New Player Experience and the Ayatan weekly

[DragonSnoot]

It's garbage. No seriously, this is the absolute worst part of my experience as a new player. This comes from a combination of several factors:

 

1) The objective is just a timed jumping puzzle that will fail the entire mission if you don't know how to do it

2) You don't know that you're getting a timed jumping puzzle beforehand. Aside from getting spotted in a spy mission, this is your first experience with this sort of mission.

3) The jumping puzzle basically requires you to actually know the route beforehand.

4) The entire area has new materials for you to get, Orokin Cells and Nano Spores, that are required for several blueprints you can already get beforehand.

5) The actual reason for mission failure and losing all your loot is nonsensical.

6) The realization that you can't have fun and explore certain missions until you've essentially already beaten them.

 

Alright, so after I did the Arcane Codice quest with those really annoying Spy missions (I needed to retry the first one and it became absolutely trivial the second time around with knowledge of the layout) I got access to the Ayatan quest ( I had to read about it on the wiki to find out it was a weekly.) When I entered the quest and started poking around, I had no idea about the timed puzzle and started thoroughly exploring, grabbing all the Nano Spores I could get, and ignored the juggernaut since I didn't want to risk losing anything. I got to the start of the puzzle room, passing a room with lasers sweeping around. Now, as Maroo is talking, I'm quickly searching the room and find that all the doors are locked, so when the timer suddenly started, I immediately dashed back into the laser room, thinking that I missed door or hole at the top of the room (why else would there be a laser?) Finding nothing, I run back into the starting room and find one of the doors had only unlocked when Maroo had finished her monologue and failed the timer.

Alright, so I just needed to try again right? With the knowledge of how the puzzle starts, I go back to Maroo to start the mission again. I still poke around a bit, ignore Lotus talking about the juggernaut, but before I even get to the jumping puzzle, I get an Orokin Cell, something I knew I really needed for those Orokin Catalysts blueprints which I equate with unlocking my end game potential. I start the jumping puzzle properly but get a bit lost since I didn't know the path and bullet jumped around, wasting time and failing again. I was even angrier this time because I lost a valuable Orokin Cell and started seriously thinking about the flaws of this mission. When going back to Maroo, I switched to channel 3 since channel 1 was laggy with all the people around. This time, I just blitzed to the puzzle, but it was a different one this time. Before that though, Maroo's dialogue was delayed since I had gotten through so fast that Lotus was finishing up her juggernaut dialogue, which caused this very awkward delay to the start of the puzzle. This time it's a different puzzle which utilized wind turbines. As I try to get through, I end up falling; no big deal right? You just respawn back at... wait why did I hit the ground and start sliding backward? It takes me a moment to realize that unlike literally every other hole in the game, this one has an actual bottom which ferries you back to the very beginning of the puzzle. I fail the timer again and I'm incensed because I encountered new mechanics (wind turbines and puzzle resets) that the game did not prepare me for beforehand despite the game being fairly easy before this point.

Fourth time, I get lag again as I realize that I get booted to the first bazaar channel when I play this mission which compounds onto my frustration. I get the first puzzle room and I figure out the correct path but fail just short of the timer since I took too long about it. Lotus and Maroo's voices are really grating on my nerves at this point. I finally succeed on the fifth attempt. I then walk outside the room, look around, and find an extremely quick shortcut for future visits now that I'm not constrained by a timer. I slog through the rest of the level, no longer having fun finding anything as I realize my entire suspension of disbelief has been shattered by this egregious game mechanic. This wasn't me dying 4 times in a row, this wasn't me failing a story mission and getting all the data erased, this was me failing to grab a statue and subsequently throwing away literally everything else that I considered more valuable than the dumb statue because Endo is not my bottleneck at the point I'm introduced to this. This is probably going to be the absolute lowest point my opinion of the game is ever going to get because this series of events is just SO BAD.

