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Wisp Review/Early feedback

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2 minutes ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Is it so bad that a frame does damage? Is it so bad that frame lacks utility? I ask these cause I really need to know why people are so mad over a frame that is not out yet. You know that frames are their own style of gameplay right? Much less of what it used to be in the past, frames today are more freeform in their usage and play style coming with their own mini game of sorts. I feel as though, and I say this with respect, many min maxers, i myself am one to an extent, just do not have fun with th game anymore.

Why is it only about how good a frame is? Why is that metric we measure on? Prehaps being spoiled by the designs of Nidus and Mesa have ruined the Warframe community to the point where we can not accept even a slight deviation from concepts like such. Take Khora for example. I feel that many still hate her and think she is bad but that is completely unwaranted. She is nigh unkillable in endgame levels. Has utility, cc, and damage that scales. Yet because she didnt have and exalted whip she consider bad only because of her meh release. Min maxers probally wanted to do spin to win on her.

Lets look at Gara.  The secomd they nerfed the wall everyon forgot about her. Meanwhile, she still had infinite scaling damage and 90% that give that damage field to everyone with the dr as well. Also he first ability does made damage and is a hard cc. Did you know her fourth makes you do more damage to vitrified enemies and refreshes your 2?. Sure you dont really use her 3 but why was she thrown away?

Revenant Revenant Revenant. I am a huge advocate for this frame because of his one shot potential and his insane sustain making him, say with me, nigh unkillable. I feel that his pore is a garbage fire but his kit is sound and rather well designed. It is a closed system resource user and yes it is more efficient to use other frame but that's not the point of picking a frame yes? 

Garuda. Say it again! Nigh unkillable with massive infinite scaling dps tools in her kit and yet! People hate her and say she is bad. I am confused at this one in particular especially since i have started playing her even more. She is a monster when it comes to sustain and damage with some utility in there as well allowing you to use guns that you couldnt before because she adds slash!

Baruuk. ONE MORE TIME PEOPLE, nigh unkillable. Baruuk is well designed around his concept and evrrything in his kit makes sense. He just not played because people say he does scale but he does. He clears trash mobs well into the triple digits and if he slide attacks, can do the same for heavy units. He aslo offers alot of control with his ultimate.

The whole point im trying to make is that people are missing the essence of what warframe is. The warframes themselves. I played Nezha when he was "bad" and yet I never felt like he was bad at all. Sure i made post on the forum to ket some QoL things done but other than that i loved him deeply and played him because he was fun for me. I feel people have lost that thought. Warframe is not about having fun anymore. It is about how good a frame is and that to me is highly detrimental. But hey thats my two cents take it as you will

Oh you poor naive child.

we have an issue with big damage 4s now because DEs getting in the habit of just making that a frames 4th ability when they could do something more inventive.

We criticize a frame that’s not out yet because if we don’t like it then we won’t buy it, we don’t buy it DE loses money. We don’t want a frame to not be fun, we also don’t want a frame to be bad.

Khora gets a bad wrap because she did come to the game in really bad shape, she’s been improved but she’s still not amazing. Just good. And her 4th going from a potential exalted whip to an ability that’s the worst part of her kit didn’t help her reputation.

Gara started getting more respect lately, like due to some of the youtubers reclarifying just how good she is.

Revenant IS garbage. His 1 shot potential is over complicated when compared to other frames who have the potential to one shot at a greater rate with less effort. His 2 is over rated. Over all he’s a complete failure of frame design.

Nobody hates Garuda. She’s a little slow and clunky and could really stand to lose the reliance on efficiency for her 3, but she’s one of the one shot frames that makes Revenant redundant.

Baruuks 4 is underpowered. Having to rely on his slide attacks for kills at higher levels when it’s main focus is the giant energy waves is infuriating. I agree that he is well designed, mechanically. But his 4’s lacking performance against armor holds him back. It doesn’t matter that he can tank and CC (several frames can do that) when what’s supposed to be the high light of his kit is such a letdown.

You’re too focused on the idea that we only want frames to be good. But you forget that next to nobody plays Octavia because she’s not very fun to play. There’s also other variables like whether or not the frame is designed well. Are the synergies of the frame we’ll thought out. A frame like Revenant has instances of anti synergy that actively hurt his performance. There’s also the argument of does the frame match it’s intended theme. Which when they don’t can really make people upset. You’re not looking at the big picture.

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On 2019-04-14 at 5:39 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Honestly I would say that her 2 is going to be my most used ability on her. I saw how enemies behaved on that preview, they literally left cover to chase it, while firing. The 'aggro draw' decoys have gotten so much better over time, and I actually feel like I can trust them. It's definitely going to be an ability I can cast and just gun down enemies that aren't paying attention to me.

You're right about the double-tap, that's definitely going to be a tactic, because I really want to see how far I can take an Immortality Blind function in terms of damage mitigation, but I think that her 2 is going to have far more utility in its current state than you give it credit for. Even when you're invisible, enemies will blind-fire at you, but if they're shooting at something else entirely, that's a decent survival function.

What I was talking about in my comment is that it doesn't matter how much damage it can deal, or even that it can deal damage to enemies around with those flares, it it's not killing enemies in less than a second, then you're at the point where their damage can do the same to you. And even using this in the air won't help that tactic because enemies will blind-fire in the direction of damage if it's sustained, plus it's not exactly a stealthy ability.

As I pointed out in an earlier comment, unless its initial damage numbers are high enough to stand up to Sortie level enemies (to kill them before they can shoot back), you'll start using it and you will die using it before a crowd of the enemy do. But if it is high enough to do that, then it's a low-level nuke that people will just steer around rooms like old Ember and ruin even their own fun.

Every single time DE introduce an ability like this, it walks that line. Wisp does not have any sustained way (like Revenant does) to mitigate damage while using this function. You can jump and turn invisible, but without your Aim Glide you fall to the floor again in only a second or so. Revenant also has a movement function while using his ability and Wisp apparently does not.

She will have all the problems of this type of ability and none of the advantages to make it work.

Oh, haha, I wouldn't be a theorycrafter worth my salt if I didn't see the loopholes designed into every portion of abilities. Though it is a big assumption, DE is incredibly bad at balancing scaling abilities. Or, to cut to the chase, any ability that scales will vastly outperform abilities that do not. A simple example is the difference between just the damage tic of Ember's World on Fire Vs the damage tic of Equinox's Maim. Though it doesn't appear to scale it relies on damage that ignores armor. Though admittedly not nearly as effective as proportionally scaling up in damage vs higher level enemies, it maintains an effect that remains useful on enemies like grineer to begin with, and lasts longer in endurance runs because of it. Now I'm not saying these abilities are anywhere near balanced, but simply the fact that enemies armor increases against one and not the other, one has a built in scaling mechanic. Of course that's not to say there aren't significantly better examples of scaling, such as melee combo meter, spore infection level, Nidus's mutation. It's that these are so far above and beyond base damage of abilities modified only by power strength, that it is actually pointless to compare abilities without it.

We theorycrafters for example, are quite fond of Khora. Sure spiderkitty is a weird theme, but her 1 scales so absurdly that it outpaces most abilities in the game. Beyond an exalted version of the whip, this does what that never could: fix the loss of Acolyte mods. Even without the augment, she can increase base damage of her whip by 100%, slap a whole room full of people prenerf Atterax style, and it scales with the combo meter. This lets her outpace some crazy contenders even in damage, let alone survivability, even if they have one of the best Exalted weapons themselves. 

First I'll hit Wisps 2, then I'll check out her 4. For her 2? Sure, it's a decoy. In all it's glory. Causing enemies to shoot this, sure, will increase your survivability while it lasts. Guess my concern is currently we have Decoys/Molts/Dualities that don't disappear when they crash into a wall at high speed. Or a slightly higher piece of terrain. Or for no discernible reason perhaps due to collision detection. My chief worry is that the decoy ability doesn't actually do that job very well, and has 3 other abilities slapped on it to compensate. Any one of the abilities hidden in the decoy would actually be more desirable: a point and click teleport, a radial blind, or a near invulnerability window. The reliance on what is (I promise) going to be the shortest lived decoy in the game to do any of these things drags it down. For the record I inherently like the decoy ability, while thinking decoys on a stealth based frame should not alert enemies in the current version of stealth. It ruins stealth. I will fully admit that 2 has a lot of good, but like most abilities it is going to be used for it's most reliable purpose. Anything that doesn't just "happen" because of using it like that, will be ignored. 

So her 4. Now it wont take much effort to make this scale absurdly. Even increasing by as little as 500 dps will outpace most abilities in a couple of seconds. If they choose to do some other mathematical gymnastics, like increasing by a percentage of enemy hp, the ability will be a new gold standard. Damage numbers in this game largely happen "by accident" rather than intent by the designers. We exploit every ounce of effectiveness in a build, and discard the unwieldyy. Any amount of "scaling" will increase with ability power, it always does. Relying on this increasing even an impressive 2000 damage, an average for 4th ability nukes, is laughable. Rarely is an enemy killed with 2700 damage but lives with 2000 damage. However, if one is increasing a base damage of a much higher number, the effectiveness gained by that ability power is far greater. Against level 100 enemies even an increase of 10% of their hp/s in orders of magnitude higher than that. Okay, so weapons should always do better, but abilities like this are getting close. They are reliably closing the TTK gap between <lv30 enemies and >lv30 enemies. The hidden fun of her 4 is unconfirmed, though. From screenshot frames of the demonstration it appears to be proccing radiation. Including screenshot below, credit @Madway7. If this is the case then rest assured it will be the best nuke in the game. This will cause enemies to attack and aggro each other as long as presumably you have hit them with either the beam, or a "homing solar flare". This is Nyx's whole theme slapped carelessly as an afterthought on an ability that everyone is complaining is just another 4 to win nuke. Yeah, it is, but with an insurance policy.

