Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

[RistN]

Whats next after itzal nerf and k-drive still sucks?  Nerfing operators?

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

I haven't been entirely truthful...I personally only use itzal for blink.

[(PSN)drollive96]

The problem is that DE wants EVERTHING inthe game to be used  equally, which is an unreasonable expectation, certain things WILL be used more than others, its unavoidable and nerfing things accomplishes nothing

[Lost_Cartographer]

On 2019-04-14 at 8:50 PM, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

I swear all DE has to do is allow K-drives to see gem locations and animal poop and now they have a purpose...

K-drives do, but you have to equip the correct tool first THEN board the, uh... board.

On 2019-04-15 at 4:01 PM, ZelUrk said:

how about making more archwing content, making other archwings viable

Railjack?

1 hour ago, (PS4)drollive96 said:

The problem is that DE wants EVERTHING inthe game to be used  equally, which is an unreasonable expectation, certain things WILL be used more than others, its unavoidable and nerfing things accomplishes nothing

Not necessarily.  They understand there will always be favorites, what they don't like are clear winners.  If Chroma were the ONLY viable option for wrecking Eidolons and near everyone was using him for eidolon hunting, they'd address that.  But since they can see a variety of warframes in use they're in no rush.  They can track these sort of things, and they can see how many Itzals are in use versus anything else.  If a vast majority of your players are using something, it either means it's OP or every other option is UP, though in this case, it's more that blink is "OP" for the purposes of travel across the plains.  They didn't make an open world just so we could skip nearly all of it.

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

On 2019-04-15 at 5:02 AM, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

Let's be honest, nerfing blink is a stupid idea that will do nothing but annoy almost the entire player base.

If I'm doing bounties I want to get around as fast as possible.  I don't go for a picnic and to take in the view.

De are the kings of coming up with things that annoy us 

[kgptzac]

The answer has always been very simple.  Equalize archwing stats, disable skills, and make them like frames in archwing mission: purely cosmetic (apart from aura mod).  Allowing archwings to use skills are pretty bad oversight and now they have to "remove features", in order to the right thing.

[Elyann]

People use Itzal because it easily allows them to pick up loot and to "blink" around the map , thus being faster and more efficient than other archwings for open world maps.

Is the problem Itzal itself ? No. 
Itzal has always been a balanced archwing and it shows that in normal archwing missions where it does not outshine the other archwing models but is instead often a worse choice than a well modded Elytron or Amesha.

This archwing doesn't need any kind of nerf, it works fine ; the issue here lies within the fact Itzal simply happens to offer more mobility than the other archwings while in open world areas which isn't even a real issue if you ask me because let's be honest, in a game which is all about being fast and efficient due to the grind aspect , this is exactly what the player wants. 

If this truly has to be considered as a problem then the fix is rather simple : buff the other archwings speed while in open world areas in order to make them be on par with Itzal's speed or just buff their utility in a way that will make people actually consider picking them instead of Itzal.
Nerfing a balanced Archwing is not the solution. DE can't keep on nerfing things that actually work as intended and that do not even count as exploits simply because they made some design mistakes. 
 

[Teliko_Freedman]

1: travel far in short time, and moves you even while invisible.

2: Invisible, nuff said.

3: Gathers all items nearby, Large AoE, freezes gathered enemies with Augment. OP.

4: Options that shoot stuff dead with autoaim.

 

*looks at other archwings*

huh........

 

 

[(NSW)Sniperfox47]

11 hours ago, kgptzac said:

The answer has always been very simple.  Equalize archwing stats, disable skills, and make them like frames in archwing mission: purely cosmetic (apart from aura mod).  Allowing archwings to use skills are pretty bad oversight and now they have to "remove features", in order to the right thing.

Frames aren't totally cosmetic in archwing missions though, there are better and worse frames for Archwing because some Frame Mods and many Passives still apply.  A build that includes loot radar and enemy radar on Trinity with her revive speed bonus for example is a bunch better than Oberon with a bunch of power strength/efficiency.

[(XBOX)Fat Gregory]

On 2019-04-18 at 12:12 AM, RistN said:

Whats next after itzal nerf and k-drive still sucks?  Nerfing operators?

Naramon + Zenurik = Blink/Wormhole doesn’t it?

