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ShikiRen

Wisp Review/Early feedback

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6 hours ago, Rankii said:

I heard that her skills were originally different. She had a possession-type ability and a Limbo-like pocket world that gave buffs and transportation to her totems.

I would have liked those, since I'm sick to death of damage-dealing abilities that do nothing besides that. I have guns, why would I need something that overlaps that utility. Wisp losing her ghostly aspects in favor of an ability that relies on the pressnce of another ability, and a (let's be honest here) memetic "Da powah of da sun!" damage skill that will likely falloff in any high level play just don't have a good feel to them. Yes I know it scales. It sounds like that only applies when you stay on a target, and single-target skills in a hoard-shooter seems awful. And yes I've heard the rationalization that "it's a will-o-wisp so of course it's fire", but the connection to fire ends at the aesthetic and certainly doesn't translate logically to "Place a portal to the sun and use the fire as a weapon".

Honestly I wouldn't mind at all if they Pre-Reworked her. Take those flaming abilities and give them to Ember (lord knows the poor girl needs SOMETHING to feel like she matters), and make Wisp more ghostly in how she plays. Because she's looking like she's going to be Revenant 2: Son of Khora. And to doom a frame with such a unique aesthetic and movement to such a mediocre kit is criminal. I want something fun and this set doesn't look fun...less fun when we get full Wisp teams just spamming the 4.

^This.

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@Rankii well written exactly how i feel about her. I call her mashed potatoes, mashed ideas together. 

Shes not even out and i hate her 4 already haha. This is literally first frame i feel like has no niche at all. But will see maybe DE will listen and surprise us (gave me hard times to not make any jokes haha). Love warframe and such but this wisp frame is all over the place. 

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well i hope they are actually reworking her kit, tbh its feel rushed , and random, the passif and 2 is good, other is trash, stationnary, out of place, and the ult sound like a meme skill, im really upset about how pathetic she look right now even if i don't have investigate her in some hours in simulacrum, but man... a thicc spooky ghost themed frame with a  gorgeous custom animation walk/sprint,end with a mastery fodder kit..

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I like wisp’s deploybles. It's different, it's cool. Only change I’d like to see is to have a fear CC instead of an electric shock – there’s not many sources of fear. It’d be fun just to have it so the ability could stand out some more.

 

Her 2 is too quick for me; it’s the same issue I have with Nezha’s ring. I’d love it if her decoy could hover (in the air) for just two / three seconds at the end, unaffected by duration, for a larger window. Hovering in the air would be a nice way to tie in her invisibility passive, should you teleport to it.

 

Her 4 isn’t what I was expecting as DE was showing her off. With all the reservoirs, I expected more synergy with them. I expected something along the lines of the reservoirs each manifesting a wisp decoy that could pull /taunt enemies in closer – which would make her 3 even better. Recasting her 4 before the duration ended could cause the decoys to explode with the damage scaling on how much time was still left.. but nope – giant, solar-powered death ray.. idk, it just seems boring.

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On 2019-04-13 at 12:38 AM, Lanzeroth said:

May I note Saryn Specter for Sedna junction

i never died to any specters and i was a mag starter soooo..... 

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18 hours ago, Rankii said:

I heard that her skills were originally different. She had a possession-type ability and a Limbo-like pocket world that gave buffs and transportation to her totems.

I would have liked those, since I'm sick to death of damage-dealing abilities that do nothing besides that. I have guns, why would I need something that overlaps that utility. Wisp losing her ghostly aspects in favor of an ability that relies on the pressnce of another ability, and a (let's be honest here) memetic "Da powah of da sun!" damage skill that will likely falloff in any high level play just don't have a good feel to them. Yes I know it scales. It sounds like that only applies when you stay on a target, and single-target skills in a hoard-shooter seems awful. And yes I've heard the rationalization that "it's a will-o-wisp so of course it's fire", but the connection to fire ends at the aesthetic and certainly doesn't translate logically to "Place a portal to the sun and use the fire as a weapon".

Honestly I wouldn't mind at all if they Pre-Reworked her. Take those flaming abilities and give them to Ember (lord knows the poor girl needs SOMETHING to feel like she matters), and make Wisp more ghostly in how she plays. Because she's looking like she's going to be Revenant 2: Son of Khora. And to doom a frame with such a unique aesthetic and movement to such a mediocre kit is criminal. I want something fun and this set doesn't look fun...less fun when we get full Wisp teams just spamming the 4.

You know, what you are suggesting doesn't look fun at all and I am pretty happy she is not a Ghost Frame. That is a disgusting cliche ... and guess what, fun is subjective. Some people just don't wanna use guns all the time, because again, guns are boring to many. Not all, sure, but there are people who are like "ok lol guns boring".

If she is gonna be Revenant 2 and the daughter of Khora, ya know, I would be very happy because Revenant is not as bad as people make him to be and Khora is actually very usable.

To doom the photokinesis Katawa Shojo to your expectation of her is also criminal.

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39 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

You know, what you are suggesting doesn't look fun at all and I am pretty happy she is not a Ghost Frame. That is a disgusting cliche ... and guess what, fun is subjective. Some people just don't wanna use guns all the time, because again, guns are boring to many. Not all, sure, but there are people who are like "ok lol guns boring".

If she is gonna be Revenant 2 and the daughter of Khora, ya know, I would be very happy because Revenant is not as bad as people make him to be and Khora is actually very usable.

To doom the photokinesis Katawa Shojo to your expectation of her is also criminal.

You know what I don't understand? Why you have this sort of claim over a frame named Wisp. Like, it's a hilarious joke but really that is what she should be. Look up any sort of definition, synonym and description of a Wisp. A disgusting cliche? What the hell are you talking about? Like in other games where it has a well established niche? There is one frame that has anything to do with ghosts in this game out of thirty-nine, and that's just to summon enemies after they are killed. There are more "shield" themed frames than ghost themed. Like glad you are getting one ability you like. Could have put it on Ember and no one would have complained. You are inherently biased against wisps initial theme, making any sort of objective discussion with you difficult. Strange how you go waggling bias around as if it weren't you guilty of it.  

