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Xaxma

Why is Natural Talent even a thing?

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On 2019-04-06 at 8:22 PM, Xaxma said:

It's actually a really pointless concept for a mod; the epitome of "bandaid mods" which exist to accommodate for thoughtless design. 

In theory, it would be a good mod if cast times for certain abilities would directly translate into big gains or huge damage, thereby directly translating into damage or gain boosts effectively, but many abilities don't function around this concept. Many frames seem to suffer from long cast times for what is arguably arbitrary reasons, whose abilities don't seem to offer any of this concept's promises.

I would suggest a removal of the mod and then going back and adjusting some of the problem abilities. 

A lot of frames actually benefit of this mod. Why removing a mod just because you don't know how to use it?

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It isn't only used for casting times that are long, though. It's used for any casting time you want to shorten, for any reason, and it shortens it by 33.3%.

I don't see what warframe size has to do with anything. Like, are you just trolling? It seems like you're just trolling.

 

I'm not arguing against casting speed being sped up, I'm arguing against the idea that Natural Talent is somehow a bandaid for "long casting times" because, quite plainly, it isn't. If you want to make a topic about specific frame power casting times that you feel need to be shortened, I would be happy to instead argue that they should or shouldn't be altered for various reasons. But, this topic is about Natural Talent, a mod which increases casting speed by 50%, and is therefore completely unrelated to that topic.

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36 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It isn't only used for casting times that are long, though. It's used for any casting time you want to shorten, for any reason, and it shortens it by 33.3%.

... but is it used for short casting times, though? For sure, it exists, and could be used to speed up already fast casting times, but is it being commonly used for that in practice?

36 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I don't see what warframe size has to do with anything. Like, are you just trolling? It seems like you're just trolling.

Your argument was that Natural Talent existed simply because there was a stat to modify. By that same token, one would have a mod to modify literally everything that can be modified in the game, including warframe size, yet that is clearly not the case. Natural Talent therefore does not exist simply because there's a stat it modifies, it exists as a specific design choice, as can also be seen by some warframes relying on it to cast smoothly.

36 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I'm not arguing against casting speed being sped up, I'm arguing against the idea that Natural Talent is somehow a bandaid for "long casting times" because, quite plainly, it isn't. If you want to make a topic about specific frame power casting times that you feel need to be shortened, I would be happy to instead argue that they should or shouldn't be altered for various reasons. But, this topic is about Natural Talent, a mod which increases casting speed by 50%, and is therefore completely unrelated to that topic.

What are you even talking about? The OP themselves directly mentioned speeding up certain animations while removing Natural Talent. It is therefore not only relevant to the topic, but one of the central points of the topic: the entire point of the OP is that Natural Talent is a band-aid to long casting animations (because, quite plainly, it is a band-aid, and you arguing by assertion does not prove this wrong), and that it should be ripped off with compensation given to particularly long casts. Are you trolling? Because as it stands, you have contributed nothing to the thread, and have instead been attempting to derail it.

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1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Indeed, if warframe casting times didn't exist, a mod affecting them wouldn't make sense. Since they do, a mod affecting them makes perfect sense.

I think, if anything, there should be more long-animation frame powers, just to give more variety. So many warframe powers have nearly inconsequential casting times, and some of those don't necessarily make a lot of sense.

I wouldn't have a problem with long animation times if they were the price behind powerful abilities, since the concept around imposing such a hazard on yourself would be the balancing factor in of itself. 

However, since this type of balance was not behind DE's intention, it doesn't stand as being proper when abilities are long or short on a seemingly random, arbitrary basis.

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3 minutes ago, Xaxma said:

I wouldn't have a problem with long animation times if they were the price behind powerful abilities, since the concept around imposing such a hazard on yourself would be the balancing factor in of itself. 

However, since this type of balance was not behind DE's intention, it doesn't stand as being proper when abilities are long or short on a seemingly random, arbitrary basis.

Maybe you're just underestimating some of the abilities with longer cast times?

27 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

... but is it used for short casting times, though? For sure, it exists, and could be used to speed up already fast casting times, but is it being commonly used for that in practice?

Your argument was that Natural Talent existed simply because there was a stat to modify. By that same token, one would have a mod to modify literally everything that can be modified in the game, including warframe size, yet that is clearly not the case. Natural Talent therefore does not exist simply because there's a stat it modifies, it exists as a specific design choice, as can also be seen by some warframes relying on it to cast smoothly.

What are you even talking about? The OP themselves directly mentioned speeding up certain animations while removing Natural Talent. It is therefore not only relevant to the topic, but one of the central points of the topic: the entire point of the OP is that Natural Talent is a band-aid to long casting animations (because, quite plainly, it is a band-aid, and you arguing by assertion does not prove this wrong), and that it should be ripped off with compensation given to particularly long casts. Are you trolling? Because as it stands, you have contributed nothing to the thread, and have instead been attempting to derail it.

Yes, actually. It's quite common to use it to speed up "spammable" abilities of any variety, and isn't so common to use it on not-so-spammable abilities, even longer ones.

Modifying Warframe size would either have absolutely no practical application, break all of the hit detection and tilesets, or both. Having a mod for dodge speed is great, though I think it's debatable whether the description of dodge speed is accurate. IMO, it should say that it shortens the dodge duration. It's not like Mirage, where the speed is linearly adjusted to compensate, allowing her to cover the same amount of ground in a shorter timeframe.

Natural talent exists because there are casting times, and there can be benefits to speeding them up in some but not all cases, like any other warframe power mod.

Removing natural talent is completely unnecessary to speeding up casting animations, and the idea that the two are somehow inseparable is stupid.

 

I've actually also contributed: that natural talent should affect more frame powers, and that the issue being discussed is not related to natural talent, nor would it's removal have any direct impact on the issue being discussed, as well as that the topic title is misleading, and the presentation of the arugment at hand is actually diverting attention away from an actual possibly legitimate problem that some people may have, and could be addressed more effectively by addressing it directly.

