Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

[Rogunz]

4 minutes ago, Aejan said:

This has nothing to do with speed. 

It's not that the Iztal is too fast, it's that it is the optimal, "meta" choice. If you don't pick it, you are playing wrong. There is no drawback, no tradeoff to gaining the benefit of the Iztal versus a different Archwing. It has a monopoly on Archwing usage in open world.

Because you can't use Archwings for anything but transport without being constantly knocked out of the sky. That's what they need to fix if they want people to use anything but the fastest Archwing.

 

[Hawner]

hace 8 minutos, NeroAugustine dijo:

Which is why we create situational nerfs as opposed to stat-based nerfs.
Make players want to use the other archwings for specific situations. Make every model attractive for different reasons, as opposed to boring because they are all the same.

2

Nerfing the Itzal to make the other model more appealing by, let's say, disabling the Blink will not change the player's choosing. Itzal will still have invisibility, radial pulling and a squad of drones as its abilities. That makes it the best no matter how you look at it. To make other models more appealing, you would have to completely redesign Itzal or get rid of it completely.

Just the same as Ivara is the best at spy missions, Rhino at tanking, Nyx at CCing and Ash at One-target-killing is because they are the best at what they do. Itzal is, simply, the best at what it does, which is being an excellent space/suborbital transport and combat gear.

Want the other models to be noticed? Make them more useful, not the Itzal less so.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Hawner

[Ikusi_Prime]

Just now, (NSW)Katsuro said:

how can someone with wukong compete with a max speed volt in a capture mission?
With the same logic volt will have a rework in the future so who knows

Because there's other missions than Capture missions. Show me a max-speed Volt that can do a defense mission better than Gara, or nuke an Onslaught zone like Saryn, or stroll through a spy mission like Limbo. Other frames compete with Volt because speed isn't the only thing you need. 

There's no other missions for Archwing in the open world. They are used for getting from point A to point B, and Iztal objectively does it the best. If you don't bring Iztal, you are playing the game suboptimally. 

What we really need is more things to do with Archwings, both in and out of the open world areas. Archwing-only bounties, like shooting down a giant ship high in the sky, defending a carrier ship, or fighting an Eidolon from the Archwing, something that requires sustained action and combat in an Archwing, would actually let other Archwings shine. The coming of Railjack and the rework to the Archwing system is what really needs attention. 

I hear you, it seems S#&$ty and out of the blue and totally undeserved, but the devs want everybody to be able to play what they want without it being painfully obvious that they aren't using the correct thing that everybody else is using. 

I would love to be able to bring my Amesha to the Plains. I love the look, I love the playstyle, and it would be so cool to be like this guardian angel above my teammates on the ground, but I have to use Iztal to keep up with everybody in a mission or simply travel around the open world efficiently. The Iztal isn't just the fastest, it is SO fast that everything else seems slow by comparison. 

 

[Variks_Prime]

18 minutes ago, Hawner said:

If all the utility goes to the archwings is because THEY CAN USE IT WAY BETTER THAN A K-DRIVE. Again, why do you want a K-drive to have an Archwing's speed if you are probably going to be hitting walls, rocks, trees, enemies and whatever in your way? Do you know why the archwings are so fast? Because up in the air THERE IS NOTHING TO HIT IN YOUR WAY! Why do you want the K-drive to use abilities if you are not maneuverable enough to use it efficiently and correctly BECAUSE YOU ARE STILL ON GROUND? Better yet, on a very awkward skateboard that doesn't allow you to move as fast as an archwing or as nimble as when on your own feet?

That's why K-Drive jump exists, and could have even more mods added to buff it.

[NeroAugustine]

1 minute ago, Hawner said:

Nerfing the Itzal to make the other model more appealing by, let's say, disabling the Blink will not change the player's choosing. Itzal will still have invisibility, radial pulling and a squad of drones as its abilities. That makes it the best no matter how you look at it. To make other models more appealing, you would have to completely redesign Itzal or get rid of it completely.

Just the same as Ivara is the best at spy missions, Rhino at tanking, Nyx at CCing and Ash t One-target-killing is because they are the best at what they do. Itzal is, simply, the best at what it does, which is being an excellent space/suborbital transport and combat gear.

Want the other models to be noticed? Make them more useful, not the Itzal less so.

