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Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

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10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Even with dedicated AA enemies, I still wouldn't allow them to disable our Archwings. Deal heavy damage? Sure. Maybe even hit us with status effects or knock us around. Just don't disable people's Archwings, because that alone makes aerial combat a pain in the ass.

i agree, sorry i just assumed that it would (in the future) be that all sorts of AA would just deal Damage(yeah, maybe Status), and you would only get knocked out if your Archwing was "Killed".

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

But yes, having specific AA enemies would be fine by me. Like I said, I feel that Mortar units are a good place to put those. Bombards and those long-range bombardment Turrets are my personal favourite candidates.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ there's plenty of opportunity for new Enemies, too.

(and yeah, Heavy Gunners have Grattlers, which already fills the unguided type of AA, but only for close-ish Range, ofcourse)

 

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Nobody came to Warframe looking for Tony Hawk's Pro Skater[citation needed]. Having the ability to do tricks is fine, sure. Have at it. Making that the ONLY way to earn Affinity and Standing is asinine in the extreme. From the perspective of not-a-skater-boy, when am I going to perform tricks? I only really use my K-Drive to travel point-to-point, and doing tricks is objectively and significantly slower than simply boosting. Just let me gain Affinity simply for riding the sodding thing and maybe more people would bother. Because yeah - a fully-upgraded custom K-Drive is quite fast and agile. The default white "board," on the other hand, is utter garbage that nobody likes. If you want people using K-Drives, give them K-Drives worth using in the first place, and then maybe they'll be motivated to want even better ones.

indeed, nobody came to Warframe for Pro Skater, but i'm happy that it's there :D

but Players should have multiple options, certainly.

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4 hours ago, (XB1)UlisesTheFallen said:

I hope DE doesnt take this too personally, but Scott has no knowledge on the game he works on.

Wow... Now that's a bad opener. Sadly he probably knows more of the game than you. It may even be your lack of knowledge why you are unable to see the greater scope of the issues.

I would read your wall of text but that first line tells me everything I need to know.

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As someone with maxed Kdrive mobility mods..

Even with all speed buffs, jump buffs and the reduced fall speed mod allowing you to jump over most obstacles, archwing boosting with itzal is still faster.. any archwing in fact.

 

Add in blink and there is truely no reason to choose another AW.

To me thr solution is to increase the usefulness of Archwing in a combat sense. Make elytron usefully powerful in the plains and people might use it over insta speed.

 

However KD can never compete with AW in speed or utility in its current form. As long as weapons and abilities are restricted from use the boards are useless in any function other than fun.

I dont think DE understands this..

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7 hours ago, (XB1)UlisesTheFallen said:

I hope DE doesnt take this too personally, but Scott has no knowledge on the game he works on. Itzal is prized for its speed in open world over the others, because thats literally all Archwing is used for in these open worlds. There is no other incentive to use them outside of transportation. No need to use abilities for combat, because the frames are there to do that. Nobody wants to waste time on horrendously boring bounties moving 2000m between objectives. Its like DE forgot that outside of open world, Archwing missions exist, where Itzal isnt really used, except for farming Alu during Razorback Armada. Every other Archwing is far superior to Itzal in every other situation. Amesha, the healing support Archwing, is far more viable in combat situations then Itzal. But in open world where they are solely used for transportation, and nothing else, Itzal is top choice. And even then, its not like people are forced to use Itzal anyway. It would be like nerfing Volt because of his Speed, Zephyr because of Tail Wind, or Nova because of her Wormhole, because they can cover farther distance faster then the other frames. Thats stupid-incarnate, and someone with common sense should know that Itzal having extra mobility is completely fine. Balance doesnt exist in this game to begin with, but how low have people fallen that they will go as far as complaining about the speed of an Archwing being better then the others, and a dev having that same mind set is just sad. Maybe make the boost all archwings have actually boost at a much higher speed then what we have atm. Its not Itzal's fault. Its the open world's fault for being so boring and tedious, that people want to rush it as fast as possible. When Railjack drops, Amesha and Odonata Prime will be used far more then Itzal because those Archwings are designed for battle, not travelling. I'm sure even Elytron will be used more during Railjack. But in terms of travelling open world, Itzal is used because thats what its good for, and that isnt a bad thing. Seriously, this isnt a personal attack on Scott, but if he really plays this game, I just dont believe it. If he did, he'd know Itzal isnt the problem at all. People complained Archwings didnt have a use for the longest time, and now they do. When Railjack does drop, I bet Itzal will be the least used because its got the weakest kit out of all other Archwings in terms of combat. What then? Nerf the others? Thats just sad that in order to make a couple people feel better about their choice in transportation, everyone else has to suffer for it. Stop listening to the wrong side of the community. And if you want K-Drives to be used more, buff their speed instead, and increase the speed of other Archwings as already suggested. Nerfing doesnt create player choice, it forces many of us to play the way a few others want everyone else to. How is it this hard to understand that buffing the others creates more diversity, instead of forcefully pushing us away from something we worked towards. I built my Itzal, I should have the speed I'm entitled to have when I worked for it, not punished to satisfy those who choose not to use it

