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MirageKnight

Tusk Thumper Feedback

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3 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Except, as an anime, it has no need to consider the gameplay implications of said behavior. I'm also going to hazard a guess that the presentation is done at least marginally more convincingly; thumpers just look plain bad while jumping around.

It's like someone moving them like a chess piece.

I'm arguing against the idea that Thumpers are somehow 'not serious' because they're absurdly agile armored vehicles, not arguing about their gameplay design.

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16 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

I'm arguing against the idea that Thumpers are somehow 'not serious' because they're absurdly agile armored vehicles, not arguing about their gameplay design.

My point was that the gameplay experience factors into how players will react to things the game shows them, meaning an anime has more wiggle room when it comes to selling the audience on outlandish concepts.

That's also why I brought up presentation; Thumpers look ridiculous while jumping around. They don't create any tension or sense of danger by doing it, the way highly-mobile armor should. As a result, they don't come across as serious, even if it is strictly possible to present them that way.

Okay, so maybe Ghost in the Shell pulled that off. Warframe didn't.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

It heavily features "a goofy tank that jumps around like a damn flea" in the original movie, and multiple episodes of the original anime.

...and it arguably looked stupid there as well. So, what was your point again?

You're also comparing apples to oranges just to try and refute an argument. Not going to work.

55 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Except, as an anime, it has no need to consider the gameplay implications of said behavior.

This.

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension.

To quote a line from DMC5, "SAVAGE".

Edited by MirageKnight
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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

...and it arguably looked stupid there as well. So, what was your point again?

You're also comparing apples to oranges just to try and refute an argument. Not going to work.

I'm not 'comparing apples to oranges.' Your argument is that Thumpers are bad because they're fast and agile, therefore they are "goofy" and this makes them bad. This necessarily requires fast and agile AFVs to be goofy. In your first post you say that "something that bulky shouldn't be able to hop around like a flea." 

My point is that this is completely untrue. Serious works often have extremely fast and agile AFVs. The entire genre of mecha anime is filled with impossibly nimble giant robots which despite being massive and bulky, manage to achieve ground speeds and feats of agility far greater than anything the Thumper does. Ghost in the Shell has multiple spidertanks which pull off moves comparable to the Thumper. Yet there are plenty of serious mecha animes and GiTS is pretty serious. My argument is that "fast and agile AFV" is not an inherently goofy concept, especially not in an anime-inspired game like Warframe.

Comparing how a serious anime presents fast and agile AFVs to how an anime-inspired game does it is hardly 'comparing apples and oranges.'

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

My point was that the gameplay experience factors into how players will react to things the game shows them, meaning an anime has more wiggle room when it comes to selling the audience on outlandish concepts.

That's also why I brought up presentation; Thumpers look ridiculous while jumping around. They don't create any tension or sense of danger by doing it, the way highly-mobile armor should. As a result, they don't come across as serious, even if it is strictly possible to present them that way.

Okay, so maybe Ghost in the Shell pulled that off. Warframe didn't.

"The gameplay experience is bad" is an entirely different argument to "their artistic design is not 'serious.'"

Edited by MJ12
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Posted (edited)

@MirageKnight

I understand perfectly well what you're saying. Notice the motions, accelerations and corrective actions taken by this robot dog made by MIT here:

 

Something a bit closer to the thumper:

 

 

Provided I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that this same type of mechanical movement and behavior should be given to the thumper to make it more believable, which I agree with. On a sidenote, I think the sounds made by the first machine would do well to inspire an audio rework of the thumper to have various mechanical sounds to make it sound like an actual complex machine.

Edited by Mach25
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, MJ12 said:

-snip-

What i said in my original post was that leaping around like it does not only looks out of place but it's also annoying and doesn't really fit the idea of a heavily armored walking tank that has stubby legs.

Have I made that clear enough to you?

4 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Comparing how a serious anime presents fast and agile AFVs to how an anime-inspired game does it is hardly 'comparing apples and oranges.

You compared an enemy in a video game to something from an anime. One's interactive, the other isn't.

So yes, you are arguably "comparing apples to oranges."

 

Edited by MirageKnight
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

"The gameplay experience is bad" is an entirely different argument to "their artistic design is not 'serious.'"

Not necessarily, though. The gameplay experience factors directly into how forgiving the player's willing suspension of disbelief is.

If the hopping around had an engaging effect on the gameplay or somehow enhanced the player's perception of Thumpers as a threat, I would be less inclined to complain about it looking ridiculous because it wouldn't feel ridiculous.

1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

Your argument is that Thumpers are bad because they're fast and agile, therefore they are "goofy" and this makes them bad.

No, their argument is that the unimaginative weakpoint and DPS cap design is bad, and the ridiculous hopping behavior makes them worse.

Quote

This necessarily requires fast and agile AFVs to be goofy. In your first post you say that "something that bulky shouldn't be able to hop around like a flea."

