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ShikiRen

Wisp Review/Early feedback

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XB1)GearsMatrix301:

I was hoping for a ghost frame too, but then they described her as some sort of inter dimension portal space being and I was interested, and then next to none of her abilities had to do with portals. So yeah Wisp is in a very rough place in trying to get people interested rn as she is a contradiction of a contradiction of an expectation.

You didn't mention how much you dislike rev in your post.. 

--

On topic: I.. I was hoping for her to replace my Nova but.. meh.. idk man deployables are so.. early 2000's.. it's just not fun to me.. her 2.. should be the first ability to get in line with 'almost every 1st is useless' .. her 3.. is really.. it hurts to say but.. boring.. and I did not expect her 4 to be a laser beam.. all in all, yh.. I'm kinda disappointed.. mostly with this deployables nonsense.. at Vauban talk they said they're out of place for this game and in the next scene they show wisp off with them.. kinda weird 

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1 - This ability looks fine. The buff it gave out actually seemed pretty good. I was especially glad that the healing had a pretty good rate. But, staying as Mobile as you need to in Warframe is a concern I have seen people voice about this ability.

Initial Verdict - I think as long as the Durations are sufficiently long (and if you have the ability to recast reservoirs instead of going back to old ones) I think it will work out alright on mobility.

 

2 - I was concerned about this ability until I found out that it has more going on than I thought. The fact that you get a Radial Blind and brief invulnerability on Teleport actually puts this in a pretty solid position. However, if teleporting to this is even going to be a part of the ability, it probably needs to travel faster. Otherwise, I don't really see a point in using this for Mobility. Also I think the aggro draw needs to be sufficient.

Initial Verdict - The Clone should probably travel 1.5-2x faster than it currently does. The Aggro needs to be at least on par with Saryn's Molt. And of course, the Radial Blind needs to have sufficient Duration and Range to be useful.

 

3 - This ability is really concerning. If it only pulses damage, I almost can't see a situation where this works out. If it's strong enough to kill at High Levels against armor just by spamming, then people would complain that it's lazy and OP. On the other hand, if it's the usual couple Thousand damage like Stomp, Reckoning, or Avalanche, then it will only be a low level nuke. We're past that in this game for new Warframes. I think I might have heard something about the effect of the pulses depending on the type of reservoir. In that case, it may not only be a basic damage ability. But if it just gives you the same effect as the already existing buffs, that seems a bit redundant.

Initial Verdict - This ability may need to be completely replaced similarly to the way that they replaced Revenant and Garuda's old Ultimate abilities. I doubt anyone would mourn that change. This just doesn't really fit at all. Though if it has to stay, it would need to either have very well balanced Damage, or some other useful effect.

 

4 - This ability is promising, yet also concerning. It looks really cool. It has the potential to be a good DPS ability. But, it also might be really lazy, slow, restrictive, and just bad for Damage. On the Devstream, it appeared really slow, which might be more dangerous to you than useful. It also appears that you can't use your parkour or other actions in this. It's also yet another of those abilities where you just sit there, making it probably pretty lazy. We don't know yet if the damage will scale either. If it's not as good as a normal gun, why use it?

Initial Verdict - I think maybe they should rethink this to function more as an exalted weapon. The sun portal animation could just float there similarly to Garuda's Heart, allowing you to use parkour. Then the actual beam could activate on Primary fire, only restricting your movement then. Also, I feel like giving this access to Weapon Mods is the way to go. I know Pablo said something about it just scaling up as you fire, but that still sounds like a risk not worth taking. I say better to go with the tried-and-true weapon mod system. Also, the flares that come off of it should probably be at least on par with the Range of the Ocucor. The flares seemed pretty short on stream. If they don't have good range, this is kind of just a basic beam weapon.

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1 hour ago, unrealityCatalyst said:

Ohhh, no, I get that Will-o-Wisps are fire spirits. Even then, with how she's being presented, the idea of her being a fire spirit just doesn't show at all. Besides with her four, but even then, she could literally open up a portal anywhere she wanted, so why the sun in specific? I figured having her one and three being presented as Will-o-Wisps would push more the spirit aspect more than the fire aspect.

Well her three already seems to look like fire damage. 

Her 1 works because in the spiritual sense, fire is more about life and the variety of life. Will-o-Wisps are just condensed energy, and the energy causes things to catch on fire. Her one is summoning various forms of life/energy to buff/augment her. 

Her three just makes those energies burst. 