you trying to tell me boy, that my Amesha is useless against Eidolons and othe defense missions?? 

And i tough it compensated for my DPS warframe so i could be an even better type of Equinox... 

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This issue stems from the initail design decisions behind K-Drives. From day 1 there were inferior as means of transportation and there is only so much fun you can have grinding, given how maps are constructed and how limited moveset is. Point is, K-Drives lack any real purpose or depth to be usefull or enjoyable. K-Drives need a place in the game, it is not limited to mobility.

While K-Drives were in development and filled a lot of screen time on DevStreams, I had the impression, they will be key elements in fights against Orbs. I quickly distanced myself from my own idea, to not get disappointed later. Then Fortuna droped - during the questline we got our first board and shortly after we used this board in a following quest mission to deliver a bomb to an Orb - at that time, my initial vison of K-Drives was reinforced and I already saw myself grinding under an Orb in "yet to release" Heists. We all know how it turned out in the end.

What conclusions did I make from this experience? First, DE genuinely tried to include K-Drives into Orb fights, but could not properly execute this vision, so that we were left with a bare-bones side activity. Second, there was no vision from the get-go, it was just an idea someone had and it seemed catchy enough to bait attention for the next big update.
Speculations aside, K-Drives in their current state have no purpose or meaning and should not exist in the first place. The idea to cripple other, already suffering parts of the game, to let 2 dead horses compete against each other in the process is nuts. Not that I support latest design decisions DE made, but this is too much even for a joke.

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7 hours ago, taiiat said:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ there's plenty of opportunity for new Enemies, too.

(and yeah, Heavy Gunners have Grattlers, which already fills the unguided type of AA, but only for close-ish Range, ofcourse)

The reason I typically argue against new enemy types is a bit off-topic. Generally speaking, I'm of the opinion that horde shooters work best when enemies have unique silhouettes, defined roles and little overlap. Gameplay depth comes not from the complexity of individual enemies, but rather the way they play together. For this, target recognition and priority is important. A large variety of samey-looking, samey-acting enemies tend to dilute this quite significantly, leading players to treat most if not all enemies the same. Essentially, too much enemy variety causes people to stop paying attention. That's why I'd like to reuse existing critters with already unique silhouettes (the mortar tubes backpack) in the role of AA.

This is not specific to Archwings, though. I tend to prefer this style of encounter design in broad terms, for all parts of the game.

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Even with all speed buffs, jump buffs and the reduced fall speed mod allowing you to jump over most obstacles, archwing boosting with itzal is still faster.. any archwing in fact.

Yup. All Archwings are faster and easier to use for travel with no mods installed than even the best K-Drives. I have a maxed-out K-Drive of my own with all the jump and speed boosts, and all that really accomplishes is making it not-terrible at travelling long distances. Even my very basic Amesha in no way slotted for Speed is still faster and better at this, however. The simple fact of the matter is K-Drives will never, under any circumstances, be better for travel than Archwings. Broadly speaking, ground travel is never going to be as good as air travel. Instead of trying to make K-Drives competitive with Archwings and breaking systems in the process, give them their own niche. As I've suggested before, letting me drive them in regular instances where Archwings don't fit would instantly give them a lot more use. Maybe make them easier to get and upgrade, as well.