That's actually quite a bit for what honestly seems like a joke topic of some sort.

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Just now, NezuHimeSama said:

Yes, actually. It's quite common to use it to speed up "spammable" abilities of any variety, and isn't so common to use it on not-so-spammable abilities, even longer ones.

Which ones? Who does this?

Just now, NezuHimeSama said:

Modifying Warframe size would either have absolutely no practical application, break all of the hit detection and tilesets, or both. Having a mod for dodge speed is great, though I think it's debatable whether the description of dodge speed is accurate. IMO, it should say that it shortens the dodge duration. It's not like Mirage, where the speed is linearly adjusted to compensate, allowing her to cover the same amount of ground in a shorter timeframe.

Literally nothing you have said here is relevant to the point: the simple point you made was that if there was a stat, there would be a mod for it, and I easily proved you wrong. No judgment of value about the practical application of said mod (and I do think there could be value in drastically reducing warframe size for hitbox purposes) will change this, as the thing to prove was simply that not all stats are directly catered to by mods. Therefore, Natural Talent exists precisely because, as you just accidentally admitted, a designer added it with the belief that it would be useful, not simply because there was some stat to modify. Thus, there is in fact an awareness of the fact that players would be inconvenienced by some cast times enough to use the mod.

Just now, NezuHimeSama said:

Natural talent exists because there are casting times, and there can be benefits to speeding them up in some but not all cases, like any other warframe power mod.

And here you are deliberately ignoring the first points made in this exchange, which is that cast times themselves are an inconvenience, not some fun gameplay effect that one wants to enhance via Natural Talent. As evidenced by this very thread, and the many threads that preceded it, animation locks and casting times in general are not all that popular among players, because they remove control from the player and interact particularly poorly with a casting model in which most abilities are spammable. Thus, while one can technically frame Natural Talent as a mod that provides a benefit, that benefit is itself the removal of an inconvenience that need not exist in the first place.

Just now, NezuHimeSama said:

Removing natural talent is completely unnecessary to speeding up casting animations, and the idea that the two are somehow inseparable is stupid.

You are technically right: one could remove cast times entirely and still leave Natural Talent in the game. The mod would be utterly useless, but removing it would not technically be strictly necessary to the notion of lessening cast times. However, what is stupid here is the nonsensical belief that making cast times drastically less disruptive wouldn't affect the viability or popularity of Natural Talent in any way. Even if you want to frame this purely as a question of benefit, and not one of band-aiding animation locks, speeding up cast animations would lessen Natural Talent's contribution, as it would be removing less of a flat amount of time to those casts post-changes. In an ideal world where casting times are "just right", or don't exist at all, Natural Talent would therefore have no reason to exist, hence why it should be removed then. Moreover, removing the mod provides the added benefit of preventing future would-be designs from expecting this mod to balance out otherwise impractically long cast animations.

Just now, NezuHimeSama said:

I've actually also contributed: that natural talent should affect more frame powers,

Which has no relevance to the thread or what the OP themselves is discussing.

Just now, NezuHimeSama said:

and that the issue being discussed is not related to natural talent,

The literal main topic of discussion on this thread is Natural Talent. It sounds here like you're just intent on having a discussion different from the OP's.

Just now, NezuHimeSama said:

nor would it's removal have any direct impact on the issue being discussed,

This is false, as per the above.

Just now, NezuHimeSama said:

as well as that the topic title is misleading,

Misleading how? The OP itself gives reasons for the removal of Natural Talent.

Just now, NezuHimeSama said:

and the presentation of the arugment at hand is actually diverting attention away from an actual possibly legitimate problem that some people may have, and could be addressed more effectively by addressing it directly.

Are you sure it's the OP that's diverting from a legitimate problem, and not you? Because from where I'm standing, it seems more like you've decided to dig your heels in, defend Natural Talent at all costs, and reshape the entire discussion around it to pretend like it's not contributing to the problem of long cast animations, than the OP and everyone else on this thread somehow having missed the point.

Just now, NezuHimeSama said:

That's actually quite a bit for what honestly seems like a joke topic of some sort.

... but again, you're the one treating this whole thread like a joke, and not listening to anyone else's take on this subject but your own. This may perhaps be why your own perception of your actions on this thread differs so severely from mine, because as it stands not much of what you've been posting has been relevant to the OP or what they're saying. In fact, it doesn't feel like you made any real effort to understand the OP or their point at all, as your very first reply on this thread itself did not address what the OP had said, and instead talked about how Natural Talent has its uses in the current state of the game, which is an absolute platitude that nobody had challenged.

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Again, anything spammable and anyone who wants more casts per second.

Just because you deliberately misinterpret what I wrote to suit your agenda doesn't mean I said something different. It's an important distinction. Unless, of course, you're actually saying all warframe powers should have no casting time at all, and just be infinitely spammable via auto key at a rate of one cast per second, as you're obviously clearly saying, right?

I quite enjoy casting times. They're a balancing mechanic. If you don't agree with the balance, debate the balance, not the existence of the mechanic.

One could also not remove casting times and remove natural talent. One could also shorten various casting times and not remove natural talent. They're unrelated.

"just right" isn't a thing that exists in the first place. You might have an idea of what's just right for you. That doesn't make it just right for everyone. Hence why we have mods.

So is the main topic of discussion the existence of natural talent(which has already been explained quite adequately) or the casting time of various frame powers(which is and unrelated topic)? Pick one. Stick with it.

I've already explained why they're unrelated.

Topic title suggests natural talent is somehow related to warframe base cast speed balancing or exists because DE somehow doesn't know how to not have casting times. It's a pointless discussion with nothing to be gained.

