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Wisp Review/Early feedback


ShikiRen
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2 hours ago, F8ted said:

You know what I don't understand? Why you have this sort of claim over a frame named Wisp. Like, it's a hilarious joke but really that is what she should be. Look up any sort of definition, synonym and description of a Wisp. A disgusting cliche? What the hell are you talking about? Like in other games where it has a well established niche? There is one frame that has anything to do with ghosts in this game out of thirty-nine, and that's just to summon enemies after they are killed. There are more "shield" themed frames than ghost themed. Like glad you are getting one ability you like. Could have put it on Ember and no one would have complained. You are inherently biased against wisps initial theme, making any sort of objective discussion with you difficult. Strange how you go waggling bias around as if it weren't you guilty of it.  

A placeholder name is a placeholder ("Wisp" is not confirmed as the frame's final name, it is as significant as when they called Revenant "Vlad"). To already innately attach your own interpretation of the theme to the frame based on non finalised details is actually one's own problem of confirmation, because they have not settled anything.

This is why I find is pretty dumb why people are still insisting "Wisp" is out of theme or that there is an initial theme. There is no theme in the first place. What do you want DE to call her on the Devstream if they can't use a Placeholder Name? "Female Frame no. 18/19"? "Butt Prime"? That's utterly ridiculous.

This is why I find discussions about theme and building powers on theme utterly unproductive as long as Placeholders remain Placeholders. Theme is already quite subjective and open to interpretation, how can there be objective discussions on it?

To argue that her powers are out of theme is equivalent to saying "I don't like her powers because I don't like her powers". You are free to dislike them, but this is not a valid argument why they are bad.

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3 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

A placeholder name is a placeholder

Yeah, but calm down, because a placeholder name is also indicative of the theme, because it's a memetic method of remembering which one you're working on and what theme you're trying to give them.

Revenant was renamed from Vlad because his original theme was a vampiric one, but when the decision was made to push more of the Eidolon (and thus the 'reanimated sentient' theme, with lasers, the Vomvalyst imagery on his Reeve and so on) they changed the name for the final release to reflect that this was now his theme.

Meanwhile, other frames with less... definable themes, came through with their testing names intact, like Baruuk, Hildryn and Khora.

Until Wisp releases with a different name, being called Wisp actually is an indication of theme and aesthetic.

On the other hand, you're not wrong. Arguing that her powers are off theme isn't the argument to change them. And I'm of the opinion that you're getting the wrong end of the stick with the argument if you think that's where a lot of us are coming from (some of us are, but a lot of us aren't).

What most of us are saying is that her abilities do not make a cohesive whole for a frame. There are a few frames that operate on this, like Rhino, where their kit is only loosely themed into their chosen thing of 'the heaviest frame created', but in practice there's no real relation between a linear offensive charge, a defensive over-armour, a radial damage buff and a time-slowing Crowd Control cast.

But in this specific, Wisp's abilities don't even have that functionality that Rhino's do. Rhino gets by with the simple expedient of his abilities having function over aesthetic

Wisp has currently got a 1 that places buff banners, a 2 that's a mild CC and also a teleport/blind/invulnerability if used that way, a 3 that is only functional if you cast her 1 first and only if that 1 is placed in a position that's useful (and not, say, at the beginning of the map for players to get the speed boost to reach the objective), and a 4 that is a steer-the-animation function that will either nuke everything in the most boring way possible, or get her killed at high level before its damage scales up.

These abilities are not only un-cohesive, they're also not all functional alone. Which is bad ability design.

So what we're suggesting is that better, more cohesive abilities could be found if you were to take the name 'Wisp' and theme some of them differently. Look for functions within that theme, and see how they work in practice.

Such as; placing a buff banner grants all three buffs, and you can have up to three of those out at a time, cancelling the oldest one whenever you cast a new one. Give that a function for Wisp beyond the buffs, such as instant relocation from one to the other if recasting within the range of an existing one, while allies still get all the buffs as normal just for passing through its radius.

How about the damage dealer on her 3 can still use the placed buff banners as a source of radial damage, but the damage primarily comes from Wisp and the radial damage from the buff locations is a bonus for the additional energy casts you've made. A similar example is Nidus' Link ability, where the cast to place Link on a target or an ally also results in you getting a second Virulence attack when you cast that ability. Primarily you use Virulence to deal direct damage, but secondarily you get another Virulence from another source because you cast the extra ability to make that possible.

How about instead of 'opening a portal to the sun', you create ability that actually plays into the other abilities (rather than ignoring them like the current one does) by something like a radial field that has a direct effect (a little CC and a buff for yourself and allies to take advantage of, like a damage buff on the enemy within range), then has a secondary effect that is triggered if you've put in the energy casts for your other abilities, such as drawing enemies to your buff banners, and then your 3 deals bonus damage to enemies affected by your 4, meaning that you have a self-buffing function, a combination that rewards your using your other abilities.

So if your 3 radiates from the player, primarily, then you can cast your 4, everything gets the light CC effect and then casting your 3 gives you bonus damage. Or you can cast your 1 in a position, multiple times if you'd like, then cast your 4, and aside from the light CC, they are also clustered around the banners and conveniently clustered within range of your 3's secondary damage effect radiating from those buff banners. You can potentially boost your damage up to very high levels by creating ability combos. And potential damage is something DE likes.

Now, I came up with those concepts by looking at the general theme of 'Wisp'. In which the fairy tales and stories around them do agree on a few things, like Wisps appear to lead travellers when they're lost, often this is maliciously to lead them to their deaths, and some say that groups of Wisps get stronger together, so if you wonder into a Grove where a Wisp holds sway, you are not likely to emerge alive. Wisps often appear in fog, and people seeing them often wander straight into the grove of a Wisp or just into a bog that will kill them.

So swap out Wisps little buff totems for a Grove, just a little appropriately themed point where allies can just run through to get their buffs, summoning Wisps to their aid to make themselves stronger. Swap out the Sol Beam for Lost Souls, a low field of mist (like Oberon's Hallowed Ground) that stuns and then places a damage multiplier onto the affected enemies so you can kill them easier, but if there's a Grove nearby, enemies will move into range of that and begin attacking instead (better potential CC) and you can then trigger your 3 for better damage on all those enemies affected.

tl;dr

It's not that we're complaining she doesn't match her theme. We're complaining her abilities are not exactly good in the first place and that, by simply looking at a theme based off her name, we've already come up with better abilities that would function better in game.

And for those people that weren't coming up with better abilities, they thought that by sticking with a theme, DE could come up with better instead.

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19 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

A placeholder name is a placeholder ("Wisp" is not confirmed as the frame's final name, it is as significant as when they called Revenant "Vlad"). To already innately attach your own interpretation of the theme to the frame based on non finalised details is actually one's own problem of confirmation, because they have not settled anything.

This is why I find is pretty dumb why people are still insisting "Wisp" is out of theme or that there is an initial theme. There is no theme in the first place. What do you want DE to call her on the Devstream if they can't use a Placeholder Name? "Female Frame no. 18/19"? "Butt Prime"? That's utterly ridiculous.

This is why I find discussions about theme and building powers on theme utterly unproductive as long as Placeholders remain Placeholders. Theme is already quite subjective and open to interpretation, how can there be objective discussions on it?

To argue that her powers are out of theme is equivalent to saying "I don't like her powers because I don't like her powers". You are free to dislike them, but this is not a valid argument why they are bad.

I have created two different skill sets to address my concerns with the kit. Yes, they are more ingrained than just the theme, it is just the most pressing issue to most people. To illustrate this, I even ran with your idea of a light theme. Mechanically, the abilities are better designed for the nature of Warframe. I also took care of course, to stay within a theme while changing abilities that would be at best described as clunky. Theorycrafters will still need to wait to see the numbers to truly state if she will be "good", but we realize it will be just one ability that this requires. If her 4 is one of the better nukes in the game, she will be considered strong, regardless of what her other abilities do. If you are able to blind a whole room with her 2, she will be strong, regardless of what her other abilities do. These however must be game-breaking levels of strong to shake up their competition.

Her 1 will never be as good, or as useful as another benchmark: Chroma's 3. To compare, Chroma can give around 10x multiplier in damage, and an equivalent increase in armor. For the sake of argument, it is much more prevalent for a damage increase to be important than an armor increase. This is simply requisite on him being within around affinity distance of a squad mate. His 2, another survival buff, can even be modded to remain after cast regardless of distance. To compete, Wisp will have to increase damage well over this threshold simply because it is so unwieldy. Even banshee, who has a similar threshold on her 2, is often built to take advantage of her 4. The key difference being the ergonomics. To Banshee, it is much faster and easier to hit 4, even if channeled, than it is to hit 2 and aim for weakspots. For enemies not affected by her 4, it may be more effective for her to use 2, but the number of enemies affected by her 2 that are not also affected by her 4 is very small. Sure at a certain point her 4 doesn't deal enough damage to do more than rock an enemy gently to sleep, but then she can switch effortlessly to her 2 to continue to be effective. Similarly, Chroma never has illusions of his damage abilities being effective. He just doesn't have an ability that clears the room of enemies less than level 40. Instead, he always bets on the best way to find a spot in the team: huge passively applied buffs. With Chroma on your team you don't need to pick up a buff, aim at a weak spot, or shoot through a shield. You just get more damage. It's not that these mechanics aren't to some degree interesting, it's that none of them exist as the only choice to bring in a squad. While playing Mesa shooting though Volt's shield vastly improves damage, but it's already liberating to have Mesa's Waltz to reposition. To stand behind where someone created you a spot is disruptive to gameplay. Instead, if that Mesa had a Chroma, they could turret where they want. On a grand scale this determines the popularity of a Warframe, where even something like permanent in mission flight can be on one of the least popular frame.