My specific means of 'not nerfing' the Itzal and making the others viable is simple, and non-disruptive.
nstead of nerfing the Itzal completely, do what you have done with the heavy weapons, to the Archwings themselves.
There are three Archwing environments:
-Space
-Aquatic
-Atmosphereic

Amesha would be perfect for mastering atmospheric flightspace. Aoe, and support needs a present but malleable element to flourish in.
Itzal would be space, as it deals in gravitational and light manipulation. No need to muddy up the playing field with air and gravitational pull.
Elytron, lastly, would be a good aquatic archwing. It's powerful thrusters, and heavy duty explosives need a medium to reverberate through.
Odonata would, of course, be a good jack of all trades, specifically balanced to perform reasonably well in all environments.

You wouldn't have to completely nerf Itzal. Just don't make it overall best in all travel situations.

[Ikusi_Prime]

5 minutes ago, Rogunz said:

Because you can't use Archwings for anything but transport without being constantly knocked out of the sky. That's what they need to fix if they want people to use anything but the fastest Archwing.

 

I totally agree. We need more reasons to use the Archwings and fight with Archwings in the open world. Archwing-only bounties or a flying Eidolon to chase and fight would encourage people to actually use the Archwings for more that just getting around and would allow the strengths of the other Archwings to shine. 

[Variks_Prime]

17 minutes ago, Gorgoroth said:

Still doesn't mean they can't combine them, or with any of the other abilities. I'm just looking at the abilities and basing my judgements on that, I don't use any other archwing other than Itzal so I don't even remember what the other archwings do.

And jumping and teleporting on a k-drive sounds clunky and terrible, sorry. K-drives are fine as they are, DE just needs to accept that people use archwings, specifically Itzal, because they are faster. And my suggestion is to give Blink to all the archwings, like they gave Vacuum to all the pets/sentinels.

Transferrence is currently unused on archwings, how about we just put teleport on that and keep the existing abilities, maybe add one to itzal?

 

And as-is, what use even are K-Drives? No one uses them.

[(NSW)Katsuro]

3 minutes ago, Aejan said:

Because there's other missions than Capture missions. Show me a max-speed Volt that can do a defense mission better than Gara, or nuke an Onslaught zone like Saryn, or stroll through a spy mission like Limbo. Other frames compete with Volt because speed isn't the only thing you need. 

There's no other missions for Archwing in the open world. They are used for getting from point A to point B, and Iztal objectively does it the best. If you don't bring Iztal, you are playing the game suboptimally. 

What we really need is more things to do with Archwings, both in and out of the open world areas. Archwing-only bounties, like shooting down a giant ship high in the sky, defending a carrier ship, or fighting an Eidolon from the Archwing, something that requires sustained action and combat in an Archwing, would actually let other Archwings shine. The coming of Railjack and the rework to the Archwing system is what really needs attention. 

I hear you, it seems S#&$ty and out of the blue and totally undeserved, but the devs want everybody to be able to play what they want without it being painfully obvious that they aren't using the correct thing that everybody else is using. 

I would love to be able to bring my Amesha to the Plains. I love the look, I love the playstyle, and it would be so cool to be like this guardian angel above my teammates on the ground, but I have to use Iztal to keep up with everybody in a mission or simply travel around the open world efficiently. The Iztal isn't just the fastest, it is SO fast that everything else seems slow by comparison. 

 

I never had that issue before I got itzal so I dont see the big deal but whatever let the nerfs come

[--F--NerevarCM]

Jesus Christ.......

[Variks_Prime]

14 minutes ago, OmegaZero said:

People asking for K-drive speed buffs probably haven’t tried Magus Drive on a board modded for max speed. It’s extremely difficult to get to point B without cratering at least once, whether the culprit is a sharp incline or a small rock. The speed makes it hard to react in time to avoid tripping on your face.

Yet people want them to go even faster? Yeesh, I can already see the complaints if that ever hits.

Buffing the normal movement speed would be a mistake. Itzal doesn't use his normal movement speed, he uses a teleport ability. K-Drives need one, and maybe an even higher jump to complement it. THEN you basically have Itzal TP on a K-Drive, and more than 0.01% of players would actually get on a K-Drive on a daily basis.

[Tovon]

I am having a hard time telling if spamming this type of thread is a meme or if people don't know what jokes are. Someone please enlighten me.

[Xico.xide]

I think this thread was a mistake.

