Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I'm fairly sure everyone who thinks they were serious about nerfing Itzal are being wooshed by a practical joke... I mean, it was so blatantly absurd that the other devs were also taken aback when they heard it (or they acted well, if they knew about this possibility)

It's just so clearly a completely blind-to-the-big-picture decision, that I don't think someone could rationally think it's a good idea... and then I came to this thread (or whatever merge happened here making the nonsensical mish-mash of comments seem completely out of place) and see people defending the idea of nerfing Itzal...

Really? The answer to all of warframe's problems is not "nerf it"... it rarely is a good solution in any game that I've played. (and I'm 42, been playing games a LONG time)

[Valiant]

So couldn't we have some random and proper snowstorms like we had outside in the war within, introducing slower and different movement in Fortuna? Not only would these storms have reduced visibility and movement, it would encourage players to use their k-drives to zip around instead as it would also disable archwings. 

 

It would be one way to get people to use them, minus addressing the other issues around the k-drives and iztal (minus nerfing it...) and it would add a little variance and atmosphere. Bit of a hazard. 

[DissentWomble]

+1 Agree

[Chewarette]

Because we all love Dense Fog and Extreme Cold sorties, right

[Valiant]

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Because we all love Dense Fog and Extreme Cold sorties, right

Also like complaining about a whole lot too... 

The game lacks decent weather and this isn't asking for a cold mutation either where it can also ruin your shields. Bit more thought than 'well here's k drive, we'll force you to use it by also ruining iztal' 🤷‍♂️

Edited April 10, 2019 by Valiant

[(PSN)GrandisSupernus]

I'm really hoping that it was a joke, or at least not a serious consideration. I can see why he might say that, as obviously there is the fact that Itzal is the only Archwing that has a mobility power. But of course, before now Archwing missions were in very small maps so it wasn't quite as beneficial. Even so, Archwings are just faster in general, and I don't know if Itzal is even significantly faster than the others. It's really only K-Drives that are the issue, if we think that there's even a problem that needs to be "solved" at all.

Like, an Itzal is basically necessary to complete that horrendously awful Rush mission on Phobos currently. ...That really might be the worst and most annoying mission in the game, and that's coming from someone who likes Archwing missions. 😐

[Doraz_]

Don't change itzal, change the bounties.

Instead of missions spawned randomly across the map and that have nothing to do with one another, make that each bounty develops only in a portion of the map. Instead of ambushing a vehicle and destrying it for example, make us escort it to the destination ( line that follows the road on the map). There the vehicle lets us bypass security and we either assalut the base ( kill the enemies) or infiltrate ( the circles on the map). This kind of mobile defense makes certain archwing really shine while the izal becomes useless, or usefull only when going to point A to point B. This would also encourage/ force players to explore various parts of the map.

The itzal is not the problem, it's the only thing that works. The problem is what's surrounding, which gives this archwing an edge over the others.

 

[Loza03]

Come to think of it, didn't they say they were gonna do something like this?

[Ham_Grenabe]

If they can make snow effects like the storms in the Division, it would be really cool (especially if they can get the light sources in the snow looking like that). 

Another cool thing would be if the snowstorms could bring minibosses (mutant Orokin stuff, kubrodon packs, whatever - basically Thumper-likes, though maybe more threatening and less goofy). Give us something interesting to fight. 

[Darkuhn]

it's Wednesday lets nerf Mag..... ahhhhhhhm Itzal again

[Alejandrokek]

En 7/4/2019 a las 16:40, nslay dijo:

As far as I know, they are working on a new one. And yes, it's the only solution! With hills, mountains and obstacles k-drives will always have to travel longer distances than the the linear shortest paths any Archwing can travel. If you want k-drives to have any sort of advantage or equivalence, you either need to make an open world where it is hazardous or problematic to fly or you need an open world that is flat with few obstacles like the Cephalon datascapes.

I don't know if they are working on a new one, but as far as I know the roadmap for this year doesn't include a new open world, so I guess It's a year of waiting (at the very least) for a band-aid fix to K-Drives

And no, it isn't the only solution, you don't need to nerf everything else to make something fun. Useable? Yeah, maybe. But It would be much easier to just buff K-Drives, give them more base and boosted speed, boosts in any direction that you aim (that for hills), and ability to shoot while on it. And these are just some random ideas that I came up with, there's more room for improvement.