They are, and it shouldn't. A game/anime needs to go out of its way make it not goofy and seem plausible.

Quote

My point is that this is completely untrue. Serious works often have extremely fast and agile AFVs. The entire genre of mecha anime is filled with impossibly nimble giant robots which despite being massive and bulky, manage to achieve ground speeds and feats of agility far greater than anything the Thumper does.

This is misleading at best; if a design looks nimble it is easier to believe that it could be nimble regardless of scale. There is nothing about the Thumper's design which makes it look nimble.

There's a pretty big difference when it comes to something like a Gundam, Voltron, or even a Jaeger vs. something like a Thumper.

Quote

Ghost in the Shell has multiple spidertanks which pull off moves comparable to the Thumper. Yet there are plenty of serious mecha animes and GiTS is pretty serious. My argument is that "fast and agile AFV" is not an inherently goofy concept, especially not in an anime-inspired game like Warframe.

It doesn't matter whether a fast/agile AFV is "inherently" goofy or not. It matters whether it comes across as goofy or not. The Thumper comes across as decisively goofy rather than serious.

Can DE remedy this? Maybe. Until they do, though, I consider it a problem.

Quote

Comparing how a serious anime presents fast and agile AFVs to how an anime-inspired game does it is hardly 'comparing apples and oranges.'

When you're failing to address the contexts of the encounters, differences in artistic design, and significant differences in medium, it kind of is.

Edited by DiabolusUrsus
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1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

No, their argument is that the unimaginative weakpoint and DPS cap design is bad, and the ridiculous hopping behavior makes them worse.

Exactly.

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

This is misleading at best; if a design looks nimble it is easier to believe that it could be nimble regardless of scale. There is nothing about the Thumper's design which makes it look nimble.

Agreed.

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Gundam, Voltron, or even a Jaeger

A Tenno of culture I see.

Seriously though, you can see how a Gundam could be capable of being able to leap considerable distances. Thruster nozzles on a backpack, powerful / lean looking legs etc. make that feel plausible.

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I have three problems with them, one of which seems to be universal:

 

1) They're a pain in the butt to find. Maybe make a bounty specifically for them?

 

2) Soloing these is a royal pain in the butt because they constantly maneuver their "face" towards the target. This means the one remaining vent in the back can take 3x as long as the entire rest of the tank to destroy just because they won't stop rotating to face you and you have to hit the weak spot dead on to damage it.

 

3) They shouldn't despawn once night hits. Please stop with despawning enemies. This is incredibly annoying, and I'd honestly change the eidolon fights as well.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-04-08 at 6:23 PM, MirageKnight said:

Seriously though, you can see how a Gundam could be capable of being able to leap considerable distances. Thruster nozzles on a backpack, powerful / lean looking legs etc. make that feel plausible.

Agreed. Ah, the memories. Wing Zero, you're my man. If not you, then Deathscythe Hell. I'm going to listen to the theme again for old time's sake.

Edited by Mach25
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48 minutes ago, Squick said:

They're a pain in the butt to find. Maybe make a bounty specifically for them?

I think there ought to be a decent chance of the regular Thumpers showing up at the bases scattered throughout the Plains - one per base. Perhaps make bounties for the tougher ones?

49 minutes ago, Squick said:

Soloing these is a royal pain in the butt because they constantly maneuver their "face" towards the target. This means the one remaining vent in the back can take 3x as long as the entire rest of the tank to destroy just because they won't stop rotating to face you and you have to hit the weak spot dead on to damage it.

Agreed, that's very irritating. This is aggravated by their fast movement and their ability to leap massive distances, forcing you to chase them down and then try and get behind them again.

49 minutes ago, Squick said:

They shouldn't despawn once night hits. Please stop with despawning enemies. 

They'd certainly make night fights more interesting. Be also fun to see a fight between a Thumper and a Eidelon.

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@[DE]Marcus

Any chance for Korrudo BP drop on Basic Thumper too and maybe a little increase of the drop rate? 😏

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23 minutes ago, M4T2E said:

@[DE]Marcus

Any chance for Korrudo BP drop on Basic Thumper too and maybe a little increase of the drop rate? 😏

yes, please

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DE has always had a bit of a problem making their art match their mechanics. Like with Bursas and Ambulas. They can fire several different projectiles from one single gun on their back. It would make much more sense if they had multiple weapon mounts for each of their attacks. Especially with Ambulas, since its whole fight is about destroying sections. Destroying weapons along with the armor would have been great.

The Thumpers are similar. They look like super tough and heavy, but they act light and agile. It just doesn't match. With those stubby little legs and giant bodies, they should be waddling around like a tortoise, not zooming around like a racecar. And the jump speed is just silly. First, there is not nearly enough warning, so avoiding it is more about luck than skill. Second, it does not evoke any kind of weight or threat. It looks less like a ten ton pile of armor that wants to flatten you, and more like an excited little puppy that wants to play.

