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ShikiRen

Wisp Review/Early feedback

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11 hours ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

I do admit I would like to see the mechanic used as I feel it has a great potential that a lot of players simply refuse to acknowledge due to poorly implemented sets up such as Titanias' collect the buff from a single enemy in a sea of enemies who all look the same. However we have seen it collection buffs work on other frames like Octavia where you have to "collect" the buffs by preforming actions nearby. In part, it is really going to depend on the range of the vase's buffs. How close do you have to be to collect it and will vacuum aid in collection of the buffs? For smaller maps this could be a lot easer then fallowing around your entire squad like the support slave, tanks want you to be. (The ability would be the biggest boon in defense, interception and in some survival maps.) Maps where players are going to follow a pattern and move to certain locations more often then others. It doesn't seam to work too differently then when you put down any restore support items. People still have to collect those as well, and with the size of them they look pretty noticeable on the terrain so it won't just blend into the tileset. For larger maps or things like exterminate, Spy, rescue and sabotage she could easily be out shone by other frames but no frame is ment for all missions. Can they call be played on all missions types, sure but Good Ivara will outshine a good Rhino at spy, but the same Rhino can likewise outshine Ivara at Exterminate.

Okay so this is a pretty good point of comparison for a couple of my points. You can observe where you start justifying the ability for being difficult to use by describing a "Support Slave" placing these buffs in areas you presume your team will walk through, and again presume they will care to pick them up. This is a lot of presumption. Even Octavia is a perfect example: You view this as an interesting collection mechanic, satisfying your desire to have a few customizable buffs on one ability, but it is not. It is a passive point blank area of affect buff that simply works when your allies are in range. Even though there is an interesting "dance" mechanic to choose your buff, we have abused the mechanic it uses to determine how well people synchronize. Even further, it buffs what you are doing while you do it: you shoot gun to get gun buff, you jump to get movement buff, you crouch to get stealth buff. Wisp? You move to get attack buff, you move to get resistance buff, you move to get utility buff. No smart mechanic to allow people to focus on their own job, you force them to play your way. 

In addition, the last portion, is actually the most important part of this statement. Everyone needs to be able to run through the entire starchart. It would be nice if in some way everyone could be invited to fight Eidolons. While someone can outshine most of the rest in their "thing", "Specialty", "Identity" they should be able to complete any mission they face. It's not that I care, I have over 30 warframes. I can pick the best frame for every single mission. I realize not everyone has this option, and should be able to run their starter frame forever if it is their favorite. Yes this means Excalibur in spy, exterminate and sabotage. This is how it should be, especially since each warframe has 4 abilities. Many abilities are in need of help, and is likely the way to achieve this goal. 

11 hours ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

Having the option to control your personal buffs and collect them as you see fit could be a boon to players who often complain about forced buffs (volts speed). People are lazy that is a given just looking at how many people refuse to play Limbo, Gara or Vauban due to their complexity. (and for me Gara is the simplest of the three). I have said it a few times but my opion on her 4 is that it should be changed to something else. I admit my suggestions for replacements are not overly well conceptualized but more just generalized alternatives for it at present. Embers will use world on fire vs fireball every time, the same way that Wisp's 4 would outshine her 3 but it doesn't make her 3 bad or her 4 bad, its just a bad combo having them both so close and so alike. Frame's with similar set ups in abilities (Embers 1+4, Volts 1+4, Frosts 2+4) all have their abilities on opposite ends of the range. The first one affects whatever it is I'm looking at (targeting) the second affects and area. People use the 4's more often because it affects more things. Wisp's 4 does kind of the reverse of that by being a targeted beam rather then an area of effect. So if the damage was the same and cost the same why would you ever use her 4?

Oh sure, the "forced" buffs that can be annoying and gameplay disruptive? Yeah those shouldn't even exist. I actually don't so much mind Volt's because it takes a good amount of resources to grief with it but I have had some bad experiences with Limbo's that make it their life goal to banish you at every opportunity. Limbo is not complex at all. Hit 4 hit 2, afk while your team screams at you to turn your abilities off. He then has a passive buff that dramatically increases his damage just for the hell of it. Vauban can likewise cause some interesting grief not only with bounce, but with Bastille holding enemies at their spawn location. It's like full slowva without the damage boost. Hell his vortex still lets him mop up a whole room and then ground finisher them all at once, which is mechanically incredibly powerful, he just has the same tool 5 times in the same kit, and then an entertaining but mechanically useless damage ability.