All stated, I have clearly, multiple times, stated that mechanically the abilities are flawed. I complain about theme because it is a "gimme" part of design. This was decided at the concept art phase and required no further balance considerations. As it does in most games and most abilities. You could create whatever theme you wanted in whatever setting required and it would still be fine. Aesthetically speaking, if all of Wisps abilities ended up looking like a flame/sun theme, they will have passed this first, simple test. Same is true if they keep it to a ghost/darkness theme. The mechanics of the ability can be entirely separate from the appearance. A decoy used to taunt could simply be a target symbol. A stomp can release earth shards, or ice shards. A beam of destruction can be fire, electricity, slash, or can reverse and suck something in. This doesn't change the function of the ability. With such leeway it is surprising that there is so little cohesion in the end on some sort of theme. A work in progress it may be, but this is step 1: The Easy Part.

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If those who replied to me followed my posts on this thread, you will know I am strongly against Wisp's current 1 and the state of her 3 not propagating from her main body. The aesthetic of using a portal to pop a miniature star at a set point that deals scaling damage like Hydroid's 3 in formula but heat/radiation I have suggested before, rather than buffs. It will not hurt if we have another DPS frame that scales.

Her 2 is actually fine. It is confirmed that there will be a blind and invulnerability window, so two quick taps can be used for panic CC. All I would ask is to tack on invis as long as the decoy travels.

Give her 3's pulses armor strip/magnetic procs that drain shields away to make her damage and her team's damage more effective. It's easy enough to justify this as like ... opening a portal to the sun's corona. Of course, wisp herself ejects the main pulse from herself.

Her ulti can get the Chroma 1 treatment and allow her to retain full mobility or even be made into an exalted beam. She can even get a Baruuk Elude like thing where the portal she opens can suck bullets in a frontal cone.

This is just one possible suggestion, it has a unified appearance, it has workable skills. Fun is subjective so I don't mention it.

I don't get the reasoning behind "oh no this cannot scale, damage is bad/boring", "Wisp must be a support" and the infamous "Synergy is gud". Frames with forced Synergy are annoying and stupid, really. Natural Synergy, like a Speed Nova with Antimatter absorb (enemies clump faster, the drop absorbs more shots from enemies firing faster, the drop explodes for double damage to those affected by Molecular Prime) is less clunky.

The only thing I don't get is why people bash on Wisp's skills other than the obviously static 1 and 3 forcing 1 to be present, since none of them look completely unworkable as long as the numbers are good enough. I don't find them mechanically that flawed.

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We've already got a fair share of DPS frames already and can do with something else, as the game is already heavily tilting to the point where "Muh big numbers" is the only real strategy needed. And we all know how quick they are with those nerfs when something gets too popular and/or strong. More emphasis on support and frames that don't essentially need damaging abilities (because guns exist) also helps slow the powercreep a bit. Because DPS frames are either stupidly overpowered to compensate for the game's aggressively bad scaling, or they become Ember. Utility stays useful at nearly all levels because while damage falls off, function doesn't. Also her 2 does have invisibility. You can see it in the devstream, and it's the only ability she has that doesn't feel like a rehash of another frame's ability. 

Her 3 is still poor for being solely reliant on her totems being up, and adding a pulse to the main body isn't going to help that since I doubt a tanky frame would have any need for both a passive that gives invisibility, and an ability that both fires a decoy and adds invisibility. Unless it's stupidly strong to offset the risk of diving into groups to make the most of it.

Her 4 needs to just be changed. Even with full mobility having yet another channeled damage skill is a waste of a slot and channeling it will likely keep her from using her other skills when something inevitably starts firing from off-screen. It doesn't even have the benefit Revenant's 4 has of hitting things all around her.

Nobody, from what I've seen, is saying that she needs synergy, and conflating interaction with forced synergy is only going to muddy things up. You can use Saryn's spores and use her miasma independently. Both are viable but become more effective when used together. Her current 3 is forced synergy as it can't function without 1 being active. Having skills do something different or extra when combined is good because it adds options, which means the frame can be played in more ways than "Hurr press a couple of buttons and enemies die" similar to how old ember's WoF would stop hurting things at higher levels, but slapping on Firequake gave it value as a kind of CC. Mechanically they aren't entirely flawed. But they're boring and feel very last-minute. Especially the 3 and 4.

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It's very hard to follow anything on this, it's a megathread, other threads get merged in and conversations are lost. Now, to your points;

4 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

It will not hurt if we have another DPS frame that scales.

No, but it will hurt that frame if the DPS is at the expense of all their other abilities and gameplay. I mean, even if it worked better, why would you use her 3 at all when you can use her current 4? If her current 4 scales well enough?

That 'if' is the other side of things. These kinds of abilities walk the fine line of either being god-tier over-powered or underpowered when it actually matters. If you even attempt to set the damage low enough that it's not a low-level nuke, but then expect it to scale up so that it becomes viable in end-game, then that's just naive. If it has to scale up, per enemy it's hitting, to have high enough damage to kill even level 100 enemies, then you're going to get killed using it because it's an aimed ability, not a radial one and the enemies in Warframe function like a horde shooter. If it has enough damage at base that the scaling quickly ramps it up to deadly at those levels, then it's too powerful below those levels and players won't use anything else but that.

We've seen it before, we'll see it again. People complain about frames like Mesa and Saryn already, constantly, and say they're ruining the game. Having yet another frame that can spin in a circle and kill everything her laser points at? Just the same thing.

Damage, as a concept, is not bad. Damage in this execution is just plain boring, no matter how flashy the visuals.

What you have to do is compliment it, I mean, if you were following my comments, you'd see that I was exactly encouraging the kind of synergy that Nova has. Where if you use one ability, things are primed for its effects, and then using another ability creates a bonus effect along with its regular effect, or a different ability has its own bonus effect if used in tandem, and if you use all three? Bigger bonus while getting all the benefits of the original abilities the rest of the time.

But doing so without a ridiculous, boring, 'steer around the animation' 4.

Let her 3 deal damage, and let her 4 facilitate it being better damage, just like the kind of synergy that actually works in Warframe.

Just say no to boring steer-me-around damage.

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8 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's very hard to follow anything on this, it's a megathread, other threads get merged in and conversations are lost. Now, to your points;

No, but it will hurt that frame if the DPS is at the expense of all their other abilities and gameplay. I mean, even if it worked better, why would you use her 3 at all when you can use her current 4? If her current 4 scales well enough?

That 'if' is the other side of things. These kinds of abilities walk the fine line of either being god-tier over-powered or underpowered when it actually matters. If you even attempt to set the damage low enough that it's not a low-level nuke, but then expect it to scale up so that it becomes viable in end-game, then that's just naive. If it has to scale up, per enemy it's hitting, to have high enough damage to kill even level 100 enemies, then you're going to get killed using it because it's an aimed ability, not a radial one and the enemies in Warframe function like a horde shooter. If it has enough damage at base that the scaling quickly ramps it up to deadly at those levels, then it's too powerful below those levels and players won't use anything else but that.

We've seen it before, we'll see it again. People complain about frames like Mesa and Saryn already, constantly, and say they're ruining the game. Having yet another frame that can spin in a circle and kill everything her laser points at? Just the same thing.

Damage, as a concept, is not bad. Damage in this execution is just plain boring, no matter how flashy the visuals.

What you have to do is compliment it, I mean, if you were following my comments, you'd see that I was exactly encouraging the kind of synergy that Nova has. Where if you use one ability, things are primed for its effects, and then using another ability creates a bonus effect along with its regular effect, or a different ability has its own bonus effect if used in tandem, and if you use all three? Bigger bonus while getting all the benefits of the original abilities the rest of the time.

But doing so without a ridiculous, boring, 'steer around the animation' 4.

Let her 3 deal damage, and let her 4 facilitate it being better damage, just like the kind of synergy that actually works in Warframe.

Just say no to boring steer-me-around damage.

Her current 4 will still cover less area than her 3. Again, as I said, it would be easier to just tack on an effect like armor strip or similar to her 3. There can be much simpler changes rather than anything too drastic. The need to use 1 before 3 can be used is pretty much on the stupid side already.

Again, "boring" is subjective, so I wouldn't use that as an argument. Why should I say no to "Steer me around damage" when it could be turned into an exalted weapon or given the Chroma 1 treatment with full damage? Why must I be forced to like supposed "utility" that your suggestion has? I don't see the reason for tedium to go through all the setup, or why all skills must always be used, rather than situational utility like the first 8 frames have.

Now I understand why people just say "wait for the release and see". Because right now people are basically just throwing out ideas they wanna see, which may have more or less takers. Might as well just wait for DE to give us something and just be happy/unhappy then. "Wisp" isn't going to be the last frame made anyway.

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6 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Her current 4 will still cover less area than her 3. Again, as I said, it would be easier to just tack on an effect like armor strip or similar to her 3. There can be much simpler changes rather than anything too drastic. The need to use 1 before 3 can be used is pretty much on the stupid side already.