Yes, I am sure, as I have explained how the potentially legitimate problem is unrelated to the existence of natural talent. Repeatedly and very thoroughly in fact. It's like complaining reload speed mods exist because every weapon should reload instantly or some silliness. If you want that game without reloads, that's fine, lots of people do. Some people *@##$ endlessly about it. They don't(or at least, shouldn't) call reload speed mods a bandaid, though, because they aren't. Get to the point rather than blaming unrelated things.

I have listened, and I have explained the problems with the logic in use. Repeatedly, and quite thoroughly. If you want frame power casting times removed, I suggest making a topic "remove warframe casting animations" or "make warframe casting animation speeds uniform", or if you want to specifically target certain powers you find take too long, make a topic along the lines of "shorten the casting speed of X warframe power". In this topic, you can discuss the pros and cons of casting times without obfuscating the discussion by bringing up an unrelated mod, and pretending it's somehow responsible.

 

 

Essentially, this entire topic is like arguing against the existence of reload speed mods because you don't like reloading. The issue is you don't like reloading, not that the mods exist.

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22 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Again, anything spammable and anyone who wants more casts per second.

... but does this happen in practice? Again, when is NT commonly used outside of problem abilities with overly long cast times? Is it so difficult to name even a single example?

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Just because you deliberately misinterpret what I wrote to suit your agenda doesn't mean I said something different. It's an important distinction. Unless, of course, you're actually saying all warframe powers should have no casting time at all, and just be infinitely spammable via auto key at a rate of one cast per second, as you're obviously clearly saying, right?

... I mean, I did in fact advocate for warframe abilities to impose no animation locks, and have minimal casting time, so yes? What exactly did I misinterpret?

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I quite enjoy casting times. They're a balancing mechanic. If you don't agree with the balance, debate the balance, not the existence of the mechanic.

I'm sorry, who said that casting times are a balancing mechanic? How is this used consistently by DE as a balancing tool when you have weak abilities with long casting times, and ultra-powerful abilities that can be used near-instantly? How can you even say this seriously when DE just removed a ton of casting restrictions with strictly no regards or negative consequences for balance? This is a rather poor excuse to yet again try to divert from a discussion on the mechanics of animation locks, which are inherently problematic in a game like Warframe that features fast and fluid movement, emphasizes player freedom and control over their character, and has the player most commonly spam abilities.

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One could also not remove casting times and remove natural talent. One could also shorten various casting times and not remove natural talent. They're unrelated.

... but if one removed NT and didn't adjust casting times, several abilities would receive heavy criticism for having unduly long animations. If one shortened or removed all of these casting animations, Natural Talent would cease to have any purpose. The two are therefore completely related, and I don't think you seem to understand what it even means for two things to relate in this respect, as NT is very obviously related to casting times (because it influences them, and thus also depends on their existence).

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"just right" isn't a thing that exists in the first place. You might have an idea of what's just right for you. That doesn't make it just right for everyone. Hence why we have mods.

... but again, why want animation locks? What concrete reason is there to specifically want to lose control of one's warframe? This is why the whole idea of "just right" doesn't even apply to casting times, because casting times are inherently nothing but an inconvenience to gameplay, and framing the discussion as one of player preferences implies that animation locks are inherently desirable, which is not the case.

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So is the main topic of discussion the existence of natural talent(which has already been explained quite adequately) or the casting time of various frame powers(which is and unrelated topic)? Pick one. Stick with it.

... why pick one? Again, the two are intimately related, as NT is prevalent precisely because it band-aids over the cast times of certain abilities. Once again, you seem to be unsuccessfully trying to reframe the discussion in a manner that suits your own agenda, instead of actually acknowledging the discussion for what it is. If the OP could mention both NT and casting times, why then are you forcing me to choose between just one or the other? What reason is there to even do so?

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I've already explained why they're unrelated.

Where? There is nothing you've said here that hasn't been debunked, and at this stage you've been mostly repeating yourself.

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Topic title suggests natural talent is somehow related to warframe base cast speed balancing or exists because DE somehow doesn't know how to not have casting times. It's a pointless discussion with nothing to be gained.

... but what you're saying is true, though? DE only just decided to remove ground-only casting restrictions from a whole bunch of frames, and did so on the spot. DE therefore does have a practice of adding animation locks simply by default, rather than with a purpose. DE also specifically mentioned Natural Talent as useful for Revenant's abilities on dev streams featuring him, so they clearly do factor it into balance. Why then is mentioning any of this pointless? What isn't there to be gained when the OP is clearly pushing for even more smoothness to casting? It sounds more like this is just a conversation that you personally chose to turn into a hill to die on, because that's apparently a thing people have time for on these forums.

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Yes, I am sure, as I have explained how the potentially legitimate problem is unrelated to the existence of natural talent. Repeatedly and very thoroughly in fact.

Where?

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It's like complaining reload speed mods exist because every weapon should reload instantly or some silliness. If you want that game without reloads, that's fine, lots of people do. Some people *@##$ endlessly about it. They don't(or at least, shouldn't) call reload speed mods a bandaid, though, because they aren't. Get to the point rather than blaming unrelated things.

But this was already debunked, though? Reload speeds aren't casting animations, as they do not impose the same constraints or restrictions, nor are they generally as much of an impediment, which is why reloading doesn't get complained about much, whereas casting times do. When you refuse to acknowledge the counterargument made, and instead choose to repeat your original, debunked point, it makes you come across as having implicitly acknowledged that you've lost the point, but are still trying to peddle it in the hopes that your interlocutor somehow forgot what was said only a few hours ago.

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I have listened, and I have explained the problems with the logic in use. Repeatedly, and quite thoroughly.

