Revamp Archwing flight or improve K-Drives, not nerf Itzal

[Inumayobaka]

The answer to K-Drive not being used as much as Itzal to traverse is not nerfing Itzal's Blink.
Itzal is used a lot simply because it is a productive mode of transport.

Whereas, K-Drives is a fun mode of transportation.
When we are doing Bounties or other random stuff at Plains/Vallis, we would definitely chill, take our time and be using our K-Drives to move around.

But, when we are doing our 3/4/5/6x3 Tridolon hunts, time is crucial and it requires that we use Itzal and Blink to move around as quickly as possible.

You introduced Itzal the way it is now and did no change all this while.
You introduce a new fun method of transportation (K-Drive) and just because players do not use that when they need to be productive, you think of changing our productive mode of transportation?
That's just silly.

Improve K-Drives instead to make them a productive mod of transportation and you will definitely see any and every Tenno opting to use K-Drives over Itzal.

Also, Archwing themselves already have serious flight issues that have been looked at poorly in the past.
There needs to be a serious revamp for Archwing's flight. Either make it like a space simulator or something like Anthem's Javelin, I don't know.
What I do know is that the current flight is ridiculous to control.

This applies to both the current Archwing flight and the 'Experimental Flight' option that you added.
BOTH OF THEM ARE BAD.
The only good thing I can say about Archwing is that they allow us to go somewhere in a straight line very quickly.
Itzal just does it better than all other Archwings thanks to Blink.

What we desperately need is what you did with Parkour.
You stopped our old "coptering" and overhauled Warframe mobility, introducing Parkour.
Bullet Jumping, Aim-Gliding, Wall Latching, etc. All of them are great. They were well received by us and "coptering" is a forgotten fond memory of the past now.
It was a new and greatly improved movement for us to experience.

Do the same for Archwing's flight.
It is what it desperately needs.
It is also what it needs if you want Railjack to succeed.

Railjack will not be enjoyable if you give it to us without changing Archwing flight.
Nerfing Itzal's Blink is not going to make us use K-Drives. (We still have Hyperion Thrusters)

Revamp Archwing flight and introduce Flight 2.0/3.0.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Inumayobaka
what you did* with Parkour (missed out the word 'did')

[Kyronz]

dE not play the game we do, they will nerf....they just in it for the paycheck atm, they no longer care

[SDGDen]

i personally preffer experimental flight over the standard one, but yeah. archwing needs a flight makeover.

 

first of all, i'd say archwing control settings should be completely seperated from regular settings. its practically impossible to place the current roll controls anywhere usefull without having keys that do nothing when out of archwing (i have them bound to z and c). not to mention roll should work regardless of mode. currently it only works when not sprinting/boosting. it'd also be nice if there was the ability to snap to gravity by pressing both roll keys at the same time if the tileset has gravity (AKA anything with skywing). furthermore the ability to break your archwing would be greatly appreciated. the dodge mechanic should actually help shake off guided projectiles (AKA the projectiles in the plains that knock you out of your archwing).

as for kdrives. idk how they would be made more usefull. 

 

im pretty sure they'll revamp archwing for railjack. so i hope they'll take some of this stuff into account. 

[SDGDen]

10 minutes ago, Kyronz said:

dE not play the game we do, they will nerf....they just in it for the paycheck atm, they no longer care

thats a blatant lie. just because a developer has mentioned nerfing something you like (or has done so in the past) doesnt mean they just care about the money. its been stated millions of times before, a large part of DE does indeed play the game, playtesting is one of the most important things in game development and you simply cannot make a good game without it. not to mention, arent they currently looking into revamping/removing one of the most lucrative new-player plat-sinks (mod packs)? didnt they do something similar in the past (kubrow appearance randomizing)? yeah. they're totally just in it for the money. 

[Firetempest]

Archwing will be changed for railjack. They made that pretty clear in dev streams and twitter.

But If K-drives had utilitarian mods or abilities not found elsewhere, they will be used. Maybe not all the time. But they would have a role to play in the grind and fight mechanics. But as it stands, its really "just for fun".

Some of the top of my head:

On dismount, activates a bubble shield with hp equal to how many points your have accumulated in the past x secs multiplied by something else.

On dismount after jump, board is kicked to ground like a spear and creates (element) shockwave.

Loot/enemy/ore radar increase

Fishing from k-board unlock mod

Secondary/melee usage unlock mod

Increase collision sensitivity to crouch boost faster

Archwing speed boost for x seconds when dismounting from k-drive after a boost pad jump.

Increase speed for K-drive for x seconds when dismounting from archwing boost.

 

[SECURATYYY]

Let us do drive-bys on k-drives.

 

Bonus points if we can use them in missions.