Again, "boring" is subjective, so I wouldn't use that as an argument. Why should I say no to "Steer me around damage" when it could be turned into an exalted weapon or given the Chroma 1 treatment with full damage? Why must I be forced to like supposed "utility" that your suggestion has? I don't see the reason for tedium to go through all the setup, or why all skills must always be used, rather than situational utility like the first 8 frames have.

Now I understand why people just say "wait for the release and see". Because right now people are basically just throwing out ideas they wanna see, which may have more or less takers. Might as well just wait for DE to give us something and just be happy/unhappy then. "Wisp" isn't going to be the last frame made anyway.

This is just my opinion now

No Wisp isn't going to be the last frame made, but its going to be the last frame with that particular visual design. And I was personally hoping to see a floating ghost be a stealth based frame.

I do think her current moveset could be cool, but I just wish it was not on this frames visuals... Maybe on a warframe with a more shamanistic theme, putting down buff totems, using the power of the sun. Could make for a cool shaman warframe.

If anything i'm more disappointed that I will never see this frames visuals in a cool stealth frame once its released as a buff/DPS frame. no amount of rework once its release can completely change the fundamental playstyle and role of the frame, hench why im personally attempting to make my voice heard now rather than later.

 

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2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Why should I say no to "Steer me around damage" when it could be turned into an exalted weapon or given the Chroma 1 treatment with full damage?

Because, and here is the over-arching point; it can't be used with anything else.

Her passive invisibility? Unusable barring a second or so at the start of the cast. Her 1? In its current form (and any potential form that we could give it) there's almost nothing it can do, and you certainly can't place new 'wells' while her 4 is active, meanwhile the buffs it gives won't help because at best you'll be able to move around a little faster, the CC and Health won't do anything. Her 2? Disabled while using her 4. Her 3? Also disabled while using her 4.

Primary, secondary and melee weapons? All disabled too.

You are losing any and all utility your frame has in order to gain a direct damage ability. And the problems with that direct damage ability are ones I've pointed out already, but on top of that, other frames with similar direct damage abilities (such as Mesa) have other abilities that support it. Mesa has Shatter Shield and Shooting Gallery to keep her alive while using her 4, Revenant has a literal immortality ability and Reeve for supporting using his 4, and and Garuda had this same type of ability removed in the development stage because her other abilities didn't actually have these same kind of functions; the function of supporting a mode where you're having every other option removed and have to be exclusively in an animation.

This problem is not limited to damage abilities either. DE have recently removed the 'in air' limitation on casting abilities because animation locks are not good for gameplay. there are abilities that actively suffer because of animation locks (such as Zephyr's 1), locked animation on abilities is not good for Warframe gameplay in and of itself.

And at every chance we get, we should not hobble frames by introducing that problem onto them without adequate support for it. And currently, Wisp's kit doesn't have that.

2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Again, as I said, it would be easier to just tack on an effect like armor strip or similar to her 3.

I think you're hitting on my problem with this when you say 'just tack on an effect'.

Because, here's the question, why would you use her 3 with the current state of her 4? If you can, at longer range than your 3, just burn everything down with your 4? Why use your 3 at all, even if it has armour strip?

If casting her 3 does strip armour, then how much would you have to scale that, how many casts would you have to do, in order to beat the damage scaling of her 4? It's the same as the Ash argument before the changes to his 4 limited the number of hits it could do to a single target. Sure, Seeking Shuriken can strip armour, but why would you use that when his old 4 ignored armour completely?

Let's not create redundancy in our warframes before they're even released.

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Because, and here is the over-arching point; it can't be used with anything else.

Her passive invisibility? Unusable barring a second or so at the start of the cast. Her 1? In its current form (and any potential form that we could give it) there's almost nothing it can do, and you certainly can't place new 'wells' while her 4 is active, meanwhile the buffs it gives won't help because at best you'll be able to move around a little faster, the CC and Health won't do anything. Her 2? Disabled while using her 4. Her 3? Also disabled while using her 4.

Seems to be a few assumptions we are making here, that using the 4 will lock her out of casting the other powers or that it prevents the passive invisibility. This is quite a large leap of logic that has to be made. You have already assumed that Wisp's skills will be prevented from casting when the 4 is active, when there are frames which can cast their powers when channeling a continuous ability.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Primary, secondary and melee weapons? All disabled too.

You are losing any and all utility your frame has in order to gain a direct damage ability. And the problems with that direct damage ability are ones I've pointed out already, but on top of that, other frames with similar direct damage abilities (such as Mesa) have other abilities that support it. Mesa has Shatter Shield and Shooting Gallery to keep her alive while using her 4, Revenant has a literal immortality ability and Reeve for supporting using his 4, and and Garuda had this same type of ability removed in the development stage because her other abilities didn't actually have these same kind of functions; the function of supporting a mode where you're having every other option removed and have to be exclusively in an animation.

Again, the same assumption as previously made, which is assuming that Wisp is locked out of her powers when she is channeling the 4. Which we actually cannot tell if it will be true in the final build. DE has not even really showed the effect of the powers used on enemies, just the animations and what happens. Wisp's 2 can be functionally similar to Revenant's reave in being usable and costing less when using the 4.

As for the weapons being disabled, we already have that with exalted weapons, Danse Macabre and Hildryn's 4, so there is nothing new here. Your obsession seems to be removal of the 4 simply because you have a preferred playstyle - there is nothing wrong with such a preference, but this is just what you like. I just happen to disagree.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This problem is not limited to damage abilities either. DE have recently removed the 'in air' limitation on casting abilities because animation locks are not good for gameplay. there are abilities that actively suffer because of animation locks (such as Zephyr's 1), locked animation on abilities is not good for Warframe gameplay in and of itself.

And at every chance we get, we should not hobble frames by introducing that problem onto them without adequate support for it. And currently, Wisp's kit doesn't have that.

Yet we still have Revenant's 4 and Hildryn's 4.

Again, I will reiterate, we know too little about Wisp to be able to make such a judgement that she will be inadequate to use her 4 safely. All we see are visuals, not the actual combat effects and numbers. Without such, it is difficult to prove anything.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I think you're hitting on my problem with this when you say 'just tack on an effect'.

Because, here's the question, why would you use her 3 with the current state of her 4? If you can, at longer range than your 3, just burn everything down with your 4? Why use your 3 at all, even if it has armour strip?

If casting her 3 does strip armour, then how much would you have to scale that, how many casts would you have to do, in order to beat the damage scaling of her 4? It's the same as the Ash argument before the changes to his 4 limited the number of hits it could do to a single target. Sure, Seeking Shuriken can strip armour, but why would you use that when his old 4 ignored armour completely?

Let's not create redundancy in our warframes before they're even released.

I will simply pose a similar question - why not change the 1 and 3 rather than the 4? Or rather, why not wait and see what else the 3 does because all we see now are the fancy particle effects.

Also, Ash's 4 in his old iteration required power range (I assume you mean the 18 chain bladestorm with the animation) - if you built him for invis, it wouldn't be very effective to Bladestorm.

This is why I will reiterate, as much as I actually dislike such a stance, let's just wait and see until more details come out.

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This is my thinking process.

1, If we attach the temporary/internal name "Wisp" more truely to her theme ( plus what we have seen so far regarding how she move, how she goes invisible in air, and how she float about) i can sumarise her as an elusive, support frame that distract, and buff squadmates, rather than a damage dealer herself. With that in mind i think the following adjusment feels closer to her "character"

Power 1: Light - Basically her current 2, but instead of shooting one shadow to a direction, it should spawn multiple shadows (1 to 3 depending on power strength) that float off in different direction as a distraction/aggro to mob, while she turn invisible until the duration (effected by duration) of shadow run out. Pressing 1 again while pointing towards any 1 of her shadow will teleport her to that shadow, and do a small aoe confuse/blind to surrounding mob for X amount of time/invulnerable for x amount of time.

Power 2: Reservoir - Basically her current 1, but instead of a stationary buff/proc, its a cast ability. Casting on alies or mob will have positive/negative effect accordingly. Red is heal/hp drain: Casting on ally will increase hp recovery, while casting on mob will drain their hp, and heal Wisp herself; Blue is energy/shield drain: Casting on ally to increase energy rcovering, casting on mob to drain their shield/armor to replemish Wisp's shield/overshield and armor: Green is speed/slow: Casting on ally to increase their reload and melee speed, while casting on mob to slow them. Long press to choose between buff/proc, and quick tab to cast.

Power 3: TickTock - Build on her 2, pressing 3 will set off her 2 on any allies and mobs, and set off a small amount of stunt AOE from them (as if time itself stop where all mobs effected will stop for the duration), as well as Wisp herself. If no ally or mob carrying her 2 while casting, she send out a much longer/wider stunt AOE herself. The duration and range of the AOE depends on how many active "2" are around/out there... The less active "2" are out there, the more powerful/bigger her own aoe will be. Also the closer any ally and mob carrying her "2" towards her, the echo from each pulse will multiple, and increase the duration output of the pulsing. In contrast the more "2" carrier out there, it will cover bigger area, with smaller pulsing zone.

Power 4: Phantom - She transform into an energy entity, covered in pulses and flares that reach out. She phase in and out of realm, while able to do damage to surrounding, she is invulnarable to any incoming damage. Her speed increase, but cant use any primary, secondary and melee weapon. The only form of attack in this "phantom" stage is by phasing through a mob. As she pass through a mob she absorb their hp and shield to distribute to nearby ally. Mob will be confuse for x amount of time, as well as a proc (proc type depends on energy colour). If she phase through an ally, ally will get hp/energy recovery increase and a small speed boost. Her energy flares can reach and grab nearby mob to confuse them if they get too close (flares effect by range) The closer she is to a mob, the more damage she can do to them.

