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Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

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36 minutes ago, Aejan said:

This has nothing to do with speed. 

It's not that the Iztal is too fast, it's that it is the optimal, "meta" choice. If you don't pick it, you are playing wrong. There is no drawback, no tradeoff to gaining the benefit of the Iztal versus a different Archwing. It has a monopoly on Archwing usage in open world. 

Give it time, and see what they come up with. Odds are that the Iztal is going to get a different fun ability, and the open world is going to get fast travel points that let you quickly travel to different areas. 

The drawback is that it's far and away the squishiest archwing. That just never becomes relevant because nobody engages in archwing combat voluntarily.

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Just now, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Oh God. People are really believing this? Incredible!

You realize Scott was pushing nerfing Itzal pretty hard on the devstream today, right? And it's not April 1st...

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Posted (edited)

Absolutely incredible to see people actually calling it "overpowered" that an archwing gets you from point A to point B faster in a system where absolutely nothing of interest or threat happens between the two points whatsoever. Gosh, maybe the real problem is that open landscapes are terrible and they went out of their way to try to make everything BUT movement worthless by crippling archwing skill ranges AND giving all of the enemies instakill missiles against them???

still, doesn't really hurt me at all, i'm already hopefully done with both of the god-awful landscapes

Edited by OvisCaedo
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1 minute ago, Variks_Prime said:

You realize Scott was pushing nerfing Itzal pretty hard on the devstream today, right? And it's not April 1st...

You realize Scott was joking right? With all the "NERF IT! NERF EVERYTHING! MUAHAHAHA"

Did you really fall for that? Wow....

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Hey, being able to respond the way you do is the right way to get things done. None of us want to lose content that we enjoy, but hopefully we (collectively) can come to a compromise.

 

 

 

Also everyone accidentally enters and maybe finishes a bit early, but theres plenty of time to get your thoughts together and insert that text thats right for everyone to enjoy.

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2 minutes ago, Variks_Prime said:

You realize Scott was pushing nerfing Itzal pretty hard on the devstream today, right? And it's not April 1st...

Jokes or not, you really think nerfing a single archwing is as bad as removing the existence of vacuum mod. A necessity that can be applied to all companions, can be taken literally everywhere, compared to a single variant of equipment that can only be taken and used on certain nodes? tumblr_inline_ownmw9i0WP1sjirux_500.gif

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My friends just told me that Scott is removing Itzal... That is my favorite archwing... I thought they were going to make archwing better, what happened to that? If they remove the best one, how is that making it better? I love that game mode and always thought it was a shame that not many people liked playing those type missions. I was looking forward to railjack as it would give us all an excuse to do more archwing missions, but I guess Ill have to settle for the Odonata Prime... Its not a bad archwing, but it only sits at second best in my book. If they want to remove an archwing they should remove either the Amesha... It is by far the worst archwing in the game... I hate that one, take it instead.... Or even the Elytron... Its not as bad as Amesha, but still... Man, this blows... Who said anything bad about Itzal, and why would they remove it?

So what if its fast... Volt is fast and he's still in the game...

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2 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

You realize Scott was joking right? With all the "NERF IT! NERF EVERYTHING! MUAHAHAHA"

Did you really fall for that? Wow....

That's hardly the tone he used. I've seen Scott joke. We've all seen them say things they'll never do - Steve's Anthem jabs for instance, and then acknowledge it was nothing more.

 

This was actually put forth as something Scott wants to do, aggressively, but that Rebecca and others (rightfully) don't think is a good idea. We need to make clear that, yes, it's a terrible idea.

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1 minute ago, Xico.xide said:

Jokes or not, you really think nerfing a single archwing is as bad as removing the existence of vacuum mod. A necessity that can be applied to all companions, can be taken literally everywhere, compared to a single variant of equipment that can only be taken and used on certain nodes? tumblr_inline_ownmw9i0WP1sjirux_500.gif

Maybe when you try to play free roam more, you'll understand. Ask a hardcore eidolon 5+x3 player about this compared to Fetch. I'm not one, but I understand they see this as even more important.

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hace 1 minuto, Variks_Prime dijo:

Actually I do everything you listed as a problem all the time as an Itzal which if it takes more than half a point of damage will dismount. ...yet I don't get hit. So it DOES completely bypass everything you mentioned. It will work. It will be Itzal in K-Drive form, and K-Drives will finally be used. And no, I'm not using his 2 for any of that. You just zoom up, zoom forward, and by the time something would have reached you, you're not there anymore. Even stuff with crazy aim like tusk ballistas and the vrush turret homing missiles don't catch up. If it works against them, it's going to work against everything else just fine.