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I'm worried that if they do decide to rework Wisp's abilities that they'll give her current 4th ability to Ember and decide that Ember is now "reworked". The last thing Ember needs is a slow, channeled, single-target ability that will almost certainly not scale higher than level 40 enemies. Sol looks amazing! But, I'd be really surprised if it's actually useful. 

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7 minutes ago, SkyCakeLight said:

I'm worried that if they do decide to rework Wisp's abilities that they'll give her current 4th ability to Ember and decide that Ember is now "reworked". The last thing Ember needs is a slow, channeled, single-target ability that will almost certainly not scale higher than level 40 enemies. Sol looks amazing! But, I'd be really surprised if it's actually useful. 

That's why it's a slow, channeled ability that hits a whole room and does in fact scale, if what the development team has said is still in place. Kind of like Banshees Sound Quake. Sure, she will be locked in one position, but what enemies? Hell, it was doing radiation procs in the reveal, which means it will also confuse any enemies not killed by the blast. If it takes effort to use it, I would be surprised.

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3 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

You know, what you are suggesting doesn't look fun at all and I am pretty happy she is not a Ghost Frame. That is a disgusting cliche ... and guess what, fun is subjective. Some people just don't wanna use guns all the time, because again, guns are boring to many. Not all, sure, but there are people who are like "ok lol guns boring".

If she is gonna be Revenant 2 and the daughter of Khora, ya know, I would be very happy because Revenant is not as bad as people make him to be and Khora is actually very usable.

To doom the photokinesis Katawa Shojo to your expectation of her is also criminal.

So you say that it doesn't look fun at all, then immediately say fun is subjective? The point is we have plenty of channeled damage dealing abilities. Revaenant has one, Garuda was going to have one, and there's plenty of ones that exist before (including ember, who could use a new one anyways). If you want to talk about "disgusting cliches" let's talk about that one. The game is also already flooded with damage-dealing frames and many less with skills focused around utility and especially ones with interesting or unique gimmicks. You may find guns boring, but there's already plenty of frames where you don't essentially need ones, like Nidus which also happens to be a remarkably strong frame with a unique gimmick. 

Also you seem to misunderstand or are likely intentionally ignoring why the comparison to Khroa and Revenat is relevant. It's not because they're bad, though I'm the only revenant I ever see in missions since they nerfed his 4, it's because their abilities have had dramatic changes that needed additional changes after their launch and much complaining on the forums, with Revenant even having a skill replaced with a big flashy damage dealing beam. Revenant had a mass sleep/vampirism for his 4, and Khora was supposed to be the shining star of the damage changes to Impact, Slash, and Puncture. The former's skill was changed and most of his abilities tweaked so that he's even usable, and the latter's damage gimmick and exalted whip were outright dumped. They aren't bad frames but they were rushed and underwent so many last-minute changes that it'd be laughable if it weren't so disappointing. 

It's clear there's a ghostly frame in there, with her passive and 2 showing the bits of the original intent, but with one ability being entirely reliant on another one being active, and one clearly being out of place and out of line with her look and style, you would have to be blind to not see it...which is probably why you mentioned Katawa Shojo: you can relate to it personally.

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2 hours ago, F8ted said:

You know what I don't understand? Why you have this sort of claim over a frame named Wisp. Like, it's a hilarious joke but really that is what she should be. Look up any sort of definition, synonym and description of a Wisp. A disgusting cliche? What the hell are you talking about? Like in other games where it has a well established niche? There is one frame that has anything to do with ghosts in this game out of thirty-nine, and that's just to summon enemies after they are killed. There are more "shield" themed frames than ghost themed. Like glad you are getting one ability you like. Could have put it on Ember and no one would have complained. You are inherently biased against wisps initial theme, making any sort of objective discussion with you difficult. Strange how you go waggling bias around as if it weren't you guilty of it.  

A placeholder name is a placeholder ("Wisp" is not confirmed as the frame's final name, it is as significant as when they called Revenant "Vlad"). To already innately attach your own interpretation of the theme to the frame based on non finalised details is actually one's own problem of confirmation, because they have not settled anything.

This is why I find is pretty dumb why people are still insisting "Wisp" is out of theme or that there is an initial theme. There is no theme in the first place. What do you want DE to call her on the Devstream if they can't use a Placeholder Name? "Female Frame no. 18/19"? "Butt Prime"? That's utterly ridiculous.

This is why I find discussions about theme and building powers on theme utterly unproductive as long as Placeholders remain Placeholders. Theme is already quite subjective and open to interpretation, how can there be objective discussions on it?

To argue that her powers are out of theme is equivalent to saying "I don't like her powers because I don't like her powers". You are free to dislike them, but this is not a valid argument why they are bad.

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3 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

A placeholder name is a placeholder

Yeah, but calm down, because a placeholder name is also indicative of the theme, because it's a memetic method of remembering which one you're working on and what theme you're trying to give them.

Revenant was renamed from Vlad because his original theme was a vampiric one, but when the decision was made to push more of the Eidolon (and thus the 'reanimated sentient' theme, with lasers, the Vomvalyst imagery on his Reeve and so on) they changed the name for the final release to reflect that this was now his theme.

Meanwhile, other frames with less... definable themes, came through with their testing names intact, like Baruuk, Hildryn and Khora.

Until Wisp releases with a different name, being called Wisp actually is an indication of theme and aesthetic.

On the other hand, you're not wrong. Arguing that her powers are off theme isn't the argument to change them. And I'm of the opinion that you're getting the wrong end of the stick with the argument if you think that's where a lot of us are coming from (some of us are, but a lot of us aren't).

What most of us are saying is that her abilities do not make a cohesive whole for a frame. There are a few frames that operate on this, like Rhino, where their kit is only loosely themed into their chosen thing of 'the heaviest frame created', but in practice there's no real relation between a linear offensive charge, a defensive over-armour, a radial damage buff and a time-slowing Crowd Control cast.

