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Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

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Posted (edited)
Le 4/15/2019 à 11:20 PM, VincentHelmic a dit :

The problem is that Itzal's abilities are basically what all Archwings should be anyways.  Blink feels good because it allows us to have these wide open maps without the boring bits of having a wide open map, namely having to actually walk everywhere.  And I still think Blink and Cosmic Crush should be completely removed.

All archwing skills are good. (Except Elytron, as its damage has long been weak, even for Venus). The problem is that even in open locations, their skills cannot be used because missing 1 missile (which can run any NPCs) you immediately fall down. That is relevant at the moment for archwing location is not really relevant. From here we get only a means of transportation and nothing more.

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Edited by zhellon

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Personally I'm fine with the itzal for the speed freaks out there, it's nice to have that as a fun option, though I personally stick to my amesha instead. They each have uses and that's a good thing, as do k-drives. For instance, k-drives might be slower, but you still get significantly higher speed than bullet jumping or sprinting while having the ability to maintain your ongoing abilities. If I for instance play equinox, I can move from point A to B without losing the accummulated bonus from my peaceful provokation augment. That is a significant benefit to the k-drives even if it doesn't apply as a necessary thing to a lot of frames.

That being said I would like it changed in such a way that the k-drive is your initial introduction as it is now, then the archwing comes in and takes over speed wise, but then you should be able to mod your k-drive so that it's faster than the archwing, unless you're using hyperion thrusters.

The reasoning for this is that if you want to mod your archwing to be super speed, that's fine, it's your choice and you should be rewarded, but you may have to give up something for it, in the form of a mod slot. Archwings have offensive uses, k-drives not so much, so modding for speed on a k-drive will naturally be more common and giving them an edge in the means of traversal. The problem right now is that even a full speed modded k-drive still doesn't hold up to the slowest archwing.

Finally the itzal, you get the speed with it and that's fine, it's its thing. In exchange you may give up other benefits that you could get from other archwings, but that's the point. I don't see anything wrong with the itzal, however archwings in general should have more use to make them feel like the choice matter a bit more. Say for instance the amesha, if that could block the annoying AA missiles that keep knocking you down I think a few people would sacrifice the speed to avoid having to worry so much. Say the AA missiles are changed so that they expend 5 charges of the amesha's first and only when you run out do you actually get knocked down.

As it is the other archwings just don't really have that much of a useful edge in open world and that to me seems more of a problem than the itzal's crazy speed.

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K-drives are stuck on the ground, around enemies, constantly. They should have combat capabilities beyond the little scraps given by a few mods.

* Ramming into enemies should be consequential, for the enemy.
* Landings should be like slam attacks.
* Spins and tricks should be given combat value like swinging a jet-powered weapon, and possibly provide a defensive bonus like bullet-jumping.
* Spins could reflect back projectile attacks and charging enemies could be flung back, taking the damage they would have dished out, as self-damage.
* It should be much harder to knock us off the K-drive, and mounting/dismounting should have a combat function as well.

Just a few ideas to make them have their own niche.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-04-05 at 3:05 PM, Lion said:

Scott has made it clear he wants to nerf Itzal because K-Drive sucks.

In my opinion, Itzal is not overperforming, K-Drive is just underperforming. Heck I can outrun a K-Drive with Loki.

Please just buff K-Drive and call it good.

 

what about the other Archwings? what use do i have for Elytron on Open worlds?

there are issues beyond "the only option that is benefical because its the fastest option there is"

DE needs to address how poor Archwing and K-Drive behave in general in all content... right now there is no benefit to K-drive or other Archwing because they are either too slow or provide no gameplay benefit AT ALL.

 

Itzal Blink is honestly just a symptom of a MUCH bigger problem that DE is attempting to gloss over because they want another easy way out.

Edited by (PS4)ForNoPurpose
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So because kdrives outright suks(did he make the KD?) he wants to ruin a good AW that was created for speed and stealth?

Talk about petty

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Posted (edited)
Il y a 4 heures, (PS4)ForNoPurpose a dit :

what about the other Archwings? what use do i have for Elytron on Open worlds?

You give an example of the most unsuccessful archwing. 

Amesha good support, slowdown, invulnerability and replenishment energy + protection facilities. Odonata these are Volt's personal shields for all teams. A good control similar to the control of Loki. Missiles do good damage, though they are almost never worth their energy. But this applies to all archwing abilities that deal damage. Even itzal.

The problem isn't ability. The problem is the positioning of the archwing in this game.  With the same success can be block operators, saying, that they fit only for hikes on hunt.

 

Edited by zhellon

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3 hours ago, zhellon said:

You give an example of the most unsuccessful archwing. 