4

Yes, when you get hit you dismount... in the middle or in front of the enemies that hit you and have at least 2 seconds of advantage over you and will keep shooting. Either stay on the ground from the beginning or use the K-drive/archwing to flee, not to attack. A 1sec use of K-drive, no matter how good the ability is, is useless if you get dismounted at the first shot.

 

hace 4 minutos, Variks_Prime dijo:

Archwings are FAR MORE than jetpacks, they are miniframes with a complete set of abilities. If you're going to ignore that, of course you're going to have a very skewed view 

2

They are LESS than miniframes, because their abilities don't have an actual theme nor have a synergy like warframes are (except, ironically, Itzal, which actually has). In any case, those abilities are only used in space combat (where warframes skills are useless and need something to defend yourself with) or as a pseudo-support that isn't as good as an actual warframe but that has a couple of advantages on certain situations. So, the actual function of the Archwings is transport from one place to another, and by how it looks (like a big jetpack), then I guess I am correct in calling them that.

by the way, my view is good, that you for your concern. However, I ask you not to make personal attacks unless you want to receive some. I respect your opinion and view even if I don't agree with it, so show me the same respect.

 

hace 8 minutos, Variks_Prime dijo:

Once K-Drives take over basic movement and archwings actually don't get knocked out of combat when you actually try to do anything BUT Itzal-TP with them, that's when all the archwing diversity - which already exists, waiting to become viable - comes into play. Then I can finally bring Amesha and a decent K-Drive and not feel like I'm walking through molasses.

2

When do Archwings get knocked out of combat when you try anything but Blink? They have shields and HP, you know? They can take a punch before you get knocked out of them. However, the K-drive dismounts you if you don't land properly or hit something you shouldn't contrary to what happens with Archwings

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

Tbh even if they nerf Itzal's blink ability, Itzal will still be the fastest archwing since it has a base speed of 1.20 plus with Hyperion Thrusters mod maxed makes it 1.48 flight speed.
In conclusion it doesn't really affects itzal gameplay.

Shhh...keep them occupied with Itzal.  They might actually look at the AW that IS OP.

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1 minute ago, Variks_Prime said:

Maybe when you try to play free roam more, you'll understand. Ask a hardcore eidolon 5+x3 player about this compared to Fetch. I'm not one, but I understand they see this as even more important.

Oh no, whatever shall we do if they nerf the itzal, wait until the next night?

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Posted (edited)

Scotts playing a dangerous game with mentioning nerfing Itzal, just because you guys didn't plan for players being able to mod and scale doesn't mean players should lose a significantly useful piece of gear,  I will be honest here Itzal is a crutch but a useful one otherwise we have sluggish movement from point A to point B.

Edited by Knight_Ex

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AFAIK they didn't say anything about removing it altogether, just that they feel like Blink should be nerfed or removed because it's pretty much the biggest reason you rarely see anyone use Archwings other than Itzal.

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Posted (edited)

Choosing to use a certain thing because it provides a certain benefit is not game breaking, it is called strategy.

Context: In the clip below Scott says that limiting the choice of archwings to Itzal if a player wants to be fast is game breaking and should therefore be removed.

EDIT: embedding the clips doesn't work.

https://www.twitch.tv/warframe/clip/MistyLivelyGoblinWoofer

How is making a choice to get a certain benefit (speed in this case) a game breaking thing?

If I want to deal massive aoe damage, my choice of Warframes is limited.
If I want to put 200k corrosive damage into a grineer face, my choice of weapons is limited.

I don't understand how limitation of choice (even strict limitation) is game breaking.
Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

I can see that strict and repetitive meta would be game breaking but that is solved by providing alternatives and not by nerfing useful equipment.

On a sidenote:
I would hate so see Itzal being nerfed for the supposed goal of making K-Drives more useful.

Spoiler

THEY WON'T. THEY WILL NEVER BE.

K-Drives were one of the worst things of 2018. Much wow at Tennocon but they make no sense whatsoever:

  1. Why do they provide mastery? This is a space ninja game with exploding arrows, not a skateboard simulator. 
  2. Why are the stats not varying? What's even the point? Ah, yes... mastery. Otherwise nobody would care.
  3. Why do Ventkids have 5 ranks? We have enough syndicates already...

I have to wonder why DE invests in gimmicky useless stuff like K-Drives and floofs when there is so much open work to do (bug free host migration, enemy scaling, difficulty, Warframe reworks, etc.).
I actually do not wonder since it's pretty obvious that floofs attract more players than a well rounded difficulty rework would.