 

2, On the other hand, if "portal" and "ghost" are supposingly a theme closer to her (going invisible through plains, harness energy???) Then perhaps she is more of a mid-range DMG caster/CC frame.

Power 1: Blink - Appear through/along a mob/Ally of choice (click 1 while pointing at an ally/mob) unlike Loki, you dont swap places, you simply "run" along. If cast on a mob, the mob will be confuse for x amount of time, while casting on an ally will boost their speed as you.

Power 2: Displace - A CC skill to displace mob. Click and hold to select mobs, release to place selected mobs to location 15/20/25m backwards. Mob will suffer a short confuse after displacement, as well as impact proc.

Power 3: Dusk & Dawn - Summon a small sun/black hole to throw at direction of choice. This is a swapable power where long press to swap between, and quick tap to cast. The sun (Ball of light with energy colour, enveloped with red flares) will push mob in the path away with a fire proc & fear, while the black hole (The energy ball will be of your energy colour, with dark blue flares) will swallow mobs on the path, and end with an explosion when duration runs out, with mobs suffer from blast and radiation proc.

Power 4: Calamity - She summon a bubble of disaster (the type of damage depends on her energy colour) at selected location. Mobs nearby will be pull in and suffer the dedicated proc. This can be multi cast (max 5 bubbles at a time) and size of bubble effect by range, while duration effect how long each bubble last. Casting on same location will stack/multiply the strength and size of the bubble. When allies enter the bubble, their negative status effect will be neutralize. Wisp herself can transport between each bubbles, base on casting sequence.

 

This is what i thought so far after reading through many many pages and post from here and there....

 

Cheers

 

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15 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Seems to be a few assumptions we are making here

Right. Back. At. You.

I am at least going on what we were shown. That's what this feedback is for. We were shown abilities and how they work right at that point, and we're discussing the pros and cons of them at that point.

You can't say that I'm assuming because, until DE come up and show us otherwise, Wisp could not use any of her other abilities or her weapons during her 4.

Yes, there are frames with continual drain abilities that put them into a locked animation and can still cast other abilities. Let's count them; Revenant makes 1 and... wait... there aren't any more. You could argue Hildryn, but all she gets is her Balefire, and it's her only source of damage in that mode, because Aegis Storm is more about CC. Let's count the other frames that get into locked animations that drain energy and can't cast/recast abilities while those are active; Banshee, Chroma, Harrow, Inaros, Mesa and Nyx (un-augmented) makes 6 to 1 against. Forgive me for choosing to go with the majority of experience, rather than the one exception.

Until we're shown that her 4 is not like the other 6 that have abilities locked into animations, then we have to presume that it will be the same.

26 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

we know too little about Wisp to be able to make such a judgement that she will be inadequate to use her 4 safely

Actually, as I've said, we know only what we've seen. And what we've seen does not support her 4. At all.

What we've been shown is invisibility that only triggers when she's in the air, and no ability to jump while in her 4, what we've been shown is a buff ability that increases health, speed and adds a short-range Electric-proc CC, none of which would actively stop her getting shot at, what we've been shown is a direct damage attack on her 3 that is completely reliant on her 1 being out (and we both agree that should be fixed).

What none of these abilities do is what the other frames do; her 4 isn't Radial, like Banshee's 4 or Inaros' 3, and she doesn't have indirect or direct damage mitigation functions like Inaros, Mesa, Chroma, Harrow or Nyx, or even Hildryn. She has none of the things that make it possible for those frames to use their drain abilities that lock them into animations in a successful manner.

Without some function that does that, her 4 is going to either be a nuke or suicide. One or the other. We know this from actual frames that have similar functions in the game right now.

35 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

I will simply pose a similar question - why not change the 1 and 3 rather than the 4?

I will pose a simpler one; how have you not understood that I want to change all three of them?

Her 1, 3 and her 4 all need some manner of fix. For her 1 it's too clunky, too broken up into small bits, making it a terrible buffing ability simply because a player has to cast at minimum three times to get the buffs, but also travel between those three casts to gain and refresh them. Her 3, as currently shown, we both know needs to function as an ability first, and then have a bonus for her 1 being out, not the other way around.

But her 4 is, to me, the worst offender. It doesn't have any basic synergy with her kit, it's not supported by anything else she does, and it also (as shown) puts her in a state of 'rocket tag' where she either kills the enemy first, or they kill her. And considering there's only one of her, and lots of the enemy, we know which way that's going to work out once we move past the level 30-40 range.

50 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

This is why I will reiterate, as much as I actually dislike such a stance, let's just wait and see until more details come out.

Now me? I'm usually all for this method.

I was like that with almost all the other frames over the years. With the exception of the previous year or so.

The two notable exceptions were 1. Khora, and not for the frame, I was enthusiastic for the frame, but specifically for the IPS Status that came with her, and would have been a terrible way to update the game (honestly, DE definitely did not think the Impact one through at all...) and 2. Garuda, who was previewed with a 4 that was a mechanical clone of Revenant's, with lower range and different damage types on it, but still exactly the same. Garuda was not released with that 4, because DE went 'oh, yeah, maybe they're right' and created one of the best 4th abilities in the game because of it, one that not only works with the rest of her kit, but also works with every other frame that exists to turn her into one of the best scaling frames there is.

Meanwhile, a thousand and one threads popped up about Hildryn because of her being a shield-based frame, and, knowing that DE was making an experimental frame that would function based on Shields, I waited to see what would come of it, and I wasn't disappointed. DE may have created an ability where you steer around the animation, but guess what? They made it a Crowd Control ability that fed the team energy orbs, while the damage part came from using her 1st ability (which is actually pretty powerful) meaning that it's not the 4th being supported by the rest of her kit, it's her 4th actually supporting her kit. 

Given the success rate of saying no to 'steer around the animation' functions on Garuda, and the success rate of calling out bad mechanics on Khora, and then re-inforced by DE specifically not making those same mistakes on Hildryn, I think we should give feedback on Wisp.

Unlike Hildryn, DE are not making an experimental frame with unique mechanical theme and function so we have very close examples to her abilities to compare to.

Like Garuda and Khora, there are clear things we can see that do not work, so like them our feedback should be relevant to the process.

The Wait-and-See sticker is often stamped by me on things. It hasn't been here, because there are clear cut cases of DE missing concepts that they normally would not.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Datam4ss:

Seems to be a few assumptions we are making here, that using the 4 will lock her out of casting the other powers or that it prevents the passive invisibility. This is quite a large leap of logic that has to be made. You have already assumed that Wisp's skills will be prevented from casting when the 4 is active, when there are frames which can cast their powers when channeling a continuous ability.

A little over a week ago I asked Pablo during one of his broadcasts on Twitch if Wisp is able to use her 2 during her 4. His answer was no, but they might look into giving her a custom dash (like Hildryn's) while she uses her 4 instead.

Believe me if you want to or not, but I don't feel like searching last two VODs of his for a timestamp as I don't remember either in which one of those I asked the question nor at which part of them exactly it was.

Edited by Xhobract
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Is it so bad that a frame does damage? Is it so bad that frame lacks utility? I ask these cause I really need to know why people are so mad over a frame that is not out yet. You know that frames are their own style of gameplay right? Much less of what it used to be in the past, frames today are more freeform in their usage and play style coming with their own mini game of sorts. I feel as though, and I say this with respect, many min maxers, i myself am one to an extent, just do not have fun with th game anymore.

Why is it only about how good a frame is? Why is that metric we measure on? Prehaps being spoiled by the designs of Nidus and Mesa have ruined the Warframe community to the point where we can not accept even a slight deviation from concepts like such. Take Khora for example. I feel that many still hate her and think she is bad but that is completely unwaranted. She is nigh unkillable in endgame levels. Has utility, cc, and damage that scales. Yet because she didnt have and exalted whip she consider bad only because of her meh release. Min maxers probally wanted to do spin to win on her.

Lets look at Gara.  The secomd they nerfed the wall everyon forgot about her. Meanwhile, she still had infinite scaling damage and 90% that give that damage field to everyone with the dr as well. Also he first ability does made damage and is a hard cc. Did you know her fourth makes you do more damage to vitrified enemies and refreshes your 2?. Sure you dont really use her 3 but why was she thrown away?

Revenant Revenant Revenant. I am a huge advocate for this frame because of his one shot potential and his insane sustain making him, say with me, nigh unkillable. I feel that his pore is a garbage fire but his kit is sound and rather well designed. It is a closed system resource user and yes it is more efficient to use other frame but that's not the point of picking a frame yes? 

Garuda. Say it again! Nigh unkillable with massive infinite scaling dps tools in her kit and yet! People hate her and say she is bad. I am confused at this one in particular especially since i have started playing her even more. She is a monster when it comes to sustain and damage with some utility in there as well allowing you to use guns that you couldnt before because she adds slash!

Baruuk. ONE MORE TIME PEOPLE, nigh unkillable. Baruuk is well designed around his concept and evrrything in his kit makes sense. He just not played because people say he does scale but he does. He clears trash mobs well into the triple digits and if he slide attacks, can do the same for heavy units. He aslo offers alot of control with his ultimate.