Long story short, K-Drives are not good transportation for open-world maps. Trying to force them in that role is a lost cause. Find another use for them that Archwings can't fill.

With all of that said, though, I don't think K-Drives are the sole or really primary issue with Itzal Blink. Rather, the issue is with balance within the Archwing category itself. As with Energising Dash, the problem is broader than just that one ability and does come down to there being very little use for Operators Archwings in the game besides a single basic utility ability. I'm just saying that even without considering K-Drives, Blink has its own entirely separate balance considerations.

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1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

That's why I'd like to reuse existing critters with already unique silhouettes (the mortar tubes backpack) in the role of AA.

however, Tusk Bombards already fill multiple roles, and there's even already two Variants of Tusk Bombards.
probably better with some new Enemies, rather than risk having one Enemy Type doing every job at once.

(and i don't think any of this is off-topic, this is all encompassed inside of what needs to be done to make Archwings and Hoverboards actually desired to be used for anything)

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Posted (edited)

So, with the recent riot about Itzal probably getting nerfed,

i think its a good time to talk about K-Drives 🙂

 

Preamble:

In a Devstream long ago when they showed K-Drives they said something like "we are still debating wether players should be able to use their weapons while on K-Drives or if this is too OP". I understand that they think about this, but for a few reasons i think that we dont have to fear that we might get too strong when we could use our weapons on K-Drives.

  • we can use our Weapons in Archwing, but nobody would say that we are OP because of that
  • in many scenarios, using your Warframe-Abilities is superior over using your Weapons
  • many Enemies can knock you off our Archwing or K-Drive
  • shooting while moving with an vehicle is a little harder (DE even made Riven challenges that make us kill enemies while in Archwing for example)

 

Why are very few people using K-Drives?

  • its slower than Archwings (and restricted to the ground)
  • its a mobility-tool only, you can do nothing when else when you are on your K-Drive
  • additionally, there is no mission-design incentivising the use of K-Drives (we could use it for "kill x enemies of type y", but since we cant shot from our K-Drive, this is too clunky)
  • all K-Drives are the same, besides MR and fashion there is no reason to level and use them all
  • massive grind for standing, no real way of gaining standing through core-gameplay

 

What is the solution?

  • let us use our weapons on our K-Drives
  • give each K-Drive 4 abilities to bring them on par with Archwings
  • if this is done right, even the people that freaked out about Itzal getting nerfed might forget about it because the new alternative is useful and fun!
  • let us level our K-Drives like we can level Archwings and Warframes
  • let us gain standing for VentKids more efficient and maybe also passive with equipped sigils on our Warframe like we can for the regular syndicates
  • Bonus: Redesign missions in the OpenWorlds a bit so that we have less of "stage 1 - travel 1000m - stage 2 - travel 700m" etc, this a very important factor on why Itzal is getting used in 90% of the cases. The distances between stages are huge, and there is nothing to do really, so of course everyone uses the fastest method to travel to the next stage.

 

Thats it basically, but i want to present you a concept for the K-Drives i have in mind.

Let me know what you think about my thoughts in general, and post ideas for K-Drive abilites, i would be curious what you have in mind 🙂

Also, if you agree, feel free to share this, and btw, i will add this to my Thread in the Feedback-subforum 😉

What would be your favourite K-Drive to use?

 

Concepts:

Each K-Drive has its own purpose and abilities that can be used in different scenarios.

A nice bonus for all K-Drives would be that we can restore a small amount of energy performing tricks!

Abilities can scale with mods - so standard +ability strength/duration/range mods need to be introduced for K-Drives.

 

Badbaby - the Allrounder

Spoiler

1st Ability: perform a slam-attack that creates a shockwave, knocking down enemies (can only be casted when you are in the air before)

2nd Ability: create a small Nullifier bubble around you (will prevent knockdowns and up to 50% damage, cant be recasted until it gets destroyed)

3rd Ability: duration based, when active each enemy you touch will get knocked out for certain time (5 to 10 seconds maybe)

4th Ability: create 2 portals (entry and exit) that each player can use for quicktravelling

Flatbelly - the Supporter (no 4th ability yet, what are your ideas?)