Although I wanted to voice my opinion of K-Drives I hope it doesn't distract from the point I am making on Itzal (being that strategic choices do not break the game, in my opinion).
I intentionally did not put this into feedback since I am not providing solutions, alternatives or anything of substance...

Edited by Sagittarix
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4 minutes ago, Hawner said:

Yes, when you get hit you dismount... in the middle or in front of the enemies that hit you and have at least 2 seconds of advantage over you and will keep shooting. Either stay on the ground from the beginning or use the K-drive/archwing to flee, not to attack. A 1sec use of K-drive, no matter how good the ability is, is useless if you get dismounted at the first shot.

 

They are LESS than miniframes, because their abilities don't have an actual theme nor have a synergy like warframes are (except, ironically, Itzal, which actually has). In any case, those abilities are only used in space combat (where warframes skills are useless and need something to defend yourself with) or as a pseudo-support that isn't as good as an actual warframe but that has a couple of advantages on certain situations. So, the actual function of the Archwings is transport from one place to another, and by how it looks (like a big jetpack), then I guess I am correct in calling them that.

by the way, my view is good, that you for your concern. However, I ask you not to make personal attacks unless you want to receive some. I respect your opinion and view even if I don't agree with it, so show me the same respect.

 

When do Archwings get knocked out of combat when you try anything but Blink? They have shields and HP, you know? They can take a punch before you get knocked out of them. However, the K-drive dismounts you if you don't land properly or hit something you shouldn't contrary to what happens with Archwings

WHAT personal attacks? Are you just trying to derail the debate? I'm answering you point for point. If you don't want to debate, you don't have to, but I do have facts and experience to counterpoint what you've proposed so far.

If you think the archwings don't have themes and synergy, I don't know what to tell you. I can use Amesha well enough I managed to get it to work alright for fractures albeit feeling like I was trudging through molasses for it. It's an extremely defensive set comparable to most of Trinity+Frost in one. Used well, Amesha can actually avoid getting knocked down for long enough to accomplish at least SOMETHING but somehow eventually even without abilities dropping the anti air rockets just ignore the bubble anyways. And they ignore shields and hp for all intents and purposes, too - surely you've experienced that? The reason itzal works is because he moves so fast they don't catch up, and K-Drive can be given the same and thus perform the same. Have you used archwings around a vrush turret, or whatever corpus ground unit acts like one in the vallis? You can build full hp/shield and it still won't matter for long if you aren't constantly moving at itzal speeds.

How, exactly, is, say, Trinity's kit more "themed" or has more "synergy" than Amesha's? Can you explain that?

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It's different from frames in the fact that itzal causes things like players joining into public squads and getting immediately kicked because the host was itzaling around and cleared the mission before the loading screen finished.

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3 minutes ago, Sagittarix said:

I actually do not wonder since it's pretty obvious that floofs attract more players than a well rounded difficulty rework would.

That's a huge post to then say this, no?

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17 minutes ago, Xico.xide said:

Oh no, whatever shall we do if they nerf the itzal, wait until the next night?

So you think making eids more dependant on RNG of how far they decide to roam from the shrine regardless of kill time is a good thing, rather than letting Itzal keep it down to a dull roar?

I don't think it's a good thing. I doubt most people would. How many caps do you have? Do you even care about eidolons? Why do you feel the need to mock how people use Itzal for Eidolons? Would you like it if someone treated something similar that you like in the same way?

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Great idea lets nerf the one thing that makes open world traversal bearable because a useless vehicle can't compete. Also here's an idea maybe make it so that kdrives are actually useful and bring something to the table rather than just a gimmick that gets boring after 5 minutes and is painful to level. There's a reason why the majority of the community don't use kdrives.

I'm not too shocked there are people calling for it's nerf as there is always that part of the community that jumps on the nerf bandwagon. Similar to the lets nerf ember because she was good in low level missions, it's not a good idea. 

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Hope he was joking, Itzal gives players one reason to progress, otherwise there's no point in doing Itzal other than MR fodder.

Plus, there's no #*!%ing reason nor logic a damn hover board being as fast as something with rocket boosters.

And don't even start with the meta excuse, get a damn clan or make some friends to play with, if you go public, you SHOULD expect hosts migrations, nukers, speedrunners and such, this is getting ridiculous....

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1 minute ago, FreyaValentine said:

im pretty sure he was joking

what if he didn't what if they want that k-driven challenge done & beyond, Scott did prove himself throw years to be a heavy weight nerfer 

Blink is such useful why not make universal instead :satisfied:

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Posted (edited)

Other than unlocking the challenge I find absolutely no reason to use K drive over even the slowest Archwing Elytron. It's trash tier, function-wise.

Also Itzal Prime when

Edited by Marvelous_A

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