[rainmaker170]

1 hour ago, auxy said:

Well, I think we have a bit of a philosophical disagreement there. This is a question of where your rights end and mine begin.
Do you have the right to waste my time? I mean, that's what you're doing when you join my bounty and derp around on a K-Drive.
You can bloviate about personal freedom all you want but the reality is:

• You signed up for a task and are lollygagging instead of doing the task efficiently.

Your post is pretty aggressive, by which I actually mean defensive.
It seems like someone got onto you for using a K-Drive in bounties.
I'm not saying that happened. That's just what it sounds like.

Whether or not it happened, you clearly have the opinion that people aren't responsible for how their actions affect others.
So if I decide to bring a bunch of unranked weapons with no mods into a level 50-60 mission, that's fine, right?
Or if I elect to participate in voice chat by shouting in the mic, that's OK too?
After all, "you don't control people's actions, they do what they want to."
And I shouldn't get annoyed with them for doing what they want, right?

I hope those extreme examples have made you realize the error of your ways. It's a very silly viewpoint.
Obviously, people are responsible for how their actions impact the experiences of others.
There's "controlling another person," and then there's "having reasonable expectations for the behavior of others."
They're not the same thing. Flouting conventional expectations of behavior might be fun, but it's also inconsiderate and self-indulgent.

If you want to K-drive around in bounties, sure! I'm down for that. I like K-Drives; I think they're fun, and I like riding them.
But if you don't say "hey let's ride K-drives" I'm going to use my archwing as any reasonable player would expect others to do.
And then I'm going to be annoyed at you for lollygagging instead of efficiently working toward completing the objective as a team.

However you take it, I can't agree with this enough, and I hope a lot of people read it and consider it rationally. This kind of thing seems to come up a lot in warframe with just no reason. Whatever your stance on the recent changes to extraction from endless missions, I feel like it could have been solved between players with just a little bit of communication and awareness, and just was not necessary. We had tools to deal with that kind of thing already. A little of topic, but something I find relatable.

The situation is a bit different here, I find. As much as such a thing could and should be easily solved with communication regarding how swiftly you might like to complete your mission, the fact is that there isn't much of a trade-off when it comes to using K-Drives over archwings. Archwings currently just offer more functionality in regards to warframe's game-play.

You can do tricks, and thats neat, but with archwings you have speed, use of weapons, abilities, etc. K-Drives just dont offer much that is realistically useful at the moment. Solving this may or may not require changing or removing certain archwing abilities, but it will certainly require looking into both systems to make them behave as seamless parts of the game, each with their own benefits. This was the biggest issue with archwing when it was released, I find, and is something that is still being worked on with railjack to make it a more integrated part of the game, the last I had heard. The biggest issue being that it was such a separate part of the game, with no real reason to do it, no downside for not doing it, and I get the same impression from the K-Drives at this point.

If the ability, or all of the archwings need to be looked and, as with the K-Drives, to make the systems more cohesive for both, I'm willing to see what comes of it. Removing coptering sounded like a pretty big deal, but Im happy with the system we got, and enjoy not mashing my face into too many walls with all of my built up velocity.

Edited April 5, 2019 by rainmaker170
typonihilation

[Hawner]

hace 12 minutos, Variks_Prime dijo:

That's why K-Drive jump exists, and could have even more mods added to buff it.

So, you want to make high jumps in front of the enemies? Think that will stop them from hitting you? You actually want to make 100-200 meters high jumps with a skateboard? Do you think that is logic? Would that solve the problem of its speed or bypass any of the difficulties I mentioned earlier? no.

 

hace 12 minutos, NeroAugustine dijo:

My specific means of 'not nerfing' the Itzal and making the others viable is simple, and non-disruptive.
nstead of nerfing the Itzal completely, do what you have done with the heavy weapons, to the Archwings themselves.
There are three Archwing environments:
-Space
-Aquatic
-Atmosphereic

Amesha would be perfect for mastering atmospheric flightspace. Aoe, and support needs a present but malleable element to flourish in.
Itzal would be space, as it deals in gravitational and light manipulation. No need to muddy up the playing field with air and gravitational pull.
Elytron, lastly, would be a good aquatic archwing. It's powerful thrusters, and heavy duty explosives need a medium to reverberate through.
Odonata would, of course, be a good jack of all trades, specifically balanced to perform reasonably well in all environments.

You wouldn't have to completely nerf Itzal. Just don't make it overall best in all travel situations.

You know what the problem with all that is? That you fail to see the "Loki paradigm": If you are invisible, you can't be targeted or shot at. That is why Loki is so good at any kind of mission that involves sneaking around or kill an army. As long as he is an option in your own personal rooster of warframes to use on missions, he is going to be, at least, on the top 5 best frames for it.