[SordidDreams]

4 hours ago, Inumayobaka said:

What we desperately need is what you with Parkour.
You stopped our old "coptering" and overhauled Warframe mobility, introducing Parkour.
Bullet Jumping, Aim-Gliding, Wall Latching, etc. All of them are great. They were well received by us and "coptering" is a forgotten fond memory of the past now.
It was a new and greatly improved movement for us to experience. 

Agreed 100%. Players being locked into selecting one particular piece of gear because of its utility is a valid concern, however the solution is not to remove the utility, it's the opposite, make it available more widely. That's a lesson DE has learned repeatedly, coptering/parkour, vacuum... Sadly they have a track record of forgetting lessons and having to relearn them all over. I hope it won't happen with archwings.

[Frozer80]

1 thing i would like to see on 3rd orb mother fight is to use K-drive on it .. maybe like use somekind of wire and grapple to bring it down like on star wars empire strikes back they put down that imperial walker

[Goodwill]

9 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Agreed 100%. Players being locked into selecting one particular piece of gear because of its utility is a valid concern, however the solution is not to remove the utility, it's the opposite, make it available more widely. That's a lesson DE has learned repeatedly, coptering/parkour, vacuum... Sadly they have a track record of forgetting lessons and having to relearn them all over. I hope it won't happen with archwings.

Problem with Itzal is that it completely breaks the distance scaling of the game forcing DE to create large environments just to accommodate. More so if they buff other archwings to Itzal's effectiveness. By scaling back an arbitrary value of motion speed, they can save a lot of time and money and allocate resources into making stages better, not larger. Itzal was perfectly fine in space missions where there is considerably less data. Also space missions were completely independent system than other missions but now that they overlap, there needs to be consistency. Unfortunately, the most effective and efficient method to do so is nerfing Itzal. Buffing other archwings would be counter-productive.

[Ishinae]

To reiterate... please don't nerf the itzal, make other things better. Especially k-drives. Parkour can just be faster than k-drives, and we don't want that nerfed.

 

"Problem with Itzal is that it completely breaks the distance scaling of the game forcing DE to create large environments just to accommodate. " 

Why would itzal force them to make large environments? If you make smaller environments we're less likely to use it... we use itzal BECAUSE there are large environments, not the other way around.

[nslay]

Just make Gas City's atmosphere increasingly poisonous the higher you fly. More people will start to use k-drives there.

[Vox_Preliator]

Do both.

Making other things better won't get people to use them, because people are narrow-minded and don't care about that.  Itzal is so far above all other options for the sole way people use vehicles that nothing short of clicking a location on the map and teleporting there instantly would compete with it.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Itzal is getting a nerf because at current it's not just Archwing vs K-drives, it's that Itzal > every other form of transportation without question.  Itzal would have still got a nerf evne without K-drives.  Rebb may have brought the topic up with K-drives vs Archwings, but Scott closed it with "Itzal is way out of line relative to everything else."

[SordidDreams]

3 hours ago, Goodwill said:

Problem with Itzal is that it completely breaks the distance scaling of the game forcing DE to create large environments just to accommodate. More so if they buff other archwings to Itzal's effectiveness. By scaling back an arbitrary value of motion speed, they can save a lot of time and money and allocate resources into making stages better, not larger. Itzal was perfectly fine in space missions where there is considerably less data. Also space missions were completely independent system than other missions but now that they overlap, there needs to be consistency. Unfortunately, the most effective and efficient method to do so is nerfing Itzal. Buffing other archwings would be counter-productive.

I agree, but again, coptering is a suitable blueprint. Coptering was way faster than bullet jumping is; if they make all archwings faster than they are now but slower than current Itzal, that would be fine.

41 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Itzal is getting a nerf because at current it's not just Archwing vs K-drives, it's that Itzal > every other form of transportation without question.  Itzal would have still got a nerf evne without K-drives.  Rebb may have brought the topic up with K-drives vs Archwings, but Scott closed it with "Itzal is way out of line relative to everything else."

Part of that is the fact that archwing is a vestigial game mode that's basically abandoned. Itzal isn't even the best example of that. Amesha is basically DE throwing its hands up and going "oh, you think archwing's frustrating? Fine, here's an AW that has infinite energy and is permanently invincible, that should take the edge off. Now let us get back to working on things we actually care about". There's no way that's not getting nerfed to hell too, btw.

Edited April 7, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Yousho]

1 hour ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Itzal is getting a nerf because at current it's not just Archwing vs K-drives, it's that Itzal > every other form of transportation without question.  Itzal would have still got a nerf evne without K-drives.  Rebb may have brought the topic up with K-drives vs Archwings, but Scott closed it with "Itzal is way out of line relative to everything else."

Nerfing the Itzal is ignoring the problem whilst removing the solution. 

Imagine if I gave you a choice between 9 bowls of dog poop and one delicious spaghetti bolognese. What this is is effectively removing the spaghetti and replacing it with another bowl of dog poop so that "now you have an actual choice to make!" 