Spoiler

rad.png

 

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5 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Is it so bad that a frame does damage? Is it so bad that frame lacks utility? I ask these cause I really need to know why people are so mad over a frame that is not out yet. You know that frames are their own style of gameplay right? Much less of what it used to be in the past, frames today are more freeform in their usage and play style coming with their own mini game of sorts. I feel as though, and I say this with respect, many min maxers, i myself am one to an extent, just do not have fun with th game anymore.

--SNIP--

The whole point im trying to make is that people are missing the essence of what warframe is. The warframes themselves. I played Nezha when he was "bad" and yet I never felt like he was bad at all. Sure i made post on the forum to ket some QoL things done but other than that i loved him deeply and played him because he was fun for me. I feel people have lost that thought. Warframe is not about having fun anymore. It is about how good a frame is and that to me is highly detrimental. But hey thats my two cents take it as you will

So this deserves a big rebuttal here. While the points individually made for those warframes in question could deserve their own threads, and already have multiple. To these points simply in general. Every Warframe should do damage of some sort. Every Warframe should have utility of some sort. So yes, it is quite bad if they only do damage and have no utility. No Warframe currently fits this description for good reason. Some are overly focused on damage (Ember) some are overly focused on utility (Vauban), but even these extremes have their counterpart in at least one ability. Ember can stun enemies with her 2, Vauban can do damage with his 1/4. This is not to say that someone cannot be particularly good at a strategy, or have some thematic specialization. It is very important that they do not just do one job very well to the exclusion of others. I've said it many times and I'm about to sit behind a table with the banner across the front :"Warframes should be a jack of all trades, then a master of one. Prove me wrong."

So the essence of Warframe can be described better: "I ran my starting Excalibur through every mission on the Starchart. In every situation I could re mod to face any challenge efficiently, and while it was difficult sometimes to do spy missions, they were not impossible." I don't like anything about Excalibur except his specter mechanics on Umbra. He was my starter frame back when he had super jump. People should still have this choice. It should be irrelevant as to which mission you are going into whether you need to change the character you are using. It needs to apply to all Warframes. In fact, what is ironic, is your own argument comes to this conclusion, but from a different path. Sure none of Nezha's abilities are the apex of their iteration. His 1 is a hillariously nerfed world on fire. His 2 is the first attempt at Wisps 2 with all the glorious popularity of use. His 3 is iron skin that you can put on allies and much more powerful before it capped at 90% damage reduction, allowing him to be one of the best invulnerability frames. His 4 is a watered down version of Excaliburs 3, which is pretty sad, and is only due to the fact that the latter is able to hit the same enemy multiple times. Yet you still used him. He was not "bad" in your mind. He could cc when neccesary, run around the map at near light speed, pull of some fun room clear at low levels, and reliably keep the squad alive. A combination no less of damage/utility, rather than an example of an extreme taken too far to the exclusion of others.

Importantly while describing the absolute necessity of utility in a kit. It's worth mentioning that it is also required to have some sort of damage. Now this may seem counterproductive, especially in the wave of the metagame focus on room clearing nuke abilities. It may seem that making effective use of utility as a necessity, rather than an afterthought of throwing millions of damage around, would be regression to the mean as far as balance between utility and damage goes. The concern is one cannot simply say a strategy is more effective, or exclude the other strategy from effectiveness entirely. This is because while I spout a good deal about these "rules" and "considerations" of design adamantly aimed at new Warframes not released, most already released Warframes have huge, widely observable problems in their abilities. Some go much further than changing a single Warframes ability. Scaling damage is a concern only because enemies scale infinitely. The design team did this to force people out of endless missions, only to cause a much deeper problem with balancing. Already weapons outdid most abilities, and this exacerbated it. Nowadays unless an ability can go well beyond the 2000 damage threshold that has been arbitrarily decided for ultimate abilities, it becomes worthless. In a world like this old champions like world on fire are replaced with new coming scaling abilities. Working against the original design of forcing people to leave when they could no longer kill enemies. Tuning numbers over and over like this is a waste of time. Instead, if one designs a well rounded kit that has an effective damage ability for when damage abilities are good, and utility abilities for when that strategy cannot work, a lot of effort can be saved redesigning kits flawed from the beginning.

Look at the Eidolons, Profit Taker, Exploiter, and the Thumpers. Even old favorites like Nullifiers, Disruptors, and Comba. The development team has been relatively transparent in the fact they want to offset the usefulness of nukes that can simply wipe out an entire spawn set of enemies. In these scenarios it doesn't matter if you have the best room clear in the game, they are unaffected by it. Even CC, which has largely been overshadowed in terms of effectiveness, is unreliable. What abilities will survive this transition are not those that clear a whole room with a button press, or prevent the whole room from moving at all. It is abilities that add effectiveness to the viable strategy, in these cases, weapon damage. Since such a concerted effort is being made to change the battlefield from something a little less extreme than Dynasty Warriors with guns, it is necessary that something is not reliant on the ability to lock-down or kill an entire room to be considered effective. 

People are often complaining about these enemies or encounters in general, because they are so contradictory to the rest of the game in design. We are in fact used to everything bowing at the Majesty of our abilities. When an enemy is simply unaffected by anything that a warframe brings, then what becomes important is how well it can survive. This scenario is so begging for a "rip the bandage off" kind of fix because this slow burn just causes players to play what is necessary, rather than what they want. Out of left field for example, if they changed molecular prime (Nova's 4) to a buff on allies that doubles their damage, slows/speeds up enemies while they do so, and causes them to explode in the same way when killed, the ability is virtually identical. The difference would be in these fights she would still provide the team with double damage, a far cry from multipliers possessed by the likes of Chroma and ilk. It is no fun for abilities to work differently in these situations, and is often balance destroying.

All this to say that of course, it is necessary for every Warframe to have a reliable damage-dealing ability. Every Warframe needs utility abilities beyond damage, and beyond crowd control. It may not seem so on the surface but it is a balance requirement embedded deeper than even status effect procs. There will be a time, multiple likely, when the Metagame changes. When it does many Warframes will lose the usefulness of, lets say a genre, of abilities. If that is their only "thing", they have been "nerfed to the ground". Fundamentally, we need to make sure a redesign pass isn't required for every Warframe every time a balance decision is made for the game. To do this, we give each a perfectly reliable ability of each type, even if it ultimately banishes the notion of Utility Warframe, or Damage Warframe. 

Since its been a few pages, and since once again it seems forum moderation breaks links. Here are the two different posts whereby I design kits for Wisp with respect of fundamental design concerns. Both represent a themed, and in each case specialized Warframe. In the first case here is my take on a well designed stealth warframe. Rather than being forced to stay in stealth permanently, it has the capability of vastly buffing ally damage and providing healing/energy utility through the ult:

Ghost Wisp Version

 

In the second version, as per request by @Datam4ss, I designed a light themed damage based Warframe:

 

Master of Light Wisp

Even in this version, which totally ignores staples of stealth in favor of much more agressive tactics, still begs the question of each abilities effectiveness given undesirable scenarios. In each case, even while all are designed to add damage in some way, care is taken to make sure that it will remain effective in every fight from a lowly Crewman, to the Expoiter. It does so by realizing that even the highest damage dealing abilities cannot compete with weapons, unless they are based off weapons themselves. It does so by making sure enemies cannot be blanket immune to her efforts, even if the enemy cannot be affected by abilities. It does so by realizing a properly designed press it to kill button doesn't need a partner in a kit. 

 

Either one of these, though I am strongly in favor of the thematic flavor of the first, would be a better kit mechanically. Bandaiding an improper mechanic like her totems is the very tip of the iceberg and remains simply the most obvious concern. So much more is wrong with the kit. Though this could easily be said about the vast majority of Warframes, starting out broken because the game at large remains in a state of broken balance is unfortunate, and the way of at least Khora, if not others more recently. Eventually DE largely fixed Khora mechanically, though her reputation remains stained. I'd still wager she has a long way to go before an ideal kit, but it was obvious from the beginning her abilities could not remain as they were. 

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Im personally still much more in favor of a stealth based Wisp... And I thought that that was gonne be what we got since I saw her design (floating ghost) and companion weapon (scout rifle/smg with optional silencer?)

I also made my own take on a ghost themed warframe https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1081235-wisp-reviewearly-feedback/?do=findComment&comment=10669229

My take was based on a new take on stealth, debuffing, CC and life draining (since the idea of a ghost eating life force or souls seemed appealing)

However... I would be happy with almost anything besides her current kit relying on deployable buff altars, which they JUST started reworking Vauban for beingoverly reliant on (immobile deployables that is)

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17 minutes ago, Sekan said:

Im personally still much more in favor of a stealth based Wisp... And I thought that that was gonne be what we got since I saw her design (floating ghost) and companion weapon (scout rifle/smg with optional silencer?)

I also made my own take on a ghost themed warframe https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1081235-wisp-reviewearly-feedback/?do=findComment&comment=10669229

My take was based on a new take on stealth, debuffing, CC and life draining (since the idea of a ghost eating life force or souls seemed appealing)

However... I would be happy with almost anything besides her current kit relying on deployable buff altars, which they JUST started reworking Vauban for beingoverly reliant on (immobile deployables that is)

I honestly liked yours, especially the flavor. I felt there was a good amount of overlap with my design and ultimately you were more ambitious in systems that weren't already present. Ultimately we both ended up describing a stealth frame that utilized possession to effectiveness in both stealth and endless missions. You much better described how something like possession would work, I simply took for granted that basically what you described is how I imagined it would work. You took care to make sure she provided team benefits even outside of herself, and kept abilities from being requisite of each other. Yours would as well be a better choice than the originally proposed kit. There are fundamental differences and trade offs.