Iztal can, while invisible, pull enemies towards you, making the shooting easier.

And, to finish all that, it can summon drones that attacks enemies while you remain invisible.

So Itzal would still be the best, you just wouldn't be able to use it "because you don't want us to".

Since Archwings are all jetpacks, they all share one function, which is transport the warframe around. If all 4 of them are archwings and not one jetpack, one submarine, one space shuttle and one combat craft, they can't be separated that way. They all work the same, they all can work in the same places.

So, your idea does not work unless you leave 1 Archwing, and 1 only; 1 submarine, and 1 only; etc... because that is what you are actually doing, and it will still not help with the problem that one will be better than the others. You are just forcing players to use the rest instead of giving them choices.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Hawner

[auxy]

2 minutes ago, rainmaker170 said:

Removing coptering sounded like a pretty big deal, but Im happy with the system we got, and enjoy not mashing my face into too many walls with all of my built up velocity.

Warframe definitely needs horizontal falling damage.

So I can kill myself every time I play my 300%-Strength Zephyr.

[peterc3]

35 minutes ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

I just hope they dont nerf volt speed next

Volt can apply that buff to every frame in the squad. Itzal's Blink does not.

34 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Itzal, in 2019 Warframe, is literally the only reason a newplayer will have a slight interest in Archwing.

If the only interest is because it travels across OV fast, that doesn't mean what you are saying it means. It isn't actually interest in Archwings. Changing it has literally no effect on Railjack. This is wildly off target hyperbole.

[BlindStalker]

Forgive me and please allow me to apologize as I am sincere about this. I don't mean to bring a philosophical debate in this topic. And I do regret what I wrote in that paragraph because it became much more off-topic when I re-read it over again. It was also defensive and brash and I agree on that. It also was written with the ideas mixed in about what others have suggested to me as advice/told to me before. It probably came out like that, because there are certain things that I'm more scared about being taken away (not related to this topic about k-drives and the Itzal). So there probably was some fear that rose up from me. So there might be some things that I'm concerned about related to some personal freedom of choices in Warframe that I don't want taken away. I don't mean to be confrontational, sorry if I come off as that. This reply I hope better communicates things.

3 hours ago, auxy said:

It seems like someone got onto you for using a K-Drive in bounties.
I'm not saying that happened. That's just what it sounds like.

I run my bounties primarily solo. Sometimes with friends but rarely have I ever done public bounties. I actually use the Itzal or Amesha to move around between objectives, rarely do I pull out the k-drive to move between places.

3 hours ago, auxy said:

So if I decide to bring a bunch of unranked weapons with no mods into a level 50-60 mission, that's fine, right?
Or if I elect to participate in voice chat by shouting in the mic, that's OK too?
After all, "you don't control people's actions, they do what they want to."
And I shouldn't get annoyed with them for doing what they want, right? 

I hope those extreme examples have made you realize the error of your ways. It's a very silly viewpoint.
Obviously, people are responsible for how their actions impact the experiences of others.

Getting annoyed with people for doing inappropriate behavior is fair too. I'm agreeing with it. I'm just at this point, where I don't have any expectations that people will act in a fair manner in a public game. If someone wants to be a jerkwad and scream into public mic, I can politely ask them to stop yelling. Whether they respectfully listen is a different story. At least we can mute voice chat. Yes I agree, people's actions have impact on others. Whether people are responsible enough to realize that is a different story. That's why I try not to have expectations of people. That's why I agreed to the idea that someone told me "anything goes in a public game. If you don't like it, do it solo". And I'll admit, I like doing some things solo, but I also have certain setups in solo that I don't want to bring out to a multiplayer setting. But at least in solo, I can protect those freedoms because I'm not impacting anyone else. That is what I was trying to say.

3 hours ago, auxy said:

There's "controlling another person," and then there's "having reasonable expectations for the behavior of others."
They're not the same thing. Flouting conventional expectations of behavior might be fun, but it's also inconsiderate and self-indulgent.

I have a bias, I'm just not sure what my philosophical bias is because I've changed myself over the years. It's probably fair that maybe I've conflated these two things together. It's hard to draw the line in seeing where that is in Warframe. Sorry about communicating the way I did in my first response.