So, like, maybe.

[xMarvin732]

I use the Itzal because its boring in Bounties to arrive at the point, i rush missions and during a time i forgot to switch from Odonata Prime back to Itzal, i realized how annoying it is to wait years till you arrive where you intend to go

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

On 2019-04-14 at 11:44 AM, vitreloy said:

DE thought that the reason player choose to use Itzal is because of that brink ability, which I disagree. 

No, its blink. 100% blink.

[selig_fay]

Le 4/15/2019 à 11:20 PM, VincentHelmic a dit :

The problem is that Itzal's abilities are basically what all Archwings should be anyways.  Blink feels good because it allows us to have these wide open maps without the boring bits of having a wide open map, namely having to actually walk everywhere.  And I still think Blink and Cosmic Crush should be completely removed.

All archwing skills are good. (Except Elytron, as its damage has long been weak, even for Venus). The problem is that even in open locations, their skills cannot be used because missing 1 missile (which can run any NPCs) you immediately fall down. That is relevant at the moment for archwing location is not really relevant. From here we get only a means of transportation and nothing more.

On rights advertising:

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by zhellon

[Ulvra]

Personally I'm fine with the itzal for the speed freaks out there, it's nice to have that as a fun option, though I personally stick to my amesha instead. They each have uses and that's a good thing, as do k-drives. For instance, k-drives might be slower, but you still get significantly higher speed than bullet jumping or sprinting while having the ability to maintain your ongoing abilities. If I for instance play equinox, I can move from point A to B without losing the accummulated bonus from my peaceful provokation augment. That is a significant benefit to the k-drives even if it doesn't apply as a necessary thing to a lot of frames.

That being said I would like it changed in such a way that the k-drive is your initial introduction as it is now, then the archwing comes in and takes over speed wise, but then you should be able to mod your k-drive so that it's faster than the archwing, unless you're using hyperion thrusters.

The reasoning for this is that if you want to mod your archwing to be super speed, that's fine, it's your choice and you should be rewarded, but you may have to give up something for it, in the form of a mod slot. Archwings have offensive uses, k-drives not so much, so modding for speed on a k-drive will naturally be more common and giving them an edge in the means of traversal. The problem right now is that even a full speed modded k-drive still doesn't hold up to the slowest archwing.

Finally the itzal, you get the speed with it and that's fine, it's its thing. In exchange you may give up other benefits that you could get from other archwings, but that's the point. I don't see anything wrong with the itzal, however archwings in general should have more use to make them feel like the choice matter a bit more. Say for instance the amesha, if that could block the annoying AA missiles that keep knocking you down I think a few people would sacrifice the speed to avoid having to worry so much. Say the AA missiles are changed so that they expend 5 charges of the amesha's first and only when you run out do you actually get knocked down.

As it is the other archwings just don't really have that much of a useful edge in open world and that to me seems more of a problem than the itzal's crazy speed.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

K-drives are stuck on the ground, around enemies, constantly. They should have combat capabilities beyond the little scraps given by a few mods.

* Ramming into enemies should be consequential, for the enemy.
* Landings should be like slam attacks.
* Spins and tricks should be given combat value like swinging a jet-powered weapon, and possibly provide a defensive bonus like bullet-jumping.
* Spins could reflect back projectile attacks and charging enemies could be flung back, taking the damage they would have dished out, as self-damage.
* It should be much harder to knock us off the K-drive, and mounting/dismounting should have a combat function as well.

Just a few ideas to make them have their own niche.

 

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

On 2019-04-05 at 3:05 PM, Lion said:

Scott has made it clear he wants to nerf Itzal because K-Drive sucks.

In my opinion, Itzal is not overperforming, K-Drive is just underperforming. Heck I can outrun a K-Drive with Loki.

Please just buff K-Drive and call it good.

 

what about the other Archwings? what use do i have for Elytron on Open worlds?

there are issues beyond "the only option that is benefical because its the fastest option there is"

DE needs to address how poor Archwing and K-Drive behave in general in all content... right now there is no benefit to K-drive or other Archwing because they are either too slow or provide no gameplay benefit AT ALL.

 

Itzal Blink is honestly just a symptom of a MUCH bigger problem that DE is attempting to gloss over because they want another easy way out.