Amesha good support, slowdown, invulnerability and replenishment energy + protection facilities. Odonata these are Volt's personal shields for all teams. A good control similar to the control of Loki. Missiles do good damage, though they are almost never worth their energy. But this applies to all archwing abilities that deal damage. Even itzal.

The problem isn't ability. The problem is the positioning of the archwing in this game.  With the same success can be block operators, saying, that they fit only for hikes on hunt.

 

none of the archwings last. every single enemy can instantly knock you out of Archwing. none of the archwing abilities are as effective as normal frame abilities or weapons.

ability is exactly the problem. there is no benefit to any of the abilities beyond the speed and teleportation because everything else is effectively pointless.

damage abilities have no effect, at all at the highest teir bounties where normal frame abilities can still do plenty of damage. EVEN TESLAS CAN FUNCTION BETTER. fact is there is not enough mods for archwing and not enough base damage and scaling to begin with.

Even Amesha has no benefit compared to normal frame gameplay due to the intentional anti archwing systems designed specifically to remove it from gameplay.

 

this intentional counter play and the ineffective nature of damaging archwing abilities means there is no benefit to anything but the unique speed benefits of Itzal.. the playerbase has known this for ages. I see as many Ameshas as i do Itzal in actual archwing missions, as well as Eltyron and Odonata..

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Posted (edited)
il y a 46 minutes, (PS4)ForNoPurpose a dit :

Even Amesha has no benefit compared to normal frame gameplay due to the intentional anti archwing systems designed specifically to remove it from gameplay.

I wrote about this above. The developers wanted to make it transport. This was the main mistake. But even so, I don't understand why interfere in the balance of archwing, if you can just block them skills. True archwing will still be faster than k-drives and they will have to reduce the speed.

But if DE thinks that people begin to use the Board, they are mistaken. There are at least 3 frames that simply say that the Board is a trash. It's Zephyr, Titania and Nova. And Yes. The operator is still faster than the Board. Nerf it.

The archwing mode itself is cool, but it doesn't have an endgame at all. So I understand their desire to adopt archwing mechanics for normal missions. But every update makes me feel like it's being done by a person who really hates archwing. And Titania for one.

Edited by zhellon

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I just wanted to remind DE that before Raids were removed, all Archwings had roles in the game that preceded the "Only Itzal meta"

  • Odanata was extremely powerful for killing Jordas.
  • Elytron was great for nuking when playing the Archwing portion of the raid
  • Itzals Role was minimized but useful in allowing players to revive safely in archwing.

Then you released Ameesha following the new trend of "everything must be braindead easy and threw it all away.

Point is that all of your archwings performed a role allowing diversity in the selection. But of course you killed all of that from poor decision making.

I guess your actions have consequences. So go ahead and nerf Itzal. It really doesn't even matter as players will continuously look for the fastest way to get the job done.

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Hey guys - Scott in particular. I used a time-based multiplier on my acceleration in flight code for something years back, and it's something I've pictured in Warframe for a while.

You could implement something similar into Warframe by making Afterburners have an acceleration the longer you boost, up to a *very* high maximum. That way, in the open maps, archwings would have a much higher functional speed. The system I had written was very simple, while the input was held it would add to a stored 'acceleration' value; when it was released, the value would be constantly subtracted from. (Hitting an obstacle would reset it.) The value would be added to up to a certain maximum - all you've gotta do is work out that maximum to provide comparable mobility to blink in the wide spaces. The upside of implementing a system like this would be that it would increase the top end of mobility for every archwing, but like blink, it would only be able to see its full potential in the asteroid fields, or over the open worlds.

If something like this was emplaced... You could nuke blink to hell and I wouldn't care. I'm betting most people that currently rely on it would feel the same.

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To put it extremely simply, DE doesn't like how Itzal's mobility becomes choice-prohibitive when it comes to selecting an Archwing for use in the open world, both over other Archwings, and for K-Drives. None of us like blatant nerfs, and we don't want to see Itzal's mobility completely gutted, or all Archwing mobility gutted in order for K-Drives to seem a more attractive option. So I propose the following changes.