I am absolutely sure Wisp's 4 is going to outdo her 3. No one is going to put her totems all over the place to utilize strategically offensively if they have any illusions people are going to pick them up. Her 4 fulfills both roles perfectly: she looks in the general location of a group of enemies and turns on the sun. It targets a specific direction (frost's 2/Embe'rs 1/Volt's 1) and hits a wide area with AoE damage (Embers 4/Volt's 4/Frost's 4). It's not a radial burst centered on the caster, but rather you target where you would like the "caster" to be for the radial burst to be centered on. Most likely it will not have the same radius of effect at that point, but look at Ember's 3, does it look like that has Volt's/Frost's 4's range? Neither will Wisps 3. Also, not radiating from Wisp anyway, putting it in a weird comparative zone from the others. 

11 hours ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

Ya... In fairness Everquest came out like 4-5 years before WoW. I wasn't willing to drop all the work I had put into my characters when my friends started telling me about how much better Wow was. (forced 3rd person Vs optional 1st/3rd was not better to me). I don't recall a mechanic that matches that description but I wouldn't be surprised about it if Everquest had something similar. There were more then a few AoE buff spells that had to be applied to a singular character and would grant the boon to others in the area as well. But as far as I'm concerned managing those spells and your allies is part of being a good support. Though something Everquest had that made it easy to do was the ability to see your allies energy and buffs to know when you needed to recast. A mechanic that warframe lacks, making it harder (but not impossible) for supports to manage the rest of the team. But that's QoL UI change that likely won't happen any time soon.

You can most certainly see your team's hp/energy/buffs to know when to recast. You have to turn it on in options but yeah, looks quite a bit like the system in Everquest. I 100% a change to HuD/UI that goes beyond looking pretty, but the design team needs someone willing to do the thinking on that which isn't as fun as designing a warframe. Definitely use this on my Trinity/Equinox/Nezha to keep people healthy. It's also not as though support isn't a wide ranging thing in warframe. Some warframes like Hydroid can go full "support slave" and heal, cc, damage, and boost loot while being relatively untouchable. I am not against a support type or even the idea that each warframe should be partially a "support type". Again, jack of all trades, then master of one. Each warframe should have synergy beyond their own kit. This is why despite removing the buff fountains from my suggested remakes (yes two because I want ghost/others want light) both included a buff ability that is helpful to every team, and then adds another layer to her kit too. They don't lock down your team's guns to do so, they don't force people to pick them up, both are interactive with the other players choices in a meaningful way, and don't change how people would play the game at all. Support forcing their tank to jump through hoops to be supported is not bad for the tank, it's bad for the support in every single game ever made. 

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Personally I would prefer Wisp to be "buffing" in the terms of wide area debuffs or damage vulnerability. But that's a personal preference 🙂

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I don't see Wisp being good unless she gets post release tuning. Her kit and her theme don't make sense. It's like Revenant all over again. 

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9 hours ago, Vulmarrow said:

Dear ShikiRen,

Please calm down. This game is for all types of people, people who enjoy CC, DMG, and everything else.

You cannot stereotype every warframe, for example,

I thoroughly enjoy Revenant, his damage does not suck, and these types of abilities going on the last 3 out of 4 warframes shows that DE is experimenting.

Do not forget where Warframe has come from.

If you don't want to try something new,

then just leave.

Oh, the irony. "If you do not want to try something new, just leave." I DO WANT them to try something new, which is my effing point. You even QUOTED it for crying out loud! How you can think that slapping basically the same ability on 3 out off 4 frames is "experimenting" and trying to do "something new" is beyond me. If copypasting an ability and just change a variable here or there( "nono this is not a spin, it is a straight beam! Totally different! And this is a spin with a lot less range, see?!") is something new, then every cookie clicker game where they just changed the falling speed of the cookies is something new.

And if they want to experiment with different versions of the same ability... well that is what the design team is for right? You'd assume they'd test multiple spins on the same ability until they find the one that works best instead of slapping each iteration of it on a new frame until they make something that is actually decent.

 

Also, if you had actually read through the thread you'd have seen I actually had calmed down and wrote out some ideas I had to make her better and still basically the same. But you saying "The same ability 3 times is trying something new!" just made me annoyed again. Also Revenants damage does not suck completely...true. Which is why they cranked up the energy cost to the moon after about a week.