The whole point im trying to make is that people are missing the essence of what warframe is. The warframes themselves. I played Nezha when he was "bad" and yet I never felt like he was bad at all. Sure i made post on the forum to ket some QoL things done but other than that i loved him deeply and played him because he was fun for me. I feel people have lost that thought. Warframe is not about having fun anymore. It is about how good a frame is and that to me is highly detrimental. But hey thats my two cents take it as you will

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2 minutes ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Is it so bad that a frame does damage? Is it so bad that frame lacks utility? I ask these cause I really need to know why people are so mad over a frame that is not out yet. You know that frames are their own style of gameplay right? Much less of what it used to be in the past, frames today are more freeform in their usage and play style coming with their own mini game of sorts. I feel as though, and I say this with respect, many min maxers, i myself am one to an extent, just do not have fun with th game anymore.

Why is it only about how good a frame is? Why is that metric we measure on? Prehaps being spoiled by the designs of Nidus and Mesa have ruined the Warframe community to the point where we can not accept even a slight deviation from concepts like such. Take Khora for example. I feel that many still hate her and think she is bad but that is completely unwaranted. She is nigh unkillable in endgame levels. Has utility, cc, and damage that scales. Yet because she didnt have and exalted whip she consider bad only because of her meh release. Min maxers probally wanted to do spin to win on her.

Lets look at Gara.  The secomd they nerfed the wall everyon forgot about her. Meanwhile, she still had infinite scaling damage and 90% that give that damage field to everyone with the dr as well. Also he first ability does made damage and is a hard cc. Did you know her fourth makes you do more damage to vitrified enemies and refreshes your 2?. Sure you dont really use her 3 but why was she thrown away?

Revenant Revenant Revenant. I am a huge advocate for this frame because of his one shot potential and his insane sustain making him, say with me, nigh unkillable. I feel that his pore is a garbage fire but his kit is sound and rather well designed. It is a closed system resource user and yes it is more efficient to use other frame but that's not the point of picking a frame yes? 

Garuda. Say it again! Nigh unkillable with massive infinite scaling dps tools in her kit and yet! People hate her and say she is bad. I am confused at this one in particular especially since i have started playing her even more. She is a monster when it comes to sustain and damage with some utility in there as well allowing you to use guns that you couldnt before because she adds slash!

Baruuk. ONE MORE TIME PEOPLE, nigh unkillable. Baruuk is well designed around his concept and evrrything in his kit makes sense. He just not played because people say he does scale but he does. He clears trash mobs well into the triple digits and if he slide attacks, can do the same for heavy units. He aslo offers alot of control with his ultimate.

The whole point im trying to make is that people are missing the essence of what warframe is. The warframes themselves. I played Nezha when he was "bad" and yet I never felt like he was bad at all. Sure i made post on the forum to ket some QoL things done but other than that i loved him deeply and played him because he was fun for me. I feel people have lost that thought. Warframe is not about having fun anymore. It is about how good a frame is and that to me is highly detrimental. But hey thats my two cents take it as you will

Oh you poor naive child.

we have an issue with big damage 4s now because DEs getting in the habit of just making that a frames 4th ability when they could do something more inventive.

We criticize a frame that’s not out yet because if we don’t like it then we won’t buy it, we don’t buy it DE loses money. We don’t want a frame to not be fun, we also don’t want a frame to be bad.

Khora gets a bad wrap because she did come to the game in really bad shape, she’s been improved but she’s still not amazing. Just good. And her 4th going from a potential exalted whip to an ability that’s the worst part of her kit didn’t help her reputation.

Gara started getting more respect lately, like due to some of the youtubers reclarifying just how good she is.

Revenant IS garbage. His 1 shot potential is over complicated when compared to other frames who have the potential to one shot at a greater rate with less effort. His 2 is over rated. Over all he’s a complete failure of frame design.

Nobody hates Garuda. She’s a little slow and clunky and could really stand to lose the reliance on efficiency for her 3, but she’s one of the one shot frames that makes Revenant redundant.

Baruuks 4 is underpowered. Having to rely on his slide attacks for kills at higher levels when it’s main focus is the giant energy waves is infuriating. I agree that he is well designed, mechanically. But his 4’s lacking performance against armor holds him back. It doesn’t matter that he can tank and CC (several frames can do that) when what’s supposed to be the high light of his kit is such a letdown.

You’re too focused on the idea that we only want frames to be good. But you forget that next to nobody plays Octavia because she’s not very fun to play. There’s also other variables like whether or not the frame is designed well. Are the synergies of the frame we’ll thought out. A frame like Revenant has instances of anti synergy that actively hurt his performance. There’s also the argument of does the frame match it’s intended theme. Which when they don’t can really make people upset. You’re not looking at the big picture.

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On 2019-04-14 at 5:39 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Honestly I would say that her 2 is going to be my most used ability on her. I saw how enemies behaved on that preview, they literally left cover to chase it, while firing. The 'aggro draw' decoys have gotten so much better over time, and I actually feel like I can trust them. It's definitely going to be an ability I can cast and just gun down enemies that aren't paying attention to me.

You're right about the double-tap, that's definitely going to be a tactic, because I really want to see how far I can take an Immortality Blind function in terms of damage mitigation, but I think that her 2 is going to have far more utility in its current state than you give it credit for. Even when you're invisible, enemies will blind-fire at you, but if they're shooting at something else entirely, that's a decent survival function.

What I was talking about in my comment is that it doesn't matter how much damage it can deal, or even that it can deal damage to enemies around with those flares, it it's not killing enemies in less than a second, then you're at the point where their damage can do the same to you. And even using this in the air won't help that tactic because enemies will blind-fire in the direction of damage if it's sustained, plus it's not exactly a stealthy ability.

As I pointed out in an earlier comment, unless its initial damage numbers are high enough to stand up to Sortie level enemies (to kill them before they can shoot back), you'll start using it and you will die using it before a crowd of the enemy do. But if it is high enough to do that, then it's a low-level nuke that people will just steer around rooms like old Ember and ruin even their own fun.

Every single time DE introduce an ability like this, it walks that line. Wisp does not have any sustained way (like Revenant does) to mitigate damage while using this function. You can jump and turn invisible, but without your Aim Glide you fall to the floor again in only a second or so. Revenant also has a movement function while using his ability and Wisp apparently does not.

She will have all the problems of this type of ability and none of the advantages to make it work.

Oh, haha, I wouldn't be a theorycrafter worth my salt if I didn't see the loopholes designed into every portion of abilities. Though it is a big assumption, DE is incredibly bad at balancing scaling abilities. Or, to cut to the chase, any ability that scales will vastly outperform abilities that do not. A simple example is the difference between just the damage tic of Ember's World on Fire Vs the damage tic of Equinox's Maim. Though it doesn't appear to scale it relies on damage that ignores armor. Though admittedly not nearly as effective as proportionally scaling up in damage vs higher level enemies, it maintains an effect that remains useful on enemies like grineer to begin with, and lasts longer in endurance runs because of it. Now I'm not saying these abilities are anywhere near balanced, but simply the fact that enemies armor increases against one and not the other, one has a built in scaling mechanic. Of course that's not to say there aren't significantly better examples of scaling, such as melee combo meter, spore infection level, Nidus's mutation. It's that these are so far above and beyond base damage of abilities modified only by power strength, that it is actually pointless to compare abilities without it.

We theorycrafters for example, are quite fond of Khora. Sure spiderkitty is a weird theme, but her 1 scales so absurdly that it outpaces most abilities in the game. Beyond an exalted version of the whip, this does what that never could: fix the loss of Acolyte mods. Even without the augment, she can increase base damage of her whip by 100%, slap a whole room full of people prenerf Atterax style, and it scales with the combo meter. This lets her outpace some crazy contenders even in damage, let alone survivability, even if they have one of the best Exalted weapons themselves. 

First I'll hit Wisps 2, then I'll check out her 4. For her 2? Sure, it's a decoy. In all it's glory. Causing enemies to shoot this, sure, will increase your survivability while it lasts. Guess my concern is currently we have Decoys/Molts/Dualities that don't disappear when they crash into a wall at high speed. Or a slightly higher piece of terrain. Or for no discernible reason perhaps due to collision detection. My chief worry is that the decoy ability doesn't actually do that job very well, and has 3 other abilities slapped on it to compensate. Any one of the abilities hidden in the decoy would actually be more desirable: a point and click teleport, a radial blind, or a near invulnerability window. The reliance on what is (I promise) going to be the shortest lived decoy in the game to do any of these things drags it down. For the record I inherently like the decoy ability, while thinking decoys on a stealth based frame should not alert enemies in the current version of stealth. It ruins stealth. I will fully admit that 2 has a lot of good, but like most abilities it is going to be used for it's most reliable purpose. Anything that doesn't just "happen" because of using it like that, will be ignored. 