But in this specific, Wisp's abilities don't even have that functionality that Rhino's do. Rhino gets by with the simple expedient of his abilities having function over aesthetic

Wisp has currently got a 1 that places buff banners, a 2 that's a mild CC and also a teleport/blind/invulnerability if used that way, a 3 that is only functional if you cast her 1 first and only if that 1 is placed in a position that's useful (and not, say, at the beginning of the map for players to get the speed boost to reach the objective), and a 4 that is a steer-the-animation function that will either nuke everything in the most boring way possible, or get her killed at high level before its damage scales up.

These abilities are not only un-cohesive, they're also not all functional alone. Which is bad ability design.

So what we're suggesting is that better, more cohesive abilities could be found if you were to take the name 'Wisp' and theme some of them differently. Look for functions within that theme, and see how they work in practice.

Such as; placing a buff banner grants all three buffs, and you can have up to three of those out at a time, cancelling the oldest one whenever you cast a new one. Give that a function for Wisp beyond the buffs, such as instant relocation from one to the other if recasting within the range of an existing one, while allies still get all the buffs as normal just for passing through its radius.

How about the damage dealer on her 3 can still use the placed buff banners as a source of radial damage, but the damage primarily comes from Wisp and the radial damage from the buff locations is a bonus for the additional energy casts you've made. A similar example is Nidus' Link ability, where the cast to place Link on a target or an ally also results in you getting a second Virulence attack when you cast that ability. Primarily you use Virulence to deal direct damage, but secondarily you get another Virulence from another source because you cast the extra ability to make that possible.

How about instead of 'opening a portal to the sun', you create ability that actually plays into the other abilities (rather than ignoring them like the current one does) by something like a radial field that has a direct effect (a little CC and a buff for yourself and allies to take advantage of, like a damage buff on the enemy within range), then has a secondary effect that is triggered if you've put in the energy casts for your other abilities, such as drawing enemies to your buff banners, and then your 3 deals bonus damage to enemies affected by your 4, meaning that you have a self-buffing function, a combination that rewards your using your other abilities.

So if your 3 radiates from the player, primarily, then you can cast your 4, everything gets the light CC effect and then casting your 3 gives you bonus damage. Or you can cast your 1 in a position, multiple times if you'd like, then cast your 4, and aside from the light CC, they are also clustered around the banners and conveniently clustered within range of your 3's secondary damage effect radiating from those buff banners. You can potentially boost your damage up to very high levels by creating ability combos. And potential damage is something DE likes.

Now, I came up with those concepts by looking at the general theme of 'Wisp'. In which the fairy tales and stories around them do agree on a few things, like Wisps appear to lead travellers when they're lost, often this is maliciously to lead them to their deaths, and some say that groups of Wisps get stronger together, so if you wonder into a Grove where a Wisp holds sway, you are not likely to emerge alive. Wisps often appear in fog, and people seeing them often wander straight into the grove of a Wisp or just into a bog that will kill them.

So swap out Wisps little buff totems for a Grove, just a little appropriately themed point where allies can just run through to get their buffs, summoning Wisps to their aid to make themselves stronger. Swap out the Sol Beam for Lost Souls, a low field of mist (like Oberon's Hallowed Ground) that stuns and then places a damage multiplier onto the affected enemies so you can kill them easier, but if there's a Grove nearby, enemies will move into range of that and begin attacking instead (better potential CC) and you can then trigger your 3 for better damage on all those enemies affected.

tl;dr

It's not that we're complaining she doesn't match her theme. We're complaining her abilities are not exactly good in the first place and that, by simply looking at a theme based off her name, we've already come up with better abilities that would function better in game.

And for those people that weren't coming up with better abilities, they thought that by sticking with a theme, DE could come up with better instead.

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19 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

A placeholder name is a placeholder ("Wisp" is not confirmed as the frame's final name, it is as significant as when they called Revenant "Vlad"). To already innately attach your own interpretation of the theme to the frame based on non finalised details is actually one's own problem of confirmation, because they have not settled anything.

This is why I find is pretty dumb why people are still insisting "Wisp" is out of theme or that there is an initial theme. There is no theme in the first place. What do you want DE to call her on the Devstream if they can't use a Placeholder Name? "Female Frame no. 18/19"? "Butt Prime"? That's utterly ridiculous.

This is why I find discussions about theme and building powers on theme utterly unproductive as long as Placeholders remain Placeholders. Theme is already quite subjective and open to interpretation, how can there be objective discussions on it?

To argue that her powers are out of theme is equivalent to saying "I don't like her powers because I don't like her powers". You are free to dislike them, but this is not a valid argument why they are bad.

I have created two different skill sets to address my concerns with the kit. Yes, they are more ingrained than just the theme, it is just the most pressing issue to most people. To illustrate this, I even ran with your idea of a light theme. Mechanically, the abilities are better designed for the nature of Warframe. I also took care of course, to stay within a theme while changing abilities that would be at best described as clunky. Theorycrafters will still need to wait to see the numbers to truly state if she will be "good", but we realize it will be just one ability that this requires. If her 4 is one of the better nukes in the game, she will be considered strong, regardless of what her other abilities do. If you are able to blind a whole room with her 2, she will be strong, regardless of what her other abilities do. These however must be game-breaking levels of strong to shake up their competition.