 

Also, another thing that completely invalidates them trying "Something new" : Revenant's ult literally is a new attempt at making "World on Fire" abilities work...which is on one of the original frames. Totally innovative, there. And hey, if it had just been Revenant, I'd have no problem. My Problem with Revenant lies with other things. But then they almost gave Garuda the SAME ability, just melee ranged before they changed it. Now they give Wisp that ability, only it is a beam, so pretty much worse from the get-go. Only that Wisp's stats and other abilities do not lend themselves to an ability that makes her a sitting duck that dies in 3 seconds. Really, do what I said in another post : Try Revenant against a group of sortie 3 level corrupted/grineer gunners/bombards, and do not activate his mesmerskin. Then try and see how far you can go with your ult before dying. That is about what Wisp will feel like. Only her beam does not hit everyone around her, so enemies at her back can take her out in a second or two without being threatened.

So... yeah. TL,DR : I do want something new, slapping minimally changed versions of the same ability (which is based on the ult of one of the first frames) on 3 out of 4 frames is the opposite of something new.

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of all the skills, im not looking forward to her 1. i dislike ability wheels and deployables that dont move on their own. this is a fast paced parkour game, and i dont know why DE thinks its ok to have anything be stationary.

even in the case of defense enemies spawn in different places and unless you are in a premade that has decided to stay in one spot and camp, players are gonna (as they always are in pubs) be all over the place. especially on defense that has moving person.

i dont mind her other 3 skills though. ive thrown theme out of the window when DE decided to ditch frame quests. these are just character cards now.

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I'm okay with deployables, I really dont like the switchable skills though like wisps 1, vaubans mines, and ivaras quiver. They're clunky and slow when you're trying to do multiple in any reasonable amount of time. I'd much rather remove or combine a couple of wisps buffs and simply make make it a single cast. Then you can have the Hold as her 3 instead which would free up an entire new ability. 

I can see the 1+3 combo being strong defensively in interceptions etc where you have points to defend, but she's really lacking meaningful survivability besides the passive for invis when in the air. Taunts in this game are really rather pointless currently since they barely work if the enemy can still see you (see loki and saryn decoy/molt)  and the electic proc from the buff is worse than simply shooting enemies with your guns. 

I'm not that excited for her 2, it seems to be pretty much a nezha 2 which isn't really something I find ever useful when it's usually just as fast to run to the place. 

 

TLDR

Wisp is looking to be just another damage focused frame without any real meaningful way to stay alive if you're locked into animations like 4. 1+3 can be merged to leave a spare ability slot for something defensive

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On 2019-04-05 at 8:11 PM, DLOArceus said:

Pretty sure that there's an option in...the options, that swaps that.

There is, it makes press use, and hold swap. However, this option doesn't work the same on all frames. Khora gets hold to use while press to swap while pretty much everyone else I've used gets the other option. 

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1 hour ago, LuckyCharm said:

I'm okay with deployables, I really dont like the switchable skills though like wisps 1, vaubans mines, and ivaras quiver. They're clunky and slow when you're trying to do multiple in any reasonable amount of time. I'd much rather remove or combine a couple of wisps buffs and simply make make it a single cast. Then you can have the Hold as her 3 instead which would free up an entire new ability. 

I can see the 1+3 combo being strong defensively in interceptions etc where you have points to defend, but she's really lacking meaningful survivability besides the passive for invis when in the air. Taunts in this game are really rather pointless currently since they barely work if the enemy can still see you (see loki and saryn decoy/molt)  and the electic proc from the buff is worse than simply shooting enemies with your guns. 

I'm not that excited for her 2, it seems to be pretty much a nezha 2 which isn't really something I find ever useful when it's usually just as fast to run to the place. 

 

TLDR

Wisp is looking to be just another damage focused frame without any real meaningful way to stay alive if you're locked into animations like 4. 1+3 can be merged to leave a spare ability slot for something defensive

Well technically using 2nd ability instantly makes you invisible while shadow travels. So enemies don't see you. But agree she could use survivability options like evasion.