But you clearly haven't, though, as your argumentation has not budged since the moment you entered this conversation, and you have in fact conspicuously ignored the counters made to your points, as noted above. You also haven't really been relying on logic so much as your own subjective preferences on casting times, hence why you seem to believe that your personal stated liking for casting animations (which I sincerely doubt) somehow qualifies as any sort of valid counter-argument to the fact that many more people find them inconvenient. The only thing you have done "repeatedly, and quite thoroughly" is repeat your same arguments over and over again, long after they had already been refuted on this same thread.

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If you want frame power casting times removed, I suggest making a topic "remove warframe casting animations" or "make warframe casting animation speeds uniform", or if you want to specifically target certain powers you find take too long, make a topic along the lines of "shorten the casting speed of X warframe power". In this topic, you can discuss the pros and cons of casting times without obfuscating the discussion by bringing up an unrelated mod, and pretending it's somehow responsible.

But once again, the OP themselves discusses reducing casting times. Your attempt at gatekeeping discussion here is therefore not only pointless, but also flat-out wrong. Why can we not discuss casting times in a thread that already discusses them in addition to Natural Talent? Your attempt here to drive me off to some hypothetical other thread on some completely wrong-headed basis comes more as an attempt to try to silence the current discussion than to contribute anything of value, and as it stands you have made far too much of your exchange revolve around yourself.

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Why give a single example when I can give every spammable ability? wide-area damage 4 abilities aren't exactly a new thing. saying "oberon" would discredit mag, frost, excal RJ, equinox, hydroid, limbo, ect

Clearly, though, you want every warframe power to just be instacast so you can auto-spam 4 for infinity DPS. After all, you want to remove casting speed entirely, which means all casting needs to be precisely no more than a single frame long.

If you dont understand the idea of casting times being used to balance frame powers, maybe this discussion is just going over your head.

Several abilities already receive criticism for long animations, and when DE agrees that those animations are too long, they get shortened. NT is unrelated to this.

Frame powers being unhanded, onehanded, twohanded, or fullbody is another balancing mechanic. It's no different from any other mechanic. I like it to be there because variety is the spice of life. I enjoy having to plan when and where I use abilities. It's a part of the game.

The two are unrelated, for starters, as I have repeatedly explained, and two, a topic can only have one main topic. that's what makes it the main topic.

literally this exact topic. Like, I think just a few posts ago even. To reitterate, removing NT on it's own does nothing to frame base cast times, reducing frame cast times does not mean removing NT. Completely independand things. By the way, just fyi, NT applies to every ability with any kind of casting animation, including onehanded abilities.

It's the same because it's something some people don't like and other people do. It's just another game mechanic. Claiming that mods that affect that mechanic are bandaids is the same, regardless of how relevant you believe it is.

My argumentation hasn't budged because I have listened. Listening isn't the same as believing everything you read.

The OP's title is that natural talent shouldn't exist, which misleads the topic body, which is primarily about the relevance or length of casting time. All discussing natural talent does is redirect the discussion from the casting times that are apparently the core of your and OP's problems to the existence of a mod that has no direct impact on them. Again, it's like if people who don't like reloading complained that reload speed mods are a bandaid because they don't like reloading. If you don't like reloading and want to make a case for it's removal, the best way to do that is to open with a topic title about that, a topic body about that, and don't bother mentioning the mods that it's removal would antiquate, since they would obviously be removed if their related mechanic was removed.

Similarly, stamina was removed not because stamina mods were a bandaid, but because stamina no longer suited warframe(according to DE).

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5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Why give a single example when I can give every spammable ability? wide-area damage 4 abilities aren't exactly a new thing. saying "oberon" would discredit mag, frost, excal RJ, equinox, hydroid, limbo, ect

But then if your claim is that NT is commonly used for every spammable ability in the game, you are patently wrong, as it is evident that players do not commonly use the mod for abilities with short cast times, as noted by essentially every build ever listed. As the OP itself mentioned, NT is typically used for certain abilities that take a while to cast, which can certainly include spammable abilities, but not abilities with inherently short cast times, which was the original point you were making.

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Clearly, though, you want every warframe power to just be instacast so you can auto-spam 4 for infinity DPS. After all, you want to remove casting speed entirely, which means all casting needs to be precisely no more than a single frame long.

... where exactly did I ask for infinity DPS? For sure, I'd like it if every ability could be instacast, but that itself does not prevent me from wanting to address the problem of our damage being out of control, as I noted before. Moreover, even with literal instant casting, infinity DPS would hardly be achievable within the current state of the game, as Energy would still eventually factor in, and beyond that most of the current strongest DPS abilities rely little or not at all on cast times (e.g. Saryn's Spores, Mesa's Peacemaker, etc.). Your attempt at fearmongering here itself suggests a deep misunderstanding of the game's actual state: when's the last time you played? 

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

If you dont understand the idea of casting times being used to balance frame powers, maybe this discussion is just going over your head.

Maybe it is, which is why I invite you to explain to me, precisely and concretely, how casting times balance the current game. As it stands, you have given no reasoning, cited no examples, and seem to be in complete ignorance of how the game is designed or was changed recently. I'm not going to simply assume your unfounded claims are true by default when they patently aren't.

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Several abilities already receive criticism for long animations, and when DE agrees that those animations are too long, they get shortened. NT is unrelated to this.

... but not all of them do, as noted by this thread. Where exactly are you getting the impression that the game is in some perfect state where everything has already been solved, when it is in a constant state of change?

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Frame powers being unhanded, onehanded, twohanded, or fullbody is another balancing mechanic. It's no different from any other mechanic. I like it to be there because variety is the spice of life. I enjoy having to plan when and where I use abilities. It's a part of the game.

... says who? Again, you seem to be speaking as if you were a designer at DE, which you visibly aren't. As it stands, DE has frequently made abilities more free to cast, as noted by the most recent updated that removed ground casting restrictions. When this happened, frames did not have their balance meaningfully altered, not even Trinity, who I can confirm benefited significantly from these changes. On what basis then are you arguing that making abilities smoother to cast is a balancing measure, and not simply a question of arbitrary designer choice, as has so often proven to be the case?