Her 1 will never be as good, or as useful as another benchmark: Chroma's 3. To compare, Chroma can give around 10x multiplier in damage, and an equivalent increase in armor. For the sake of argument, it is much more prevalent for a damage increase to be important than an armor increase. This is simply requisite on him being within around affinity distance of a squad mate. His 2, another survival buff, can even be modded to remain after cast regardless of distance. To compete, Wisp will have to increase damage well over this threshold simply because it is so unwieldy. Even banshee, who has a similar threshold on her 2, is often built to take advantage of her 4. The key difference being the ergonomics. To Banshee, it is much faster and easier to hit 4, even if channeled, than it is to hit 2 and aim for weakspots. For enemies not affected by her 4, it may be more effective for her to use 2, but the number of enemies affected by her 2 that are not also affected by her 4 is very small. Sure at a certain point her 4 doesn't deal enough damage to do more than rock an enemy gently to sleep, but then she can switch effortlessly to her 2 to continue to be effective. Similarly, Chroma never has illusions of his damage abilities being effective. He just doesn't have an ability that clears the room of enemies less than level 40. Instead, he always bets on the best way to find a spot in the team: huge passively applied buffs. With Chroma on your team you don't need to pick up a buff, aim at a weak spot, or shoot through a shield. You just get more damage. It's not that these mechanics aren't to some degree interesting, it's that none of them exist as the only choice to bring in a squad. While playing Mesa shooting though Volt's shield vastly improves damage, but it's already liberating to have Mesa's Waltz to reposition. To stand behind where someone created you a spot is disruptive to gameplay. Instead, if that Mesa had a Chroma, they could turret where they want. On a grand scale this determines the popularity of a Warframe, where even something like permanent in mission flight can be on one of the least popular frame.

All stated, I have clearly, multiple times, stated that mechanically the abilities are flawed. I complain about theme because it is a "gimme" part of design. This was decided at the concept art phase and required no further balance considerations. As it does in most games and most abilities. You could create whatever theme you wanted in whatever setting required and it would still be fine. Aesthetically speaking, if all of Wisps abilities ended up looking like a flame/sun theme, they will have passed this first, simple test. Same is true if they keep it to a ghost/darkness theme. The mechanics of the ability can be entirely separate from the appearance. A decoy used to taunt could simply be a target symbol. A stomp can release earth shards, or ice shards. A beam of destruction can be fire, electricity, slash, or can reverse and suck something in. This doesn't change the function of the ability. With such leeway it is surprising that there is so little cohesion in the end on some sort of theme. A work in progress it may be, but this is step 1: The Easy Part.

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If those who replied to me followed my posts on this thread, you will know I am strongly against Wisp's current 1 and the state of her 3 not propagating from her main body. The aesthetic of using a portal to pop a miniature star at a set point that deals scaling damage like Hydroid's 3 in formula but heat/radiation I have suggested before, rather than buffs. It will not hurt if we have another DPS frame that scales.

Her 2 is actually fine. It is confirmed that there will be a blind and invulnerability window, so two quick taps can be used for panic CC. All I would ask is to tack on invis as long as the decoy travels.

Give her 3's pulses armor strip/magnetic procs that drain shields away to make her damage and her team's damage more effective. It's easy enough to justify this as like ... opening a portal to the sun's corona. Of course, wisp herself ejects the main pulse from herself.

Her ulti can get the Chroma 1 treatment and allow her to retain full mobility or even be made into an exalted beam. She can even get a Baruuk Elude like thing where the portal she opens can suck bullets in a frontal cone.

This is just one possible suggestion, it has a unified appearance, it has workable skills. Fun is subjective so I don't mention it.

I don't get the reasoning behind "oh no this cannot scale, damage is bad/boring", "Wisp must be a support" and the infamous "Synergy is gud". Frames with forced Synergy are annoying and stupid, really. Natural Synergy, like a Speed Nova with Antimatter absorb (enemies clump faster, the drop absorbs more shots from enemies firing faster, the drop explodes for double damage to those affected by Molecular Prime) is less clunky.

The only thing I don't get is why people bash on Wisp's skills other than the obviously static 1 and 3 forcing 1 to be present, since none of them look completely unworkable as long as the numbers are good enough. I don't find them mechanically that flawed.

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We've already got a fair share of DPS frames already and can do with something else, as the game is already heavily tilting to the point where "Muh big numbers" is the only real strategy needed. And we all know how quick they are with those nerfs when something gets too popular and/or strong. More emphasis on support and frames that don't essentially need damaging abilities (because guns exist) also helps slow the powercreep a bit. Because DPS frames are either stupidly overpowered to compensate for the game's aggressively bad scaling, or they become Ember. Utility stays useful at nearly all levels because while damage falls off, function doesn't. Also her 2 does have invisibility. You can see it in the devstream, and it's the only ability she has that doesn't feel like a rehash of another frame's ability. 

Her 3 is still poor for being solely reliant on her totems being up, and adding a pulse to the main body isn't going to help that since I doubt a tanky frame would have any need for both a passive that gives invisibility, and an ability that both fires a decoy and adds invisibility. Unless it's stupidly strong to offset the risk of diving into groups to make the most of it.

Her 4 needs to just be changed. Even with full mobility having yet another channeled damage skill is a waste of a slot and channeling it will likely keep her from using her other skills when something inevitably starts firing from off-screen. It doesn't even have the benefit Revenant's 4 has of hitting things all around her.

Nobody, from what I've seen, is saying that she needs synergy, and conflating interaction with forced synergy is only going to muddy things up. You can use Saryn's spores and use her miasma independently. Both are viable but become more effective when used together. Her current 3 is forced synergy as it can't function without 1 being active. Having skills do something different or extra when combined is good because it adds options, which means the frame can be played in more ways than "Hurr press a couple of buttons and enemies die" similar to how old ember's WoF would stop hurting things at higher levels, but slapping on Firequake gave it value as a kind of CC. Mechanically they aren't entirely flawed. But they're boring and feel very last-minute. Especially the 3 and 4.

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It's very hard to follow anything on this, it's a megathread, other threads get merged in and conversations are lost. Now, to your points;

4 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

It will not hurt if we have another DPS frame that scales.

No, but it will hurt that frame if the DPS is at the expense of all their other abilities and gameplay. I mean, even if it worked better, why would you use her 3 at all when you can use her current 4? If her current 4 scales well enough?