 

Now if I were to redesign this so that it's actually something fun to figure out rather than feeling like a waste of time? Have the start of the puzzle triggered by a pressure plate which you can press again if you fail the timer. Now you have all of the time in the world to figure out a route by yourself without being in a panic and without having to consult an online video. The actual risk/reward then comes from the juggernaut decision you get from Lotus halfway through. Seriously, all I can think of as I'm jumping the through the level, ignoring everything along the way, is "Fake Difficulty", where the difficulty comes not from actually trying to figure out the puzzle, but annoyingly long trek to get to the puzzle which you will then EASILY be able to do every single time after finishing it once.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by DragonSnoot

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Learn how to do it then. Bullet-jumping and parkouring is one of the game's core mechanics. If you can't even get to that sculpture then it's moslty on you.

Besides, this is a free to play looter shooter, these situations are a given. I mean, do you also ask all other games to adapt it to you everytime you meet an obstacle of any sort? All I'm saying is that if you're already so beyond your edge over that I have bad news for you regarding the rest of the game.

It's a good game, and you can find people to help you with mostly anything, but if you progress with the wrong expectations it's only going to get worse from now on. Godspeed anyway.

[Leyvonne]

I have arthritis so I'm not great when it comes to precise movement or well timed jumps. I solved the jumping puzzle issue by simply not doing them. Every resource you get from the weekly can be found in other missions, even the Ayatan thingies can randomly show up. And there is always the option to build Titania and just cheese the weekly by flying through the puzzles.

[ZeroBladeTV]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

Learn how to do it then. Bullet-jumping and parkouring is one of the game's core mechanics. If you can't even get to that sculpture then it's moslty on you.

Besides, this is a free to play looter shooter, these situations are a given. I mean, do you also ask all other games to adapt it to you everytime you meet an obstacle of any sort? All I'm saying is that if you're already so beyond your edge over that I have bad news for you regarding the rest of the game.

It's a good game, and you can find people to help you with mostly anything, but if you progress with the wrong expectations it's only going to get worse from now on. Godspeed anyway.

He didn't mean he wants the game to adapt for him failing. He meant, as many others, the game is awfully horrible for new players in explaining anything.

And I agree. I've spent more time on the wiki and youtube, reading and watching tutorials, rather than playing the game. This is what is so infuriating. This is the problem. No tutorials, no explanations - it's just a trial and error learning experience, one that makes you bash your head on the wall a thousand times before you find the way to do it.

What is even worse is, that new players feel like there is a huge power gap between them and old players, and a lot of things feel impossible. What old players feel is literally no difficulty, since knowing all the mechanics makes the game a breeze.

And I'm sorry to have to tell you this OP, but it won't get better. It will only get much worse. The game is literally just a grind. One that you need to repeat a thousand times, doing the same thing over and over to achieve what you want. There is no point in admiring the levels and design, and taking it slow. The faster you get through a level, the more times you can repeat it in a shorter amount of time, the more rewards you get. That's why literally all older players shoot through the levels and don't stop for anything. Since they will have to do it 100 more times at the least, there's no time to waste.

If you are like me, someone who enjoys a story and the way it is told by a game, you will be very disappointed. The actual quests are too few and too sparse and too far between to construct any meaningful story. They feel more like snippets of information, to hint there is an actual story behind all this. And if you try to follow them, like in any other game, to slowly get you in the rhythm of the game, to teach you to play it, you're gonna have a very bad time.

The best advice I can give you is: Don't follow the quests, don't try to overcome difficulties you face right now. Just clear the star chart and all planets. Once you face those difficulties in regular mission, where you're not booted from the level every time the timer ends, you learn the route and the mission becomes one of the easiest things in the game.

Sadly, in it's current state, it's just "Grind - The Game". Not to even speak of all the game breaking bugs and glitches you've still to encounter...

Edited April 7, 2019 by z3roblade

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

8 minutes ago, z3roblade said:

He didn't mean he wants the game to adapt for him failing. He meant, as many others, the game is awfully horrible for new players in explaining anything.