Generally, the bigger something is, the slower it needs to move. If it moves too fast, it ruins any sense of weight it might have and makes it seem smaller than it actually is. So when a giant tank is prancing around the battlefield like this, it just ends up being silly. Like putting a ballerina in a sumo costume.

So, slow down their ground speed by quite a bit, slow down the jump animation to give them more hangtime, and add a bit of a charge up to the jump to give player a bit more warning. Then they might actually act like the walking wall of armor that they look like.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Teljaxx said:

Generally, the bigger something is, the slower it needs to move. If it moves too fast, it ruins any sense of weight it might have and makes it seem smaller than it actually is. So when a giant tank is prancing around the battlefield like this, it just ends up being silly. Like putting a ballerina in a sumo costume.

It's worth remembering that big things can be faster than smaller things, because the determining factor regarding speed isn't just weight, it's power to weight ratio. This is why muscle cars are often faster than smaller vehicles, because they have huge, powerful engines.  

 

Building an engine that can move something like the Thumpers at incredible speeds shouldn't be a problem for the Grineer.  The main problem would be structural strength, because it has to support all of that weight landing from a significant height.   But they're obviously capable of this, as well, considering everything else they can build.

Edited by hyzmarca

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, hyzmarca said:

It's worth remembering that big things can be faster than smaller things, because the determining factor regarding speed isn't just weight, it's power to weight ratio. This is why muscle cars are often faster than smaller vehicles, because they have huge, powerful engines.  

 

Building an engine that can move something like the Thumpers at incredible speeds shouldn't be a problem for the Grineer.  The main problem would be structural strength, because it has to support all of that weight landing from a significant height.   But they're obviously capable of this, as well, considering everything else they can build.

True, but I think the thing with the Thumpers is (at least for me) less about whether Grineer could engineer such a thing, and more about the look / feel clash of the thing. I find them to be goofy and not particularly threatening - not that they can't kill me, but that their overall feel is not threatening. They bounce around and shoot you, but lack menace.

They don't necessarily need to be slow (in fact, if they're anti-Tenno ordnance, they'll need to be fast) - but they need to feel massive. It just feels wrong (to me, I can only speak of my own opinion) for them to boing! around like fleas. It makes them silly, and while Warframe has its share of silliness, it feels like a bad match to the particular enemy in this case. 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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9 hours ago, hyzmarca said:

It's worth remembering that big things can be faster than smaller things, because the determining factor regarding speed isn't just weight, it's power to weight ratio. This is why muscle cars are often faster than smaller vehicles, because they have huge, powerful engines.  

 

Building an engine that can move something like the Thumpers at incredible speeds shouldn't be a problem for the Grineer.  The main problem would be structural strength, because it has to support all of that weight landing from a significant height.   But they're obviously capable of this, as well, considering everything else they can build.

Sure, if it has more power, it can move faster. But there is still the issue of acceleration and momentum. A big heavy muscle car may have a higher top speed than a tiny little Japanese street racer, but it also has much more momentum, and moves differently because of it. Or how a gazelle can instantly leap away from danger, but an elephant has to accelerate up to its top speed. They are both still quite fast, but not in the same way.

This is the problem I have with Thumpers. They can start and stop in an instant, like an elephant moving like a gazelle. This is especially apparent with their jumping. It doesn't matter how much upward force their legs can produce, it won't affect how fast they start to come back down. And they fall way too quickly for their size. If they had thrusters on top, then it would be fine. But they accelerate downwards way too fast for it to just be Earth's gravity.

This is what makes them seem so much smaller than they are. Even though big and small things tend to fall at the same rate, it looks like bigger objects fall slower. And yet the Thumpers fall much faster than pretty much anything else in the game. Even our comparatively tiny Warframes fall much slower than they do.

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Posted (edited)

It seems that the devs have made a couple of changes of note to Thumpers. Thanks for dropping by [DE] Marcus 🙂

Quote
  • Increased the Tusk Thumper encounter chances and lowered the encounter cooldown from 180-240s to 90-120s. 
  • Converted the Tusk Thumper’s Health class from ‘Cloned Flesh’ to a more appropriate ‘Hulking Armor’ class.

That's nice and all and certainly a step in the right direction, but it doesn't change their problematic and annoying movement, the fact that damaging the very things that give them their absurd mobility doesn't change said mobility at all, and that they're still arguably irritating to kill.