We have vastly different opinions on the power level of possession. To me it would be a nice utility that can be used to avoid detection primarily, and going Rambo second. Indeed I hardly see why keeping the possessed target alive would be worth much, perhaps a good reason why I made it her 1. Your teleport is vastly more user friendly. Mine is totally wrapped in reaching a target like Ash's or Loki's. By your description not only could you teleport to a location of choice, but would end it in stealth. Impressive. Since it would be nice to see Hydroid's pool used as an effective stealth mechanic, I like it. I big time think that if she is alerting enemies it should be by killing them outright. This is because the stealth affinity mechanics stop it's gravy train if you alert something and then kill it, even if no alarms occur. Your debuff alerting vs mine un alerting is a big trade off in terms of stealth effectiveness. Our numbers irrelevant. Your stealth is cool, admittedly I'm more fond of damage not alerting than otherwise. Doesn't really have a precedent in game so I like it. I heavily relied on the passive, which I saw as allowing a more feet off the ground approach that rewarded mobility chiefly. 

Then the elephant, I left in her original 4 relatively unchanged. I felt using as many assets that were already present in some form in the game would make it easier for the development team to ultimately implement the changes. I took care to avoid mechanics unused, as admittedly did you. I had a slot left for what I have mentioned multiple times as an absolute necessity, a damage ability in a kit that had very little to do with damage. I was impressed by the aesthetics, but not the flavor of the original. Changing it by adding health and energy restore, increasing the damage against a target you had possessed, and absorbing conspicuous enemy bodies felt like the right nudge. It made a reason why a stealth frame would have any business nuking a room as per flavor, and mechanically ensuring it's viability by attaching utility effects that would survive if the damage was effectively removed. To me, this is where yours suffers the most. There isn't much a response in survival outside of invisibly draining enemies which immediately loses effectiveness if the damage is removed, and due to the ratio of enemy damage vs enemy health, multipliers would have to be pretty high to make possession damage worth it, and then unfortunately continue to scale directly proportionally with enemy level. As enemies get higher level, their resistances increase much faster than their damage, admittedly both our possession abilities would have to account for it. 

All in all, we are like minded. Yours represents a knowledge of effective abilities and synergistic combinations within the kit and beyond. Both would play quite similarly, with mine airborne more often and yours in the architecture. We are talking the difference between wraiths and poltergeists here, both acceptable analogs of wisp.    

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13 minutes ago, F8ted said:

Then the elephant, I left in her original 4 relatively unchanged. I felt using as many assets that were already present in some form in the game would make it easier for the development team to ultimately implement the changes. I took care to avoid mechanics unused, as admittedly did you. I had a slot left for what I have mentioned multiple times as an absolute necessity, a damage ability in a kit that had very little to do with damage. I was impressed by the aesthetics, but not the flavor of the original. Changing it by adding health and energy restore, increasing the damage against a target you had possessed, and absorbing conspicuous enemy bodies felt like the right nudge. It made a reason why a stealth frame would have any business nuking a room as per flavor, and mechanically ensuring it's viability by attaching utility effects that would survive if the damage was effectively removed. To me, this is where yours suffers the most. There isn't much a response in survival outside of invisibly draining enemies which immediately loses effectiveness if the damage is removed, and due to the ratio of enemy damage vs enemy health, multipliers would have to be pretty high to make possession damage worth it, and then unfortunately continue to scale directly proportionally with enemy level. As enemies get higher level, their resistances increase much faster than their damage, admittedly both our possession abilities would have to account for it.     

This is just as a response to damage scaling. My idea for the life drain mechanic is that it will used a fixed % of an enemies health, regardless of defences. if we say it drains 10% pr second (an arbitrary number), and an enemy has 20 health, it would then drain 2 health pr second. If that enemy instead had 10000 health, it would drain 1000 pr second. The idea being that the damage would "scale" by ignoring enemy health numbers and defences, and just putting a timer on them until they die. A timer which weapons or allies abilities would obviously speed up. In general I like the idea that she plays with life force, and has ways of using enemy HP pools as a tool. As with her "deactivation" of her 4th ability. I dont feel like a 1-ability kill is a problem in warframe (ash's teleport with covert lethality?), so that's why I baked a potential 100% hp damage into the 4th ability. With the possibility of this causing an AoE explosion dealing scaling damage due to enemies simply having more health to "explode with" at higher levels.

I decided to fully change her 4th ability simply for the reason that I would love to see it used on someone where it fits and would shine a lot more... like ember or a sun-based shaman warframe 😛

But yes I do think we had similar goals in mind. I would be more than happy to play your iteration as well. The black hole vibe of your version of her 4th seems like it would be great fun to use both at low and high levels of play 🙂

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Hey, you make some good points, but you also kind of miss what I'm going for here.

In your other comments you described a stealth Wisp, which... I don't know if that's necessary, but some of the ideas were okay. Although you have kind of missed a problem with some of the ideas around possession... I won't get into those.

My comment on Wisp's current 4, though, isn't about whether it scales or not, it's about the question of why she has the ability in this style in the first place. And that I don't, in all honesty, believe that it fits with any of her other abilities and the fact that none of the shown abilities actually seem to support her having this.

8 hours ago, F8ted said:

So her 4. Now it wont take much effort to make this scale absurdly.

This is kind of what I was saying was a bad thing about it. There's not much that would be needed to make it scale, true. There's not much that's needed to make it suck, also true.

That's the problem. It's one of those abilities that's either over, or under powered and that the balance point is so ridiculously fine that it shouldn't be walked at all.

Moreover it's not it being a damage ability that's the problem here, it's that it's a locked animation that you steer around and point at the enemy until they die or you run out of energy, all while you have precisely zero ways to mitigate incoming damage from sources that you're not shooting, because as proven by frames like Nyx, the Confusion status still allows for enemies near you to shoot you. On top of that, are those flares limited by an actual range? Because they're certainly limited by travel time, and I've seen caster frames die in a much shorter time than it took those flares to hit something.

This ability puts the frame in a glass-cannon state, which would be fine if you were only facing a single target, or a short corridor of targets, but in Warframe you aren't, there's always a free Bombard Rocket arcing in, there's always another trooper shooting from cover, there's always another Sapper Orb about to land and another sniper at range, another Mutalist about to hit you with the goop or a toxin cloud, or something. And while firing off that laser, there's nothing she can do about those. The other frames that do this, that have a locked animation, all have some way to mitigate this, either with damage reduction abilities, straight up invulnerability, or having it be a wide-range radial effect instead.

Taken in isolation, her current 4 is not a bad damage dealer. Taken as a Warframe, her current 4 is diametrically opposed to the shown 1, 2 and 3, because it lets her use/get the benefits of none of them (barring the small buffs from her 1 if she's already placed them).

Further, if she already has a radial damage ability that she can place a source for with 1 and trigger at any range on her 3, why is her 4 just more damage? That 3 could be amazing, if you give her a better version and the ability to scale that damage a little. This would free up her 4 to be something way better, that benefits a whole team, one that allows the whole team to kill faster and affects enemies in a consistent mechanical fashion to play into the damage of her 3.

As a theory crafter, what would I be doing if I didn't consider how her current 4 has no basic synergy (unlike the forced synergy of her current 1/3 combo, both of which I also want to change...) at all? Not even with basic movement, because it's a locked animation...

I've never said that her 4 would be bad at dealing damage, I've said that the type of 4 they've given her is bad for her as a frame. It was on Garuda, it pretty much is on Revenant too even though he has an invulnerability function, and even Hildryn's 4 would be better if there were no fixed animation lock making her hover around, if she could run and parkour with Aegis Storm (even if she was still locked into using Balefire instead of regular weapons) the ability would be downright OP as balls...

Animation lock is just not a good mechanic for any frame ^^

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Hey, you make some good points, but you also kind of miss what I'm going for here.

In your other comments you described a stealth Wisp, which... I don't know if that's necessary, but some of the ideas were okay. Although you have kind of missed a problem with some of the ideas around possession... I won't get into those.

My comment on Wisp's current 4, though, isn't about whether it scales or not, it's about the question of why she has the ability in this style in the first place. And that I don't, in all honesty, believe that it fits with any of her other abilities and the fact that none of the shown abilities actually seem to support her having this.

This is kind of what I was saying was a bad thing about it. There's not much that would be needed to make it scale, true. There's not much that's needed to make it suck, also true.

That's the problem. It's one of those abilities that's either over, or under powered and that the balance point is so ridiculously fine that it shouldn't be walked at all.

Moreover it's not it being a damage ability that's the problem here, it's that it's a locked animation that you steer around and point at the enemy until they die or you run out of energy, all while you have precisely zero ways to mitigate incoming damage from sources that you're not shooting, because as proven by frames like Nyx, the Confusion status still allows for enemies near you to shoot you. On top of that, are those flares limited by an actual range? Because they're certainly limited by travel time, and I've seen caster frames die in a much shorter time than it took those flares to hit something.

This ability puts the frame in a glass-cannon state, which would be fine if you were only facing a single target, or a short corridor of targets, but in Warframe you aren't, there's always a free Bombard Rocket arcing in, there's always another trooper shooting from cover, there's always another Sapper Orb about to land and another sniper at range, another Mutalist about to hit you with the goop or a toxin cloud, or something. And while firing off that laser, there's nothing she can do about those. The other frames that do this, that have a locked animation, all have some way to mitigate this, either with damage reduction abilities, straight up invulnerability, or having it be a wide-range radial effect instead.

Taken in isolation, her current 4 is not a bad damage dealer. Taken as a Warframe, her current 4 is diametrically opposed to the shown 1, 2 and 3, because it lets her use/get the benefits of none of them (barring the small buffs from her 1 if she's already placed them).