And I agree. I've spent more time on the wiki and youtube, reading and watching tutorials, rather than playing the game. This is what is so infuriating. This is the problem. No tutorials, no explanations - it's just a trial and error learning experience, one that makes you bash your head on the wall a thousand times before you find the way to do it.

What is even worse is, that new players feel like there is a huge power gap between them and old players, and a lot of things feel impossible. What old players feel is literally no difficulty, since knowing all the mechanics makes the game a breeze.

And I'm sorry to have to tell you this OP, but it won't get better. It will only get much worse. The game is literally just a grind. One that you need to repeat a thousand times, doing the same thing over and over to achieve what you want. There is no point in admiring the levels and design, and taking it slow. The faster you get through a level, the more times you can repeat it in a shorter amount of time, the more rewards you get. That's why literally all older players shoot through the levels and don't stop for anything. Since they will have to do it 100 more times at the least, there's no time to waste.

If you are like me, someone who enjoys a story and the way it is told by a game, you will be very disappointed. The actual quests are too few and too sparse and too far between to construct any meaningful story. They feel more like snippets of information, to hint there is an actual story behind all this.

Sadly, in it's current state, it's just "Grind - The Game". Not to even speak of all the game breaking bugs and glitches you've still to encounter..

I didn't say he was wrong either. One of the top priorities is to make the new player experience easier and more welcoming, and I agree.

All I said is that stuff such as bullet jump is essential, and that he's complaining about a non-problem. Because once he overcomes this and can swiftly parkour trough the game he'll thank the game for this obstacle. Because those sculptures are among the easiest things in the game. And believe me, I've had way worse trouble as a new player when I returned to the game 2.5 years ago, never complained and learned stuff, and I'm a better player for it today.

Now imagine wanting to go to beat Valkyr's specter on Jupiter's junction with a starter Loki, failing weeks on a row. Imagine wanting to get a Rhino to survive Valkyr, getting all his parts from Venus, but not being able to build him because the neural sensors are, that's right, on Jupiter. Everyone should just be thankful a sculpture is considered an issue at all nowadays, and  even knowing that the game is still looking to improve the new user experience.

Edited April 7, 2019 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[ZeroBladeTV]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

I didn't say he was wrong either. One of the top priorities is to make the new player experience easier and more welcoming, and I agree.

All I said is that stuff such as bullet jump is essential, and that he's complaining about a non-problem. Because once he overcomes this and can swiftly parkour trough the game he'll thank the game for this obstacle. Because those sculptures are among the easiest things in the game. And believe me, I've had way worse trouble as a new player when I returned to the game 2.5 years ago, never complained and learned stuff, and I'm a better player for it today.

Now imagine wanting to go to beat Valkyr's specter on Jupiter's junction with a starter Loki, failing weeks on a row. Imagine wanting to get a Rhino to survive Valkyr, getting all his parts from Venus, but not being able to build him because the neural sensors are, that's right, on Jupiter. Everyone should just be thankful a sculpture is considered an issue at all nowadays, and  even knowing that the game is still looking to improve the new user experience.

Yes, but there is no explanation or tutorial about it. You have to learn the game mechanics outside the game. That is just terrible game design.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 minute ago, z3roblade said:

Yes, but there is no explanation or tutorial about it. You have to learn the game mechanics outside the game. That is just terrible game design.

Yes indeed, and they are working on it thankfully. If you notice the new abilities UI is already one of the first steps in that direction, but it is a slow process since there's 6 years worth of information to explain and put in simple terms, when the game is actually quite deep.

A challenge, yes, but one I'm faithful that will be overcome.

[ZeroBladeTV]

I cannot comment on new and old since I am a fairly new player myself, just above 200 hours in, however what I can comment on is the disappointment I got from finding out the game is 6 years old and there is still game breaking bugs in it, which have been there for years. Through all my searching for information and answers, I understood that DE is more interested in releasing what they can sell right now, rather than fixing what they are selling (and selling it in a proper working state).