Edited April 21, 2019 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[(PSN)Aneres_Omega]

So because kdrives outright suks(did he make the KD?) he wants to ruin a good AW that was created for speed and stealth?

Talk about petty

[selig_fay]

Il y a 4 heures, (PS4)ForNoPurpose a dit :

what about the other Archwings? what use do i have for Elytron on Open worlds?

You give an example of the most unsuccessful archwing. 

Amesha good support, slowdown, invulnerability and replenishment energy + protection facilities. Odonata these are Volt's personal shields for all teams. A good control similar to the control of Loki. Missiles do good damage, though they are almost never worth their energy. But this applies to all archwing abilities that deal damage. Even itzal.

The problem isn't ability. The problem is the positioning of the archwing in this game.  With the same success can be block operators, saying, that they fit only for hikes on hunt.

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by zhellon

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

3 hours ago, zhellon said:

You give an example of the most unsuccessful archwing. 

Amesha good support, slowdown, invulnerability and replenishment energy + protection facilities. Odonata these are Volt's personal shields for all teams. A good control similar to the control of Loki. Missiles do good damage, though they are almost never worth their energy. But this applies to all archwing abilities that deal damage. Even itzal.

The problem isn't ability. The problem is the positioning of the archwing in this game.  With the same success can be block operators, saying, that they fit only for hikes on hunt.

 

none of the archwings last. every single enemy can instantly knock you out of Archwing. none of the archwing abilities are as effective as normal frame abilities or weapons.

ability is exactly the problem. there is no benefit to any of the abilities beyond the speed and teleportation because everything else is effectively pointless.

damage abilities have no effect, at all at the highest teir bounties where normal frame abilities can still do plenty of damage. EVEN TESLAS CAN FUNCTION BETTER. fact is there is not enough mods for archwing and not enough base damage and scaling to begin with.

Even Amesha has no benefit compared to normal frame gameplay due to the intentional anti archwing systems designed specifically to remove it from gameplay.

 

this intentional counter play and the ineffective nature of damaging archwing abilities means there is no benefit to anything but the unique speed benefits of Itzal.. the playerbase has known this for ages. I see as many Ameshas as i do Itzal in actual archwing missions, as well as Eltyron and Odonata..

[selig_fay]

il y a 46 minutes, (PS4)ForNoPurpose a dit :

Even Amesha has no benefit compared to normal frame gameplay due to the intentional anti archwing systems designed specifically to remove it from gameplay.

I wrote about this above. The developers wanted to make it transport. This was the main mistake. But even so, I don't understand why interfere in the balance of archwing, if you can just block them skills. True archwing will still be faster than k-drives and they will have to reduce the speed.

But if DE thinks that people begin to use the Board, they are mistaken. There are at least 3 frames that simply say that the Board is a trash. It's Zephyr, Titania and Nova. And Yes. The operator is still faster than the Board. Nerf it.

The archwing mode itself is cool, but it doesn't have an endgame at all. So I understand their desire to adopt archwing mechanics for normal missions. But every update makes me feel like it's being done by a person who really hates archwing. And Titania for one.

Edited April 21, 2019 by zhellon

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I just wanted to remind DE that before Raids were removed, all Archwings had roles in the game that preceded the "Only Itzal meta"

• Odanata was extremely powerful for killing Jordas.
• Elytron was great for nuking when playing the Archwing portion of the raid
• Itzals Role was minimized but useful in allowing players to revive safely in archwing.

Then you released Ameesha following the new trend of "everything must be braindead easy and threw it all away.

Point is that all of your archwings performed a role allowing diversity in the selection. But of course you killed all of that from poor decision making.

I guess your actions have consequences. So go ahead and nerf Itzal. It really doesn't even matter as players will continuously look for the fastest way to get the job done.

[Woedenberg]

Just buff the mod "Hyperion Thrusters" by lowering it's base capacity from 10 to 5 (level 0), and buff it's max  % stat to something like 40%.



https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Hyperion_Thrusters

 

[RedShiftZero]

Hey guys - Scott in particular. I used a time-based multiplier on my acceleration in flight code for something years back, and it's something I've pictured in Warframe for a while.