So her 4. Now it wont take much effort to make this scale absurdly. Even increasing by as little as 500 dps will outpace most abilities in a couple of seconds. If they choose to do some other mathematical gymnastics, like increasing by a percentage of enemy hp, the ability will be a new gold standard. Damage numbers in this game largely happen "by accident" rather than intent by the designers. We exploit every ounce of effectiveness in a build, and discard the unwieldyy. Any amount of "scaling" will increase with ability power, it always does. Relying on this increasing even an impressive 2000 damage, an average for 4th ability nukes, is laughable. Rarely is an enemy killed with 2700 damage but lives with 2000 damage. However, if one is increasing a base damage of a much higher number, the effectiveness gained by that ability power is far greater. Against level 100 enemies even an increase of 10% of their hp/s in orders of magnitude higher than that. Okay, so weapons should always do better, but abilities like this are getting close. They are reliably closing the TTK gap between <lv30 enemies and >lv30 enemies. The hidden fun of her 4 is unconfirmed, though. From screenshot frames of the demonstration it appears to be proccing radiation. Including screenshot below, credit @Madway7. If this is the case then rest assured it will be the best nuke in the game. This will cause enemies to attack and aggro each other as long as presumably you have hit them with either the beam, or a "homing solar flare". This is Nyx's whole theme slapped carelessly as an afterthought on an ability that everyone is complaining is just another 4 to win nuke. Yeah, it is, but with an insurance policy.

Spoiler

rad.png

 

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5 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Is it so bad that a frame does damage? Is it so bad that frame lacks utility? I ask these cause I really need to know why people are so mad over a frame that is not out yet. You know that frames are their own style of gameplay right? Much less of what it used to be in the past, frames today are more freeform in their usage and play style coming with their own mini game of sorts. I feel as though, and I say this with respect, many min maxers, i myself am one to an extent, just do not have fun with th game anymore.

--SNIP--

The whole point im trying to make is that people are missing the essence of what warframe is. The warframes themselves. I played Nezha when he was "bad" and yet I never felt like he was bad at all. Sure i made post on the forum to ket some QoL things done but other than that i loved him deeply and played him because he was fun for me. I feel people have lost that thought. Warframe is not about having fun anymore. It is about how good a frame is and that to me is highly detrimental. But hey thats my two cents take it as you will

So this deserves a big rebuttal here. While the points individually made for those warframes in question could deserve their own threads, and already have multiple. To these points simply in general. Every Warframe should do damage of some sort. Every Warframe should have utility of some sort. So yes, it is quite bad if they only do damage and have no utility. No Warframe currently fits this description for good reason. Some are overly focused on damage (Ember) some are overly focused on utility (Vauban), but even these extremes have their counterpart in at least one ability. Ember can stun enemies with her 2, Vauban can do damage with his 1/4. This is not to say that someone cannot be particularly good at a strategy, or have some thematic specialization. It is very important that they do not just do one job very well to the exclusion of others. I've said it many times and I'm about to sit behind a table with the banner across the front :"Warframes should be a jack of all trades, then a master of one. Prove me wrong."

So the essence of Warframe can be described better: "I ran my starting Excalibur through every mission on the Starchart. In every situation I could re mod to face any challenge efficiently, and while it was difficult sometimes to do spy missions, they were not impossible." I don't like anything about Excalibur except his specter mechanics on Umbra. He was my starter frame back when he had super jump. People should still have this choice. It should be irrelevant as to which mission you are going into whether you need to change the character you are using. It needs to apply to all Warframes. In fact, what is ironic, is your own argument comes to this conclusion, but from a different path. Sure none of Nezha's abilities are the apex of their iteration. His 1 is a hillariously nerfed world on fire. His 2 is the first attempt at Wisps 2 with all the glorious popularity of use. His 3 is iron skin that you can put on allies and much more powerful before it capped at 90% damage reduction, allowing him to be one of the best invulnerability frames. His 4 is a watered down version of Excaliburs 3, which is pretty sad, and is only due to the fact that the latter is able to hit the same enemy multiple times. Yet you still used him. He was not "bad" in your mind. He could cc when neccesary, run around the map at near light speed, pull of some fun room clear at low levels, and reliably keep the squad alive. A combination no less of damage/utility, rather than an example of an extreme taken too far to the exclusion of others.

Importantly while describing the absolute necessity of utility in a kit. It's worth mentioning that it is also required to have some sort of damage. Now this may seem counterproductive, especially in the wave of the metagame focus on room clearing nuke abilities. It may seem that making effective use of utility as a necessity, rather than an afterthought of throwing millions of damage around, would be regression to the mean as far as balance between utility and damage goes. The concern is one cannot simply say a strategy is more effective, or exclude the other strategy from effectiveness entirely. This is because while I spout a good deal about these "rules" and "considerations" of design adamantly aimed at new Warframes not released, most already released Warframes have huge, widely observable problems in their abilities. Some go much further than changing a single Warframes ability. Scaling damage is a concern only because enemies scale infinitely. The design team did this to force people out of endless missions, only to cause a much deeper problem with balancing. Already weapons outdid most abilities, and this exacerbated it. Nowadays unless an ability can go well beyond the 2000 damage threshold that has been arbitrarily decided for ultimate abilities, it becomes worthless. In a world like this old champions like world on fire are replaced with new coming scaling abilities. Working against the original design of forcing people to leave when they could no longer kill enemies. Tuning numbers over and over like this is a waste of time. Instead, if one designs a well rounded kit that has an effective damage ability for when damage abilities are good, and utility abilities for when that strategy cannot work, a lot of effort can be saved redesigning kits flawed from the beginning.

Look at the Eidolons, Profit Taker, Exploiter, and the Thumpers. Even old favorites like Nullifiers, Disruptors, and Comba. The development team has been relatively transparent in the fact they want to offset the usefulness of nukes that can simply wipe out an entire spawn set of enemies. In these scenarios it doesn't matter if you have the best room clear in the game, they are unaffected by it. Even CC, which has largely been overshadowed in terms of effectiveness, is unreliable. What abilities will survive this transition are not those that clear a whole room with a button press, or prevent the whole room from moving at all. It is abilities that add effectiveness to the viable strategy, in these cases, weapon damage. Since such a concerted effort is being made to change the battlefield from something a little less extreme than Dynasty Warriors with guns, it is necessary that something is not reliant on the ability to lock-down or kill an entire room to be considered effective. 

People are often complaining about these enemies or encounters in general, because they are so contradictory to the rest of the game in design. We are in fact used to everything bowing at the Majesty of our abilities. When an enemy is simply unaffected by anything that a warframe brings, then what becomes important is how well it can survive. This scenario is so begging for a "rip the bandage off" kind of fix because this slow burn just causes players to play what is necessary, rather than what they want. Out of left field for example, if they changed molecular prime (Nova's 4) to a buff on allies that doubles their damage, slows/speeds up enemies while they do so, and causes them to explode in the same way when killed, the ability is virtually identical. The difference would be in these fights she would still provide the team with double damage, a far cry from multipliers possessed by the likes of Chroma and ilk. It is no fun for abilities to work differently in these situations, and is often balance destroying.

All this to say that of course, it is necessary for every Warframe to have a reliable damage-dealing ability. Every Warframe needs utility abilities beyond damage, and beyond crowd control. It may not seem so on the surface but it is a balance requirement embedded deeper than even status effect procs. There will be a time, multiple likely, when the Metagame changes. When it does many Warframes will lose the usefulness of, lets say a genre, of abilities. If that is their only "thing", they have been "nerfed to the ground". Fundamentally, we need to make sure a redesign pass isn't required for every Warframe every time a balance decision is made for the game. To do this, we give each a perfectly reliable ability of each type, even if it ultimately banishes the notion of Utility Warframe, or Damage Warframe. 

Since its been a few pages, and since once again it seems forum moderation breaks links. Here are the two different posts whereby I design kits for Wisp with respect of fundamental design concerns. Both represent a themed, and in each case specialized Warframe. In the first case here is my take on a well designed stealth warframe. Rather than being forced to stay in stealth permanently, it has the capability of vastly buffing ally damage and providing healing/energy utility through the ult:

Ghost Wisp Version

 

In the second version, as per request by @Datam4ss, I designed a light themed damage based Warframe:

 

Master of Light Wisp

Even in this version, which totally ignores staples of stealth in favor of much more agressive tactics, still begs the question of each abilities effectiveness given undesirable scenarios. In each case, even while all are designed to add damage in some way, care is taken to make sure that it will remain effective in every fight from a lowly Crewman, to the Expoiter. It does so by realizing that even the highest damage dealing abilities cannot compete with weapons, unless they are based off weapons themselves. It does so by making sure enemies cannot be blanket immune to her efforts, even if the enemy cannot be affected by abilities. It does so by realizing a properly designed press it to kill button doesn't need a partner in a kit. 

 

Either one of these, though I am strongly in favor of the thematic flavor of the first, would be a better kit mechanically. Bandaiding an improper mechanic like her totems is the very tip of the iceberg and remains simply the most obvious concern. So much more is wrong with the kit. Though this could easily be said about the vast majority of Warframes, starting out broken because the game at large remains in a state of broken balance is unfortunate, and the way of at least Khora, if not others more recently. Eventually DE largely fixed Khora mechanically, though her reputation remains stained. I'd still wager she has a long way to go before an ideal kit, but it was obvious from the beginning her abilities could not remain as they were. 

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Im personally still much more in favor of a stealth based Wisp... And I thought that that was gonne be what we got since I saw her design (floating ghost) and companion weapon (scout rifle/smg with optional silencer?)