That 'if' is the other side of things. These kinds of abilities walk the fine line of either being god-tier over-powered or underpowered when it actually matters. If you even attempt to set the damage low enough that it's not a low-level nuke, but then expect it to scale up so that it becomes viable in end-game, then that's just naive. If it has to scale up, per enemy it's hitting, to have high enough damage to kill even level 100 enemies, then you're going to get killed using it because it's an aimed ability, not a radial one and the enemies in Warframe function like a horde shooter. If it has enough damage at base that the scaling quickly ramps it up to deadly at those levels, then it's too powerful below those levels and players won't use anything else but that.

We've seen it before, we'll see it again. People complain about frames like Mesa and Saryn already, constantly, and say they're ruining the game. Having yet another frame that can spin in a circle and kill everything her laser points at? Just the same thing.

Damage, as a concept, is not bad. Damage in this execution is just plain boring, no matter how flashy the visuals.

What you have to do is compliment it, I mean, if you were following my comments, you'd see that I was exactly encouraging the kind of synergy that Nova has. Where if you use one ability, things are primed for its effects, and then using another ability creates a bonus effect along with its regular effect, or a different ability has its own bonus effect if used in tandem, and if you use all three? Bigger bonus while getting all the benefits of the original abilities the rest of the time.

But doing so without a ridiculous, boring, 'steer around the animation' 4.

Let her 3 deal damage, and let her 4 facilitate it being better damage, just like the kind of synergy that actually works in Warframe.

Just say no to boring steer-me-around damage.

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8 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's very hard to follow anything on this, it's a megathread, other threads get merged in and conversations are lost. Now, to your points;

No, but it will hurt that frame if the DPS is at the expense of all their other abilities and gameplay. I mean, even if it worked better, why would you use her 3 at all when you can use her current 4? If her current 4 scales well enough?

That 'if' is the other side of things. These kinds of abilities walk the fine line of either being god-tier over-powered or underpowered when it actually matters. If you even attempt to set the damage low enough that it's not a low-level nuke, but then expect it to scale up so that it becomes viable in end-game, then that's just naive. If it has to scale up, per enemy it's hitting, to have high enough damage to kill even level 100 enemies, then you're going to get killed using it because it's an aimed ability, not a radial one and the enemies in Warframe function like a horde shooter. If it has enough damage at base that the scaling quickly ramps it up to deadly at those levels, then it's too powerful below those levels and players won't use anything else but that.

We've seen it before, we'll see it again. People complain about frames like Mesa and Saryn already, constantly, and say they're ruining the game. Having yet another frame that can spin in a circle and kill everything her laser points at? Just the same thing.

Damage, as a concept, is not bad. Damage in this execution is just plain boring, no matter how flashy the visuals.

What you have to do is compliment it, I mean, if you were following my comments, you'd see that I was exactly encouraging the kind of synergy that Nova has. Where if you use one ability, things are primed for its effects, and then using another ability creates a bonus effect along with its regular effect, or a different ability has its own bonus effect if used in tandem, and if you use all three? Bigger bonus while getting all the benefits of the original abilities the rest of the time.

But doing so without a ridiculous, boring, 'steer around the animation' 4.

Let her 3 deal damage, and let her 4 facilitate it being better damage, just like the kind of synergy that actually works in Warframe.

Just say no to boring steer-me-around damage.

Her current 4 will still cover less area than her 3. Again, as I said, it would be easier to just tack on an effect like armor strip or similar to her 3. There can be much simpler changes rather than anything too drastic. The need to use 1 before 3 can be used is pretty much on the stupid side already.

Again, "boring" is subjective, so I wouldn't use that as an argument. Why should I say no to "Steer me around damage" when it could be turned into an exalted weapon or given the Chroma 1 treatment with full damage? Why must I be forced to like supposed "utility" that your suggestion has? I don't see the reason for tedium to go through all the setup, or why all skills must always be used, rather than situational utility like the first 8 frames have.

Now I understand why people just say "wait for the release and see". Because right now people are basically just throwing out ideas they wanna see, which may have more or less takers. Might as well just wait for DE to give us something and just be happy/unhappy then. "Wisp" isn't going to be the last frame made anyway.

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6 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Her current 4 will still cover less area than her 3. Again, as I said, it would be easier to just tack on an effect like armor strip or similar to her 3. There can be much simpler changes rather than anything too drastic. The need to use 1 before 3 can be used is pretty much on the stupid side already.

Again, "boring" is subjective, so I wouldn't use that as an argument. Why should I say no to "Steer me around damage" when it could be turned into an exalted weapon or given the Chroma 1 treatment with full damage? Why must I be forced to like supposed "utility" that your suggestion has? I don't see the reason for tedium to go through all the setup, or why all skills must always be used, rather than situational utility like the first 8 frames have.

Now I understand why people just say "wait for the release and see". Because right now people are basically just throwing out ideas they wanna see, which may have more or less takers. Might as well just wait for DE to give us something and just be happy/unhappy then. "Wisp" isn't going to be the last frame made anyway.

This is just my opinion now

No Wisp isn't going to be the last frame made, but its going to be the last frame with that particular visual design. And I was personally hoping to see a floating ghost be a stealth based frame.

I do think her current moveset could be cool, but I just wish it was not on this frames visuals... Maybe on a warframe with a more shamanistic theme, putting down buff totems, using the power of the sun. Could make for a cool shaman warframe.

If anything i'm more disappointed that I will never see this frames visuals in a cool stealth frame once its released as a buff/DPS frame. no amount of rework once its release can completely change the fundamental playstyle and role of the frame, hench why im personally attempting to make my voice heard now rather than later.

 

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2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Why should I say no to "Steer me around damage" when it could be turned into an exalted weapon or given the Chroma 1 treatment with full damage?

Because, and here is the over-arching point; it can't be used with anything else.

Her passive invisibility? Unusable barring a second or so at the start of the cast. Her 1? In its current form (and any potential form that we could give it) there's almost nothing it can do, and you certainly can't place new 'wells' while her 4 is active, meanwhile the buffs it gives won't help because at best you'll be able to move around a little faster, the CC and Health won't do anything. Her 2? Disabled while using her 4. Her 3? Also disabled while using her 4.