I'm not saying that It wouldn't be cool to have a "Skate World" in warframe, I would love to see a "sunset overdrive like" world, but It's way more cheaper to just buff K-Drives than put months of hardwork and resources into making them useable just in a single zone.

[nslay]

12 minutes ago, Alejandrokek said:

And no, it isn't the only solution, you don't need to nerf everything else to make something fun. Useable? Yeah, maybe. But It would be much easier to just buff K-Drives, give them more base and boosted speed, boosts in any direction that you aim (that for hills), and ability to shoot while on it. And these are just some random ideas that I came up with, there's more room for improvement. 

I'm not saying that It wouldn't be cool to have a "Skate World" in warframe, I would love to see a "sunset overdrive like" world, but It's way more cheaper to just buff K-Drives than put months of hardwork and resources into making them useable just in a single zone.

OK, buff K-drives... But then you will still have to travel much longer distances than Archwing owing to obstacles, hills, mountains. It doesn't solve the underlying problem ... which is: ground travel is less efficient.

And I didn't say anything about nerfing anything. An open world that provides an advantage or equivalence of K-drive over Archwing is not the same thing as "nerf everything else to make something fun." It's making a world where K-drives can be as efficient or more-so than Archwing!

Obstacles aside, take a string by both ends and let it slack. Imagine a bead traveling from finger tip to finger tip along the string. The distance traveled by the bead will be longer than the shortest distance between your finger tips. Now imagine traversing the massive mountains in Plains of Eidolon or Orb Vallis! Archwing flies linearly from point A to point B (like between your finger tips) regardless of the mountains. K-drive needs to follow the ground up over the mountains to get between A and B. It goes a much longer distance. Buff K-drives all you want... nobody will use them still because they are inherently less efficient in these environments.

[Sahysa]

I realize this is a few days late but it needed to get posted.  This was written pre 24.7.  Moved from General Discussion. 

During the wrap up to Devstream 126, Reb relayed a forum argument regarding K-drives and their speed, or lack thereof, compared to Archwing, specifically an Itzal’s blink drive.  A frustrated and buzzed Scott then promised to “nerf the S#&$ out of [it].” This resolved in an enlightened discussion where Itzal was the only viable mobility choice and needed to be dealt with on one side and on the other a game play loop that demanded fast travel and deemed that the need for fastest travel could be addressed in other ways. This conversation does not appear in the Devstream 126 overview and I feel this is a condemnable oversight in light of its significance to anyone who knows what Itzal’s blink is.

Unless it's all a joke, but I doubt it given what Warframe Empyrion promises to do to the game.  

 

After thinking about this over the weekend, I came to the conclusion that removing Itzal’s blink would change nothing about which archwings I use.  Itzal is still the fastest archwing and can still outrun K-drives. Itzal has a massive vacuum that does damage. Itzal is the only archwing with stealth, group stealth at that.  Itzal is the only archwing that can instantly stop in mid air. Stealth is a master class defensive ability that allows the player to turret with their weapon; a nice carpal tunnel break.  With all these attractive qualities, I would not give up my daily driver even if it lost its blink drive. Itzal can be called Loki wing and for good reason. It is all utility and utility is all that's required for the skywing use case.

The archwing kits have not truly changed since their respective releases which predate skywing.  Changing it now would necessitate some sort of concession to Tridolon runners, although I suspect they will just see it as another challenge to edge case their way out of once the initial “DE hates raids, DE hates HardCore, DE hates fun” hate wave has past.  I digress. I believe the kit rot and the shoehorn known as SkyWing is the actual problem. Skywings have drastically different sprint speeds. Also ability ranges could use a review since they are scaled down from space archwing.

 

 

Elytron

Bomber wing’s abilities have devolved with the choice of archwing mission into only two meaningful descriptions: AOE and chaff.  All archwings have a missile breaker ability. Here that is Core vent and its augment creates another AOE. All 4 abilities are forms of AOE damage.  I have not tried to use this on the Valis but the scaling issues with Skywing ability range and power are bound to leave me unimpressed. The speed alone means having one equipped guarantees my squad is going to be waiting on me.  