Why the sun? Because it's the biggest source of energy / fire that's near us. Also the sun does more than just thermal damage. It has a lot of radiation, and wisp's abilities seem to do more than just thermal(fire) damage. 

She can already transport herself via her 2, so that's another use / form of a brief wormhole.

 

In a spiritual sense, fire isn't just about burning things or destruction. Thematically, fire is originally more about life and spirituality and passion. Fire/the sun also represents a coming of spring/summer. (Though tbh, I'm not sure if this is the direction DE is taking, I'm just explaining how it *could* make sense)

 

Ember only caters to the thermal destruction of fire (Via Superheated air) because thematically, she suffered severe burn injuries while trying to save others. 

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Will-o-Wisps could be seen/described as quiet, but intense concentrations of energy & life. It's sort of like the ghostly/gothic/quiet side of life/spring and nature. 

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While I agree that she needs some more polish I don't think your ideas fair any better.  I completely disagree with calling her the next "Revenant."  Because her kit makes much more sense compared to his.  He was toted as a vampire frame and then forced to be sentient.  Whisp was never directly stated to be Ghost/specter themed.  Nor does she visually look like such.  From the beginning she's looked more like a mysterious entity.  Like a creepy space alien but with some aspects that make her look...inviting.  The one word the devs have used to describe her is "portals."  And that she's essentially interacting with her own dimension with her abilities.

From a gameplay perspective I feel her abilities fit this.  Her passive and when she casts her decoy mechanically makes her invisible.  But visually it's like she's phasing herself out of our reality into hers, partially.  Her buffs look to have the same sort of texture her skin has indicating they come from her dimension.  And she uses her ability to bend her dimension to aim the sun at people.  So yeah.  That doesn't mean I don't think they can improve her visuals to better represent her theme.  They absolutely can.  But to say there is some kind of thematic clash going on akin to Revenant is just false.

Ability wise it's hard to judge, the abilities were not final.  The devs said themselves that her abilities would have more synergy and effects.  So don't take what we saw as final representation.  For instance, her 1 has 2 things going on that were not present.  The first being that the buffs themselves have an AoE of their effect.  Meaning you don't need to pick them up to be effected by them.  The second being that whatever wave comes out of the buffs VIA her 3 will have a different effect (on top of damage) depending on what buff it was coming from.  Her 4 actually does more damage the longer it's held on a target.  Confirmed via a tweet.

My current major problem with her is the way you cast her 1.  It's very similar to Vaubans mineslayer and that method of casting cramps my hand if done repeatedly.  Her passive works in tandum with the fact that she's invisible when her decoy is active.  Meaning you can very easily misdirect with her decoy and then fly out with her passive to get to safety.  The decoy itself stuns,blinds, and whisp herself becomes invulnerable briefly when she teleports to it.  So the ability itself is already very solid and doesn't need to be touched.  Her 3 being 100% dependent on her 1 scares me.  I'm hoping that can be changed some how.

And her 4 seems fine.  We just have to see how strong the ramping damage is and how quickly it ramps.  And if either of those are effected by mods.  It makes her vulnerable as a channeled ability.  But if the ramp is quick then it might not be so bad.  Though I would like to see some secondary effect to it.  Like enemies near the aoe of the beam can become blinded.  And maybe give it some synergy with shooting your own decoy or your totem buffs.

 

Revenant has a core gameplay loop built in his kit.  Make thralls to kill thralls.  But this loop is neither fun nor engaging.  It's just not really worth it.  And that's his problem.  Whisp's kit doesn't have a gameplay loop.  Instead it's more focused on organic play.  The abilities are what you make of them.  Her 1/3 scream tactical usage with both buffs for you and allies but also effecting the enemies in a negative way.  Her passive and 3 are all about trickery/deception and is her main survival method.  And her 4 is meant to be whipped out when you use either half of her kit in order to capitalize on what you've done.

Aside from the fact that her 1/3 setup might not fit the games current pacing in all modes I don't see any inherent flaws in her kit.  I just think people are not getting her gameplay.

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If they were going to make a portal themed frame I wish it had been something like a suggestion I made a long time ago (I think anyway, I can't find it anywhere so maybe I didn't post it... but I thought there use to be a new frame suggestion sub forum that doesn't even exist so maybe it did and it was there...). 