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

The two are unrelated, for starters, as I have repeatedly explained, and two, a topic can only have one main topic. that's what makes it the main topic.

... but you're wrong on both counts, and have already been refuted on this point. Why insist on such a silly bunch of claims? Once again, you are reverting back to fiddling on semantics when the topic has clearly been discussing Natural Talent and casting times from the very first post.

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

literally this exact topic. Like, I think just a few posts ago even. To reitterate, removing NT on it's own does nothing to frame base cast times, reducing frame cast times does not mean removing NT. Completely independand things. By the way, just fyi, NT applies to every ability with any kind of casting animation, including onehanded abilities.

Except to that I already posted this:

35 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

... but if one removed NT and didn't adjust casting times, several abilities would receive heavy criticism for having unduly long animations. If one shortened or removed all of these casting animations, Natural Talent would cease to have any purpose. The two are therefore completely related, and I don't think you seem to understand what it even means for two things to relate in this respect, as NT is very obviously related to casting times (because it influences them, and thus also depends on their existence).

So again, why repeat yourself when your point has already been debunked? Why not actually respond to the counterargument?

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It's the same because it's something some people don't like and other people do. It's just another game mechanic. Claiming that mods that affect that mechanic are bandaids is the same, regardless of how relevant you believe it is.

... but as has also been explained, it isn't "just another game mechanic", casting times are particular among other game mechanics in that they're inconvenient, and don't offer any inherent benefit to the player or to gameplay as a whole. Similarly, self-damage on launchers can be said to be "just another game mechanic", but in practice it's a mechanic that is largely decried for being useless and unpleasant, and which also features a band-aid mod of its own (Cautious Shot), with similar parallels for knockdowns/Handspring and staggers/Pain Threshold. This is why there are threads criticizing these. Once again, why would a player ever want longer casting animations? Because the desirability of longer casting animations is essential if specific casting times are a matter of preference.

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

My argumentation hasn't budged because I have listened. Listening isn't the same as believing everything you read.

But, as noted, you patently have not listened, and have instead fallen back to parroting your same arguments even after they had been answered, while also ignoring said answers and pretending they don't exist. Claiming that you have listened when all evidence points to the contrary is not particularly convincing.

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

The OP's title is that natural talent shouldn't exist, which misleads the topic body, which is primarily about the relevance or length of casting time. All discussing natural talent does is redirect the discussion from the casting times that are apparently the core of your and OP's problems to the existence of a mod that has no direct impact on them.

It seems like you may be the one to have fundamentally misunderstood the OP's point, then, because they're stating that NT shouldn't exist because its very existence serves as a band-aid to casting times that would be unacceptably long on their own. Removing NT and adjusting cast times accordingly would therefore pave the way for a game where no ability would be designed with excessively long casting times purely with the intent of being compensated for by NT. Is that so hard a concept to grasp?

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Again, it's like if people who don't like reloading complained that reload speed mods are a bandaid because they don't like reloading. If you don't like reloading and want to make a case for it's removal, the best way to do that is to open with a topic title about that, a topic body about that, and don't bother mentioning the mods that it's removal would antiquate, since they would obviously be removed if their related mechanic was removed.

But this was already addressed several times, though? Reloading does not present the inconveniences and restrictions of cast animations, which is why it doesn't get complained about nearly as much. How can you claim to be listening when you clearly aren't listening to what others say in the slightest?

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Similarly, stamina was removed not because stamina mods were a bandaid, but because stamina no longer suited warframe(according to DE).

... but stamina mods were bandaids, and when stamina was removed they ceased to have a purpose, which is why they got removed as well. Considering how this is a thing that has already happened in the game, then, why oppose a similar change for casting times and NT?

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I specifically listed builds with spammable abilities. It doesn't matter what the default cast time is, if it's spammable, NT is used. Saryn's Miasma isn't exactly slow, but NT was still used for it back when it was spammable. I also wouldn't call the cast time of something like Smite particularly long.

See, now you're getting it. Putting words in peoples' mouths is a bad way to discuss something.

Cast times are an additional cost to using the ability, so that you can't just spam whatever ability whenever you want, and have to put thought into it. It's a mechanic. It works. In some cases, it could be better, but this topic is hardly about specific ability cast times, right? It's about the removal of NT, right? Or the removal of cast times altogether, right? Which is silly.

The game isn't perfect, but completely axing a mechanic because you don't like specific ability casting times is dumb. Like I said, if you have targets that you think should be shorter, why not make a topic suggesting certain warframe powers be altered in some way, rather than trying to push that NT and WF casting time should be removed.

See, it's like you get it but you pretend not to get it. Indeed, WF does update frame powers to fit the current meta. They don't always get to it in a timely manner, but if you think a frame power has been neglected too long, why not specify which frame powers need an update, and in what way, and get some positive, to the point discussion, rather than trying to push that NT and WF casting time should be removed.

Saying "ur rong ur rong" doesn't make it so, and I've already explained my point here.

Like I said, abilities with long casting times are already criticized with NT in place, because NT operates on the base ability duration. If you think certain abilities should be sped up, why not make a topic about that, rather than trying to push that NT and WF casting time should be removed. Just because you say "I debunked this" doesn't mean you did.

If you don't like games with anything "inconvenient", I suggest movies.

Saying "you don't listen" doesn't make it so. If you aren't interested in a discussion, instead of blaming the other party for trying to discuss something, just don't participate.

As I've already explained, casting time is a mechanic, NT isn't a bandaid, and if you have a problem with certain frame powers, you should target those directly rather than doing it in a roundabout way.

Reloading does restrict casting animations and movement, actually, since you can interrupt your reload and have to start over. That said, that's not relevant to the comparison made, as I explained. If you had been listening, you would know this, but you clearly aren't.