Further, if she already has a radial damage ability that she can place a source for with 1 and trigger at any range on her 3, why is her 4 just more damage? That 3 could be amazing, if you give her a better version and the ability to scale that damage a little. This would free up her 4 to be something way better, that benefits a whole team, one that allows the whole team to kill faster and affects enemies in a consistent mechanical fashion to play into the damage of her 3.

As a theory crafter, what would I be doing if I didn't consider how her current 4 has no basic synergy (unlike the forced synergy of her current 1/3 combo, both of which I also want to change...) at all? Not even with basic movement, because it's a locked animation...

I've never said that her 4 would be bad at dealing damage, I've said that the type of 4 they've given her is bad for her as a frame. It was on Garuda, it pretty much is on Revenant too even though he has an invulnerability function, and even Hildryn's 4 would be better if there were no fixed animation lock making her hover around, if she could run and parkour with Aegis Storm (even if she was still locked into using Balefire instead of regular weapons) the ability would be downright OP as balls...

Animation lock is just not a good mechanic for any frame ^^

Well since you might have more insightful criticism about possession than "it's no good because ghosts suck", it kind of makes me 😞 Nonetheless, I see your point as far as channeled abilities go. In general, as a theorycrafter I hate them. While I realize they have given her a combination of Radial Blind and Adaptation in a decoy ability, stealth when she jumps, and confusion procs when she breathes, enemies are a wily bunch. Now a lot of your comments seem to assume she cannot just also be wily and dodge some missiles and step out of sapper orbs, but some validly do propose that enemies exist and by sitting locked in an animation, even while mobile, can be a deadly level of inconvenient. Since one cannot simply shoot, use abilities, or perhaps even jump, a lot of the toolbox is lost. It's true that in every situation removing the animation would make the ability far more powerful. To accommodate we could imagine the effect emanating in whatever way from her belly, and allow the full scope of movement. Would this even allow the same use of the ability? Well no. You could only target things that you were shooting at or meleeing. It would turn it into some permanently on version of Exalted Blade's damage waves, that didn't scale with combo counter. 

Now I'm not saying you are proposing something preposterous like that. In fact, if reading your preferences it seems you believe in the viability of her 3. Now again I have nothing against a point blank area of effect ability. Some of the "best" abilities in the game are press 4 to release a 50m burst of death centered on yourself. I'm not worried about having the scaling room wiping ability being on a Warframe's 3 instead of their 4. That seems to cost 25 less energy. My concern is that with some notable exceptions, like say Nidus's 1, abilities with good nuking throughput are not often found less than 100 energy. Even then those are hit and miss. Some like Crush are absolutely crippled by the lock in animation, while others like Soundquake get better when you stay in the animation. Even in strange situations, like Peacekeeper, it can be beneficial to have a more focused shooting area to deal with priority targets.

Would I be happier if Wisp was more well known for a weird copy of fire blast instead of a super laser? Probably not. Especially since you also seem to favor the synergy of her currently proposed 1 and her currently proposed 3. To answer the question why is her 4 better when you can cast her 1 to aim her 3 then cast her 3. <-----Right there. That's 100 energy. To go through an animation to throw a buff at the enemy. Then go through an animation to use your 3. When you are complaining about being locked into a single animation you can simply aim at any point when you use that. Let's actually imagine what it would look like if you smashed her 1 into her 3. Kind of like they smashed Loki's 2, Excaliburs 2, and Nezha's 2 into her 2. In this case we get an ability that radiates damage from yourself, radiates damage at the first surface impacted, and can spend more energy to repeat this process, assuming necessary. Throw a buff you and your team can pick up where the enemy dies and you even see some of Titania come out in her kit. Except that..... is the description..... of her 4. Barring that you have to repeat the animations rather than being locked into them. Even if it scales.... Why?

 

A postscript answer: because you can actually regenerate energy during repeated casts and not channeled abilities. Something that has not escaped me, even from the beginning. The biggest difference between repeating animations and channeling an ability is the fact that you cannot regenerate energy via Energy Siphon, Zenurik school, or Energy Restores. Since this inherently would benefit a quick press nuke disproportionately relative to a channeled nuke, each iteration in my designs included the line: restores health and energy to nearby allies. This offsets the fact that she cannot regenerate through other means, but hell sounds like we are arguing about what other designers have made. 

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On 2019-04-06 at 2:40 AM, ShikiRen said:

So, just saw the Wisp ability reveal and I have to ask : DE, are you even capable of learning from past mistakes?

So uh, one thing just wanna remind u real quick

DE ain't EA, DE listen to us, EA don't.

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3 hours ago, Sekan said:

This is just as a response to damage scaling. My idea for the life drain mechanic is that it will used a fixed % of an enemies health, regardless of defences. if we say it drains 10% pr second (an arbitrary number), and an enemy has 20 health, it would then drain 2 health pr second. If that enemy instead had 10000 health, it would drain 1000 pr second. The idea being that the damage would "scale" by ignoring enemy health numbers and defences, and just putting a timer on them until they die. A timer which weapons or allies abilities would obviously speed up. In general I like the idea that she plays with life force, and has ways of using enemy HP pools as a tool. As with her "deactivation" of her 4th ability. I dont feel like a 1-ability kill is a problem in warframe (ash's teleport with covert lethality?), so that's why I baked a potential 100% hp damage into the 4th ability. With the possibility of this causing an AoE explosion dealing scaling damage due to enemies simply having more health to "explode with" at higher levels.

I decided to fully change her 4th ability simply for the reason that I would love to see it used on someone where it fits and would shine a lot more... like ember or a sun-based shaman warframe 😛

But yes I do think we had similar goals in mind. I would be more than happy to play your iteration as well. The black hole vibe of your version of her 4th seems like it would be great fun to use both at low and high levels of play 🙂

Oh I am sorry I didn't intend to mean your ability would fall off, or not scale, when I said "draining enemies which immediately loses effectiveness if the damage is removed". I litterally meant to account for scenarios whereby enemies like Thumpers, Eidolons, Bosses and their ilk prevent ability damage. I was being incredibly, though unfortunately vaguely, pedantic about a paradox needing to exist. A damage ability that is useful when a damage ability cannot do damage. Now it perhaps wasnt fair to hold you to such a standard when frankly DE cannot be held to the same standard. Even further while admittedly stealth has very little to do with offense, it is still a unique utility worthwhile when the damage portion of the ability is rendered moot. 

Also when used properly I don't mind an instant kill, especially if they are vulnerable to covert lethality. Like Stinging Thorn + Covert Lethality works on everyone, and is only slightly more frustrating to pull off with the new melee system. Now again, and since I am in agreement with like 99.9999% of what you are saying, our perceptions of the effectiveness of the actual possession effect must be vastly different. I see it being very hard to make this anything more than a gimmick outside of some highly exploitable situations like Ancient Healers, or Bursas. Even so I like, don't think that has to be the thing of possession. Like your explosion on cancel I felt it may be a useful ability to focus an intermediate level target like a heavy gunner while largely using her abilities to actually be effective. I put all this on my version's 1 for example. Feeling a fleeting 25 energy should separate you from your vessel, not 100. Granted, you possess everything, not just people, so perhaps the option is worth the distinction. 

Definitely feel her 4 is a little too flashy. I'd take it over world on fire currently, but hell, I have so much denial wrapped up in my Ember that I'm self proccing fire with a thrown weapon to boost my power strength. I wouldn't mind seeing my second redesign see reality. The same care was put into balancing it, no longer truly worried about stealth, but I still felt it would have been out of place for her looks. I wouldn't even feel comfortable having it be an Ember remake, as she deserves some homage to her initial form. I am not happy about some hoops that I jump through in this game, hence this discussion. I am already prepared with any mod/strategy to make Wisp usable in whichever form she drops in. Particularly I would like to see how crazy long I can keep her airborne.  

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1 hour ago, F8ted said:

Now a lot of your comments seem to assume she cannot just also be wily and dodge some missiles and step out of sapper orbs, but some validly do propose that enemies exist and by sitting locked in an animation, even while mobile, can be a deadly level of inconvenient.

You see, from experience of playing a lot of support frames and a heavy amount of a frame that only has to worry about AoE effects (Zephyr, if you didn't already realise ^^) I have to say that the nuker frames really don't have a lot of sway over things that appear and launch while they're casting.

So, for example, the Bombard Rockets would be very hard to dodge if you were in a jogging-pace speed animation instead of with full movement faculties. Also, I know of very few abilities that actually directly damage Sapper Orbs before and sometimes after they begin their damage phase, and if that's in your way down a corridor and you're, just for argument's sake, using an ability that takes up half the screen with a giant flaring laser of sun energy, how likely are you to notice and not walk through a little circle of blue on the ground capable of reducing most frames to bleed-out in seconds?

I mean... I've genuinely seen players walk around a corner into an Ancient Roar (which only has an effective range of about a meter or so) and die nearly instantly. Hazards like that are not always avoidable, and especially not so when you're in a locked animation as we saw in then DevStream.

It really is the bane of an Oberon player's life to not only have to go pick up yet another downed team member, but also to have to wade through the multiple Sapper Orbs that they didn't even notice (usually in Operator mode, because, you know, logic).

So that's personal experience of players using abilities that they think will be awesome and flashy, but then they don't notice that they're not killing everything before it kills them.

1 hour ago, F8ted said:

Now I'm not saying you are proposing something preposterous like that. In fact, if reading your preferences it seems you believe in the viability of her 3. Now again I have nothing against a point blank area of effect ability.

Actually, see, this is where I had my idea and really wanted to work with it.

So, my original point was that abilities have to do something first, and then any 'synergy' or 'bonus' is extra for when you've put in additional casts to achieve that. So the current 1/3 combo is kind of useless, as the 1 is too bitty and compartmentalised, and the 3 literally has no function without the 1.