It was based on the game Portal and the ability to make 2 connected portals on surfaces that you could see, move and shoot through. 1 and 2 made the portals. Using up two abilities just to make them I think would still be fun when you consider the various things you could do with them from shooting enemies at a distance through them, traveling through them, making enemies fall through them or the various odd physics of moving from a wall up out of a floor or down through a ceiling (the type of things you do in the game Portal(2)). 

I forget what my 3 suggestion was and my 4 suggestion was actually to make a giant death laser type beam channel through the portal, so I guess not completely unlike Wisp's 4 except that it involved using the portals you create with your 1 and 2. There was also a suggested mechanic where holding down 1 let you toggle a sort of cloaking mode for the portals so you could still see through them, but enemies couldn't and you could no longer pass or shoot through them. 

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There is a lack of proper synergy across the board with Wisp. I think her reservoirs need to be more involved with her 2 and 4 and her 3 needs to be just reworked entirely. 

Ability 1: I don't have a problem with little buff stations. But I think there should be some choice on the players part as to what buffs they can take (like how Chroma can change the damage type for his fire by its energy color). 

Ability 2: I like it. If its speed could be effected by ability strength or range that would be nice. Additionally, I think the reservoirs should begin outputting damage (like her 3 ability) when her 2 passes in their vicinity.

Ability 3: Change it... to something different. Or make it an EXTREMELY cheap ability that can be spammed and make it do some CC as well. 

Ability 4: Needs to be duration based (so that its not just a hybrid of Mesa and Revenant) and to be able to be buffed by nearby reservoirs. Or, reservoirs within X meters fire out there own smaller sun beams. Make those reservoirs important to increasing the power of her 4 and you will encourage proper placement as well as increasing that synergy.  

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2 hours ago, Pixues said:

I agree that her powers don't make sense on her:

Her 1: Could have been any generic warframe's ability. What makes this 'whisp-y'? 

Her 2: The only thing that comes close. But its not even that good of a move. Teleport to the ghost? why? mobility has never been an issue in warframe.

Her 3: Just building on her 1. 

Her 4: Looks cool by why whisp?

U know what a wisp is?

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I know I’m not the only one that was super hyped for Wisp’s abilities and was utterly disappointed by what I saw. The only ability worth keeping is the ultimate ability Sol which looks really cool but as many others have already mentioned this ability belongs on Embers kit. I am a little concerned how well this ability will perform at levels 100+ and I know that if it does really well when Wisp is released, the community will be pushing for a nerf before the end of the week. As for the other abilities, I think DE needs to go back to the drawing board and try again. With that being said, here are a few ideas that I have in mind.

The ability I was really hoping to see more than anything for Wisp was some sort of duration-based smoke dash. With this, Wisp’s body would turn into a wisp of smoke and be able to have really strong mobility around the battleground. As a wisp of smoke, Wisp would be able to travel through the air or through crowds of enemies with no problems. In this state, if wisp could perform melee finishers on enemies, that would be the icing on the cake.

Here are two quick videos that may help give a better idea of what I’m looking for with this ability:

 

 

 

The next ability for wisp would need to be some sort of CC ability like radial blind in order for Wisp to perform melee finishers with the previously mentioned ability. Yes, I know she has the decoy teleport ability that was shown on the devstream but that ability seems too finicky. Maybe Wisp could send out a wave of smoke that gets into enemy lungs and cause them to start coughing up a lung opening them up to melee finishers.

Lastly, if wisp had a better agro ability like releasing a bunch of ghostly figures that float around the battleground drawing enemy fire that would be cool. Another idea would be having a will o the wisp flame that attracts enemies towards it like Titania’s lantern ability. This would allow the enemies to group together so Wisp can fire her Sol ability at the group of enemies rather than one enemy at a time.

If you guys like any of these ideas, please let me know, or if you thought these ideas were stupid, please leave some constructive criticism. Please don't be too harsh on me!

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A rework even before a launch... Just wow.

How about we accept not every frame is meant for everyone? Accept difference? Instead of bending everything to our personal tastes?

I like Wisp and I also say: "Let her be"

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

A rework even before a launch... Just wow.

How about we accept not every frame is meant for everyone? Accept difference? Instead of bending everything to our personal tastes?

I like Wisp and I also say: "Let her be"

i havent tried it yet of course but it kinda looks all over the place imo, what do you think?

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The devs said that she's still being iterated on. I'm with you on the fact that her kit doesn't really suit her, but the devs might make decent changes before she releases. 

Remember when Garuda's kit was revealed and her 4 had you float around dealing damage? Yeah. That got changed, and I hope Wisp does to. The stream was nowhere near a final version, and the devs still have the power to make big changes at this stage. 