[Ishinae]

Agreed, do you want to annoy the player base by making us take longer to get to places?

Now, if you give us more reason to want to go slowly (more things inbetween areas, or more hidden items that we need to be careful and look for), maybe it's alright to take the itzal away.

I'd say it's probably way easier to upgrade everything else though.

Wouldn't mind both upgrading everything else, and there being less reason to use the crazy speed.

Also if you take the itzal away for RAILJACK, the thing WE ARE ALL LOOKING FORWARD TO, there will be anger.

Please don't nerf the itzal.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Ishinae

[Goodwill]

6 hours ago, Yousho said:

Nerfing the Itzal is ignoring the problem whilst removing the solution. 

Imagine if I gave you a choice between 9 bowls of dog poop and one delicious spaghetti bolognese. What this is is effectively removing the spaghetti and replacing it with another bowl of dog poop so that "now you have an actual choice to make!" 

Poor analogy that is purely based on your subjective opinion. I could easily play that game:

What if there were 9 bowls of spaghetti and 1 bowl of dog poop made to look like spaghetti. What would be the best way everyone can get a proper bowl of spaghetti? Disguise more dog poop as spaghetti? Or replace the dog poop with an edible bowl of spaghetti?

My analogy is equally as poor as yours because it's hypocritical and one-sided. There are proper ways to argue your case but analogies isn't one of them in this particular debate.

 

[TARINunit9]

 

16 hours ago, Inumayobaka said:

This applies to both the current Archwing flight and the 'Experimental Flight' option that you added.
BOTH OF THEM ARE BAD.
The only good thing I can say about Archwing is that they allow us to go somewhere in a straight line very quickly.
Itzal just does it better than all other Archwings thanks to Blink.

What we desperately need is what you did with Parkour.
You stopped our old "coptering" and overhauled Warframe mobility, introducing Parkour.
Bullet Jumping, Aim-Gliding, Wall Latching, etc. All of them are great. They were well received by us and "coptering" is a forgotten fond memory of the past now.
It was a new and greatly improved movement for us to experience.

11 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Agreed 100%. Players being locked into selecting one particular piece of gear because of its utility is a valid concern, however the solution is not to remove the utility, it's the opposite, make it available more widely. That's a lesson DE has learned repeatedly, coptering/parkour, vacuum... Sadly they have a track record of forgetting lessons and having to relearn them all over. I hope it won't happen with archwings.

It goes further than that

Itzal is balanced around having Blink and Penumbra. Itzal is fragile, like a Nova/Loki hybrid but in the air. Remove Blink and you remove a valuable survival tool

But nobody brings this up because nobody wants to actually FIGHT in archwings. In fact we flat-out can't. Why can't we use them for combat? Two reasons:

1. Busted momentum. You can't do strafing runs or bombing runs without crashing into the ground -- your momentum will instantly redirect itself once you start shooting. Yet at the same time you can't stop moving without holding down your S key for like 15 seconds, because now all of a sudden your momentum follows the laws of reality
2. Those thirce-cursed EMP missiles. They instantly disable your archwing and freaking EVERYONE can shoot them at you

As a result, Itzal's downsides never come up, and he only has the upside of having Blink. And the other archwings have no upsides at all

DE doesn't even need to "remove Blink, but compensate with other options that are also good". They need to have an archwing system that we can actually use at all

[Lost_Cartographer]

7 hours ago, Yousho said:

Nerfing the Itzal is ignoring the problem whilst removing the solution. 

Imagine if I gave you a choice between 9 bowls of dog poop and one delicious spaghetti bolognese. What this is is effectively removing the spaghetti and replacing it with another bowl of dog poop so that "now you have an actual choice to make!" 

I'd go to another restaurant, or realize they're not 9 bowls of dog poop, I'm just being intolerant (metaphorically impatient) towards any other option on the table.

Hyperbole is fun, but it won't serve your argument well.

It's DE's call if they really want us to literally teleport across vast landscapes in the blink of an eye, as it is with virtually any other mechanic in the game or a tactic players pick up.  Clearly Scott thinks, "no, it's not okay for Itzal to be so much faster than every other option so as to be mandatory."  Plus Itzal's blink is a wholly different issue from whatever other problems people might have with travel in general.

Itzal('s blink) is the new Dual Zoren Roflcopter.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Itzal('s blink) is the new Dual Zoren Roflcopter.