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2 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

I'm okay with deployables, I really dont like the switchable skills though like wisps 1, vaubans mines, and ivaras quiver. They're clunky and slow when you're trying to do multiple in any reasonable amount of time. I'd much rather remove or combine a couple of wisps buffs and simply make make it a single cast. Then you can have the Hold as her 3 instead which would free up an entire new ability. 

I can see the 1+3 combo being strong defensively in interceptions etc where you have points to defend, but she's really lacking meaningful survivability besides the passive for invis when in the air. Taunts in this game are really rather pointless currently since they barely work if the enemy can still see you (see loki and saryn decoy/molt)  and the electic proc from the buff is worse than simply shooting enemies with your guns. 

I'm not that excited for her 2, it seems to be pretty much a nezha 2 which isn't really something I find ever useful when it's usually just as fast to run to the place. 

 

TLDR

Wisp is looking to be just another damage focused frame without any real meaningful way to stay alive if you're locked into animations like 4. 1+3 can be merged to leave a spare ability slot for something defensive

Or have the reservoirs pulse automatically once they are deployed - providing allies the benefit and damage nearby enemies.

Leaving number 3 slot open for fog (group stealth)... fog makes sense with the wisps folklore.

 

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1 hour ago, Aeon94 said:

Well technically using 2nd ability instantly makes you invisible while shadow travels. So enemies don't see you. But agree she could use survivability options like evasion.

Yeah i think my main issue with the shadow travel thing being her main invisibility other than her mid air passive is that while you're casting her 1, 3 or 4 you're a sitting duck with no protection and from the looks of 4 im not sure you'd be able to jump or cast 2 during it's animation which would negate any defenses you have at the time. Will probably have to play her to test it but it'd feel a little like baruch to me when you try to attack and his 1 instantly disables 

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23 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Yeah i think my main issue with the shadow travel thing being her main invisibility other than her mid air passive is that while you're casting her 1, 3 or 4 you're a sitting duck with no protection and from the looks of 4 im not sure you'd be able to jump or cast 2 during it's animation which would negate any defenses you have at the time. Will probably have to play her to test it but it'd feel a little like baruch to me when you try to attack and his 1 instantly disables 

Best thing DE can do is let Wisp keep altitude and momentum in air while casting Sol ( 4# ). So she can obliterate enemies with invis sun beam :d

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I have been Scrolling... for 30 PAGES!!

WellgroomedWavyBoilweevil-size_restricte

Now, honestly, I just wanted to reply to a thread that was trying to come up with something that they would actually want to see from Wisp, not one that just beat on about how we don't like what we've currently seen. Unfortunately, that thread vanished to be smashed into here somewhere.

And honestly, I now just want to leave the ideas and go. This feedback is too long and I'm going to presume that DE aren't actually going to be paying attention by this point, because they certainly didn't scroll past the first few comments on threads about Zephyr to read the actual ideas instead of the innane 'my first post' threads about her...

So.

I just think that Wisp needs to benefit from being more Wisp like and less... everything else.

Her passive? I like it. Wisps are, in the fairy tales and some of the non-adapted legends, known to flicker in and out of sight, appearing in different places to mystify and confuse people. So situational invisibility? Right on the money.

Her 1... Well I can see where they're coming from, the concept is that she summons places where other Wisps gather, and that by bringing those lesser wisps with you they grant you buffs. But. It's too bitty. Too broken up.

If you're going to do a deployable buffing station, do just one at a time and make it useful. By that I just mean make a deployable, call it a 'grove' or something, and when allies pass through that, they gain all three buffs at once. Then you can deploy, say, three of those 'groves', and have there be a bonus for the multiple casts.

Having a single cast not give a player the full benefit of base ability is not good ability design. Having a bonus effect not related to the base effect available for more casting is a good function, though, and could be something like 'while standing inside Grove's small radius, recasting will instantly relocate Wisp to a previously cast Grove'. So if you're on a fast-paced mission, you cast one, everyone runs through it, you gain all the health, speed and CC buffs, and the whole team moves on.

Also useful for missions that like diverting, such as Spy. Place a Grove outside the Vault, navigate the Vault, cast a Grove inside and transport back to the exit instantly. Also works for Survival missions where you can put a Grove down in a place with the Life Support, then run around to find resources, kill more enemies and so on, maybe even camp in a corridor, and if you need to crack open a pod, you can use Grove to return.