Spoiler

1st Ability: Drop an Ammo or Health supply (acts the same as the consumables you can equip in your gearwheel)

2nd Ability: Disable Nullifiers for a very short duration and a Radius of around 25 meters around you

3rd Ability: catapult yourself into the air into a stationary position and mark enemies to remove shields/armor for a short period of time

4th Ability: Healing AoE, perform tricks to heal other players?^^

Needlenose - the Stealth-Killer

Spoiler

1st Ability: Duration based invisibilty

2nd Ability: Decoy - makes enemies come to you (good use with 3rd ability)

3rd Ability: when activated, Needles will puncture everything around the K-Drive in a 2m Radius (up to 360°)

4th Ability: when activated, you will pull yourself onto an Enemy and perform a finisher

Runway - the Damage-Dealer (no 1st ability yet, what are your ideas?)

Spoiler

1st Ability: Tap to charge through enemies, ragdoll them like Rhinos charge does

2nd Ability: Shoot a ballistic grenade in front of you (good damage, low rate of fire, traveltime, self damage possible)

3rd Ability: Drop a mine behind you that triggers for massive Explosion when an enemy steps on it (self damage possible! you can trigger the mine yourself!)

4th Ability: Attach your Melee-Weapon to the K-Drive (will deal as much damage as your melee, but you attack with the tricks you can perform)

 

Edited by DreisterDino
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Not really sure this would help make them more viable, but here's some ideas for the 4th and 1st abilities you're missing.

For Flatbelly make it a ragdolling draw in ability by spinning in place (think like that Inaros ability or Vauban's Vortex) for easy collection of enemies for allies (or the player after its done) to blast quickly.

As for Runway, make it like a chargeable Rhino 1, stopping dead to charge up for a damaging bull-rush (toss in some damage reduction while charging/dashing for good measure).

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Posted (edited)

We don't need to make them viable. They need to be like Syandanas, use them if you want to, or don't.

Remove the freaking mastery points from that abomination. KDrives are the only non-combat stuff which award MR points, that's as stupid as putting MR points behind Syandanas and Accessories.

As long as they exist, I won't even bother anymore with MR grinding, as I know I'm locked out of 24k (?) unreachable Mastery points.

Edited by Chewarette
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I dont think we need any abilitys for K-drives unless its some kind of boost to speed or cloack , I agree on gun use , secondarys should be fine as wel las speed buff

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vor 9 Minuten schrieb Aldain:

Not really sure this would help make them more viable, but here's some ideas for the 4th and 1st abilities you're missing.

For Flatbelly make it a ragdolling draw in ability by spinning in place (think like that Inaros ability or Vauban's Vortex) for easy collection of enemies for allies (or the player after its done) to blast quickly.

As for Runway, make it like a chargeable Rhino 1, stopping dead to charge up for a damaging bull-rush (toss in some damage reduction while charging/dashing for good measure).

I really like both of the ideas you have there, especially the co-op based ability for Flatbelly!

 

Well, you are right, we cant be sure that they will get used more often, but they will be a real alternative at least.

Thats why i also said that mission-design is a very important factor and that we need to get rid off "stage 1 - travel 1000m - stage 2 - travel 700m -etc"

Also, leveling them would be more effective, there would be a real reason to level them and progress in the syndicate.

 

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Add a super jump that can cross multiple dozen of meters in a few seconds 

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Just now, DreisterDino said:

I really like both of the ideas you have there, especially the co-op based ability for Flatbelly!

 

Well, you are right, we cant be sure that they will get used more often, but they will be a real alternative at least.

Thats why i also said that mission-design is a very important factor and that we need to get rid off "stage 1 - travel 1000m - stage 2 - travel 700m -etc"

Also, leveling them would be more effective, there would be a real reason to level them and progress in the syndicate.

 

Feel free to tack both of them into the slots if you feel like it, its not like I'm personally invested in em.