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Isn't it too early to be asking for a wisp rework? Lol... You haven't tried her out yet. So maybe you should wait until you play her first. 

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so everyone thought she was a spirit warframe because of how she looks, DE said that she's warframe that can open portals to summon monsters and energy from other dimensions

her kit showcased in the devstream express nothing about that, so this post-that will probably get ignored anyway- will help throw more suggestions to stick with her theme, a portal caster 

now i'm not worried about whether wisp will be strong or not, i'm just worried that she'll have an identity crisis, like revenant 

i want her first ability to act as 3 portals options 

offense: wisp opens up a portal that summons a ghostly tentacle blob with very high health pool that moves forward in the direction you were aiming...you shoot the blob and he'll launch high damage tentacles that seek out enemies, the base damage of the tentacles are 2 times the base damage of your weapon fire, 

defense:wisp opens a portal to summon a wraith with low health pool that brings all enemy aggro, if the wraith takes high damage he will launch a radial blind and disappear 

support:wisp opens a portal to the void, the portal attracts all incoming damage projectiles and release a healing overtime buff based on the damage of the projectile 

 

 

something like that...

regarding her other abilities, i have no huge problem with them, all i want is consistency with warframe themes 

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After watching the devstream reveal of wisps abilities I couldn't help but feel a little disappointed in the set up, and I believe it's safe to say I'm not alone. Perhaps my biggest complaint is it seems entirely non-cohesive thematically. Save for the fact that her proposed 3 radiates damage from her proposed 1, there seems to be little synergy between the order of use of her other abilities. Instead like a few classic designs, she will have a useful 4, her 1 will be used to add damage as fireball frenzy/freeze force/smite infusion etc and her 2 and 3 will largely be ignored. Without well overdoing the damage of her 4 relative to other warframes, she will be reliant on this buff from her 1 to make her viable. I'm not holding my breath for this possibility. Instead, I have decided to give the theme "Wisp" a go. Now I by no means have a magic wand to wave at the creative team to have them go for this, but I would definitely be more hyped for a skillset like this:

 

PASSIVE

Spectral Form Wisp is passively invisible while airborne. In addition she receives -50% gravity while in aimglide. 

Fun addition to the original. Let her float invisibly. I'd also let it stack with tractor beam, interesting synergies are fun.

 

POSSESSION

Wisp enters the target's body allowing a dark ride-along. While possessed the target retains it's previous actions/mentality. Wisp can allow her target free enterprise and avoid suspicion or can push her target into combat with their previous allies. By holding the ability while possessing, she violently erupts from the target dealing radial damage.

I had originally imagined her as more stealthy, perhaps just a hope. With this we blur the lines between mind control and prowl, allowing someone to either go about and stay hidden, or create an interesting distraction. Since the Dargyn joy rides were introduced I had often thought it would be interesting to go around as a roller, or a scorpion, osprey etc. This could be our novel introduction to that!

 

WILL-O-WISP

Wisp pushes spectral energy from her form. The energy grabs enemies curiosity, not enmity. They will investigate the light without being alerted. While in possession, the energy takes the form of her host who will fight wisp's enemies for a short duration.

Keep the ball rolling here theme-wise, add function to assets already available. Check, Check. One of the more entertaining parts of decoy and it's iterative abilities have been that they are theme-destroyingly "loud". I can see value to enemies shooting "not me" but until there is an overhaul of stealth/alert mechanics in the game, these abilities would actually hurt the stealthframes style. Like Dark Blight, just don't do it. 

 

HAUNT

Spectral energy fills the area around Wisp causing enemies to be visible through walls. Affected enemies lose alert status rapidly as the energy waylays their thoughts and concerns. Pain of targets become more severe, causing wounds to erupt with the spectral form of the source. While revealed through haunt Wisp can possess targets through the environment, traversing the distance through energy alone. 

"Portals" at least, almost. For stealth gameplay alert status of a single enemy can be disastrous, because it often leads to a room full of alerted enemies. Again no actual "stealth 'frames" have the ability to remove alert status. At all. This puts a few nice tools conveniently in a package that also offers an incentive to your team. I envision a flat(scaling per strength) chance to deal a bonus instance of the highest damage type with 100% status. Ex. the weapon dealt mostly corrosive you get a 30%+powerstrength chance to proc 150 corrosive dmg+status. Keep things interesting and fun all around.