Her 2... Unlike a lot of people here, I think her 2 is perfect. Especially after the update from Pablo to say that she gains damage mitigation when she teleports. Talk about an interesting ability for survivability. Double-tap 2 in order to blind and gain temporary invulnerability... Also, fits with the actual theme. A distracting light to lead unwary victims away. That's a Wisp, that's the idea there.

Her 3? Oh sweet mother of forced dependence. No. The ability needs to do something first, a base function. If it's going to be damage, then have it be something like a pulse of damage from Wisp herself, and then as a bonus, not as a requirement, if there are Groves placed, a lower range damage pulse comes from those as well. To scale it up base it on how many enemies are within range, so it deals more if you manage to group enemies up. (Why? Because I had an idea for her 4.) This way, when she presses 3, she deals radial damage as a base effect, and then on top of that, for additional Energy cost of placing a Grove, she gets another instance of damage from there too.

That's, again, basic ability design. You don't make the ability do nothing when pressed just because you haven't cast another ability first. If you want a direct example of this in game, look at Baruuk. Anyone who does not like using Baruuk (and I'm not one of those people) will point out that when they press 4, nothing happens. Not unless they spend time casting his 1, 2 and 3 in order to build up the meter for his 4. To those people, it sucks. And to Wisp players, not being able to cast 3 without casting her 1 will suck.

But it's her 4 I really want to change.

Steering an animation around is boring. I don't care how good the damage is, I don't care how good the animation is, if I have to steer another animation ability around after having it on Hildryn and on Revenant, and narrowly avoiding having it on Garuda, I am going to be upset.

The current iteration literally makes her current 3 redundant. Why would you go set up your 1 and then time the press of your 3 when you can just press 4 and walk around with it? It's old Ash Bladestorm all over again, where your 4 is literally better than all of your other abilities in any given situation. It's un-interactive and if the damage actually does scale up high enough to make a difference at the levels we want it to, then it's going to be stupidly over-powered at the levels it shouldn't be.

What we need is an ability that allows us to scale better, without direct damage and locked animation being the key components.

So I propose 'Lost Souls', where you press 4 to coat a large area of ground in 'fog' (the kind of fog that travellers get lost in and see Wisps), similar to Oberon's Hallowed Ground in height so it doesn't actually interfere with sight for us. Enemies on it will be stunned, whether they are within the cast range or pass into it, stunned enemies will be in an Unaware state while within Lost Souls until directly attacked or until an Objective is in direct line of sight. Enemies within Lost Souls take bonus damage from all sources, and double damage from her 3. Unaware enemies within Lost Souls will be drawn to any Grove that is placed within the range.

This means you have; 1. an on-cast or on-contact stun, which is useful no matter what. 2. Enemies that take bonus damage, also is useful no matter what. 3. A way for Wisp to group all enemies up around her Groves so that you can hit them with the max-damage from her 3rd ability, and it deals bonus damage because of it. 4. A psuedo stealth mechanic where you can cause a room full of Alert enemies to become Unaware, and then go to town on them with a melee or similar for it's own bonus damage on first hit.

In any situation it's useful, but has limits; if you try to cast it to prevent enemies from capturing an Interception point... not going to work, they'll wake up, see the objective, be alert and do things again. Same with a Defense or Mobile Defense. In Survivals, though, and Extermination, Sabotage, Defection, this would really useful.

Honestly...

It's just tweaks to her 1 and 3, but the change to her 4 is something I would genuinely want to see in game. We need scaling that works with what we do, not scaling single-point damage that just puts us into an animation state that we steer about.

I mean... tell me, DE, was it Destiny 2 that inspired this 4th, or was it that somebody had literally just finished reading The War of Three Worlds and thought 'the power of the sun through a portal split the moon in half, let's use that for a Warframe ability!', hmm?

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2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Now, honestly, I just wanted to reply to a thread that was trying to come up with something that they would actually want to see from Wisp, not one that just beat on about how we don't like what we've currently seen. Unfortunately, that thread vanished to be smashed into here somewhere.

My Wisp thread in a nutshell, lol. Kinda like these ideas. Not exactly how I'd like to see Wisp, but way better than what we have.

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On 2019-04-05 at 2:52 PM, YandereWaifu said:

no frame dies in 1 hit at level 60 hell even at lvl 100 smh (unless your just like standing still not moving)

 

May I note Saryn Specter for Sedna junction

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14 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I mean... tell me, DE, was it Destiny 2 that inspired this 4th

Glad to know i wasnt the only person who saw it resembled a prometheus lens / Chaos Reach hybrid (or operator chest beams).