My proposal was to take the idea of a 'buff banner' placement ability and use it in a more logical and ally-friendly way, and then give a bonus effect to the caster for having multiple casts.

So her 1, I proposed to switch it to a limited number of 'buff banners' (that I dubbed 'groves') where all three buffs that Wisp currently applies are then applied just for coming into contact with it. I think that a placed location for buffing a limited duration can work in Warframe because of the many, many game modes that require durations of times spent in a single location, or backtracking, or even just outright camping. But if you have to cast three times just to get each individual buff effect, and then travel to all three totems to gain full buffs? Too broken-up, too fiddly. One location, run through it, you have buffs. Works even if you just cast one at the beginning of a Capture because, as shown, it features a speed buff too.

The bonus is that Wisp could then transport between her 1 casts, her Groves, able to cast one in a location, go elsewhere, cast a second, and then jump back to the first is a mechanic that is completely unused in Warframe currently, and could create some great options for players in Survivals, Defection and so on (warping between the A, B and C points on Defection, particularly, would be very helpful). Limit the amount of Groves to 3, and you're then encouraged to put all three down in strategic places.

Two simple effects; a buff for everyone and a transport for Wisp herself. But potentially, as I've said, very, very useful.

Her 3, then, is where I'd take advantage of it a little. A radial damage burst, centred on Wisp, is the basic initial form of the ability. The scaling for the solo cast is that it deals multiplied damage for the number of enemies around you. Synergise that with her 2 by default so that you use the teleport/blind/invulnerability to get into the locaiton with the most enemies, temporarily stagger them so they can't move, and then drop a 3 for damage. Simple, clean, no mess and no fuss. Considering this combo to move into areas with impunity, you could even drastically limit the range, so that without dropping her Power Strength, you could not get an area nuke, just a Nova AMD bomb (speaking of, that's one of the most instantly damaging and fastest repeatable DPS functions in the game. On a 2 cast. Along with the single most damaging ability in game, if you use the correct weapon combo, of Magnetise on Mag's 2... high damage abilities appear wherever, my friend ^^).

The bonus effect is that, as DE previewed, the effect also radiates from her placed 1 Groves. And each of them gets the same bonus, where the number of enemies within range boosts the damage to compensate. You only get the 3 groves, instead of the current 6 wells, but the potential is higher.

A smart player would then see the combo where you could place these Groves tactically so that casting from the mid-point between all three would create a potentially much higher radius (a balance would be that the scaling isn't based on the overall ability range, but the enemies within the range of each radial point) of damage. But rarely is that going to be perfect. A smarter player would place groves within each others' radius and cast from within them to get four overlapping instances of damage that all share many of the enemies that multiply the damage. And that may be more likely on things like Defense or Mobile Defense rather than on a run-and-gun, but it's possible ^^

But then... this is where my whole idea for a new 4 came in.

Back in the earlier comments, I proposed 'Lost Souls', an area of effect similar to Oberon's Hallowed Ground, but with some different functions that I have seen in game, but not used enough so far.

So the proposal was to have a 4 that created a low-level carpet of fog (just like Hallowed Ground with its grass), that stuns on cast, applies a damage multiplier to them (a small one, like 20% affected by Strength) and can set enemies to the Unaware state. If, of course, they come out of the stun and they're supposed to be attacking a Defense objective? If they were attacking you? If you had a Rescue Target? They carry on. They retarget the objective and keep going.

If, however, there are Groves within the area of Lost Souls? They come out of the stagger and are drawn towards the nearest Grove (think Djinn's Fatal Attraction, it only lasts a few seconds for each enemy, so make use of it where it's tactically best to place it). You can see where I'm going here, can't you? Enemies are drawn towards Groves and you can press 3 on the clustered enemies. To be a little cheeky, I also suggested that 3 deals double damage, not the regular damage modifier, to enemies in Lost Souls.

That double-damage is so that, if you cast it for the stun, then cast 3 without placing groves down, you still get the bonus, you still get a better result. The damage multiplier is so that enemies can also be killed by allies just for being there. You don't even need her 1 or her 3 to get the damage, you can simply stun-and-gun. See? Effects as default, and then bonus effects for your other casts, if and only if, you put in that extra effort.

Now, what I count as the best bit of all this, is that it keeps the first three abilities that DE wanted to give her, the ones they were so proud of, but in a more streamlined and potentially better form. It then gets rid of an animation-locked damage ability and makes for a wide area buff to everything you do and for your entire team to take advantage of too.

It's that hybrid between Damage and CC that everyone really wants out of the game right now, the balance between utility and killing the enemy.

What do you think?

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7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You see, from experience of playing a lot of support frames and a heavy amount of a frame that only has to worry about AoE effects (Zephyr, if you didn't already realise ^^) I have to say that the nuker frames really don't have a lot of sway over things that appear and launch while they're casting.

So, for example, the Bombard Rockets would be very hard to dodge if you were in a jogging-pace speed animation instead of with full movement faculties. Also, I know of very few abilities that actually directly damage Sapper Orbs before and sometimes after they begin their damage phase, and if that's in your way down a corridor and you're, just for argument's sake, using an ability that takes up half the screen with a giant flaring laser of sun energy, how likely are you to notice and not walk through a little circle of blue on the ground capable of reducing most frames to bleed-out in seconds?

I mean... I've genuinely seen players walk around a corner into an Ancient Roar (which only has an effective range of about a meter or so) and die nearly instantly. Hazards like that are not always avoidable, and especially not so when you're in a locked animation as we saw in then DevStream.

It really is the bane of an Oberon player's life to not only have to go pick up yet another downed team member, but also to have to wade through the multiple Sapper Orbs that they didn't even notice (usually in Operator mode, because, you know, logic).

So that's personal experience of players using abilities that they think will be awesome and flashy, but then they don't notice that they're not killing everything before it kills them.

Actually, see, this is where I had my idea and really wanted to work with it.

So, my original point was that abilities have to do something first, and then any 'synergy' or 'bonus' is extra for when you've put in additional casts to achieve that. So the current 1/3 combo is kind of useless, as the 1 is too bitty and compartmentalised, and the 3 literally has no function without the 1.

My proposal was to take the idea of a 'buff banner' placement ability and use it in a more logical and ally-friendly way, and then give a bonus effect to the caster for having multiple casts.

So her 1, I proposed to switch it to a limited number of 'buff banners' (that I dubbed 'groves') where all three buffs that Wisp currently applies are then applied just for coming into contact with it. I think that a placed location for buffing a limited duration can work in Warframe because of the many, many game modes that require durations of times spent in a single location, or backtracking, or even just outright camping. But if you have to cast three times just to get each individual buff effect, and then travel to all three totems to gain full buffs? Too broken-up, too fiddly. One location, run through it, you have buffs. Works even if you just cast one at the beginning of a Capture because, as shown, it features a speed buff too.

The bonus is that Wisp could then transport between her 1 casts, her Groves, able to cast one in a location, go elsewhere, cast a second, and then jump back to the first is a mechanic that is completely unused in Warframe currently, and could create some great options for players in Survivals, Defection and so on (warping between the A, B and C points on Defection, particularly, would be very helpful). Limit the amount of Groves to 3, and you're then encouraged to put all three down in strategic places.

Two simple effects; a buff for everyone and a transport for Wisp herself. But potentially, as I've said, very, very useful.

Her 3, then, is where I'd take advantage of it a little. A radial damage burst, centred on Wisp, is the basic initial form of the ability. The scaling for the solo cast is that it deals multiplied damage for the number of enemies around you. Synergise that with her 2 by default so that you use the teleport/blind/invulnerability to get into the locaiton with the most enemies, temporarily stagger them so they can't move, and then drop a 3 for damage. Simple, clean, no mess and no fuss. Considering this combo to move into areas with impunity, you could even drastically limit the range, so that without dropping her Power Strength, you could not get an area nuke, just a Nova AMD bomb (speaking of, that's one of the most instantly damaging and fastest repeatable DPS functions in the game. On a 2 cast. Along with the single most damaging ability in game, if you use the correct weapon combo, of Magnetise on Mag's 2... high damage abilities appear wherever, my friend ^^).

The bonus effect is that, as DE previewed, the effect also radiates from her placed 1 Groves. And each of them gets the same bonus, where the number of enemies within range boosts the damage to compensate. You only get the 3 groves, instead of the current 6 wells, but the potential is higher.

A smart player would then see the combo where you could place these Groves tactically so that casting from the mid-point between all three would create a potentially much higher radius (a balance would be that the scaling isn't based on the overall ability range, but the enemies within the range of each radial point) of damage. But rarely is that going to be perfect. A smarter player would place groves within each others' radius and cast from within them to get four overlapping instances of damage that all share many of the enemies that multiply the damage. And that may be more likely on things like Defense or Mobile Defense rather than on a run-and-gun, but it's possible ^^

But then... this is where my whole idea for a new 4 came in.

Back in the earlier comments, I proposed 'Lost Souls', an area of effect similar to Oberon's Hallowed Ground, but with some different functions that I have seen in game, but not used enough so far.

So the proposal was to have a 4 that created a low-level carpet of fog (just like Hallowed Ground with its grass), that stuns on cast, applies a damage multiplier to them (a small one, like 20% affected by Strength) and can set enemies to the Unaware state. If, of course, they come out of the stun and they're supposed to be attacking a Defense objective? If they were attacking you? If you had a Rescue Target? They carry on. They retarget the objective and keep going.

If, however, there are Groves within the area of Lost Souls? They come out of the stagger and are drawn towards the nearest Grove (think Djinn's Fatal Attraction, it only lasts a few seconds for each enemy, so make use of it where it's tactically best to place it). You can see where I'm going here, can't you? Enemies are drawn towards Groves and you can press 3 on the clustered enemies. To be a little cheeky, I also suggested that 3 deals double damage, not the regular damage modifier, to enemies in Lost Souls.