 

CALL OF THE VOID

Wisp throws open a portal to the void absorbing all within her gaze. Enemies are swiftly drawn into the void and disintegrated, leaving no trace of their passing. As their form is shredded into the energy that fuels the Tenno themselves, nearby Warframes have their own energy/health restored in the cascade. If used while in possession, the host's body is ravaged with the absorption adding damage for each other enemy drawn in.

You guys just had to make it look that pretty. Use it, but better. Let us get rid of bodies that alert our would be prey to their doom, vacuum up our spoils, and heal our allies in missions that maybe all this stealth I've been talking about doesn't matter. In fact this just feels so much better than "Sunlol", and is virtually the same ability. 


These have been designed to do what few pull off well: a marriage of the stealth and fast paced game plays into one functional form. The devteam ought to get to stealth 3.0 soon, but this could be a "stealth 2.99999997" in such a way that does not dramatically sway the field in her favor. I've attempted only to utilize what already has assets in the game currently, whether in another ability or within Wisps proposed kit. #2 Light/Will-o-Wisp need not look any different (save for her possession effect, which could use Nekros's/Inaros's/Ballistica Prime's shadow). #4 Sol/Call of the Void simply changes theme/preserves the healing aspect of the totems, with your own style, because let's be honest we love the ability, just in an uncanny valley as proposed. She has some art going for her, she just needs a kit that both matters while avoiding "rocking the boat" in terms of balance.      

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Hey guys, thanks for responding to this post. Yes I am aware that wisp isn't out yet but the game has over 30 frames to choose from with a wide variety of abilities that help us as the end users determine if a new frames kit is going to be much help when compared to those other frames. We can use our past experiences to know how well abilities may or may not perform in game. Since the frame is still in its development stage, I'm hoping that our discussion will help keep DE from releasing another disappointing frame that nobody uses such as Titania or Wukong. 

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static deployables, the thing everyone pretty much universally hates, if not for that it would look a lot more appealing.

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1 minute ago, Methanoid said:

static deployables, the thing everyone pretty much universally hates, if not for that it would look a lot more appealing.

They would have their place, if introduced properly. As abilities they are almost universally clunky by the fast paced nature of gameplay. While sure, there is defense/excavation etc., warframe is becoming increasingly mobile. I find myself using Zephyr more often for defense based missions now because the bubble moves with me, rather than the static Frost/Gara/Limbo etc. Now that's not to say there isn't a niche for zoning, it's just a few obstacles are in the way of that. Primarily radar is under-powered vastly relative to the range of abilities that can decimate a zone. If my abilities can (Nova/Ember/Equinox) extend further than detection, there is no point to detection. I've been thinking of a few gear-related ways to fix concerns of radar/detect-ability/deployables but probably for another thread.

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I concur OP. I too feel the theme is off for your points. While we can say all we want about Will-o-Wisps in particular, no one imagines that they are the sun incarnate. Now warframe does have a habit of being well beyond the bar set by their influences, this is the elephant in the kit. Now I myself have proposed a kit change, much more thematically appropriate to ghosts and spirits that even endeavored to maintain the ultimate with a little bit of utility and theme altering. Not that I am particularly happy with any of the abilities as described on the current skin.

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Well sure, but has his own concerns. The thing I like most about stasis is it got people to be quiet about molecular prime. He does the job arguably the best, but "rocks the boat". No one wants to deal with a random Limbo, and it may not be his fault. There has been a precedent set for mobility and efficiency in warframe. We can argue all day about how it should be, "deployable" wise, but it seems the best course of action would be to avoid a mechanic that has been universally proven beyond warframe itself that these abilities are under-utilized, and unliked. No one wants to hit the lightwell/totem/healbot etc. These are all abilities that require direct action from allies to produce results, contrary to their normal gameplay. Since one cannot assume they will always have one of these abilities in their random team, they cannot prepare for it. While it is totally acceptable to hand out free health/damage/energy etc, it is not "fair" to expect someone to work for it. Chroma gives buffs for free. He will always be chosen first priority over someone you have to jump through hoops to get the same effect. Limbo being the best at forcing other people to play your strategy is not exactly a good thing.  

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From the dev stream it was very disappointing, I was confused about what they were trying to do with her. Is she a buff giver support? a stealth and distract type? room clear dps? targeted dps?

I honestly think wisps 4 (Sol beam) would be better to replace embers current 4 which is very bad.

The ideas you came up with give a better impression of her name sake, Wisp, willowisp, being spooky etc

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