I also made my own take on a ghost themed warframe https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1081235-wisp-reviewearly-feedback/?do=findComment&comment=10669229

My take was based on a new take on stealth, debuffing, CC and life draining (since the idea of a ghost eating life force or souls seemed appealing)

However... I would be happy with almost anything besides her current kit relying on deployable buff altars, which they JUST started reworking Vauban for beingoverly reliant on (immobile deployables that is)

Edited by Sekan
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17 minutes ago, Sekan said:

Im personally still much more in favor of a stealth based Wisp... And I thought that that was gonne be what we got since I saw her design (floating ghost) and companion weapon (scout rifle/smg with optional silencer?)

I also made my own take on a ghost themed warframe https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1081235-wisp-reviewearly-feedback/?do=findComment&comment=10669229

My take was based on a new take on stealth, debuffing, CC and life draining (since the idea of a ghost eating life force or souls seemed appealing)

However... I would be happy with almost anything besides her current kit relying on deployable buff altars, which they JUST started reworking Vauban for beingoverly reliant on (immobile deployables that is)

I honestly liked yours, especially the flavor. I felt there was a good amount of overlap with my design and ultimately you were more ambitious in systems that weren't already present. Ultimately we both ended up describing a stealth frame that utilized possession to effectiveness in both stealth and endless missions. You much better described how something like possession would work, I simply took for granted that basically what you described is how I imagined it would work. You took care to make sure she provided team benefits even outside of herself, and kept abilities from being requisite of each other. Yours would as well be a better choice than the originally proposed kit. There are fundamental differences and trade offs.

We have vastly different opinions on the power level of possession. To me it would be a nice utility that can be used to avoid detection primarily, and going Rambo second. Indeed I hardly see why keeping the possessed target alive would be worth much, perhaps a good reason why I made it her 1. Your teleport is vastly more user friendly. Mine is totally wrapped in reaching a target like Ash's or Loki's. By your description not only could you teleport to a location of choice, but would end it in stealth. Impressive. Since it would be nice to see Hydroid's pool used as an effective stealth mechanic, I like it. I big time think that if she is alerting enemies it should be by killing them outright. This is because the stealth affinity mechanics stop it's gravy train if you alert something and then kill it, even if no alarms occur. Your debuff alerting vs mine un alerting is a big trade off in terms of stealth effectiveness. Our numbers irrelevant. Your stealth is cool, admittedly I'm more fond of damage not alerting than otherwise. Doesn't really have a precedent in game so I like it. I heavily relied on the passive, which I saw as allowing a more feet off the ground approach that rewarded mobility chiefly. 

Then the elephant, I left in her original 4 relatively unchanged. I felt using as many assets that were already present in some form in the game would make it easier for the development team to ultimately implement the changes. I took care to avoid mechanics unused, as admittedly did you. I had a slot left for what I have mentioned multiple times as an absolute necessity, a damage ability in a kit that had very little to do with damage. I was impressed by the aesthetics, but not the flavor of the original. Changing it by adding health and energy restore, increasing the damage against a target you had possessed, and absorbing conspicuous enemy bodies felt like the right nudge. It made a reason why a stealth frame would have any business nuking a room as per flavor, and mechanically ensuring it's viability by attaching utility effects that would survive if the damage was effectively removed. To me, this is where yours suffers the most. There isn't much a response in survival outside of invisibly draining enemies which immediately loses effectiveness if the damage is removed, and due to the ratio of enemy damage vs enemy health, multipliers would have to be pretty high to make possession damage worth it, and then unfortunately continue to scale directly proportionally with enemy level. As enemies get higher level, their resistances increase much faster than their damage, admittedly both our possession abilities would have to account for it. 

All in all, we are like minded. Yours represents a knowledge of effective abilities and synergistic combinations within the kit and beyond. Both would play quite similarly, with mine airborne more often and yours in the architecture. We are talking the difference between wraiths and poltergeists here, both acceptable analogs of wisp.    

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13 minutes ago, F8ted said:

Then the elephant, I left in her original 4 relatively unchanged. I felt using as many assets that were already present in some form in the game would make it easier for the development team to ultimately implement the changes. I took care to avoid mechanics unused, as admittedly did you. I had a slot left for what I have mentioned multiple times as an absolute necessity, a damage ability in a kit that had very little to do with damage. I was impressed by the aesthetics, but not the flavor of the original. Changing it by adding health and energy restore, increasing the damage against a target you had possessed, and absorbing conspicuous enemy bodies felt like the right nudge. It made a reason why a stealth frame would have any business nuking a room as per flavor, and mechanically ensuring it's viability by attaching utility effects that would survive if the damage was effectively removed. To me, this is where yours suffers the most. There isn't much a response in survival outside of invisibly draining enemies which immediately loses effectiveness if the damage is removed, and due to the ratio of enemy damage vs enemy health, multipliers would have to be pretty high to make possession damage worth it, and then unfortunately continue to scale directly proportionally with enemy level. As enemies get higher level, their resistances increase much faster than their damage, admittedly both our possession abilities would have to account for it.     

This is just as a response to damage scaling. My idea for the life drain mechanic is that it will used a fixed % of an enemies health, regardless of defences. if we say it drains 10% pr second (an arbitrary number), and an enemy has 20 health, it would then drain 2 health pr second. If that enemy instead had 10000 health, it would drain 1000 pr second. The idea being that the damage would "scale" by ignoring enemy health numbers and defences, and just putting a timer on them until they die. A timer which weapons or allies abilities would obviously speed up. In general I like the idea that she plays with life force, and has ways of using enemy HP pools as a tool. As with her "deactivation" of her 4th ability. I dont feel like a 1-ability kill is a problem in warframe (ash's teleport with covert lethality?), so that's why I baked a potential 100% hp damage into the 4th ability. With the possibility of this causing an AoE explosion dealing scaling damage due to enemies simply having more health to "explode with" at higher levels.

I decided to fully change her 4th ability simply for the reason that I would love to see it used on someone where it fits and would shine a lot more... like ember or a sun-based shaman warframe 😛

But yes I do think we had similar goals in mind. I would be more than happy to play your iteration as well. The black hole vibe of your version of her 4th seems like it would be great fun to use both at low and high levels of play 🙂

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Hey, you make some good points, but you also kind of miss what I'm going for here.

In your other comments you described a stealth Wisp, which... I don't know if that's necessary, but some of the ideas were okay. Although you have kind of missed a problem with some of the ideas around possession... I won't get into those.

My comment on Wisp's current 4, though, isn't about whether it scales or not, it's about the question of why she has the ability in this style in the first place. And that I don't, in all honesty, believe that it fits with any of her other abilities and the fact that none of the shown abilities actually seem to support her having this.

8 hours ago, F8ted said:

So her 4. Now it wont take much effort to make this scale absurdly.

This is kind of what I was saying was a bad thing about it. There's not much that would be needed to make it scale, true. There's not much that's needed to make it suck, also true.

That's the problem. It's one of those abilities that's either over, or under powered and that the balance point is so ridiculously fine that it shouldn't be walked at all.

Moreover it's not it being a damage ability that's the problem here, it's that it's a locked animation that you steer around and point at the enemy until they die or you run out of energy, all while you have precisely zero ways to mitigate incoming damage from sources that you're not shooting, because as proven by frames like Nyx, the Confusion status still allows for enemies near you to shoot you. On top of that, are those flares limited by an actual range? Because they're certainly limited by travel time, and I've seen caster frames die in a much shorter time than it took those flares to hit something.

This ability puts the frame in a glass-cannon state, which would be fine if you were only facing a single target, or a short corridor of targets, but in Warframe you aren't, there's always a free Bombard Rocket arcing in, there's always another trooper shooting from cover, there's always another Sapper Orb about to land and another sniper at range, another Mutalist about to hit you with the goop or a toxin cloud, or something. And while firing off that laser, there's nothing she can do about those. The other frames that do this, that have a locked animation, all have some way to mitigate this, either with damage reduction abilities, straight up invulnerability, or having it be a wide-range radial effect instead.

Taken in isolation, her current 4 is not a bad damage dealer. Taken as a Warframe, her current 4 is diametrically opposed to the shown 1, 2 and 3, because it lets her use/get the benefits of none of them (barring the small buffs from her 1 if she's already placed them).

Further, if she already has a radial damage ability that she can place a source for with 1 and trigger at any range on her 3, why is her 4 just more damage? That 3 could be amazing, if you give her a better version and the ability to scale that damage a little. This would free up her 4 to be something way better, that benefits a whole team, one that allows the whole team to kill faster and affects enemies in a consistent mechanical fashion to play into the damage of her 3.

As a theory crafter, what would I be doing if I didn't consider how her current 4 has no basic synergy (unlike the forced synergy of her current 1/3 combo, both of which I also want to change...) at all? Not even with basic movement, because it's a locked animation...

I've never said that her 4 would be bad at dealing damage, I've said that the type of 4 they've given her is bad for her as a frame. It was on Garuda, it pretty much is on Revenant too even though he has an invulnerability function, and even Hildryn's 4 would be better if there were no fixed animation lock making her hover around, if she could run and parkour with Aegis Storm (even if she was still locked into using Balefire instead of regular weapons) the ability would be downright OP as balls...

Animation lock is just not a good mechanic for any frame ^^

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Hey, you make some good points, but you also kind of miss what I'm going for here.

In your other comments you described a stealth Wisp, which... I don't know if that's necessary, but some of the ideas were okay. Although you have kind of missed a problem with some of the ideas around possession... I won't get into those.

My comment on Wisp's current 4, though, isn't about whether it scales or not, it's about the question of why she has the ability in this style in the first place. And that I don't, in all honesty, believe that it fits with any of her other abilities and the fact that none of the shown abilities actually seem to support her having this.