Stamina mods weren't bandaids at all. They were mods that altered the values of certain game mechanics that were deliberately employed as part of the game's design. Stamina wasn't removed because "stamina mods are bandaids"(which they weren't), but because stamina, as a mechanic, was no longer conductive to the state of Warframe. If you think casting times are no longer conductive to the state of warframe, why not make a topic about that, and get some positive, to the point discussion?

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4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I specifically listed builds with spammable abilities.

Where?

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It doesn't matter what the default cast time is, if it's spammable, NT is used.

Where?

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Saryn's Miasma isn't exactly slow, but NT was still used for it back when it was spammable. I also wouldn't call the cast time of something like Smite particularly long.

And is NT being used for either? When was it ever used in those cases?

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

See, now you're getting it. Putting words in peoples' mouths is a bad way to discuss something.

Which is precisely why you shouldn't be doing it. Where have I done so for you?

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Cast times are an additional cost to using the ability, so that you can't just spam whatever ability whenever you want, and have to put thought into it.

So then why are you claiming NT is being used on spammable abilities? Does that not eliminate the "thought" put into spamming these abilities?

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It's a mechanic. It works.

Does it really, though? Because as it stands one of the criticisms of Warframe is that its abilities can be spammed pretty thoughtlessly, regardless of cast times.

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

In some cases, it could be better, but this topic is hardly about specific ability cast times, right? It's about the removal of NT, right? Or the removal of cast times altogether, right? Which is silly.

Which is silly... why? Again, you were asked to provide examples of how removing animation locks would break the game: if all you can do instead is prevaricate, that suggests there are not, in fact, any concrete situations in which a lack of cast times would be a real issue.

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

The game isn't perfect, but completely axing a mechanic because you don't like specific ability casting times is dumb.

Didn't you just mention the removal of stamina? Plenty of mechanics have been axed in this game, what makes cast animations so special? It's not even about specific ability casting, either, the point was made early on that casting times inherently inconvenience the player.

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Like I said, if you have targets that you think should be shorter, why not make a topic suggesting certain warframe powers be altered in some way, rather than trying to push that NT and WF casting time should be removed.

But as said already, I personally think all cast times should be shortened or eliminated, which is also why I also support the OP's own suggestion to lower certain cast times (of their own choosing) and remove Natural Talent in the process. Where is the incompatibility here?

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

See, it's like you get it but you pretend not to get it. Indeed, WF does update frame powers to fit the current meta. They don't always get to it in a timely manner, but if you think a frame power has been neglected too long, why not specify which frame powers need an update, and in what way, and get some positive, to the point discussion, rather than trying to push that NT and WF casting time should be removed.

But why not simply push for the removal of NT and WF casting times? I'm sorry if this is not what you personally like, but if you really think there is a case to be made, why not make your own thread arguing about how NT and casting times are necessary and beneficial to the game? As it stands, my issue has never been about individual frame powers, but about casting animations in general, which is also why it makes zero sense for you to try to frame the discussion as one of specific abilities. Why do so, then?

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Saying "ur rong ur rong" doesn't make it so, and I've already explained my point here.

... but as already said, you have been answered already, and have failed to respond adequately. You are effectively guilty of what you are accusing me here, whereas I have in fact answered you pertinently, and can easily refer to prior quotes of mine that debunk arguments you are repeating here. 

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Like I said, abilities with long casting times are already criticized with NT in place, because NT operates on the base ability duration. If you think certain abilities should be sped up, why not make a topic about that, rather than trying to push that NT and WF casting time should be removed. Just because you say "I debunked this" doesn't mean you did.

But I have in fact answered this argument already: the existence of abilities with long casting times even after NT does not prevent the fact that these abilities and NT are both criticized, as the casting time is too long, and NT is a band-aid to this that players would rather not use a slot for. You keep creating these false dichotomies when it makes strictly no sense to separate to intrinsically linked aspects of the game.

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

If you don't like games with anything "inconvenient", I suggest movies.

How does this argument even begin to make sense? Do you honestly believe games are designed to inconvenience players?

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Saying "you don't listen" doesn't make it so. If you aren't interested in a discussion, instead of blaming the other party for trying to discuss something, just don't participate.

You should perhaps take your own advice, then. As it stands, I have quoted both you and myself to prove that you have, in fact, not been listening to anyone else, and have instead resorted to parroting arguments while ignoring the resulting counter-arguments. Thus, not only are you engaging in poor argumentation, you are flat-out trying to lie here, and in so doing convincing exactly no-one. If you are not interested in having any real discussion, just don't participate.

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

As I've already explained, casting time is a mechanic, NT isn't a bandaid, and if you have a problem with certain frame powers, you should target those directly rather than doing it in a roundabout way.

And as I've already explained, casting time is a mechanic marked by needlessly downgrading the player's gameplay, NT is an obvious bandaid to this mechanic, and the problem is systemic to casting times, rather than specific to individual abilities. If you have nothing new to say to this, you may as well admit you've lost the point, and move on.

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Reloading does restrict casting animations and movement, actually, since you can interrupt your reload and have to start over. That said, that's not relevant to the comparison made, as I explained. If you had been listening, you would know this, but you clearly aren't.

And here you contradict yourself within the same sentence: how can reloading restrict casting animations and movement if it can be canceled at any time? Again, this has been said multiple times, so contrarily to your transparent attempts at parroting back my criticisms here, it is you, not me, who are failing to listen adequately. If you really are intent on repeating yourself the whole time, I can easily produce the same reply to you, just don't expect anything new unless you're willing to contribute something of your own for a change.

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Stamina mods weren't bandaids at all. They were mods that altered the values of certain game mechanics that were deliberately employed as part of the game's design.

i.e. bandaids. Spouting a lot of verbiage when describing the mods does not detract from this.