 

Odonata

Excalibur wing is a generalist and is not particularly good at anything.  Relying on a small angle shield and flairs to keep it self in the air while the Warframe is still using the same weapon it would have used on the ground, there really isn’t a lot of reason to pick this.  Its abilities also have the same range issues like all Skywing abilities.

 

Amesha

Trinity wing, support wing, champion of JV (rest in peace), whatever you want to call it, it is here to save you.  Its abilities are however, complex, sometimes hard to use, and overpowered given the right situations. With the reduction in archwing missions, its purpose is somewhat superfluous unless the player is attempting to carry someone and in skywing it provides real tools to solve real problems.  Unfortunately for it, my tenno can also solve these problems, as can many warframes. Its abilities also have the same range issues like all Skywing abilities. I would use this over current Itzal in SkyWing but never in the current build or for tridolons.

An aside here: Warframe has the same problem WoW did with flying mounts.  Level designers were mostly disarmed of tools when players could just fly from quest objective to quest objective, ignoring the world below them.  They resolved this by preventing flight until later in the content cycle or by adding other powerful anti air mechanics. I suggest DE do the same on the next map:  More caves, more dangers, less convenience (why can I fly in caves?) but still fun if possible.

 

 

Let's continue with K-Drives.  K-drives have no abilities, must somewhat follow the ground, require some modicum of focus to get to their destination, can be outpaced by Mind Sprint, and disable your weapons.  It breaks your vacuum/fetch and your radars. It limits your offensive potential to that of an unarmed operator. You can be dismounted by simply hitting the wrong sequence of buttons.  Why do you even have this device equipped? Skywing has no such limitations. It is fortunate we don’t have limited gearwheel space or this would be a much more hotly contested issue.

 

I feel like this would not reach discussion level if K-Drives weren’t on the mastery list.  Because they do provide mastery, everyone is encouraged to build them regardless of if they find them fun or not.  This does not bother me for I agreed that I would build everything but maybe others did not consider this choice and are perturbed by the lack of function in K-drives they spent so much time on.  After playing them, I found them amusing but I still do not know their purpose other than world building. I love world building but implementing a movement system? I’m still confused why they exist gameplay-wise and I would like to understand it.  Given their power level, it's almost as if K-Drives were not suppose to interact with the combat game. I thought it was just a diversion but comparisons with Skywing regarding their utility as fast transit mechanisms continue to be entertained in live streams.  Why? They aren't just for fun?

Now, I can see and even support nerfing blink drive for the upcoming Railjack/Emperion content.  Teleporting across the map before you can say “prepare a boarding party” is game breaking. But that is not going to address Itzal vs SkyWing vs K-Drive issues or large world gameplay.  Not having archwing abilities or even archwings in the next “open world” would be an easy and fair solution in my opinion. Perhaps include K-drive specific areas or tasks that are required for progression, rewarding skill and modding of K-drives.  Elsewise, they are mastery fodder, period.

 

TL;DR

Itzal minus Blink is still too strong as a skywing.  The base speed is a chief issue.

Balance changes to Itzal before RailJack gameplay demos are unnecessary given what happened to Loki’s place in the meta.  

 

All archwings are better than K-driving unless you are a Pro-Skater fanatic.  

K-drive vehicle mechanics need to be overhauled to compete with “flying warframe with gun.”  I do NOT believe they are meant to. 

 

This should hopefully clear itself up after the technological and mechanical attention archwing is getting with Railjack/Emperion. I look forward to the discussion on k-drives as I know my opinions are narrow and utilitarian.

 

[Alejandrokek]

hace 1 hora, nslay dijo:

OK, buff K-drives... But then you will still have to travel much longer distances than Archwing owing to obstacles, hills, mountains. It doesn't solve the underlying problem ... which is: ground travel is less efficient.

And I didn't say anything about nerfing anything. An open world that provides an advantage or equivalence of K-drive over Archwing is not the same thing as "nerf everything else to make something fun." It's making a world where K-drives can be as efficient or more-so than Archwing!