This is kind of what I was saying was a bad thing about it. There's not much that would be needed to make it scale, true. There's not much that's needed to make it suck, also true.

That's the problem. It's one of those abilities that's either over, or under powered and that the balance point is so ridiculously fine that it shouldn't be walked at all.

Moreover it's not it being a damage ability that's the problem here, it's that it's a locked animation that you steer around and point at the enemy until they die or you run out of energy, all while you have precisely zero ways to mitigate incoming damage from sources that you're not shooting, because as proven by frames like Nyx, the Confusion status still allows for enemies near you to shoot you. On top of that, are those flares limited by an actual range? Because they're certainly limited by travel time, and I've seen caster frames die in a much shorter time than it took those flares to hit something.

This ability puts the frame in a glass-cannon state, which would be fine if you were only facing a single target, or a short corridor of targets, but in Warframe you aren't, there's always a free Bombard Rocket arcing in, there's always another trooper shooting from cover, there's always another Sapper Orb about to land and another sniper at range, another Mutalist about to hit you with the goop or a toxin cloud, or something. And while firing off that laser, there's nothing she can do about those. The other frames that do this, that have a locked animation, all have some way to mitigate this, either with damage reduction abilities, straight up invulnerability, or having it be a wide-range radial effect instead.

Taken in isolation, her current 4 is not a bad damage dealer. Taken as a Warframe, her current 4 is diametrically opposed to the shown 1, 2 and 3, because it lets her use/get the benefits of none of them (barring the small buffs from her 1 if she's already placed them).

Further, if she already has a radial damage ability that she can place a source for with 1 and trigger at any range on her 3, why is her 4 just more damage? That 3 could be amazing, if you give her a better version and the ability to scale that damage a little. This would free up her 4 to be something way better, that benefits a whole team, one that allows the whole team to kill faster and affects enemies in a consistent mechanical fashion to play into the damage of her 3.

As a theory crafter, what would I be doing if I didn't consider how her current 4 has no basic synergy (unlike the forced synergy of her current 1/3 combo, both of which I also want to change...) at all? Not even with basic movement, because it's a locked animation...

I've never said that her 4 would be bad at dealing damage, I've said that the type of 4 they've given her is bad for her as a frame. It was on Garuda, it pretty much is on Revenant too even though he has an invulnerability function, and even Hildryn's 4 would be better if there were no fixed animation lock making her hover around, if she could run and parkour with Aegis Storm (even if she was still locked into using Balefire instead of regular weapons) the ability would be downright OP as balls...

Animation lock is just not a good mechanic for any frame ^^

Well since you might have more insightful criticism about possession than "it's no good because ghosts suck", it kind of makes me 😞 Nonetheless, I see your point as far as channeled abilities go. In general, as a theorycrafter I hate them. While I realize they have given her a combination of Radial Blind and Adaptation in a decoy ability, stealth when she jumps, and confusion procs when she breathes, enemies are a wily bunch. Now a lot of your comments seem to assume she cannot just also be wily and dodge some missiles and step out of sapper orbs, but some validly do propose that enemies exist and by sitting locked in an animation, even while mobile, can be a deadly level of inconvenient. Since one cannot simply shoot, use abilities, or perhaps even jump, a lot of the toolbox is lost. It's true that in every situation removing the animation would make the ability far more powerful. To accommodate we could imagine the effect emanating in whatever way from her belly, and allow the full scope of movement. Would this even allow the same use of the ability? Well no. You could only target things that you were shooting at or meleeing. It would turn it into some permanently on version of Exalted Blade's damage waves, that didn't scale with combo counter. 

Now I'm not saying you are proposing something preposterous like that. In fact, if reading your preferences it seems you believe in the viability of her 3. Now again I have nothing against a point blank area of effect ability. Some of the "best" abilities in the game are press 4 to release a 50m burst of death centered on yourself. I'm not worried about having the scaling room wiping ability being on a Warframe's 3 instead of their 4. That seems to cost 25 less energy. My concern is that with some notable exceptions, like say Nidus's 1, abilities with good nuking throughput are not often found less than 100 energy. Even then those are hit and miss. Some like Crush are absolutely crippled by the lock in animation, while others like Soundquake get better when you stay in the animation. Even in strange situations, like Peacekeeper, it can be beneficial to have a more focused shooting area to deal with priority targets.

Would I be happier if Wisp was more well known for a weird copy of fire blast instead of a super laser? Probably not. Especially since you also seem to favor the synergy of her currently proposed 1 and her currently proposed 3. To answer the question why is her 4 better when you can cast her 1 to aim her 3 then cast her 3. <-----Right there. That's 100 energy. To go through an animation to throw a buff at the enemy. Then go through an animation to use your 3. When you are complaining about being locked into a single animation you can simply aim at any point when you use that. Let's actually imagine what it would look like if you smashed her 1 into her 3. Kind of like they smashed Loki's 2, Excaliburs 2, and Nezha's 2 into her 2. In this case we get an ability that radiates damage from yourself, radiates damage at the first surface impacted, and can spend more energy to repeat this process, assuming necessary. Throw a buff you and your team can pick up where the enemy dies and you even see some of Titania come out in her kit. Except that..... is the description..... of her 4. Barring that you have to repeat the animations rather than being locked into them. Even if it scales.... Why?

 

A postscript answer: because you can actually regenerate energy during repeated casts and not channeled abilities. Something that has not escaped me, even from the beginning. The biggest difference between repeating animations and channeling an ability is the fact that you cannot regenerate energy via Energy Siphon, Zenurik school, or Energy Restores. Since this inherently would benefit a quick press nuke disproportionately relative to a channeled nuke, each iteration in my designs included the line: restores health and energy to nearby allies. This offsets the fact that she cannot regenerate through other means, but hell sounds like we are arguing about what other designers have made. 

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On 2019-04-06 at 2:40 AM, ShikiRen said:

So, just saw the Wisp ability reveal and I have to ask : DE, are you even capable of learning from past mistakes?

So uh, one thing just wanna remind u real quick

DE ain't EA, DE listen to us, EA don't.

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3 hours ago, Sekan said:

This is just as a response to damage scaling. My idea for the life drain mechanic is that it will used a fixed % of an enemies health, regardless of defences. if we say it drains 10% pr second (an arbitrary number), and an enemy has 20 health, it would then drain 2 health pr second. If that enemy instead had 10000 health, it would drain 1000 pr second. The idea being that the damage would "scale" by ignoring enemy health numbers and defences, and just putting a timer on them until they die. A timer which weapons or allies abilities would obviously speed up. In general I like the idea that she plays with life force, and has ways of using enemy HP pools as a tool. As with her "deactivation" of her 4th ability. I dont feel like a 1-ability kill is a problem in warframe (ash's teleport with covert lethality?), so that's why I baked a potential 100% hp damage into the 4th ability. With the possibility of this causing an AoE explosion dealing scaling damage due to enemies simply having more health to "explode with" at higher levels.

I decided to fully change her 4th ability simply for the reason that I would love to see it used on someone where it fits and would shine a lot more... like ember or a sun-based shaman warframe 😛

But yes I do think we had similar goals in mind. I would be more than happy to play your iteration as well. The black hole vibe of your version of her 4th seems like it would be great fun to use both at low and high levels of play 🙂

Oh I am sorry I didn't intend to mean your ability would fall off, or not scale, when I said "draining enemies which immediately loses effectiveness if the damage is removed". I litterally meant to account for scenarios whereby enemies like Thumpers, Eidolons, Bosses and their ilk prevent ability damage. I was being incredibly, though unfortunately vaguely, pedantic about a paradox needing to exist. A damage ability that is useful when a damage ability cannot do damage. Now it perhaps wasnt fair to hold you to such a standard when frankly DE cannot be held to the same standard. Even further while admittedly stealth has very little to do with offense, it is still a unique utility worthwhile when the damage portion of the ability is rendered moot. 

Also when used properly I don't mind an instant kill, especially if they are vulnerable to covert lethality. Like Stinging Thorn + Covert Lethality works on everyone, and is only slightly more frustrating to pull off with the new melee system. Now again, and since I am in agreement with like 99.9999% of what you are saying, our perceptions of the effectiveness of the actual possession effect must be vastly different. I see it being very hard to make this anything more than a gimmick outside of some highly exploitable situations like Ancient Healers, or Bursas. Even so I like, don't think that has to be the thing of possession. Like your explosion on cancel I felt it may be a useful ability to focus an intermediate level target like a heavy gunner while largely using her abilities to actually be effective. I put all this on my version's 1 for example. Feeling a fleeting 25 energy should separate you from your vessel, not 100. Granted, you possess everything, not just people, so perhaps the option is worth the distinction. 

Definitely feel her 4 is a little too flashy. I'd take it over world on fire currently, but hell, I have so much denial wrapped up in my Ember that I'm self proccing fire with a thrown weapon to boost my power strength. I wouldn't mind seeing my second redesign see reality. The same care was put into balancing it, no longer truly worried about stealth, but I still felt it would have been out of place for her looks. I wouldn't even feel comfortable having it be an Ember remake, as she deserves some homage to her initial form. I am not happy about some hoops that I jump through in this game, hence this discussion. I am already prepared with any mod/strategy to make Wisp usable in whichever form she drops in. Particularly I would like to see how crazy long I can keep her airborne.  

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