Primary, secondary and melee weapons? All disabled too.

You are losing any and all utility your frame has in order to gain a direct damage ability. And the problems with that direct damage ability are ones I've pointed out already, but on top of that, other frames with similar direct damage abilities (such as Mesa) have other abilities that support it. Mesa has Shatter Shield and Shooting Gallery to keep her alive while using her 4, Revenant has a literal immortality ability and Reeve for supporting using his 4, and and Garuda had this same type of ability removed in the development stage because her other abilities didn't actually have these same kind of functions; the function of supporting a mode where you're having every other option removed and have to be exclusively in an animation.

This problem is not limited to damage abilities either. DE have recently removed the 'in air' limitation on casting abilities because animation locks are not good for gameplay. there are abilities that actively suffer because of animation locks (such as Zephyr's 1), locked animation on abilities is not good for Warframe gameplay in and of itself.

And at every chance we get, we should not hobble frames by introducing that problem onto them without adequate support for it. And currently, Wisp's kit doesn't have that.

2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Again, as I said, it would be easier to just tack on an effect like armor strip or similar to her 3.

I think you're hitting on my problem with this when you say 'just tack on an effect'.

Because, here's the question, why would you use her 3 with the current state of her 4? If you can, at longer range than your 3, just burn everything down with your 4? Why use your 3 at all, even if it has armour strip?

If casting her 3 does strip armour, then how much would you have to scale that, how many casts would you have to do, in order to beat the damage scaling of her 4? It's the same as the Ash argument before the changes to his 4 limited the number of hits it could do to a single target. Sure, Seeking Shuriken can strip armour, but why would you use that when his old 4 ignored armour completely?

Let's not create redundancy in our warframes before they're even released.

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Because, and here is the over-arching point; it can't be used with anything else.

Her passive invisibility? Unusable barring a second or so at the start of the cast. Her 1? In its current form (and any potential form that we could give it) there's almost nothing it can do, and you certainly can't place new 'wells' while her 4 is active, meanwhile the buffs it gives won't help because at best you'll be able to move around a little faster, the CC and Health won't do anything. Her 2? Disabled while using her 4. Her 3? Also disabled while using her 4.

Seems to be a few assumptions we are making here, that using the 4 will lock her out of casting the other powers or that it prevents the passive invisibility. This is quite a large leap of logic that has to be made. You have already assumed that Wisp's skills will be prevented from casting when the 4 is active, when there are frames which can cast their powers when channeling a continuous ability.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Primary, secondary and melee weapons? All disabled too.

You are losing any and all utility your frame has in order to gain a direct damage ability. And the problems with that direct damage ability are ones I've pointed out already, but on top of that, other frames with similar direct damage abilities (such as Mesa) have other abilities that support it. Mesa has Shatter Shield and Shooting Gallery to keep her alive while using her 4, Revenant has a literal immortality ability and Reeve for supporting using his 4, and and Garuda had this same type of ability removed in the development stage because her other abilities didn't actually have these same kind of functions; the function of supporting a mode where you're having every other option removed and have to be exclusively in an animation.

Again, the same assumption as previously made, which is assuming that Wisp is locked out of her powers when she is channeling the 4. Which we actually cannot tell if it will be true in the final build. DE has not even really showed the effect of the powers used on enemies, just the animations and what happens. Wisp's 2 can be functionally similar to Revenant's reave in being usable and costing less when using the 4.

As for the weapons being disabled, we already have that with exalted weapons, Danse Macabre and Hildryn's 4, so there is nothing new here. Your obsession seems to be removal of the 4 simply because you have a preferred playstyle - there is nothing wrong with such a preference, but this is just what you like. I just happen to disagree.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This problem is not limited to damage abilities either. DE have recently removed the 'in air' limitation on casting abilities because animation locks are not good for gameplay. there are abilities that actively suffer because of animation locks (such as Zephyr's 1), locked animation on abilities is not good for Warframe gameplay in and of itself.

And at every chance we get, we should not hobble frames by introducing that problem onto them without adequate support for it. And currently, Wisp's kit doesn't have that.

Yet we still have Revenant's 4 and Hildryn's 4.

Again, I will reiterate, we know too little about Wisp to be able to make such a judgement that she will be inadequate to use her 4 safely. All we see are visuals, not the actual combat effects and numbers. Without such, it is difficult to prove anything.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I think you're hitting on my problem with this when you say 'just tack on an effect'.

Because, here's the question, why would you use her 3 with the current state of her 4? If you can, at longer range than your 3, just burn everything down with your 4? Why use your 3 at all, even if it has armour strip?

If casting her 3 does strip armour, then how much would you have to scale that, how many casts would you have to do, in order to beat the damage scaling of her 4? It's the same as the Ash argument before the changes to his 4 limited the number of hits it could do to a single target. Sure, Seeking Shuriken can strip armour, but why would you use that when his old 4 ignored armour completely?

Let's not create redundancy in our warframes before they're even released.

I will simply pose a similar question - why not change the 1 and 3 rather than the 4? Or rather, why not wait and see what else the 3 does because all we see now are the fancy particle effects.

Also, Ash's 4 in his old iteration required power range (I assume you mean the 18 chain bladestorm with the animation) - if you built him for invis, it wouldn't be very effective to Bladestorm.

This is why I will reiterate, as much as I actually dislike such a stance, let's just wait and see until more details come out.

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This is my thinking process.

1, If we attach the temporary/internal name "Wisp" more truely to her theme ( plus what we have seen so far regarding how she move, how she goes invisible in air, and how she float about) i can sumarise her as an elusive, support frame that distract, and buff squadmates, rather than a damage dealer herself. With that in mind i think the following adjusment feels closer to her "character"

Power 1: Light - Basically her current 2, but instead of shooting one shadow to a direction, it should spawn multiple shadows (1 to 3 depending on power strength) that float off in different direction as a distraction/aggro to mob, while she turn invisible until the duration (effected by duration) of shadow run out. Pressing 1 again while pointing towards any 1 of her shadow will teleport her to that shadow, and do a small aoe confuse/blind to surrounding mob for X amount of time/invulnerable for x amount of time.