Obstacles aside, take a string by both ends and let it slack. Imagine a bead traveling from finger tip to finger tip along the string. The distance traveled by the bead will be longer than the shortest distance between your finger tips. Now imagine traversing the massive mountains in Plains of Eidolon or Orb Vallis! Archwing flies linearly from point A to point B (like between your finger tips) regardless of the mountains. K-drive needs to follow the ground up over the mountains to get between A and B. It goes a much longer distance. Buff K-drives all you want... nobody will use them still because they are inherently less efficient in these environments.

I didn't wrote it because i thought It was obvious from the start, but yes, Archwings are the most efficient way plain and simple. So rather than making K-Drives more efficient, as I said, I want them to make it more fun, for travelling not only from A to B, but for moving around one area, killing enemies while you're at it, sunset overdrive or jet set run style.

You say: "And I didn't say anything about nerfing anything." but also you: "If you want k-drives to have any sort of advantage or equivalence, you either need to make an open world where it is hazardous or problematic to fly"

That's just a nerf for all archwings.

 

[--UMBRA--Silverdk]

On 2019-04-05 at 9:14 PM, Ham_Grenabe said:

K-Drives are like fishing and mining - they're side games, a little Tony Hawk in your Warframe.

It stopped being a side game when they locked 24k MR points behind it. The amount of time needed to max out a k-drive is 3-4 times higher then it should be 

[nslay]

18 minutes ago, Alejandrokek said:

I didn't wrote it because i thought It was obvious from the start, but yes, Archwings are the most efficient way plain and simple. So rather than making K-Drives more efficient, as I said, I want them to make it more fun, for travelling not only from A to B, but for moving around one area, killing enemies while you're at it, sunset overdrive or jet set run style.

You say: "And I didn't say anything about nerfing anything." but also you: "If you want k-drives to have any sort of advantage or equivalence, you either need to make an open world where it is hazardous or problematic to fly"

That's just a nerf for all archwings.

 

No, it's not a nerf. A new world specially designed to give k-drives an equivalence or advantage does not change Archwing's superiority in Plains of Eidolon or Orb Vallis. And it doesn't even have to be an environmental hazard or obstacles in the air, all you have to do is make the world mostly flat with few obstacles and k-drives become more equivalent to Archwing.

People are not complaining about k-drives not being fun. They are already fun. This is a red herring that has nothing to do with any complaint in all threads about this topic. DE specifically stated (I didn't say it!) that they were considering nerfing Itzal to make k-drives suck less. K-drives suck because they're inefficient for all the reasons I stated and especially compared to Itzal (actually even other Archwings suck compared to Itzal)! If DE wanted to really make K-drives better (which means more efficient, because nobody is talking about the already-fun k-drive), is to make an environment where they are equivalent or advantageous to Archwings. Even if you give k-drives abilities like Archwing, save for blink, it still remains worse (less efficient, nobody is talking about fun) than Archwing.

[Ham_Grenabe]

11 hours ago, --RV--Silverdk said:

It stopped being a side game when they locked 24k MR points behind it. The amount of time needed to max out a k-drive is 3-4 times higher then it should be 

If you say so. It's still a side game to me - those 24,000 MR points are something I can live without, and have zero plans of pursuing - the freebie K-Drive is enough.

I mean, I'll keep gathering MR no matter what (they'll never stop releasing new items that generate mastery points, so ignoring K-Drives means a delay while I wait for 8 new items to make up for the K-Drive mastery; but just a delay, rather than a hard block). 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[Astewart42]

The other option is to boost the effectiveness of the K-Drive. This can be done by higher speed, providing 120s buffs for doing tricks on the k-Drive , having jump height tied to speed so the player can jump over obstacles more easily depending on their speed. This can actually be something tied to Mods that can be slotted into the K-Drives which would make them more useful. 

THen it becomes a choice between what the player wants to use, the K-Drive or the Archwing. The Archwing is designed for traversing vast distances, and hey it is flight! That alone makes it really good, nerfing that functionality is not the way to fix these issues as far as I'm concerned. 