And yeah, the randomly large distances between missions is a large reason why people favor Archwings, even if a boosting K-Drive could move at the same speed it would still have to navigate mountain ranges to get there in a straight line.

Another problem stems from them being behind a very slow to rank and boring syndicate...the Ventkids are an utter pain to rank up because the races (which give 5k standing if completed iirc) are randomly spawned and have no on-map indicators as to which are active at what time and trying to get rank by tricks is a slog, nevermind that the mods for these things are also standing locked when most of them are needed to make the K-Drive even remotely useful.

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb Aldain:

Another problem stems from them being behind a very slow to rank and boring syndicate...the Ventkids are an utter pain to rank up because the races (which give 5k standing if completed iirc) are randomly spawned and have no on-map indicators as to which are active at what time and trying to get rank by tricks is a slog, nevermind that the mods for these things are also standing locked when most of them are needed to make the K-Drive even remotely useful.

Indeed. Thats part of the reason why all i could get myself to is level just one K-Drive to lvl 18 and get to the 2nd rank on ventkids 😄

With my suggestion you would be able to level them through combat and using the abilites aswell (just like you level Archwings and Warframes).

 

vor 11 Minuten schrieb ludo3009:

Add a super jump that can cross multiple dozen of meters in a few seconds 

Idk if i like that, we might end up in the same situation we are in with Itzal at the moment.

I would only add that as a universal passive or universal 1st ability for all K-Drives.

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Posted (edited)

Given that K-Drives are essentially cosmetic there should be no reason the devs should force people to use them.  It would be like forcing people to use syndanas and sugatras (to continue the comparison from above).  If few people like them and they aren't being used then DE should just consider it a failed experiment and move on.

 

Edited by Elessara1
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1 minute ago, DreisterDino said:

Indeed. Thats part of the reason why all i could get myself to is level just one K-Drive to lvl 18 and get to the 2nd rank on ventkids

I'm honestly kinda ashamed to admit I brought a K-Drive for plat, if only because ranking up the Ventkids for the parts I wanted (which just so happened to be the 4 components of the daily special) was more of a pain than selling random junk on the market for 57 plat.

But yeah having them have other means of getting xp aside from tricks would be grand start, even if they weren't made combat ready I'd settle for the affinity needs to be dialed back or static per level.

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Posted (edited)
vor 7 Minuten schrieb Elessara1:

Given that K-Drives are essentially cosmetic there should be no reason the devs should force people to use them.  It would be like forcing people to use syndanas and sugatras (to continue the comparison from above).  If no one likes them they aren't being used then DE should just consider it a failed experiment and move on.

Well, i think it failed because they didnt do a good job at implementing them.

They provide no reason to use them over anything else and combined that with a MASSIVE and boring grind for standing,

ofc this is gonna fail. And with my suggestion, they will not be "just cosmetics" anymore.

 

BUT, the general idea of adding vehicles to Warframe is a good one imo and can really add a lot of fun to Warframe!

Do you remember how hyped the playerbase was when they first showed the K-Drives at Tennocon/Devstreams? The crowd went crazy 😄

So i disagree, they shouldnt just move on but have a look at why it failed and try to make it better.

Also....how is giving us this option "forcing" anyone? We are not forced to use them now, and you wont when they make them usable and a good and fun alternative.

 

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Aldain:

I'm honestly kinda ashamed to admit I brought a K-Drive for plat, if only because ranking up the Ventkids for the parts I wanted (which just so happened to be the 4 components of the daily special) was more of a pain than selling random junk on the market for 57 plat.


same here^^

 

Edited by DreisterDino
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I suppose. Honestly, I feel Laners and Butchers can do with a bit of a pruning, and individual Tusk Grenier colours could use a tad more variety so they're more easily identifiable from each other. But I'm not necessarily opposed to adding a new enemy. Just a bit worried that a dedicated anti-air enemy might end up being a tad superfluous if it doesn't also have ground combat capability. This is why I elected to pick an existing ground combatant. In either case, restricting AA to just ONE enemy type as opposed to "seemingly all of them" would be a step up, regardless 🙂

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How about instead of trying to make them a fighting vehicle, add content specific to the K-Drive that is fun?