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Deployables are bad, de even said so a few seconds before in the same stream.. just beyond me. But she's great Mr fordder I guess

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3 hours ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Deployables are bad, de even said so a few seconds before in the same stream.. just beyond me. But she's great Mr fordder I guess

She feels like a mess. A wisp theme with a kit that is all over the place with powers that other frames can do but better. DE needs to do more warframe rework. Frames like her can wait.

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vor 26 Minuten schrieb moostar95:

She feels like a mess. A wisp theme with a kit that is all over the place with powers that other frames can do but better. DE needs to do more warframe rework. Frames like her can wait.

I don't mind new iterations of existing abilities. One can't invent the wheel twice. But deployables are so early 2000's and not fun.. her 2 is ok, her 3 is just a waste, and her 4... Well.. it was unexpected.. 

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14 hours ago, Gawizard said:

Glad to know i wasnt the only person who saw it resembled a prometheus lens / Chaos Reach hybrid (or operator chest beams).

My over-arching worry with her 4? It'll be cool the first few times you press the button. It'll get you killed a few times after that because enemies will have you before you can kill them. It'll be boring and only ever used for killing CC'd enemies after a few weeks.

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

My over-arching worry with her 4? It'll be cool the first few times you press the button. It'll get you killed a few times after that because enemies will have you before you can kill them. It'll be boring and only ever used for killing CC'd enemies after a few weeks.

I'm actually fairly certain we are going to see the opposite. They got a lot currently wrapped in it, so much so that I see folks complaining it breaks balance. They have stated it will scale up in damage the longer it hits an enemy, besides the laser you direct solar flares seek nearby enemies. This in concert with her passive, which as long as you are airborne you are stealth, can lead to some pretty interesting combinations. Especially with something like tractor beam. With that in mind I am also one of the fairly vocal ones about changing her. I am not super sold on her just being another nuke the whole room type frame. I take much more exception with her other abilities. None of them will ever be used in their current state. Save maybe double-tapping 2 to activate radial blind+damage reduction. It will never be useful as a teleport or decoy. I'm also sadly sure that anyone defending the pick up mechanic will have an opinion change after they play it in game. No one has spent enough time slapping Titania buffs out of enemies to realize how truly fun it's going to be. 

This whole topic however is really getting me to think about the whole state of the game as far as abilities go. Just commented in another thread about "useless passives", with the majority of Warframes fitting this description. Most warframes have "trash" abilities that no one uses. The viability of a warframe is simply how good it's best ability is, and how easy it is to achieve it. This is kind of wrong from a design perspective, but clearly evident in the game. I think the problem lies far beyond Wisp's kit, and this issue is just highlighting it. 

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On 2019-04-12 at 2:53 AM, (PS4)Technesiss said:

I don't see Wisp being good unless she gets post release tuning. Her kit and her theme don't make sense. It's like Revenant all over again. 

whats the prob with revenant? His kit has nice synergy and his 4 is strong even at high levels

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I heard that her skills were originally different. She had a possession-type ability and a Limbo-like pocket world that gave buffs and transportation to her totems.

I would have liked those, since I'm sick to death of damage-dealing abilities that do nothing besides that. I have guns, why would I need something that overlaps that utility. Wisp losing her ghostly aspects in favor of an ability that relies on the pressnce of another ability, and a (let's be honest here) memetic "Da powah of da sun!" damage skill that will likely falloff in any high level play just don't have a good feel to them. Yes I know it scales. It sounds like that only applies when you stay on a target, and single-target skills in a hoard-shooter seems awful. And yes I've heard the rationalization that "it's a will-o-wisp so of course it's fire", but the connection to fire ends at the aesthetic and certainly doesn't translate logically to "Place a portal to the sun and use the fire as a weapon".

Honestly I wouldn't mind at all if they Pre-Reworked her. Take those flaming abilities and give them to Ember (lord knows the poor girl needs SOMETHING to feel like she matters), and make Wisp more ghostly in how she plays. Because she's looking like she's going to be Revenant 2: Son of Khora. And to doom a frame with such a unique aesthetic and movement to such a mediocre kit is criminal. I want something fun and this set doesn't look fun...less fun when we get full Wisp teams just spamming the 4.