It really isn't

After coptering was removed, DE added things that were technically slower but still felt nice and fast to most players. In addition, Zoren coptering was still really strong as an actual combat move, to the point it eventually evolved into Atterax Maiming Body Rush Overload as a result of power creep

For it to be truly analogous, Scott would have to only nerf Blink's out of combat applications -- leaving it a viable survival tool for Itzal in combat that it was originally designed for -- and add in (just a hypothetical example here) high-altitude fast-flight mode that all archwings can enjoy, plus a set of mods for K-drives that let us use them slightly more effectively if we run into an enemy patrol or accidentally get rear-ended by a coildrive or something

[Yamazuki]

9 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

I'd go to another restaurant, or realize they're not 9 bowls of dog poop, I'm just being intolerant (metaphorically impatient) towards any other option on the table.

Hyperbole is fun, but it won't serve your argument well.

It's DE's call if they really want us to literally teleport across vast landscapes in the blink of an eye, as it is with virtually any other mechanic in the game or a tactic players pick up.  Clearly Scott thinks, "no, it's not okay for Itzal to be so much faster than every other option so as to be mandatory."  Plus Itzal's blink is a wholly different issue from whatever other problems people might have with travel in general.

Itzal('s blink) is the new Dual Zoren Roflcopter.

The problem is anything they do other than completely removing it would change the fact it should be used 100% of the time for Orb/PoE. It's the fastest of Archwings even without it, and any sort of additional mobility tied to it will make it the best of them for going from one destination to the next; however, Itzal's identity is partly tied to the fact it has mobility and low defensive stats compared to the other options. Saying Itzal's blink is a problem compared to other Archwings is admitting Archwings serve absolutely zero purpose other than for transportation. If they had a use for something other than mobility Itzal wouldn't be used 100% of the time other than where speed still matters most (Eidolons and general hunting). At that point, it makes more sense for Archwings to not be used in Orb/PoE and instead just lets us get a different one used only for Orb/PoE., probably even similar to K-Drives in how make them.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Yamazuki

[Goodwill]

11 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

The problem is anything they do other than completely removing it would change the fact it should be used 100% of the time for Orb/PoE. It's the fastest of Archwings even without it, and any sort of additional mobility tied to it will make it the best of them for going from one destination to the next; however, Itzal's identity is partly tied to the fact it has mobility and low defensive stats compared to the other options. Saying Itzal's blink is a problem compared to other Archwings is admitting Archwings serve absolutely zero purpose other than for transportation. If they had a use for something other than mobility Itzal wouldn't be used 100% of the time other than where speed still matters most (Eidolons and general hunting). At that point, it makes more sense for Archwings to not be used in Orb/PoE and instead just lets us get a different one used only for Orb/PoE., probably even similar to K-Drives in how make them.

By that same notion, why does DE bother adding in new Warframe's or weapons? Sometimes "better" isn't always better. If people want to use Itzal, that's their choice. I change my Archwing depending on which one suits the Warframe I'm playing. Petty and simple reason but a reason nonetheless.

True, Archwings could use work but there is no solution that the players, nor DE could come up with that will satisfy everyone and that's the reality of the situation.

[Ryusuta]

While it doesn't hurt me much because I play Zephyr, I definitely agree with everything the OP wrote. 

[CaptainMinty]

Personally, I say remove blink and replace it with something else. Blink in Archwing gameplay launches so far it loses any effectiveness other than mobility, which the Itzal has loads of in natural speed. The drones draw fire quite well and instant stealth and brakes with an aoe crowd control make the Itzal an incredible support Archwing. (though Amesha still rocks the boat.)
Blink should be replaced with a proper damaging first that synchronizes with its third. Perhaps an aoe stun wave that briefly prevents enemies from moving and using their weapons while doing a small amount of damage? I don't know. Just Blink is boring as an ability.

[Yousho]

23 hours ago, Goodwill said:

Poor analogy that is purely based on your subjective opinion. I could easily play that game:

What if there were 9 bowls of spaghetti and 1 bowl of dog poop made to look like spaghetti. What would be the best way everyone can get a proper bowl of spaghetti? Disguise more dog poop as spaghetti? Or replace the dog poop with an edible bowl of spaghetti?

My analogy is equally as poor as yours because it's hypocritical and one-sided. There are proper ways to argue your case but analogies isn't one of them in this particular debate.

 

I don't think it's a stretch to say that all other arch-wings are categorically garbage. 
If the Itzal wasn't actually the spaghetti among the poop, at least for the vast majority of people, then there wouldn't be this problem of a "lack of choice", now, would there? 

But, here's the thing, if you actually think the Itzal is bad and the others are good...then nothing is stopping you from using the others. 
In the current situation people with a Itzal can use it if they want and if you don't like the Itzal...nobody is forcing you to use it. Everybody gets to do what they enjoy. 
But, by nerfing the Itzal you're forcing those of us who don't like dragging our metal asses across a huge landscape at a rate slightly faster than continental drift to play *your* way. 

Currently the Itzal isn't hurting anybody in a way that they can't easily fix themselves - why should I not be able to use a thing just because you don't like using it?