See.  I don't understand why we'd need yet another way to fight while travelling.  After all, nobody actually does that if they can avoid it.  So trying to make the K-Drive do that job isn't going to change anything.

Instead, make racing events that a) you can actually see the course, and b) have rewards and challenging opponents.  Make stunt events where you're competing X-Games style to perform the hardest tricks.  In other words, do things that are unique to K-Drives, not try to wedge the square K-Drive into the round hole of mobile combat.

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2 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Well, i think it failed because they didnt do a good job at implementing them.

They provide no reason to use them over anything else and combined that with a MASSIVE and boring grind for standing,

ofc this is gonna fail.

 

BUT, the general idea of adding vehicles to Warframe is a good one imo and can really add a lot of fun to Warframe!

Do you remember how hyped the playerbase was when they first showed the K-Drives at Tennocon/Devstreams? The crowd went crazy 😄

So i disagree, they shouldnt just move on but have a look at why it failed and try to make it better.

Also....how is giving us this option "forcing" anyone? We are not forced to use them now, and you wont when they make them usable and a good and fun alternative.

 


same here^^

 

Granted I'm probably getting rather nitpicky here but the thread title says "how to make players use them" which kind of implies forcing them which is something they've already tried by make each differently looking board give MR.  Since this didn't work they're now talking about nerfing Itzal which will neither make nor encourage people to use the K-drives.  

If the devs wanted to encourage people (as opposed to make them) to use K-drives there are many things they could do including give the K-drives more functionality as you suggested but right now they seem to be getting heavy handed and are going down the force route.

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On 2019-04-05 at 8:07 PM, Purrfessor said:

its not the fact kdrive sucks  its the fact any other archwing and kdrives sucks compared to the itzal  specialy movement wise

Because Itzal is known as the fast archwing, we have the average Odonata, Defensive Amesha, Offensive Elytron, and Mobile Itzal, that’s what it does

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54 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Why are very few people using K-Drives?

Add :

It’s tied to a Syndicate that has a daily cap and the actual standing gain is Trick Score divided by four. The standing grind is so tedious that most people don’t even bother.

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best solutions IMO:

- make K drives level 4x faster than they do now. they are WAY too slow, to the point where unless you spend 4 hours with a Booster in the Vallis, you've no chance of levelling a K-drive in any reasonable length of time, even if you are someone with plenty of time to play Warframe (so just think how long it takes for casual players). nobody wants to fart around on K-drives for hours, we have Skateboard games and Snowboarding games like SSX and Ring of Elysium for that. we're here to kill massive numbers of mobs en-masse, so it makes sense for our K-drives to help us accomplish this, since Archwings do this as well.

- make some slightly different but noticeable stats. one K-Drive could be slower but harder to fall off if you crash, another could be the opposite: fastest but easy to fall off. there's currently no difference in each of the K-Drives and it makes it super boring as a result. MR points are the only reason to build more boards than the one I use currently, but that's not enough, especially with how long it takes to level the damn things.

- allow us to use weapons on our K-drive, Secondaries at the very least: not only would K-Drive-Bys be pretty fun, but it wouldn't really be overpowered as you're still exposed to enemy fire, and you'd have to slow down while aiming because otherwise you aren't gonna hit squat at full speed unless you use something High-capacity and full auto like Azima. the "cool factor" of this alone should be enough to consider it's inclusion, since that's what K-drives were supposed to be "the cooler way to travel". wouldn't hurt to add a few missions that ask the player to use K-Drives as well.

anyway as for abilities:

Flatbelly 4th: emits a large Healing AoE, but only whilst players are on the K-Drive. those running support would have to drive around dodging bullets to heal their team, but if they allow us to use weapons whilst on a K-drive, you can have an elusive healer that can harass and fight enemies on your side, like a Trinity on Volt's Speed but faster!

Runway 1st: the Board jumps up and fires off projectiles in multiple directions, sort of like the Hyena's typhoon attack. projectiles deal damage that scales based on your Primary weapon.

 

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