That being said, some other suggestions mentioned earlier remain to be considered:

  • Add Circuits and Salvage as guaranteed resource drops. It's a big war machine. If those base turrets can leave Circuits behind, Thumpers should too.
  • Allow damage to main body - even if it's just reduced damage. We can hurt the main bodies of substantially bigger enemies with our guns and melee weapons. It's reasonable to expect that we should be able to do the same with Thumpers.
  • Damaging the legs should impair the Thumper's speed and jump height / distance by 25% per leg damaged, Yes, damaging all 4 legs should completely immobilize it, because logic and common sense.
  • Damaging the legs should not affect main body health or kill it. Again, logic and common sense.
  • Reduce movement speed by 50%. Those legs are too stubby to logically permit that kind of movement.
  • Reduce maximum jump height and distance by 50 - 75%. Again, those legs are too stubby to logically permit that kind of movement, and the copious level of armor on the Thumper should logically impose a substantial weight penalty to begin with.
  • Disabling the Thumper's guns should be permanent.

I was also pondering a couple of other suggestions...

Those drones they pop out to call in reinforcements? Allow for a chance of them calling in another Thumper.

When immobilized and de-weaponed and / or near death, give them a chance of spawning a Grineer crewman, representing the Thumper's operator / pilot / driver bailing out of their machine.

Edited by MirageKnight
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Honestly Thumpers have the mobility Raknoids can only dream of but yeah. for balance a Mobile enemy should be easy to damage (not the same as easy to hit) and not be tanky. A trifecta of all 3 makes the thumper an annoying enemy to fight and at least giving it an obvious weakness would make it better. Since its designed like a tank, its only fair that it be able to hit. make the body be affected by the current DR we have now, make the legs take more damage. Another thing to add is making its thumps remove any abilities affecting it (i think mag bubbles affect them) and probably cause the player to ragdoll if they are affected. That way you wont have to worry about the DPS meta clearing through content without making things more tedious. (with DR)

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37 minutes ago, Gawizard said:

Another thing to add is making its thumps remove any abilities affecting it (i think mag bubbles affect them) and probably cause the player to ragdoll if they are affected. That way you wont have to worry about the DPS meta clearing through content without making things more tedious. (with DR)

The thump would need a bit of a cool down - few things are more annoying than spammable knockdowns. Otherwise, nice suggestion 🙂

 

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These things have been mentioned to some degree or another, but I'd like to put my voice out there anyway.  As a person who prefers to play solo when feasible, I find thumper fights to be uncommonly irritating.  I have no problem with there being enemies which are strategically difficult or nearly impossible for single players to handle - I enjoy the challenge of trying to defeat enemies in ways by which they weren't necessarily meant to be defeated - but this enemy isn't really "challenging" as much as annoying and tedious.  The jerky movements and small hitboxes in particular are frustrating.  I would find them understandable if destroying one of the knee hitboxes had an impact on the thumpers in some way (restricting its movement, forcing it to change strategy, etc.), but I just find myself blasting away at the same elusive targets for what seems like a tremendously long time, chipping away at the thing's total health.

 

Having to chase around that last hotbox as it is constantly rotating away from me is irritating too.  It does make sense for it to hide its weak points, but I still feel put-off by this, since destroying the other legs doesn't do anything to help, and there is no strategy one can implement to wrangle in its movements in any meaningful way without implementing very specific abilities (someone mentioned the Zenurik School's blast, I believe).

 

Thumpers have great potential.  I like the idea of them, and I don't mind considering them to be tactically out-of-reach of solo players, but I still feel like there is much to be improved upon to make fighting thumpers interesting and fulfilling for everyone.  For the time being, even with the nice rewards of destroying them, I'm going to leave them alone.  They're just not much fun.

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To be honest, that things I'd like to see changed are:

Improved or slower animations; hitting the legs is just frustrating because the animations are so jerky. Probably due to the IK on the legs combined with latency (though it's not even great for hosts either).

Slightly reduced health; even with my strongest weapons, I almost run out of ammo every time. If I'm not using my best, I do run out of ammo at least once.

Destroying its guns should stun it for a few seconds to let you get behind it and shoot that last leg. It's not really fun to try and circle around to get hits in for 5 minutes because it has incredible turning speed.

Otherwise, it's fine to me.

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In addition to the other changes I've suggested, I had another suggestion - one regarding its deployment.

I was thinking about how this vehicle is normally deployed: More than likely, Thumpers are moved over large distances via large transports, where they are probably offloaded via a loading ramp and simply "walked" out.

What would be interesting is if they could be deployed via a dropship, say a modified Bolkor that has its normal troop compartment replaced by a socket with a grapple designed to accommodate a single Thumper. This Bolkor would swoop in and at a decent altitude, release its underslung Thumper whose landing would then be cushioned by the Thumper's disc. Needless to say, the impact would be sufficient to inflict a damaging radial knockdown on anything too close to the Thumper's point of landing.

Popping out of the ground is certainly interesting; this honestly would be really cool to see and experience.

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What is fun as a developer is not always fun as a player, this seems like there perfect example of that sadly. 😢

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