I have no idea what the game itself has gone through for 6 years, I was captivated by the art and game mechanics of it, but repulsed by the lack of any thorough tutorial and explanation and the multitude of game breaking bugs.

I guess I can forget the infuriating frustration I went through as a new player learning the game, but I definitely cannot get through the bugs. I mean literally. Can't get past a door to finish the mission. Can't do anything or pickup anything after using an exalted weapon skill. Cannot play an hour without a thousand host migrations.. And these problems have been in the game for multiple years and still are not fixed.

This is what the biggest problem of the game is right now. No wonder there's single digit squads playing different missions. How can they play if the game is unplayable.

You cannot sell a beautiful facade if the interior is rotten.

[DragonSnoot]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

Learn how to do it then. Bullet-jumping and parkouring is one of the game's core mechanics. If you can't even get to that sculpture then it's moslty on you.

Besides, this is a free to play looter shooter, these situations are a given. I mean, do you also ask all other games to adapt it to you everytime you meet an obstacle of any sort? All I'm saying is that if you're already so beyond your edge over that I have bad news for you regarding the rest of the game.

It's a good game, and you can find people to help you with mostly anything, but if you progress with the wrong expectations it's only going to get worse from now on. Godspeed anyway.

5

You didn't read the entirety of my post then. The actual difficulty of the segment was not the core problem. The problem was being introduced to a wide variety of new materials while at the same time, making the mission itself almost unwinnable on a first playthrough. From what I understand this basically reinforces the meta of speeding through a level and ignoring everything, quickly teaching new players not to have fun exploring and picking up materials. 

The thing is, the prerequisite Spy missions were easy to mess up too, but by then,  you already knew the risks of spy missions, and all resources on that mission were materials that you've already picked up. The Ayatan weekly has no previous indicator that it's suddenly going to turn into a timed mission and if you do quests as soon as you're able to, a lot of new materials are found there. As a new player, I thought the risk-reward segment was the optional juggernaut that Lotus was talking about, so I believed I was in the clear after ignoring that.

I have no qualms about doing parkour and learning an obstacle course. The Ayatan weekly quest, however, has this really boring slog before you even get to attempt the course. 

 

Finally, this experience just stuck out like a sore thumb. I'd already completed the vastly overtuned-for-beginners Fortuna starter quests, the most difficult of which (the extraction one) took place at the very start of the level so if you failed, you could retry quickly. This is the only quest that made me actually angry at the mechanics of the game rather than make me frustrated at whatever I'm lacking at the moment (skill, gear, etc...)

Edited April 7, 2019 by DragonSnoot

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 hour ago, DragonSnoot said:

You didn't read the entirety of my post then. The actual difficulty of the segment was not the core problem. The problem was being introduced to a wide variety of new materials while at the same time, making the mission itself almost unwinnable on a first playthrough. From what I understand this basically reinforces the meta of speeding through a level and ignoring everything, quickly teaching new players not to have fun exploring and picking up materials. 

The thing is, the prerequisite Spy missions were easy to mess up too, but by then,  you already knew the risks of spy missions, and all resources on that mission were materials that you've already picked up. The Ayatan weekly has no previous indicator that it's suddenly going to turn into a timed mission and if you do quests as soon as you're able to, a lot of new materials are found there. As a new player, I thought the risk-reward segment was the optional juggernaut that Lotus was talking about, so I believed I was in the clear after ignoring that.

I have no qualms about doing parkour and learning an obstacle course. The Ayatan weekly quest, however, has this really boring slog before you even get to attempt the course. 

 

Finally, this experience just stuck out like a sore thumb. I'd already completed the vastly overtuned-for-beginners Fortuna starter quests, the most difficult of which (the extraction one) took place at the very start of the level so if you failed, you could retry quickly. This is the only quest that made me actually angry at the mechanics of the game rather than make me frustrated at whatever I'm lacking at the moment (skill, gear, etc...)