That double-damage is so that, if you cast it for the stun, then cast 3 without placing groves down, you still get the bonus, you still get a better result. The damage multiplier is so that enemies can also be killed by allies just for being there. You don't even need her 1 or her 3 to get the damage, you can simply stun-and-gun. See? Effects as default, and then bonus effects for your other casts, if and only if, you put in that extra effort.

Now, what I count as the best bit of all this, is that it keeps the first three abilities that DE wanted to give her, the ones they were so proud of, but in a more streamlined and potentially better form. It then gets rid of an animation-locked damage ability and makes for a wide area buff to everything you do and for your entire team to take advantage of too.

It's that hybrid between Damage and CC that everyone really wants out of the game right now, the balance between utility and killing the enemy.

What do you think?

Okay then I had to go dig through the thread yet again to view your original post, but with information in mind, I think I can better comment. To be sure your version of an ult is impressive. Strong utility vibe coming from most redesigns and the ult. Perfectly cohesive with the rest of the kit you have designed. As you have just mentioned the synergy does render the combination more useful. Lowering the number of casts required for her 1 to be effective on it's own is great. Giving it a dual purpose as an enemy tractor beam to lure enemies to their deaths is visibly awesome. Kind of wish Lantern had such grace. I love that the idea of keeping enemies from being alerted was actually more widespread than I thought. A major downer any time you are trying to stealth is the loss of stealth affinity bonus. It may be a little presumptuous of me, but I would actually imagine this would allow one to kill enemies with abilities and maintain that bonus. That's spectacular. In addition having a room sized place able buff is significantly more ergonomic than otherwise, and that's exactly what you propose Lost Soul's does. 

If anything there is one major hangup I am having, it is very similar to your hangup over mine. I believe the absolute notion of having these totem buffs is absurd, and you believe having an animation locked channel ability is absurd. Both have proper places in the game in very rare, largely still useful abilities. Referencing Nidus for example, his Ravenous "Buff area" is quite a powerful ability. Mesa's Peacekeeper "Channel Lock" is basically the foundation of it's usability. We have both taken steps to reduce the initial concerns these types of abilities by their very nature possess. To make a place able buff do more than a place able buff is to increase it's viability. To make a channeled nuke do more than a channeled nuke is to increase it's viability. In both cases we still recklessly push back on the notion that they should not be included by putting very good reasons for them in the first place. Honestly perhaps the best option lies somewhere in the middle. 

It was part of neither of our concepts and created in a vacuum, but if we distill the parts I don't personally like from the 1/3 combo, and keep the parts to aim a nuke we could slap most of it on the one ability. Consider this: Create a well of darkness at target location. The well causes damage on impact and radiates damage every second for a duration. Allies that pass near the well gain buffs. Could still be a point for your 4 to draw enemies in, nukes a little more like you want it to, would largely be her 1/3 combined. No more channel lock. Also it would free up another ability slot. 

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on most of your points, I disagree, I personally have always loved frames based around deployment abilities that involve thought for maximum effect. I understand the ire towards abilities like hers since the game revolves around gotta go fast, and think her ult should be a focal turret that once deployed stays in position and fires a beam towards the players reticle and acts as a channel ability, since shes gonna be squishy I don't see the point in giving her an ability that drastically lowers her movement capability. and vaubans main issue is not the fact that his skills are stationary, they are bad because they don't do enough damage or require you to precisely place mines in choke points for absolutely no payoff.

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On 2019-04-16 at 1:16 PM, Lucian_Adrion said:

Is it so bad that a frame does damage? Is it so bad that frame lacks utility? I ask these cause I really need to know why people are so mad over a frame that is not out yet. You know that frames are their own style of gameplay right? Much less of what it used to be in the past, frames today are more freeform in their usage and play style coming with their own mini game of sorts. I feel as though, and I say this with respect, many min maxers, i myself am one to an extent, just do not have fun with th game anymore.

Frames are sought after for two reasons.  Something interesting that varies up gameplay or something that replaces a current frame in value to vary up gameplay.  If a frame does neither that's a bit of a problem.

On 2019-04-16 at 1:16 PM, Lucian_Adrion said:

Why is it only about how good a frame is? Why is that metric we measure on? Prehaps being spoiled by the designs of Nidus and Mesa have ruined the Warframe community to the point where we can not accept even a slight deviation from concepts like such. Take Khora for example. I feel that many still hate her and think she is bad but that is completely unwaranted. She is nigh unkillable in endgame levels. Has utility, cc, and damage that scales. Yet because she didnt have and exalted whip she consider bad only because of her meh release. Min maxers probally wanted to do spin to win on her.

I would say Nidus spoiled us.  Mesa isn't anything special design wise.  She just feels fun because bullet hell.  It just so happens that she also gets 90% DR with an ability that means her fun is also viable.  That being said there isn't anything wrong with expecting close to the quality of frames Like Nidus.  Khora's main hate is more how her pet is basically a glorified heal bot.  Her being the first potential summoner kit and it not turning out that way is the painful part.  The exalted whip being absent was a hot take hate.  Once DE polished her up that disappeared.

On 2019-04-16 at 1:16 PM, Lucian_Adrion said:

Lets look at Gara.  The secomd they nerfed the wall everyon forgot about her. Meanwhile, she still had infinite scaling damage and 90% that give that damage field to everyone with the dr as well. Also he first ability does made damage and is a hard cc. Did you know her fourth makes you do more damage to vitrified enemies and refreshes your 2?. Sure you dont really use her 3 but why was she thrown away?

Gara was never really thrown away.  She's always been considered good and a top pick.

On 2019-04-16 at 1:16 PM, Lucian_Adrion said:

Revenant Revenant Revenant. I am a huge advocate for this frame because of his one shot potential and his insane sustain making him, say with me, nigh unkillable. I feel that his pore is a garbage fire but his kit is sound and rather well designed. It is a closed system resource user and yes it is more efficient to use other frame but that's not the point of picking a frame yes? 

Our operators can heal us.  Survival isn't an issue these days for even squishy frames.  And there are far better synergistic ways that let people live forever.  Mesmer skin is a slow cast 2 handed ground animation that doesn't offer anything gameplay wise to go along with it.  That's real bad.

On 2019-04-16 at 1:16 PM, Lucian_Adrion said:

Garuda. Say it again! Nigh unkillable with massive infinite scaling dps tools in her kit and yet! People hate her and say she is bad. I am confused at this one in particular especially since i have started playing her even more. She is a monster when it comes to sustain and damage with some utility in there as well allowing you to use guns that you couldnt before because she adds slash!

Garuda's problem is she fits absolutely no where.  Her main selling point is forced slash procs.  Please tell me one place where that is a desired thing to have.  I'll wait.

On 2019-04-16 at 1:16 PM, Lucian_Adrion said:

Baruuk. ONE MORE TIME PEOPLE, nigh unkillable. Baruuk is well designed around his concept and evrrything in his kit makes sense. He just not played because people say he does scale but he does. He clears trash mobs well into the triple digits and if he slide attacks, can do the same for heavy units. He aslo offers alot of control with his ultimate.

Again.  Survival isn't and hasn't been an issue for several months now.  The entire point of his kit is abusing it so you unlock use of his 4.  His 4 doesn't feel worth the effort.  If I wanted a mass killing 4 exalted I can go play exalibur.  Only thing Baruuk has on him is tanky.  Which excal doesn't even need.

On 2019-04-16 at 1:16 PM, Lucian_Adrion said:

The whole point im trying to make is that people are missing the essence of what warframe is. The warframes themselves. I played Nezha when he was "bad" and yet I never felt like he was bad at all. Sure i made post on the forum to ket some QoL things done but other than that i loved him deeply and played him because he was fun for me. I feel people have lost that thought. Warframe is not about having fun anymore. It is about how good a frame is and that to me is highly detrimental. But hey thats my two cents take it as you will

When your game is based on grinding as efficiently as possible to have even some of the newer additions to the game "fun" isn't going to cut it.  You can like these frames.  but denying the fact that they could be a lot better only shoots the game in the foot later on.  Because you're accepting mediocrity.  Which means the devs are expected to do less.  So we get less.

5 hours ago, doommoose22 said:

on most of your points, I disagree, I personally have always loved frames based around deployment abilities that involve thought for maximum effect. I understand the ire towards abilities like hers since the game revolves around gotta go fast, and think her ult should be a focal turret that once deployed stays in position and fires a beam towards the players reticle and acts as a channel ability, since shes gonna be squishy I don't see the point in giving her an ability that drastically lowers her movement capability. and vaubans main issue is not the fact that his skills are stationary, they are bad because they don't do enough damage or require you to precisely place mines in choke points for absolutely no payoff.

I wholeheartedly disagree.  My main reason I don't play Vauban is because of his casting.  I hate how it feels on a pad.  It cramps my hands.  And there is literally no way for me to tell if one of my mines went off unless i'm watching it.  I don't care if the effects are not top tier.  I hate having to constantly cycle and recast and babysit my mines.  it's far less stressful to just ignore them entirely and only use bastelle/vortex.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Frames are sought after for two reasons.  Something interesting that varies up gameplay or something that replaces a current frame in value to vary up gameplay.  If a frame does neither that's a bit of a problem.

Revenant changes how you play and is completely different that most frames. Baruuk as well. And Garuda and Hildryn. So your first point is null. They also do provide value if you take the time to play them that is.

I would say Nidus spoiled us.  Mesa isn't anything special design wise.  She just feels fun because bullet hell.  It just so happens that she also gets 90% DR with an ability that means her fun is also viable.  That being said there isn't anything wrong with expecting close to the quality of frames Like Nidus.  Khora's main hate is more how her pet is basically a glorified heal bot.  Her being the first potential summoner kit and it not turning out that way is the painful part.  The exalted whip being absent was a hot take hate.  Once DE polished her up that disappeared.