Make Itzal's blink more cost-effective, accurate, and with more utility and additional effects, in exchange for a decrease in the spammyness. Currently, the meta I know for mobility is to drop 2 energy pads to quickly get your energy maxed, and then you can burn through it all in a few seconds of blinking to the desired location (to the eidolon shrine or teleported eidolon, to the toroid farming spots, etc). One burns through the energy surprisingly quickly, especially when you add in using the Itzal's 3 or 4 along the way or at the end, to pull in resources or kill nearby enemies.
So we could make Blink better by giving it a charge mechanic, with a visual indicator of where it's going, to aid precision. Spamming the uncharged blink would feel the same as the current way, but shorter range and requiring more clicks and overall energy. Make it so that for an absolutely fractional amount more, you can charge the blink up to go further. If DE implements more spy-like mechanics in Archwing, Railjack, or Trials, being able to invisibly, discreetly teleport to an exact position for a lower energy cost, would be great! Additional features you could add to make this a net side-grade or upgrade rather than a downgrade or nerf, would be to implement synergy with archmelee and with cosmic crush, where a partially/completely charged blink could be activated with melee or cosmic crush, as an epic, hero-moment dash-attack using either just melee, or more energy. There's also the option of allowing a small portion of movement after blinking to not break Penumbra's invisibility, so that less-accurate blinks in stealth aren't as punishing. I'd let DE figure out the numbers, but I think making Blink have more versatility and synergy can offset a nerf to max speed without it feeling like a really blatant, obnoxious nerf.

But just fixing the Itzal doesn't fix the problem of Archwings feeling vastly superior for movement and combat, compared to K-Drives. My proposal: Buff K-Drive max speed, enable K-Drive combat with a toggle of the alternate fire mode button, or just integrated by default, so that people can use their secondary weapon and certain Warframe powers while on the K-Drive. If Nezha, Volt, Saryn, or Valkyr's speed-altering abilities carry over to K-Drive, you now have really interesting and competitive alternatives to Itzal Blinks for open-world traversal, and even without their speed abilities, you now don't have to trade ALL of your warframe's abilities for some speed (I'm thinking predominantly just allow one-handed ability casts). You can also implement K-Drive unique combat mechanics a bit more. Clean it up so that K-Drive goomba-stomping doesn't instant-kill, but rather make it so that there's a style-meter or something, which spikes up when performing K Drive kills or tricks, but decays over time, and it affects the damage of K-Drive attacks (running into/over enemies, or stomping on top of them). Make the meter also function as a nitro-fuel-tank, so that if people wanna move fast, they can do some sick tricks and use the meter for mobility and traversal rather than building up actual combat viability.

 

tl;dr nerf max speed of Itzal Blink while giving it a wealth of QoL and bonus features to offset, and to make K-Drive a viable mobility option, expand K-Drive functionality to include more combat and mobility options.

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I think the more adequate question is working with what Itzal is trying to solve in regards to mobility problems and addressing that across all Archwings. 

Your ideas with K-drives are worth looking into though. Deadly hoverboards sound pretty cool to me. 

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I personally think significantly buffing all of the archwings in order to be potent alternatives to Itzal's mobility would only further widen the gap between K-Drive lack of use compared to Archwing for a lot of players. I'm kinda feeling like a slight nerf to the burst-speed of consecutive itzal blinks is needed to trim the Itzal down into line with the other Archwings a smidge, and then K-Drive needs the buffs and additional mechanics in order for it to be worth using over Archwing.

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Posted (edited)

They could make Nitro Boost a 10 ranks mod with +55% increased boost speed and remove the unnecessary duration from Magus drive.

In terms of nerfing Itzal I´d prefer another solution. Currently people only use Archwings to get from point A to point B as fast as possible. If they get another purpose this problem might be solved as well.

Edited by Arcira

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People will tend to do things the most quick and efficient way possible, so it'll be hard to make Archwings not the best option for mobility, but I personally think that's fine, they should just try to close the gap a bit by nerfing/changing Itzal just a smidge, and buffing K Drives. Just to make Archwings less choice-prohibitively worse to choose, and the Itzal less choice-prohibitively better for mobility than the other Archwings.

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1 hour ago, Arcira said:

They could make Nitro Boost a 10 ranks mod with +55% increased boost speed and remove the unnecessary duration from Magus drive.

In terms of nerfing Itzal I´d prefer another solution. Currently people only use Archwings to get from point A to point B as fast as possible. If they get another purpose this problem might be solved as well.

the only reason they are lacking in purpose is because of rockets that take you out of them. all the boss fights could have some fighting in archwing mode and some on the ground but the rockets say no.

i am on the side of blink needing to go. its not like hyperion thrusters doesnt exist. itzal speed is pretty fast even without the blink and losing it will not even be a loss. archwings are still faster than K-Drive

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5 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

the only reason they are lacking in purpose is because of rockets that take you out of them. all the boss fights could have some fighting in archwing mode and some on the ground but the rockets say no.

^ So much this. I'd love to use archwing in PoE or Vallis for anything else than moving from point A to point B, the rocket spam make it tedious and even "defensive" ability (whole Amesha kit...) are useless.

I've tried using K-drive as vehicules, they are just too slow and you're a burden to your team. K-drive are slow, you can't deal damages, and you can't even buff your allies...