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Stamina wasn't removed because "stamina mods are bandaids"(which they weren't), but because stamina, as a mechanic, was no longer conductive to the state of Warframe.

And stamina mods, which were bandaids to this mechanic, were removed, because they ceased to have a purpose. It seems like you've confused yourself by deliberately attempting to mess up the logical relationship between mods and mechanics. Where exactly has anyone here stated that stamina was removed as a result of stamina mods being band-aids, or that casting times should be reduced or removed as a result of Natural Talent being a band-aid?

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

If you think casting times are no longer conductive to the state of warframe, why not make a topic about that, and get some positive, to the point discussion?

Sure, but why not discuss it here? It is clearly a topic relative to the discussion. If you don't want to discuss it, that's your prerogative, but as it stands you have neither the justification nor the authority to tell people whether or not they are allowed to participate in discussion, and acting like you do is a little embarrassing.

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You keep picking apart my post and making silly replies that ignore my answers. Are you actually interested in a discussion? It's hard to even read the conversation when you break it up like that, and it makes it look like you're deliberately looking to argue rather than actually discuss anything by taking bits and pieces out of context and pretending they exist in isolation.

Also, since you aren't actually addressing my points at all, and instead trying to shift blame, it only further highlights that.  I mean, heck, I even pointed out where you put words in my mouth, used a parallel statement, which you then twisted to mean something else, and then got offended when I further exaggerated it to illustrate that it's rude, and now you're pretending that it never happened. This isn't a good format for discussion, and neither is the format of campaigning to remove a mod because you feel the mechanic it's associated with is antiquated. If you're interested in providing concise and useful feedback, I suggest reevaluating what your problem with the current game is until you can express it clearly, without using scapegoats, and without resorting to outright trolling.

I've already made suggestions for how, and I'm getting sick of repeating myself, so you can take it or leave it.

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45 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

You keep picking apart my post and making silly replies that ignore my answers. Are you actually interested in a discussion? It's hard to even read the conversation when you break it up like that, and it makes it look like you're deliberately looking to argue rather than actually discuss anything by taking bits and pieces out of context and pretending they exist in isolation.

This would make sense if your replies were interconnected, but as it stands you are doing the very same thing as me, except you don't even make the effort of quoting what you are replying to. As it stands, I am indeed interested in having a genuine discussion, which is why I posted in this thread in the first place. You, by contrast, were the first to try to pick an argument with me, as noted by your first reply to my post. As shown by our exchange, whereas I have tried to bring us back on topic to discuss Natural Talent and casting times, you by contrast have made a concerted effort to derail discussion, make it about yourself, and outright try to bar me from discussing the subject matter entirely, by repeatedly telling me to stop posting at all, and go post on some hypothetical identical thread instead. 

Quote

Also, since you aren't actually addressing my points at all, and instead trying to shift blame, it only further highlights that.  I mean, heck, I even pointed out where you put words in my mouth, used a parallel statement, which you then twisted to mean something else, and then got offended when I further exaggerated it to illustrate that it's rude, and now you're pretending that it never happened.

Literally all of this is pure projection, as it has already been pointed out that you are the one refusing to address arguments made here, trying to shift blame (as you are doing here right now), attempting to put words in my mouth, and twisting the meaning of words, as noted by your repeated attempts to finagle on semantics since the very beginning of this exchange. It is ridiculous of you to even attempt to lie in this manner when there is literally the entire record of our conversation on this thread preceding your post. As it stands, your argumentation tactics have been wilfully dishonest since the very beginning, as noted in our first few replies, and it is patently clear you have been trying to avoid productive discussion by any means necessary, as a result of your defensiveness over Natural Talent. It is a weird hill to die on, but even so, you had a chance at making your case rationally, which you refused to do and instead chose to replace with circular arguments, non-sequiturs, gross hyperbole, and outright fabrications.

Quote

This isn't a good format for discussion, and neither is the format of campaigning to remove a mod because you feel the mechanic it's associated with is antiquated. If you're interested in providing concise and useful feedback, I suggest reevaluating what your problem with the current game is until you can express it clearly, without using scapegoats, and without resorting to outright trolling.

I'm sorry, who is scapegoating what? Who is trolling? This is an incredibly weird argument to make, and it almost sounds as if you're treating Natural Talent as if it were some sort of person. I get that hyperbole is common on these forums, but this may be taking it a bit too far. As it stands, no-one is using Natural Talent as a "scapegoat", people have simply pointed out that it is a band-aid to an in-game inconvenience that itself has no real reason to exist. It absolutely valid to campaign to remove a mod because the mechanic it's associated with is antiquated, and the very fact that you somehow consider this unacceptable makes you especially ill-suited to discuss anything at all on this thread, as you are so clearly biased against it from the get-go.

Quote

I've already made suggestions for how, and I'm getting sick of repeating myself, so you can take it or leave it.

Suggestions where? You've suggested to increase cast times, of all things, so you really have completely lost the plot in this thread. It is fine for you to not want to see NT removed, for whichever reason, but the lengths you have gone to warp this discussion and reframe it like some sort of conspiratorial attack upon the very foundations of Warframe are absurd.

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Like I said, if you have targets that you think should be shorter, why not make a topic suggesting certain warframe powers be altered in some way, rather than trying to push that NT and WF casting time should be removed.

example of suggestion

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I absolutely hate that they sometimes add extremely slow base casts that feel like utter garbage just to make natural talent serve a purpose. 

If the ability has to feel like slow clunky trash baseline in order for natural talent to feel like it's worth a mod slot, there's a design problem.

Natural talent should be targeted towards spammable DPS abilities, not used so you can make random abilities not lock you into an obnoxiously long animation in a fast paced game. All abilities should be smooth/fluid baseline. Natural talent should be used to spam fireballs on ember or lighting blasts on Volt, but those abilities are terrible in general compared to weapons and not really worth casting to begin with. So instead of making the kinds of abilities that natural talent should work well with actually worth casting, they throw in really slow animations on random new frames. 