I did read. The core problem was you getting frustrated at core characteristics of the game, and even if DE does improve that new player experience it'll still be a fast paced looter shooter. And not every game is for everyone. Trying to bend the game itself, specially out of frustration, is never the way. Even because for every person that doesn't like x, another does like it. I do like that mission, and you don't have to do it, so why bother? And you just don't have a timer indication on one single instance, the first time actually trying one. But can you claim that the timer was a surprise on your second try? Or that the mission locked for the entire week after failing once? Surely you see where I'm getting at. Failing means an opportunity to improve.

And for new and old players the answer is the same: "If it's too much to bear and not joyful then moving on or adapting is best".

[(NSW)bobatrons]

I've tried to do this weekly challenge about 10 times and I don't even come close. At least 3 times, the doors I needed to pass wouldn't open. No, I'm not talking about the pressure plate doors...I literally mean doors with green lights on them not opening OR my mini-map marker guiding me to a room that is literally a dead end...and yet...I still (somehow?) need to proceed through a wall to progress.

On the times that I made it to the timed room, I still failed. I've only been successful getting to the room where you have to hit the switch to make the bridge extend, but I never get there in time and always run out before the timer.

I'm (clearly) not good at this game.

[bigBiermonster]

I know your pain, but this is part of learning a new video game, you fail, once, twice, 5 times, but you learn.
There are not many puzzles. 4 i think?

I have just two words for you (two words every new player should learn to avoid all this pain)

YouTube tutorials

[supernils]

1 hour ago, bigBiermonster said:

I know your pain, but this is part of learning a new video game, you fail, once, twice, 5 times, but you learn.

No it's not. Learning the rest of the game isn't frustrating.

As said, this part is just bad game design. It's just memorize. It goes from frustrating to mindless.

 

On 2019-04-07 at 10:11 AM, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Learn how to do it then. Bullet-jumping and parkouring is one of the game's core mechanics. If you can't even get to that sculpture then it's moslty on you. 

Aaaaaand the obligatory "you're just bad" forum troll.

[bigBiermonster]

1 hour ago, supernils said:

No it's not. Learning the rest of the game isn't frustrating.

As said, this part is just bad game design. It's just memorize. It goes from frustrating to mindless.

  

Aaaaaand the obligatory "you're just bad" forum troll.

I never said you're bad, I had rough time with those challanges as well, but I went to youtube, saw how it's done, then went back, gave it a few tries, and realized that once you understand what to do, it's actually pretty easy.

Have you done Spy missions yet? they are basically the same thing, there are around a dozen different challenges you need to learn, yes, it takes effort, it's called a learning curve, and games have those.

[supernils]

Just now, bigBiermonster said:

but I went to youtube, saw how it's done

well that's certainly an alternative way of not getting a fun experience - using guides instead of your brain 😉 

Spy missions I think are better designed in that regard. I know people are still disliking them for certain reasons (possibility of failing, overall length). But there you don't have the time restraint for one. Also, and this is big, you can still complete the mission if you at least get 2 of the 3 (I think there are also those where one is enough). So it's not all or nothing. You get bonus for excelling.

I didn't really think about an answer. Maybe separate the normal loot at the end from the statue. If you can't do it in time, but still complete the course at least let the player have some normal loot. And for god sake, don't make the mission fail so they lose everything they have looted in the mission. Make it still completable, even without the statue.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

9 hours ago, supernils said:

Aaaaaand the obligatory "you're just bad" forum troll.

Just like the obligatory Ad-hominem because you can't handle the truth. Your words, not mine. You called yourself a loser. I just said that you could learn and improve since this is such a core part of the game and that it's very unlikely that it'll adapt to your needs. It's actually the opposite.

[Autongnosis]

The ayatan puzzles are not explained because they assume you have done them while running the Void tilesets at some point. 

The problem is nowadays almost nobody gets to the void and encounters the puzzle rooms, because void keys aren't a thing anymore. 