Back to the main topic about Itzal and K-drives. My bias is, I'd rather not see the itzal being touched/changed in any way. Itzal does what it does well and I would be scared of it getting nerfed. Same with Amesha, please don't touch it because I use it as a support tool for frontline combat in solo play as well. I would be supportive of K-drives getting a buff, any type of buff sure. But I also like that K-drives are sort of their own self-contained activity. I can do them whenever I want to. I just choose to have K-drives as low priority right now and I don't frequent using them at the moment. I'll get back to them whenever I can, but I'll do that on my own time solo.

Edited April 6, 2019 by BlindStalker

[Variks_Prime]

Just now, Hawner said:

So, you want to make high jumps in front of the enemies? Think that will stop them from hitting you? You actually want to make 100-200 meters high jumps with a skateboard? Do you think that is logic? Would that solve the problem of its speed or bypass any of the difficulties I mentioned earlier? no.

 

You know what the problem with all that is? That you fail to see the "Loki paradigm": If you are invisible, you can't be targeted or shot at. That is why Loki is so good at any kind of mission that involves sneaking around or kill an army. As long as he is an option in your own personal rooster of warframes to use on missions, he is going to be, at least, on the top 5 best frames for it.

Since Archwings are all jetpacks, they all share one function, which is transport the warframe around. If all 4 of them are archwings and not one jetpack, one submarine, one space shuttle and one combat craft, they can't be separated that way. They all work the same, they all can work in the same places.

So, your idea does not work unless you leave 1 Archwing, and 1 only; 1 submarine, and 1 only; etc... because that is what you are actually doing, and it will still not help with the problem that one will be better than the others. You are just forcing players to use the rest instead of giving them choices.

Actually I do everything you listed as a problem all the time as an Itzal which if it takes more than half a point of damage will dismount. ...yet I don't get hit. So it DOES completely bypass everything you mentioned. It will work. It will be Itzal in K-Drive form, and K-Drives will finally be used. And no, I'm not using his 2 for any of that. You just zoom up, zoom forward, and by the time something would have reached you, you're not there anymore. Even stuff with crazy aim like tusk ballistas and the vrush turret homing missiles don't catch up. If it works against them, it's going to work against everything else just fine.

 

Archwings are FAR MORE than jetpacks, they are miniframes with a complete set of abilities. If you're going to ignore that, of course you're going to have a very skewed view here.

 

Once K-Drives take over basic movement and archwings actually don't get knocked out of combat when you actually try to do anything BUT Itzal-TP with them, that's when all the archwing diversity - which already exists, waiting to become viable - comes into play. Then I can finally bring Amesha and a decent K-Drive and not feel like I'm walking through molasses.

[Pancoar]

You can make itzal slower than k-drive and I still won't use a k-drive.

[Ikusi_Prime]

14 minutes ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

I never had that issue before I got itzal so I dont see the big deal but whatever let the nerfs come

Changes. Not nerfs. They're nerfing its ability to transport you almost instantly across an open world area, but I have no doubts that they would compensate it with something else. 

[Oreades]

yeah 98% sure they where being sarcastic about nerfing Itzal to bring it in line with K-Drives and even if they do I'll just Nova everywhere. She's faster than the Itzal anyhow. 

[Variks_Prime]

Nerfing Itzal is on the same level as removing Fetch would be. Most of the community wants univac. Most of the community wants to get around free roam fast. Taking it out will just tank free roam's popularity again and K-Drives will remain virtually unused until they're given enough power to be useful - not made the only option in a situation that would become, again, so unfun as to be shunned.

[(NSW)Katsuro]

3 minutes ago, Aejan said:

Changes. Not nerfs. They're nerfing its ability to transport you almost instantly across an open world area, but I have no doubts that they would compensate it with something else. 

knowing DE its obviously a nerf

[FlyingDice]

36 minutes ago, Aejan said:

This has nothing to do with speed. 

It's not that the Iztal is too fast, it's that it is the optimal, "meta" choice. If you don't pick it, you are playing wrong. There is no drawback, no tradeoff to gaining the benefit of the Iztal versus a different Archwing. It has a monopoly on Archwing usage in open world. 

Give it time, and see what they come up with. Odds are that the Iztal is going to get a different fun ability, and the open world is going to get fast travel points that let you quickly travel to different areas. 

The drawback is that it's far and away the squishiest archwing. That just never becomes relevant because nobody engages in archwing combat voluntarily.

[--F--NerevarCM]

Oh God. People are really believing this? Incredible!