On the other hand, removing Blink will actually only hurt the most hardcore and invested players who run multiple bounties and missions on the plains for whom an extra two or three minutes add up rather quickly over time. 

It would be interesting to see the stats for Archwing Missions vs other missions in terms of the number of times played, and the use of Archwings on the plains missions. What if the majority of players don't even use the Archwing there? 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

Honestly it looks like the real problem is that k drives just can't go as fast because they're required to stay near the terrain and this causes players to wipeout. 

Seems to me like they can add a mechanic (maybe via a Mod that only works well on gilded k drives) to raise the altitude proportional with the velocity over time, perhaps only if the k drive were in the open. 

This would mean that k drive still works better in tighter spaces as you wouldn't engage that mechanic, while players trying to use archwing are stuck playing "warframe pinball" with the walls of the cave. 

On the other hand, out in the open, as you pick up speed you'd be raised above the bumps in the terrain in a relatively smooth arc until you hit the maximum height and maintain your cruising altitude until you either try to slow or bail. 

A simple compromise on functionality is that you will sacrifice tricks while travelling in that "pursuit mode" or whatever you want to call it. 

 

Maybe the ceiling can be around a third to half of the maximum height of the mountainous terrain, so players would still need to navigate around the mountains instead of going as the crow flies. 

[vomder]

It's all about time efficiency for players. They are going to choose what gets things done the quickest. Unless you are have unlimited free time, screwing around with K-Drives in humongous open world levels is really pointless.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

If the Developers want the players to use the K-drive they need to enable the Mining Tool's radar while riding around on it...We do missions and bounties using the Archwings, we'll use K-Drives for resources and farming...if anything have it pick up animals or animal spore as markers for our radar as well and then you'd really have a reason to use it....

Edited April 11, 2019 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

I find it kinda unsettling that Scott thinks that the Itzal is gamebreaking, as if nerfing the Itzal into uselessness will improve the game. 

Open worlds create a demand for fast transportation, and the Itzal is literally the only thing that meets that demand. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by (XB1)Erudite God

[diaversai]

I've tried using K-Drive to find thumpers, and I'd rather just bullet jump and void dash. This is with all the speed mods on it. 

[(XBOX)RPColten]

I also believe they (K-Drives) are not meant to compete against Archwings, and I think the dev team is on the same page as well. In the same stream where this whole debacle came to be, it was also stated that K-Drives versus Archwing isn't a matter of function versus function, but rather fun versus function. The Itzal-debate came to be due to how overbearing that one is compared to the other Archwing choices.

It is pretty much exactly as Steve and Scott said. Nothing can beat Itzal in terms of speed (Steve especially pointed towards Blink for this.), and players feel obligated to use Itzal or be left in the dust. Is this good or bad? What is the solution? What kind of change can be made to stop players from feeling like their arsenal options are being restricted? I'm sure we'll hear more about this on the next Devstream.

...and yes, this discussion is especially more prevalent due to how close Railjack is to release (Initial plans were to have initial launch be before Tennocon), which will feature Archwing as a relevant component. However personally I don't think the Itzal issue will be as present in Railjack due to the potential for scenarios that favour the other Archwings as well. Support, general utility, and offensive capability have value in the Archwing missions where all-out speed isn't a must have.

 

Edit: Personally speaking, I don't believe throwing more speed at K-Drives, or letting players attack from them or use abilities would promote greater usage. All of these are already provided by Archwings which will always outpace a K-Drive. Archwings from a functional perspective, will always be the better option, so K-Drives should be made into the not-quite better but more engaging option. Doubling-down on the cruising free-styling design is what needs to be done.

Edited April 11, 2019 by (XB1)RPColten

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

43 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

I find it kinda unsettling that Scott thinks that the Itzal is gamebreaking, as if nerfing the Itzal into uselessness will improve the game. 

Open worlds create a demand for fast transportation, and the Itzal is literally the only thing that meets that demand. 

this is just scott logic, and fanboyism at play

oh this sucks, but this is better than that sucks, so lets nerf the not sucks, so it sucks just as much

Fanboys clap, and rage at anyone who disagrees -_-

 

i like itzal as it is, theres no need for a nerf, or any adjustment at all, its just dumb regardless