My advoce would be to run a few Void and Derelict missions without going through Maroo so you can calmly go about exploring the puzzles, since those missions don't fail if you don't finish the puzzle. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by Autongnosis

[Ham_Grenabe]

It is a Zero-Instruction moment, like a lot of Warframe. 

If it makes you feel any better I’ve got thousands of hours in game and I still usually fail the Maroo missions. There’s one puzzle room in particular I have never been able to clear, and it is the weekly Ayatan room that shows up most for me. 

[supernils]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Just like the obligatory Ad-hominem because you can't handle the truth. Your words, not mine. You called yourself a loser. I just said that you could learn and improve since this is such a core part of the game and that it's very unlikely that it'll adapt to your needs. It's actually the opposite.

Dude, I actually love challenge, I embrace the possibility of failing. This is why I wouldn't use guides unless I'm stuck.

Like the given example of spy missions - I think they're pretty cool, even though in the beginning there is a moderate chance of failing, maybe even the mission.

But with Ayatan Treasure hunt there is a *guaranteed* chance of failing until you learned which path to take. *That* and only that is the problem. You know before starting it that you'll run through the mission, fail, and more or less wasted your time. You had *no chance*.

That's the problem. Can everyone agree on that?

[Cuchullin]

A relatively cheap and easy way of doing the weekly ayatan missions is to use Titania's 4th ability to learn the route fairly easily but I can understand how people would prefer keeping more grounded.

[Ham_Grenabe]

Today I learned - at mastery rank 22 - that if you fail the mission, you can retry it until you succeed.

Will wonders never cease. 

[Reegatia]

I'm a new player. I just did the weekly mission for the first time.

So i fight my way through the level and after a while reached the entrance room for the puzzle. I see a door open and behind it a S#&$ton of enemies, I find cover and start shooting.

Then the door closes. And it does not open again. 

I'm like "wtf am i supposed to do?" Jumping arround like a madman looking for a secret entrance. Nope. Nothing. ALT+Tab to check the forums.

Apparently there was a pressure plate that opened the door. Ok i get that. But why won't it open again? I didn't even reach the puzzle. No timer started. I didn't even notice the pressure plate. Absolutely no indication that i'm supposed to rush through the door or the mission will fail.

 

That's got to be one of the worst Level Design i ever encountered. Just let me open the #*!%ing door again.

 

[Sabremouse]

1 hour ago, Reegatia said:

Apparently there was a pressure plate that opened the door. Ok i get that. But why won't it open again? I didn't even reach the puzzle. No timer started. I didn't even notice the pressure plate. Absolutely no indication that i'm supposed to rush through the door or the mission will fail.

Yeah it's a one chance only kind of thing. The fast tempo drumming that kicks in when you step on the pad is your cue that the time pressure is on. I failed it plenty early on including getting just short of the door closing for that extra touch of salt. But it did make me improve my parkour. Not that you'd always notice, tripping over my own feet into a laser pit for maroo was fun times and still is occasionally.

[TaylorsContraction]

On 2019-04-26 at 5:50 PM, (NSW)bobatrons said:

I've tried to do this weekly challenge about 10 times and I don't even come close. At least 3 times, the doors I needed to pass wouldn't open. No, I'm not talking about the pressure plate doors...I literally mean doors with green lights on them not opening OR my mini-map marker guiding me to a room that is literally a dead end...and yet...I still (somehow?) need to proceed through a wall to progress.

On the times that I made it to the timed room, I still failed. I've only been successful getting to the room where you have to hit the switch to make the bridge extend, but I never get there in time and always run out before the timer.

I'm (clearly) not good at this game.

there is another mechanic you may nor be familiar with,  exploding barrels to open otherwise blocked paths.

not all doors open on the derelict tileset. look around for red exploding barrels that will open the row needed to reach extraction.  just an fyi that you may or may not be aware of.

[Chaemyerelis]

I failed this the first couple of weeks i played this game once the mission opened up for me. It sucks but eventually you'll get it and get it consistently. 

Also before you know it you'll have those materials you saw in there in droves.