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On 2019-04-12 at 11:26 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I have been Scrolling... for 30 PAGES!!

WellgroomedWavyBoilweevil-size_restricte

Now, honestly, I just wanted to reply to a thread that was trying to come up with something that they would actually want to see from Wisp, not one that just beat on about how we don't like what we've currently seen. Unfortunately, that thread vanished to be smashed into here somewhere.

And honestly, I now just want to leave the ideas and go. This feedback is too long and I'm going to presume that DE aren't actually going to be paying attention by this point, because they certainly didn't scroll past the first few comments on threads about Zephyr to read the actual ideas instead of the innane 'my first post' threads about her...

So.

I just think that Wisp needs to benefit from being more Wisp like and less... everything else.

Her passive? I like it. Wisps are, in the fairy tales and some of the non-adapted legends, known to flicker in and out of sight, appearing in different places to mystify and confuse people. So situational invisibility? Right on the money.

Her 1... Well I can see where they're coming from, the concept is that she summons places where other Wisps gather, and that by bringing those lesser wisps with you they grant you buffs. But. It's too bitty. Too broken up.

If you're going to do a deployable buffing station, do just one at a time and make it useful. By that I just mean make a deployable, call it a 'grove' or something, and when allies pass through that, they gain all three buffs at once. Then you can deploy, say, three of those 'groves', and have there be a bonus for the multiple casts.

Having a single cast not give a player the full benefit of base ability is not good ability design. Having a bonus effect not related to the base effect available for more casting is a good function, though, and could be something like 'while standing inside Grove's small radius, recasting will instantly relocate Wisp to a previously cast Grove'. So if you're on a fast-paced mission, you cast one, everyone runs through it, you gain all the health, speed and CC buffs, and the whole team moves on.

Also useful for missions that like diverting, such as Spy. Place a Grove outside the Vault, navigate the Vault, cast a Grove inside and transport back to the exit instantly. Also works for Survival missions where you can put a Grove down in a place with the Life Support, then run around to find resources, kill more enemies and so on, maybe even camp in a corridor, and if you need to crack open a pod, you can use Grove to return.

Her 2... Unlike a lot of people here, I think her 2 is perfect. Especially after the update from Pablo to say that she gains damage mitigation when she teleports. Talk about an interesting ability for survivability. Double-tap 2 in order to blind and gain temporary invulnerability... Also, fits with the actual theme. A distracting light to lead unwary victims away. That's a Wisp, that's the idea there.

Her 3? Oh sweet mother of forced dependence. No. The ability needs to do something first, a base function. If it's going to be damage, then have it be something like a pulse of damage from Wisp herself, and then as a bonus, not as a requirement, if there are Groves placed, a lower range damage pulse comes from those as well. To scale it up base it on how many enemies are within range, so it deals more if you manage to group enemies up. (Why? Because I had an idea for her 4.) This way, when she presses 3, she deals radial damage as a base effect, and then on top of that, for additional Energy cost of placing a Grove, she gets another instance of damage from there too.

That's, again, basic ability design. You don't make the ability do nothing when pressed just because you haven't cast another ability first. If you want a direct example of this in game, look at Baruuk. Anyone who does not like using Baruuk (and I'm not one of those people) will point out that when they press 4, nothing happens. Not unless they spend time casting his 1, 2 and 3 in order to build up the meter for his 4. To those people, it sucks. And to Wisp players, not being able to cast 3 without casting her 1 will suck.

But it's her 4 I really want to change.

Steering an animation around is boring. I don't care how good the damage is, I don't care how good the animation is, if I have to steer another animation ability around after having it on Hildryn and on Revenant, and narrowly avoiding having it on Garuda, I am going to be upset.

The current iteration literally makes her current 3 redundant. Why would you go set up your 1 and then time the press of your 3 when you can just press 4 and walk around with it? It's old Ash Bladestorm all over again, where your 4 is literally better than all of your other abilities in any given situation. It's un-interactive and if the damage actually does scale up high enough to make a difference at the levels we want it to, then it's going to be stupidly over-powered at the levels it shouldn't be.

What we need is an ability that allows us to scale better, without direct damage and locked animation being the key components.