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My hope would definitely be that they rework some of the archwing mechanics, like the anti-aircraft rockets that knock you out of archwing. I find that half of the time, the abilities that are supposed to be explicitly defensive anti-anti-aircraft-projectile abilities, like blink or penumbra or core vent or flares, tend to not actually work against their archwing nukes. Not fun. The abilities meant to foil incoming projectiles should do so, and you should also have the ability to shoot down the incoming missiles. 

But the perceived "problem" of Itzal being the indisputed meta archwing, and archwings being indisputably more efficient mobility AND combat than the dedicated-vehicular K-Drives calls for bringing up the K-Drives to be comparable alternatives to archwing, and to bring the archwings a little bit more in line with each other. There's clearly some people that think blink is a problem and should be removed, and then there are other people that think the other archwings need movement buffs instead of nerfing or removing the itzal's blink's mobility, but the problem is that it would make it even more choice prohibitive to choose archwing over k drive, if they just buffed all archwing mobility except for itzal. 

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What about giving all Archwings a movement mod slot similar to the Exilus Adapter/something new adapter slot?  Move all movement related things to that slot.  I believe you would only have to change Itzal's first ability.  Now you can balance all movement abilities vs one another and the archwing themselves aren't dependent on best movement options.  Right now there is only Hyperion Thrusters I believe that affects movement.

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Scott already further adressed this last devstream. It appears that the focus is not just on Itzal but on other Archwings too, to make them all as good. And that way I believe we can rest assured that whatever change comes it'll be good since the focus is in the right place.

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25 minutes ago, Flambeau83 said:

Hyperion Thrusters

At the same time, the mod cost should be addressed for it is insane being the one and only mod that has 20 drain for only a mere 27.5% speed increase.

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The go to knee-jerk response to the community at large gravitating to any given game mechanic cannot continue to be "I'm going to nerf the s*** out of this!" If the developers follow through on gutting the Itzal there are a lot of people who are going to take it as the last straw and quit WF. Many more are going to stop doing Archwings at all and STILL not use the K-drive. If you dont like people dissing the K-drive, change it to make it more desirable. If it becomes useful and fun, the community will use it. Take a lesson from the addition of Fetch to pets. I have run my pets consistently since they have received Fetch. The Itzal is my go to because of the Cosmic Crush ability, not because of Blink. Also, I like the fighter swarm. Killing a popular game mechanic will not cause people to choose a poorly implemented mechanic. Personally, I will bullet jump betwern points rather than be bullied into using something I do not like to use.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Th3BelovedSaint said:

The go to knee-jerk response to the community at large gravitating to any given game mechanic cannot continue to be "I'm going to nerf the s*** out of this!" If the developers follow through on gutting the Itzal there are a lot of people who are going to take it as the last straw and quit WF. Many more are going to stop doing Archwings at all and STILL not use the K-drive. If you dont like people dissing the K-drive, change it to make it more desirable. If it becomes useful and fun, the community will use it. Take a lesson from the addition of Fetch to pets. I have run my pets consistently since they have received Fetch. The Itzal is my go to because of the Cosmic Crush ability, not because of Blink. Also, I like the fighter swarm. Killing a popular game mechanic will not cause people to choose a poorly implemented mechanic. Personally, I will bullet jump betwern points rather than be bullied into using something I do not like to use.

doubt it. itzal not being able to blink is not the end of the world. it is still faster than all other archwings. really DE should have disabled the use of archwings in orb valis if they wanted K-Drives to even have a chance. they did not.

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On 2019-05-04 at 4:25 PM, Grav_Starstrider said:

Make Itzal's blink more cost-effective, accurate, and with more utility and additional effects, in exchange for a decrease in the spammyness

Not sure how this helps. It's not that the Itzal's spammy, the problem is that Itzal is so much better at solving the problem than anything else.

The solution? Fix the problem: we don't want to spend ages traversing the world.

1. When travelling in to a open world allow users to pick a starting point - for that Vallis this could be any of the capture-able bases.

2. Allow users to Save & Exit from anywhere in the open world.

3. For bounties automatically start close to the entry point and keep every chained incursion within 300m of the last one. If I have to travel over a click then I'm gonna bring the Iztal.

4. Like you said: give k drives more utility. There are a bunch of ways to do this, but I'd suggest:

5. Archwings give enemies a heads up, they know you're coming. As long as you don't use an archwing within 300m of a mission start you get damage, affinity and rep bonuses. Walk or kboard to a mission and you get benefits you don't if you fly.

These would only work all together, nobody's going to kboard over 1km for a small bonus, but if they know the next mission is no more than 300m away AND they get a bonus by skating there (rather than flying) then the benefits outweigh the Iztal's speed.

 

 

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