They don't need to remove the mod, but they need to balance/buff the kinds of abilities it should actually be used with and stop adding random abilities with horrendous base casts that feel like trash without the mod.

Also, maybe it's time to add a natural talent 2.0 type mod that does something in addition to adding cast speed. Or add several different versions with different secondary affects, but you can only equip one version at a time (like how you can only use barrel diffusion or amalgam barrel diffusion). 

IE: Natural Talent: +50% casting speed

Natural Talent: Energetic Rush: +50% casting speed. Gain ? energy per second for the next ? seconds upon killing an enemy with an ability.

Natural Talent: Foraging: +50% casting speed. Killing an enemy with an ability has an increased chance of dropping an energy orb (or maybe gain a buff for X seconds after using an ability that increases your chance of getting orbs so it works with CC/buff/debuff focused frames as well).

Natural Talent: Rythm: +50% casting speed. If you cast a different ability within ? seconds of casting another, you gain 25?% power strength for ? seconds, stacking up to ? times.

Natural Talent: Vampiric Touch: +50% casting speed. Killing an enemy with an ability restores X% of your maximum health (or maybe grants a buff restoring X% of your health per second for y seconds so it wouldn't be rapidly healing you to full constantly on an AoE frame). 

I just pulled those examples out of the void so I don't know that they're that great, but basically, make more caster mods for different frames/playstyles that feel like they're more worthy of a slot instead of making people feel like they have to randomly use up a slot for it because you randomly gave that frame horrendous base cast speeds. 

edit: also if you want varied casting speeds to mean something or involve more of a trade, have better base cast speeds all around, but also offer natural talent variants with negative cast speed like:

Natural Talent: Resolute Focus: -50% cast speed. You are immune to crowd control effects while casting and take X% reduced damage while casting and for Y seconds afterwards. 

 

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On 2019-04-06 at 3:22 PM, Xaxma said:

In theory, it would be a good mod if cast times for certain abilities would directly translate into big gains or huge damage, thereby directly translating into damage or gain boosts effectively

So you're saying if a mod doesnt give you more damage its useless? Please...

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5 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

example of suggestion

Sure, but as said already, I personally don't think it's purely a matter of individual casting times, as I think animation locks themselves are an issue with Warframe. As noted by the game's evolution, players tend to not like animation locks as a whole, and tend to appreciate when the game is made smoother to play, with no negative consequences to balance when this applies to casting. Ash did not suddenly become overpowered when his 2 got made smoother to cast for example, nor when his 4 no longer forced him to relinquish control for an extended period of time (quite the opposite, as many felt he actually got nerfed). Where then is there a need for these cast times to persist, or for Natural Talent to persist too for that matter?

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So make a case for what powers you think shouldn't have animations and why, rather than for why a perfectly fine mod affecting a perfectly fine stat across a range of perfectly fine abilities should be removed?

but ofc, you're just trolling, and this thread probably is too.

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9 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

So make a case for what powers you think shouldn't have animations and why, rather than for why a perfectly fine mod affecting a perfectly fine stat across a range of perfectly fine abilities should be removed?

but ofc, you're just trolling, and this thread probably is too.

The only one here trolling is you, as the point has already been made that I'm arguing for all powers, not just any individual power, to have no animation lockout. Just to pick an example I'm familiar with, Energy Vampire, for example, could easily be a one-handed action, but right now it interrupts all actions every time it's cast, which makes playing Trinity pretty choppy if you go for an EV build, or just a normal build where you prioritize shooting the EV target. Considering how she got her ground casting restrictions removed just recently, it's clear that she's not meant to be balanced around clunky casting, so why should she need this lockout? Again, you were asked to justify why we should need animation locks and Natural Talent, and you have conspicuously failed to respond: how can you then accuse others of trolling when it is you who are clearly not contributing to the discussion?

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So you just want to wholesale remove an entire mechanic, reducing game variety, because you don't like waiting?

Sounds a lot like the same thing as wanting to remove reloading. Heck, why don't we remove movement, too. Just make the game automatically warp to enemies. And attacking? who needs it? the game should just make enemies automatically die and then auto-teleport to the end of the mission.

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4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

So you just want to wholesale remove an entire mechanic, reducing game variety, because you don't like waiting?

How would this reduce game variety? What variety is there to self-stuns? At this point it feels like you're desperately just pulling excuses out of a hat to shoot down what's being told to you.

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Sounds a lot like the same thing as wanting to remove reloading. Heck, why don't we remove movement, too. Just make the game automatically warp to enemies. And attacking? who needs it? the game should just make enemies automatically die and then auto-teleport to the end of the mission.

How does one lead to the other? I'm not asking to speed the game up by that much or even to make the game that much easier, I'm simply asking to remove the lockouts induced by casting animations, and therefore casting animations that force lockouts, so that players can play without interrupting or stunning themselves when casting abilities. Once again, you're not making much sense, and your slippery slope argument here doesn't even follow from the initial one. Why defend these casting lockouts so much? Again, what's so important about them? Again, you cannot seriously accuse anyone else of trolling while engaging in these kinds of troll tactics.

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time and duration of the self stun, being none, one, twohanded or fullbody. Bam, variety.

But of course, you knew that.

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1 minute ago, NezuHimeSama said:

time and duration of the self stun, being none, one, twohanded or fullbody. Bam, variety.

But of course, you knew that.

But how is that actual variety? How does that diversify the player's gameplay in any meaningful way? What you are talking about is variance, not variety: just because something can change in value does not mean that change expresses itself as a meaningful diversification of experience.

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If it didn't express it's self in a meaningful way, this topic wouldn't exist, because you wouldn't have anything to complain about.

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