Power 2: Reservoir - Basically her current 1, but instead of a stationary buff/proc, its a cast ability. Casting on alies or mob will have positive/negative effect accordingly. Red is heal/hp drain: Casting on ally will increase hp recovery, while casting on mob will drain their hp, and heal Wisp herself; Blue is energy/shield drain: Casting on ally to increase energy rcovering, casting on mob to drain their shield/armor to replemish Wisp's shield/overshield and armor: Green is speed/slow: Casting on ally to increase their reload and melee speed, while casting on mob to slow them. Long press to choose between buff/proc, and quick tab to cast.

Power 3: TickTock - Build on her 2, pressing 3 will set off her 2 on any allies and mobs, and set off a small amount of stunt AOE from them (as if time itself stop where all mobs effected will stop for the duration), as well as Wisp herself. If no ally or mob carrying her 2 while casting, she send out a much longer/wider stunt AOE herself. The duration and range of the AOE depends on how many active "2" are around/out there... The less active "2" are out there, the more powerful/bigger her own aoe will be. Also the closer any ally and mob carrying her "2" towards her, the echo from each pulse will multiple, and increase the duration output of the pulsing. In contrast the more "2" carrier out there, it will cover bigger area, with smaller pulsing zone.

Power 4: Phantom - She transform into an energy entity, covered in pulses and flares that reach out. She phase in and out of realm, while able to do damage to surrounding, she is invulnarable to any incoming damage. Her speed increase, but cant use any primary, secondary and melee weapon. The only form of attack in this "phantom" stage is by phasing through a mob. As she pass through a mob she absorb their hp and shield to distribute to nearby ally. Mob will be confuse for x amount of time, as well as a proc (proc type depends on energy colour). If she phase through an ally, ally will get hp/energy recovery increase and a small speed boost. Her energy flares can reach and grab nearby mob to confuse them if they get too close (flares effect by range) The closer she is to a mob, the more damage she can do to them.

 

2, On the other hand, if "portal" and "ghost" are supposingly a theme closer to her (going invisible through plains, harness energy???) Then perhaps she is more of a mid-range DMG caster/CC frame.

Power 1: Blink - Appear through/along a mob/Ally of choice (click 1 while pointing at an ally/mob) unlike Loki, you dont swap places, you simply "run" along. If cast on a mob, the mob will be confuse for x amount of time, while casting on an ally will boost their speed as you.

Power 2: Displace - A CC skill to displace mob. Click and hold to select mobs, release to place selected mobs to location 15/20/25m backwards. Mob will suffer a short confuse after displacement, as well as impact proc.

Power 3: Dusk & Dawn - Summon a small sun/black hole to throw at direction of choice. This is a swapable power where long press to swap between, and quick tap to cast. The sun (Ball of light with energy colour, enveloped with red flares) will push mob in the path away with a fire proc & fear, while the black hole (The energy ball will be of your energy colour, with dark blue flares) will swallow mobs on the path, and end with an explosion when duration runs out, with mobs suffer from blast and radiation proc.

Power 4: Calamity - She summon a bubble of disaster (the type of damage depends on her energy colour) at selected location. Mobs nearby will be pull in and suffer the dedicated proc. This can be multi cast (max 5 bubbles at a time) and size of bubble effect by range, while duration effect how long each bubble last. Casting on same location will stack/multiply the strength and size of the bubble. When allies enter the bubble, their negative status effect will be neutralize. Wisp herself can transport between each bubbles, base on casting sequence.

 

This is what i thought so far after reading through many many pages and post from here and there....

 

Cheers

 

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15 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Seems to be a few assumptions we are making here

Right. Back. At. You.

I am at least going on what we were shown. That's what this feedback is for. We were shown abilities and how they work right at that point, and we're discussing the pros and cons of them at that point.

You can't say that I'm assuming because, until DE come up and show us otherwise, Wisp could not use any of her other abilities or her weapons during her 4.

Yes, there are frames with continual drain abilities that put them into a locked animation and can still cast other abilities. Let's count them; Revenant makes 1 and... wait... there aren't any more. You could argue Hildryn, but all she gets is her Balefire, and it's her only source of damage in that mode, because Aegis Storm is more about CC. Let's count the other frames that get into locked animations that drain energy and can't cast/recast abilities while those are active; Banshee, Chroma, Harrow, Inaros, Mesa and Nyx (un-augmented) makes 6 to 1 against. Forgive me for choosing to go with the majority of experience, rather than the one exception.

Until we're shown that her 4 is not like the other 6 that have abilities locked into animations, then we have to presume that it will be the same.

26 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

we know too little about Wisp to be able to make such a judgement that she will be inadequate to use her 4 safely

Actually, as I've said, we know only what we've seen. And what we've seen does not support her 4. At all.

What we've been shown is invisibility that only triggers when she's in the air, and no ability to jump while in her 4, what we've been shown is a buff ability that increases health, speed and adds a short-range Electric-proc CC, none of which would actively stop her getting shot at, what we've been shown is a direct damage attack on her 3 that is completely reliant on her 1 being out (and we both agree that should be fixed).

What none of these abilities do is what the other frames do; her 4 isn't Radial, like Banshee's 4 or Inaros' 3, and she doesn't have indirect or direct damage mitigation functions like Inaros, Mesa, Chroma, Harrow or Nyx, or even Hildryn. She has none of the things that make it possible for those frames to use their drain abilities that lock them into animations in a successful manner.

Without some function that does that, her 4 is going to either be a nuke or suicide. One or the other. We know this from actual frames that have similar functions in the game right now.