So I propose 'Lost Souls', where you press 4 to coat a large area of ground in 'fog' (the kind of fog that travellers get lost in and see Wisps), similar to Oberon's Hallowed Ground in height so it doesn't actually interfere with sight for us. Enemies on it will be stunned, whether they are within the cast range or pass into it, stunned enemies will be in an Unaware state while within Lost Souls until directly attacked or until an Objective is in direct line of sight. Enemies within Lost Souls take bonus damage from all sources, and double damage from her 3. Unaware enemies within Lost Souls will be drawn to any Grove that is placed within the range.

This means you have; 1. an on-cast or on-contact stun, which is useful no matter what. 2. Enemies that take bonus damage, also is useful no matter what. 3. A way for Wisp to group all enemies up around her Groves so that you can hit them with the max-damage from her 3rd ability, and it deals bonus damage because of it. 4. A psuedo stealth mechanic where you can cause a room full of Alert enemies to become Unaware, and then go to town on them with a melee or similar for it's own bonus damage on first hit.

In any situation it's useful, but has limits; if you try to cast it to prevent enemies from capturing an Interception point... not going to work, they'll wake up, see the objective, be alert and do things again. Same with a Defense or Mobile Defense. In Survivals, though, and Extermination, Sabotage, Defection, this would really useful.

Honestly...

It's just tweaks to her 1 and 3, but the change to her 4 is something I would genuinely want to see in game. We need scaling that works with what we do, not scaling single-point damage that just puts us into an animation state that we steer about.

I mean... tell me, DE, was it Destiny 2 that inspired this 4th, or was it that somebody had literally just finished reading The War of Three Worlds and thought 'the power of the sun through a portal split the moon in half, let's use that for a Warframe ability!', hmm?

More people need to see this. It's a pretty on-the-mark explaination of most of the things wrong with wisp in her current form. Namely...she's about as Wisp-like as a molotov cocktail through into a flower shop.

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10 hours ago, F8ted said:

I take much more exception with her other abilities. None of them will ever be used in their current state. Save maybe double-tapping 2 to activate radial blind+damage reduction. It will never be useful as a teleport or decoy.

Honestly I would say that her 2 is going to be my most used ability on her. I saw how enemies behaved on that preview, they literally left cover to chase it, while firing. The 'aggro draw' decoys have gotten so much better over time, and I actually feel like I can trust them. It's definitely going to be an ability I can cast and just gun down enemies that aren't paying attention to me.

You're right about the double-tap, that's definitely going to be a tactic, because I really want to see how far I can take an Immortality Blind function in terms of damage mitigation, but I think that her 2 is going to have far more utility in its current state than you give it credit for. Even when you're invisible, enemies will blind-fire at you, but if they're shooting at something else entirely, that's a decent survival function.

What I was talking about in my comment is that it doesn't matter how much damage it can deal, or even that it can deal damage to enemies around with those flares, it it's not killing enemies in less than a second, then you're at the point where their damage can do the same to you. And even using this in the air won't help that tactic because enemies will blind-fire in the direction of damage if it's sustained, plus it's not exactly a stealthy ability.

As I pointed out in an earlier comment, unless its initial damage numbers are high enough to stand up to Sortie level enemies (to kill them before they can shoot back), you'll start using it and you will die using it before a crowd of the enemy do. But if it is high enough to do that, then it's a low-level nuke that people will just steer around rooms like old Ember and ruin even their own fun.

Every single time DE introduce an ability like this, it walks that line. Wisp does not have any sustained way (like Revenant does) to mitigate damage while using this function. You can jump and turn invisible, but without your Aim Glide you fall to the floor again in only a second or so. Revenant also has a movement function while using his ability and Wisp apparently does not.

She will have all the problems of this type of ability and none of the advantages to make it work.

8 hours ago, Nyraxx said:

whats the prob with revenant? His kit has nice synergy and his 4 is strong even at high levels

The problem was that he didn't and it wasn't. He was released in a mess. Same as Khora before him.

DE had to do some serious patching and updating on both of them because in Khora's case they didn't change IPS and she didn't become the flagship warframe of those changes, and in Revenant's case, he was previewed as all Vampire with only Eidolon visuals and they chose to make him an even mix of both instead, meaning that his rather useful and powerful looking Mass Sleep (because Thralls was a timed thing, but spread everywhere, and all his Thralls could be put to sleep instantly with this ability) became a 'press 4 and steer around an animation with energy drain' ability. They only added the better damage mechanics at the last minute too. 

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