Alright I can agree Venari is just a heal bot, however, she was never stated as a summoner. Expecting that was ludicrous at best so that reasoning is null as well 

Gara was never really thrown away.  She's always been considered good and a top pick.

No she wasn't. After the efforts of many youtubers and tenno who played her after the nerfs did ahe finaly get recognized  as a good pick.

Our operators can heal us.  Survival isn't an issue these days for even squishy frames.  And there are far better synergistic ways that let people live forever.  Mesmer skin is a slow cast 2 handed ground animation that doesn't offer anything gameplay wise to go along with it.  That's real bad.

Please explain this? You dont have problems with Nova's null star casting(similar cast times nova is slightly faster) and yet her ability is weaker overall. Losing dr as the particles fly away while Revenant can recast, has full invincibility to enemies and self damage, and stujs enemies that shoot at him for a significant peroid of time and he can give it to allies. Also not everyone has operator arcanes so that reasoning gets thrown out as well. Is he perfect? No he is not. However, you give credit where credit is due.

Garuda's problem is she fits absolutely no where.  Her main selling point is forced slash procs.  Please tell me one place where that is a desired thing to have.  I'll wait.

Wow. And here i thought we could have a civil discussion. Guess not. You are telling me and im sorry but i have to ask because you reasoning baffles me. You are saying that additional slash procs have no place in the game? The same proc that deal true damage that by passes sheilds and armor? The same proc that give additional damage for free? The same proc that increases dps? The same proc that garuda and make proc 100% the time off weapon shot even with weapons that dont have innate slash? See how ridiculous you sound?.

Again.  Survival isn't and hasn't been an issue for several months now.  The entire point of his kit is abusing it so you unlock use of his 4.  His 4 doesn't feel worth the effort.  If I wanted a mass killing 4 exalted I can go play exalibur.  Only thing Baruuk has on him is tanky.  Which excal doesn't even need.

Like i said, his own mini game. Also, you can play exc you are free to. But ill play Baruuk any other day of the week. Why? Cause his kit flows and makes sense. Excals kit? Hurr durr i press four and do some slide attacks for short range cc. Or i spam one only or spam 3 oh wait that got nerfed.  And then there is the 2 spamers with coved lethality. How is that good? That is bland and on sided. There is no flow or consequence just one mimded boring stale gameplay. Baruuk offers more that Excal but takes a hit in the damage department because of his tanking capabilities. Filled with fallacy arent you?

When your game is based on grinding as efficiently as possible to have even some of the newer additions to the game "fun" isn't going to cut it.  You can like these frames.  but denying the fact that they could be a lot better only shoots the game in the foot later on.  Because you're accepting mediocrity.  Which means the devs are expected to do less.  So we get less.

What you think mediocrity is creativity. But i get it. You want everything to be op op op. A ome track ticket to victory. I hope you some how remember that you are playing a game for fun. The devs are trying to get us to slow down and bit and play differently hut i guess if we are going to have people like you telling them that any idea they try is complete garbage because it cant clear lvl 200 heavy gunner is in one shot then im sorry but you are hopeless

 

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2 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Revenant changes how you play and is completely different that most frames. Baruuk as well. And Garuda and Hildryn. So your first point is null. They also do provide value if you take the time to play them that is.

This is a re-occuring thing in your reply so i'll just state it here.  Saying my points are null with following a flimsey statement does not make it so.  If you can't properly counter a point i've listed in detail then don't bother responding to said point and move to one that you can do.

2 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Alright I can agree Venari is just a heal bot, however, she was never stated as a summoner. Expecting that was ludicrous at best so that reasoning is null as well 

She might not have.  But you're splitting hairs.  The point is that her pet was meant to be a big part of her kit.  That was one of the many things advertized about her in her development cycle.  It ended up not being that way.  Which is my personal major let down for her.  But I still love her regardless.

2 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

No she wasn't. After the efforts of many youtubers and tenno who played her after the nerfs did ahe finaly get recognized  as a good pick.

I recall a backlash of her walls not being invulnerable anymore.  Saying that they'd just take Frost.  But iirc they didn't change much with her kit beyond that.  So it's not like she flew under the radar.  It was a heat of the moment anger episode.  I don't ever recall her being called bad all around.  Certainly not to the levels of Titania or Revenant.

2 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Please explain this? You dont have problems with Nova's null star casting(similar cast times nova is slightly faster) and yet her ability is weaker overall. Losing dr as the particles fly away while Revenant can recast, has full invincibility to enemies and self damage, and stujs enemies that shoot at him for a significant peroid of time and he can give it to allies. Also not everyone has operator arcanes so that reasoning gets thrown out as well. Is he perfect? No he is not. However, you give credit where credit is due.

Nullstar iirc can be casted in the air and is a one handed animation.  Means more smooth transition in and out of the ability.  Better is debatable.  she has an augment that lets her gain stars back without having to recast.  Which can be seen as an up over Revenant's mesmer skin.  My complaint about the ability on him is it's terrible feeling via slow and stuck to the ground.  And that it clashes with his kit.  Making his passive impossible to proc and the main point of Reave (health/shield regen) pointless.

2 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Wow. And here i thought we could have a civil discussion. Guess not. You are telling me and im sorry but i have to ask because you reasoning baffles me. You are saying that additional slash procs have no place in the game? The same proc that deal true damage that by passes sheilds and armor? The same proc that give additional damage for free? The same proc that increases dps? The same proc that garuda and make proc 100% the time off weapon shot even with weapons that dont have innate slash? See how ridiculous you sound?.

Dunno why you're being so aggressive.  Any of the top tier dps frames can kill enemies just fine without her slash procs.  We can make our own melee weapons and secondaries which vastly out perform normal weapons and can kill level 200 enemies without the aid of Garuda.  And all the top tier primaries can melt those same leveled enemies in nearly the same time as our custom made weapons without help.  It seems you've misunderstood my point.  I'm not saying her capability of forcing slash procs is a bad thing to have.  I'm saying that I don't ever see Garuda being asked for.  I am saying that our weapons alone can kill 200+ level heavy armored enemies without it easily.  I am saying she doesn't really help any of the top pick dps frames because their lethality is already insane without her.  Garuda isn't bad.  She just isn't a meta pick.

3 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Like i said, his own mini game. Also, you can play exc you are free to. But ill play Baruuk any other day of the week. Why? Cause his kit flows and makes sense. Excals kit? Hurr durr i press four and do some slide attacks for short range cc. Or i spam one only or spam 3 oh wait that got nerfed.  And then there is the 2 spamers with coved lethality. How is that good? That is bland and on sided. There is no flow or consequence just one mimded boring stale gameplay. Baruuk offers more that Excal but takes a hit in the damage department because of his tanking capabilities. Filled with fallacy arent you?

Baruuk's kit stumbles over itself.  Lull's sleep effect is negated by his desolate hands when they hit them.  His desolate hands doesn't give him consistent DR because they always fly at enemies unless you nuke your range.  Which ruins lull.  Not to mention elude doubles the range in which those daggers seek enemies.  And giving them to allies doesn't give them DR.  The best way to play baruuk is to nuke your duration and have high range so you can spam out your abilities to burn your erosion meter away.  I wouldn't mind his abilities effects being secondary to their primary goal of burning meter if his 4 actually felt good to use at high level.  But it doesn't against heavy armored enemies.  His combos are cool.  It sets his exalted aside as being a unique one and not just a damage ability.  Unfortunately the cc is the worst kind being ragdoll which hurts both your teams and your own DPS.  You really didn't need to bash on Excal.  Not very mature of you.  You didn't really counter my point about him.  Just called him boring and insulted him.

3 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

What you think mediocrity is creativity. But i get it. You want everything to be op op op. A ome track ticket to victory. I hope you some how remember that you are playing a game for fun. The devs are trying to get us to slow down and bit and play differently hut i guess if we are going to have people like you telling them that any idea they try is complete garbage because it cant clear lvl 200 heavy gunner is in one shot then im sorry but you are hopeless

I particularly like this statement the most.  Because it really just sums up how you've approached this entire response.  You've basically taken offense to someone disagreeing with you and then went out to personally attack the person when you could.  You didn't really counter any point that was made.  You attempted it once with the talk Of revenant's mesmer skin.  The rest was just dismissive trash talking.  I explained the negatives/perceived downsides to the frames you listed and attempted to explain why people have been increasingly critical about Warframes as of late.  You can disagree if you want, i'm not here to try to convince you.  Just to inform you since it genuinely seemed like you wanted to know the other half of this discussion.

I'm not a min maxer.  I don't play the most optimally.  I was merely informing you of that side of the game.  In their eyes if the gameplay isn't interesting enough to warrent playing or doesn't out right replace something currently being used then it's a failure to them.  There is nothing wrong with that statement.  It's just a different style of play.  In my eyes i've always liked Khora, Gara, and Garuda.  I initially liked Baruuk until I spend some good time with him.  He's still alright.  But overall he needs a lot of polish if I want to play him a lot more.  The only two frames you've mentioned that I out right dislike Is revenant and Hyldrin.  And i'll avoid going into why to not make this reply any longer than it already is.

For the record those are the only 2 frames DE has ever released that i've genuinely disliked.  With what I know of whisp I mostly like her current kit.  My main issue being her 1.  And that her 4 seems to be just a damage ability that leaves her rather vulnerable.  I don't mind pure damage abilities if they're designed well.  But it's getting a little tiring that DE (aside from Hyldrin) has been on a binge of having a damage ultimate lately.  When those are almost always nerfed because they end up being too good.  And then they end up not being worth the cost.  But preference wise I always prefer synergy and utility above everything.  So if her current 4 had some direct synergy with the rest of her kit it would be more palletable for me.