35 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

I will simply pose a similar question - why not change the 1 and 3 rather than the 4?

I will pose a simpler one; how have you not understood that I want to change all three of them?

Her 1, 3 and her 4 all need some manner of fix. For her 1 it's too clunky, too broken up into small bits, making it a terrible buffing ability simply because a player has to cast at minimum three times to get the buffs, but also travel between those three casts to gain and refresh them. Her 3, as currently shown, we both know needs to function as an ability first, and then have a bonus for her 1 being out, not the other way around.

But her 4 is, to me, the worst offender. It doesn't have any basic synergy with her kit, it's not supported by anything else she does, and it also (as shown) puts her in a state of 'rocket tag' where she either kills the enemy first, or they kill her. And considering there's only one of her, and lots of the enemy, we know which way that's going to work out once we move past the level 30-40 range.

50 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

This is why I will reiterate, as much as I actually dislike such a stance, let's just wait and see until more details come out.

Now me? I'm usually all for this method.

I was like that with almost all the other frames over the years. With the exception of the previous year or so.

The two notable exceptions were 1. Khora, and not for the frame, I was enthusiastic for the frame, but specifically for the IPS Status that came with her, and would have been a terrible way to update the game (honestly, DE definitely did not think the Impact one through at all...) and 2. Garuda, who was previewed with a 4 that was a mechanical clone of Revenant's, with lower range and different damage types on it, but still exactly the same. Garuda was not released with that 4, because DE went 'oh, yeah, maybe they're right' and created one of the best 4th abilities in the game because of it, one that not only works with the rest of her kit, but also works with every other frame that exists to turn her into one of the best scaling frames there is.

Meanwhile, a thousand and one threads popped up about Hildryn because of her being a shield-based frame, and, knowing that DE was making an experimental frame that would function based on Shields, I waited to see what would come of it, and I wasn't disappointed. DE may have created an ability where you steer around the animation, but guess what? They made it a Crowd Control ability that fed the team energy orbs, while the damage part came from using her 1st ability (which is actually pretty powerful) meaning that it's not the 4th being supported by the rest of her kit, it's her 4th actually supporting her kit. 

Given the success rate of saying no to 'steer around the animation' functions on Garuda, and the success rate of calling out bad mechanics on Khora, and then re-inforced by DE specifically not making those same mistakes on Hildryn, I think we should give feedback on Wisp.

Unlike Hildryn, DE are not making an experimental frame with unique mechanical theme and function so we have very close examples to her abilities to compare to.

Like Garuda and Khora, there are clear things we can see that do not work, so like them our feedback should be relevant to the process.

The Wait-and-See sticker is often stamped by me on things. It hasn't been here, because there are clear cut cases of DE missing concepts that they normally would not.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Datam4ss:

Seems to be a few assumptions we are making here, that using the 4 will lock her out of casting the other powers or that it prevents the passive invisibility. This is quite a large leap of logic that has to be made. You have already assumed that Wisp's skills will be prevented from casting when the 4 is active, when there are frames which can cast their powers when channeling a continuous ability.

A little over a week ago I asked Pablo during one of his broadcasts on Twitch if Wisp is able to use her 2 during her 4. His answer was no, but they might look into giving her a custom dash (like Hildryn's) while she uses her 4 instead.

Believe me if you want to or not, but I don't feel like searching last two VODs of his for a timestamp as I don't remember either in which one of those I asked the question nor at which part of them exactly it was.

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Is it so bad that a frame does damage? Is it so bad that frame lacks utility? I ask these cause I really need to know why people are so mad over a frame that is not out yet. You know that frames are their own style of gameplay right? Much less of what it used to be in the past, frames today are more freeform in their usage and play style coming with their own mini game of sorts. I feel as though, and I say this with respect, many min maxers, i myself am one to an extent, just do not have fun with th game anymore.

Why is it only about how good a frame is? Why is that metric we measure on? Prehaps being spoiled by the designs of Nidus and Mesa have ruined the Warframe community to the point where we can not accept even a slight deviation from concepts like such. Take Khora for example. I feel that many still hate her and think she is bad but that is completely unwaranted. She is nigh unkillable in endgame levels. Has utility, cc, and damage that scales. Yet because she didnt have and exalted whip she consider bad only because of her meh release. Min maxers probally wanted to do spin to win on her.

Lets look at Gara.  The secomd they nerfed the wall everyon forgot about her. Meanwhile, she still had infinite scaling damage and 90% that give that damage field to everyone with the dr as well. Also he first ability does made damage and is a hard cc. Did you know her fourth makes you do more damage to vitrified enemies and refreshes your 2?. Sure you dont really use her 3 but why was she thrown away?

Revenant Revenant Revenant. I am a huge advocate for this frame because of his one shot potential and his insane sustain making him, say with me, nigh unkillable. I feel that his pore is a garbage fire but his kit is sound and rather well designed. It is a closed system resource user and yes it is more efficient to use other frame but that's not the point of picking a frame yes? 

Garuda. Say it again! Nigh unkillable with massive infinite scaling dps tools in her kit and yet! People hate her and say she is bad. I am confused at this one in particular especially since i have started playing her even more. She is a monster when it comes to sustain and damage with some utility in there as well allowing you to use guns that you couldnt before because she adds slash!

Baruuk. ONE MORE TIME PEOPLE, nigh unkillable. Baruuk is well designed around his concept and evrrything in his kit makes sense. He just not played because people say he does scale but he does. He clears trash mobs well into the triple digits and if he slide attacks, can do the same for heavy units. He aslo offers alot of control with his ultimate.

The whole point im trying to make is that people are missing the essence of what warframe is. The warframes themselves. I played Nezha when he was "bad" and yet I never felt like he was bad at all. Sure i made post on the forum to ket some QoL things done but other than that i loved him deeply and played him because he was fun for me. I feel people have lost that thought. Warframe is not about having fun anymore. It is about how good a frame is and that to me is highly detrimental. But hey thats my two cents take it as you will

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