the face of how they work, and quite frankly you can't change the minds of the players who only care about function.

K-Drives are a choice based mostly on subjective value, and just going off general comments and player habits, it isn't very popular to choose things with personal value over functional value. Most players go for the optimal choice, and K-Drive is never optimal.

 

You can throw a bevy of buffs and updates to K-Drive, and short of making them another Archwing, players won't use them en mass. Give them the ability to stand on as a physical object, cool, no one is going to use that except for Captura shots. Give them weapon use. Cool. Archwings already do that, it isn't wonky to use, and they have their own abilities. Make them faster, no one will care because flying over a mountain is always faster than going around.

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31 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Chuckles in Wormhole. 

Don't give them any ideas or you could be next

*Flies away with Tail Wind*

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14 hours ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

in Arch wing missions Itzal is more balanced because while it is the fastest, it doesn’t have many offensive capabilities.

Yeah i mean its only the fastest and has THE most cheesable aoe damage attack (with a CC mod to accompany it) that everyone on Neptune/Salacia uses to fast level their gear with.

The "nerf" isnt even a nerf, its just making it fall in line with other archwing so they all remain viable, as for "speed is needed in open world", well it still is, archwing are still faster than normal movement and kdrives, so their still king of speed even with the itzal moving normally like the rest, the itzal still has THE highest base speed (1.20) and can be modded with hyperion thrusters to still remain faster than the rest.

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7 hours ago, X4vi0uR said:

I mean, Itzal is meant to be fast but having lighter shields and health. It's literally what that Archwing is supposed to do. Nerfing it would be like taking the speed buff away from Volt or the Stealth skills away from Loki and Ivara.

you are trying to make it sound like the itzal trades shields/hp for some form of magic dodging or evasion via that speed which it does not, its "1" is only used to cheese straight line movement, typically in open world, it doesnt use that ability to try and evade damage thsu saving its low shields/hp.

It also hasnt had its speed taken away, its still got the highest base speed of all archwing which is further enhanced with hyperion thrusters.

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How about instead of completely removing blink you give the ability to every archwing and give itzal a new ability like maybe a portal or switch teleport ability with a reasonable cool down or something similar. 

My god this topic has brought out a crap load of toxic people on both sides that refuse to acknowledge any reasonable criticism or concerns. 

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Remember when Carrier was the only sentinel worth using because of Vacuum? Why was that again? Oh right, because of all the utility the other sentinels brought, vacuum was the only one really worthwhile.

 

Did DE nerf Carrier to the dirt, say make vacuum only work for +1 extra meters? No. They made vacuum universal for all sentinels.

 

Remember when sentinels were the only companions worth using? Because gathering loot in a looter shooter was more valuable than the other buffs the kavats and kubrows brought?

 

Did DE nerf sentinels to the dirt, say make all sentinels have a max of 1 HP and 1 shield to encourage other companions being brought? No, they added fetch to the game.

 

Nerfing an item instead of addressing the problem why said item is dominant isn't the solution.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, peterc3 said:

There is if it totally eclipses every other choice. I dare you to try and envision using a K-Drive at the same speed as the already fastest Archwing, with Blink added on top. For me, this sounds like an uncontrollable mess.

Are your examples exactly the same as Warframe or is there some element that might make the two games, and how they are designed, as different as apples and oranges?

Is titanfall exactly the same as Warframe? IS Anthem exactly the same as Warframe? Is knowledge and learning of game controls and systems transferable between titles?

Is flying in descent 3D completely different from flying in Warframe or are there similarities to a 6 degrees of freedom style system of movement? Are there things that developers and players can take away from titles which came before and already did something similar ?  Can a player draw examples from games they played before to make recommendations for Warframe or are we like “ we don’t want to hear about destiny “ BioWare ?

 

How many rhetorical questions can we ask in a single post? 

 

I did give examples of ways the k drive could be made more viable and a better choice for some players. 

Edited by Astewart42

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Maybe if DE hadn't nerfed K-drives twice I would think about using them a little more. DE it's your fault that K-drives suck as much as they do so please don't take it out on archwings. It's like getting a new baby sibling and now the baby sibling gets more attention than you do and things need to be fair(archwings vs. k-drives) making us wish we never had that baby sibling because it takes away from archwings. I know it's a weird analogy but if K-drives were never added at all then archwings (or just itzal) wouldn't get nerfed to the ground.

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