You could implement something similar into Warframe by making Afterburners have an acceleration the longer you boost, up to a *very* high maximum. That way, in the open maps, archwings would have a much higher functional speed. The system I had written was very simple, while the input was held it would add to a stored 'acceleration' value; when it was released, the value would be constantly subtracted from. (Hitting an obstacle would reset it.) The value would be added to up to a certain maximum - all you've gotta do is work out that maximum to provide comparable mobility to blink in the wide spaces. The upside of implementing a system like this would be that it would increase the top end of mobility for every archwing, but like blink, it would only be able to see its full potential in the asteroid fields, or over the open worlds.

If something like this was emplaced... You could nuke blink to hell and I wouldn't care. I'm betting most people that currently rely on it would feel the same.

[Grav_Starstrider]

To put it extremely simply, DE doesn't like how Itzal's mobility becomes choice-prohibitive when it comes to selecting an Archwing for use in the open world, both over other Archwings, and for K-Drives. None of us like blatant nerfs, and we don't want to see Itzal's mobility completely gutted, or all Archwing mobility gutted in order for K-Drives to seem a more attractive option. So I propose the following changes.

Make Itzal's blink more cost-effective, accurate, and with more utility and additional effects, in exchange for a decrease in the spammyness. Currently, the meta I know for mobility is to drop 2 energy pads to quickly get your energy maxed, and then you can burn through it all in a few seconds of blinking to the desired location (to the eidolon shrine or teleported eidolon, to the toroid farming spots, etc). One burns through the energy surprisingly quickly, especially when you add in using the Itzal's 3 or 4 along the way or at the end, to pull in resources or kill nearby enemies.
So we could make Blink better by giving it a charge mechanic, with a visual indicator of where it's going, to aid precision. Spamming the uncharged blink would feel the same as the current way, but shorter range and requiring more clicks and overall energy. Make it so that for an absolutely fractional amount more, you can charge the blink up to go further. If DE implements more spy-like mechanics in Archwing, Railjack, or Trials, being able to invisibly, discreetly teleport to an exact position for a lower energy cost, would be great! Additional features you could add to make this a net side-grade or upgrade rather than a downgrade or nerf, would be to implement synergy with archmelee and with cosmic crush, where a partially/completely charged blink could be activated with melee or cosmic crush, as an epic, hero-moment dash-attack using either just melee, or more energy. There's also the option of allowing a small portion of movement after blinking to not break Penumbra's invisibility, so that less-accurate blinks in stealth aren't as punishing. I'd let DE figure out the numbers, but I think making Blink have more versatility and synergy can offset a nerf to max speed without it feeling like a really blatant, obnoxious nerf.

But just fixing the Itzal doesn't fix the problem of Archwings feeling vastly superior for movement and combat, compared to K-Drives. My proposal: Buff K-Drive max speed, enable K-Drive combat with a toggle of the alternate fire mode button, or just integrated by default, so that people can use their secondary weapon and certain Warframe powers while on the K-Drive. If Nezha, Volt, Saryn, or Valkyr's speed-altering abilities carry over to K-Drive, you now have really interesting and competitive alternatives to Itzal Blinks for open-world traversal, and even without their speed abilities, you now don't have to trade ALL of your warframe's abilities for some speed (I'm thinking predominantly just allow one-handed ability casts). You can also implement K-Drive unique combat mechanics a bit more. Clean it up so that K-Drive goomba-stomping doesn't instant-kill, but rather make it so that there's a style-meter or something, which spikes up when performing K Drive kills or tricks, but decays over time, and it affects the damage of K-Drive attacks (running into/over enemies, or stomping on top of them). Make the meter also function as a nitro-fuel-tank, so that if people wanna move fast, they can do some sick tricks and use the meter for mobility and traversal rather than building up actual combat viability.

 

tl;dr nerf max speed of Itzal Blink while giving it a wealth of QoL and bonus features to offset, and to make K-Drive a viable mobility option, expand K-Drive functionality to include more combat and mobility options.

[Twilight_Researcher]

I think the more adequate question is working with what Itzal is trying to solve in regards to mobility problems and addressing that across all Archwings. 

Your ideas with K-drives are worth looking into though. Deadly hoverboards sound pretty cool to me.