I urge you to think a little more before you respond to me again.  I really would dislike having to write you off and ignore further replies.  But if you can't avoid making assumptions about myself and can't avoid trying to attack or dismiss me then you're a waste of time and energy.  I rarely come on here anyway because I quit playing months ago.  I don't need nor want to come back to poor responses such as yours.

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9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

This is a re-occuring thing in your reply so i'll just state it here.  Saying my points are null with following a flimsey statement does not make it so.  If you can't properly counter a point i've listed in detail then don't bother responding to said point and move to one that you can do.

She might not have.  But you're splitting hairs.  The point is that her pet was meant to be a big part of her kit.  That was one of the many things advertized about her in her development cycle.  It ended up not being that way.  Which is my personal major let down for her.  But I still love her regardless.

I recall a backlash of her walls not being invulnerable anymore.  Saying that they'd just take Frost.  But iirc they didn't change much with her kit beyond that.  So it's not like she flew under the radar.  It was a heat of the moment anger episode.  I don't ever recall her being called bad all around.  Certainly not to the levels of Titania or Revenant.

Nullstar iirc can be casted in the air and is a one handed animation.  Means more smooth transition in and out of the ability.  Better is debatable.  she has an augment that lets her gain stars back without having to recast.  Which can be seen as an up over Revenant's mesmer skin.  My complaint about the ability on him is it's terrible feeling via slow and stuck to the ground.  And that it clashes with his kit.  Making his passive impossible to proc and the main point of Reave (health/shield regen) pointless.

Dunno why you're being so aggressive.  Any of the top tier dps frames can kill enemies just fine without her slash procs.  We can make our own melee weapons and secondaries which vastly out perform normal weapons and can kill level 200 enemies without the aid of Garuda.  And all the top tier primaries can melt those same leveled enemies in nearly the same time as our custom made weapons without help.  It seems you've misunderstood my point.  I'm not saying her capability of forcing slash procs is a bad thing to have.  I'm saying that I don't ever see Garuda being asked for.  I am saying that our weapons alone can kill 200+ level heavy armored enemies without it easily.  I am saying she doesn't really help any of the top pick dps frames because their lethality is already insane without her.  Garuda isn't bad.  She just isn't a meta pick.

Baruuk's kit stumbles over itself.  Lull's sleep effect is negated by his desolate hands when they hit them.  His desolate hands doesn't give him consistent DR because they always fly at enemies unless you nuke your range.  Which ruins lull.  Not to mention elude doubles the range in which those daggers seek enemies.  And giving them to allies doesn't give them DR.  The best way to play baruuk is to nuke your duration and have high range so you can spam out your abilities to burn your erosion meter away.  I wouldn't mind his abilities effects being secondary to their primary goal of burning meter if his 4 actually felt good to use at high level.  But it doesn't against heavy armored enemies.  His combos are cool.  It sets his exalted aside as being a unique one and not just a damage ability.  Unfortunately the cc is the worst kind being ragdoll which hurts both your teams and your own DPS.  You really didn't need to bash on Excal.  Not very mature of you.  You didn't really counter my point about him.  Just called him boring and insulted him.

I particularly like this statement the most.  Because it really just sums up how you've approached this entire response.  You've basically taken offense to someone disagreeing with you and then went out to personally attack the person when you could.  You didn't really counter any point that was made.  You attempted it once with the talk Of revenant's mesmer skin.  The rest was just dismissive trash talking.  I explained the negatives/perceived downsides to the frames you listed and attempted to explain why people have been increasingly critical about Warframes as of late.  You can disagree if you want, i'm not here to try to convince you.  Just to inform you since it genuinely seemed like you wanted to know the other half of this discussion.

I'm not a min maxer.  I don't play the most optimally.  I was merely informing you of that side of the game.  In their eyes if the gameplay isn't interesting enough to warrent playing or doesn't out right replace something currently being used then it's a failure to them.  There is nothing wrong with that statement.  It's just a different style of play.  In my eyes i've always liked Khora, Gara, and Garuda.  I initially liked Baruuk until I spend some good time with him.  He's still alright.  But overall he needs a lot of polish if I want to play him a lot more.  The only two frames you've mentioned that I out right dislike Is revenant and Hyldrin.  And i'll avoid going into why to not make this reply any longer than it already is.

For the record those are the only 2 frames DE has ever released that i've genuinely disliked.  With what I know of whisp I mostly like her current kit.  My main issue being her 1.  And that her 4 seems to be just a damage ability that leaves her rather vulnerable.  I don't mind pure damage abilities if they're designed well.  But it's getting a little tiring that DE (aside from Hyldrin) has been on a binge of having a damage ultimate lately.  When those are almost always nerfed because they end up being too good.  And then they end up not being worth the cost.  But preference wise I always prefer synergy and utility above everything.  So if her current 4 had some direct synergy with the rest of her kit it would be more palletable for me.

I urge you to think a little more before you respond to me again.  I really would dislike having to write you off and ignore further replies.  But if you can't avoid making assumptions about myself and can't avoid trying to attack or dismiss me then you're a waste of time and energy.  I rarely come on here anyway because I quit playing months ago.  I don't need nor want to come back to poor responses such as yours.

Fair enough. My apologizes for being rude. I understand why people think they are bad but i am a fierce defender of the frames. I could care less about DE but the frames speak for themselves. I am surrounded by meta hounds because I like to min max at it gets all too overwhelming at times. Let me be more specific.

The reasoning I have with meser skin also comes from the fact that you can make more charges for youself by killing enemies with reave. Additionally, the pillars left behind by dead thralls well automatically enthrall enemies for you. It is a closed system like i said. I have had no problems using Revenant like that even in pubs but i disagree it is harder in pubs.

Revenant's issue and I guess Garuda's by extension as well is that they are built around fighting alone and they don't really apply in teamplay at all.

Baruuk is in the same fold as well. I was not aware that the dahhers do not give dr to allies i figured that is what would happen if they do so that needs to change. As for them flying away that is why he had damage reduction in the passive and the ult as well. Most of the time, enemies are not even shooting at me because i spam the sleep so much. As for what I said about excalibur, I will not recant. He is very basic in comparison to other frames and I get some people might like that but it is not my drift at all. Sure he has high dps but like you said that ain't alll that special. Partly the reason why i dont use Revenant's 4th ability at all.

Also i would like to know. Why do you think Titania and Hildryn are subpar? I want to know.

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2 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Fair enough. My apologizes for being rude. I understand why people think they are bad but i am a fierce defender of the frames. I could care less about DE but the frames speak for themselves. I am surrounded by meta hounds because I like to min max at it gets all too overwhelming at times. Let me be more specific.

It's not like I think say baruuk is bad design.  Heck I even wrote up in Revenant's megathread a way to make his current design work without massively retooling his kit.  I just think the frames can be a lot better than what DE sticks us with, and it's frustrating when it seems like they ignore feedback even when they ask for it.  At least as of late.

2 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

The reasoning I have with meser skin also comes from the fact that you can make more charges for youself by killing enemies with reave. Additionally, the pillars left behind by dead thralls well automatically enthrall enemies for you. It is a closed system like i said. I have had no problems using Revenant like that even in pubs but i disagree it is harder in pubs.

As I mentioned before the thralls created by the pillars do not turn into pillars themselves upon death.  This personally has killed Revenant for me.  As I enjoyed using him to create a choke point full of pillars and guiding enemies into them.  It's much harder to do that when you don't have control over your own thrall count.

2 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Revenant's issue and I guess Garuda's by extension as well is that they are built around fighting alone and they don't really apply in teamplay at all.

That's more about how they ended up.  Not that they're designed for solo.  Garuda certainly isn't.  She just happened to be dropped into a sandbox where self sustain is too prevelant in a coop game.

2 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Baruuk is in the same fold as well. I was not aware that the dahhers do not give dr to allies i figured that is what would happen if they do so that needs to change. As for them flying away that is why he had damage reduction in the passive and the ult as well. Most of the time, enemies are not even shooting at me because i spam the sleep so much. As for what I said about excalibur, I will not recant. He is very basic in comparison to other frames and I get some people might like that but it is not my drift at all. Sure he has high dps but like you said that ain't alll that special. Partly the reason why i dont use Revenant's 4th ability at all.

I know that it's one of the reasons why he's given multiple sources of DR.  I'm just not a fan of using an ability that I basically have no control over.  If you'd like I can attempt to find my thread about suggestions specifically for Baruuk.  Again doesn't really retool his kit.  Makes what he has work.  My point is that in my eyes I use Baruuk for his 4.  If I wanted a CC tank which is what the rest of his kit is there are better imo choices for that.  His 4 HAS the potential to make me want it over all other exalted weapons.  It just doesn't feel that way currently.  Where as excal's to me feels fine.  and I don't need to build up to use it.  I can just use it in conjunction with the rest of his kit.  (only issue with excal for me atm is forced executions when enemies are blinded.)

2 hours ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Also i would like to know. Why do you think Titania and Hildryn are subpar? I want to know.

Titania has a few issues.  Her tribute buff is still very enemy dependent.  The buffs themselves are not strong even post buff.  One of the buffs (and effects of her 4) makes her harder to hit via an accuracy debuff.  However some enemies don't care about that stat at all and will always hit.  Her lantern still floats away too much despite their attempts to anchor it down.  Her 4 doesn't get any pet benefits.  The butterflies she creates has little interactions with her kit.  And she has to constantly enter and exit her 4 to interact with the environment.  I'm not a Titania main so I'm probably missing some buggy interactions with her.

Hyldrin is just missing a bunch of qol.  Her balefire seems pointless as an ability.  It doesn't really do anything special which most exalteds do something different to warrent the extra cost for formaing them.  My current guns hit harder than it does.  So I see no point in using it.  Shield pillage is inconsistently effective.  Because it gives you shields on a 1:1 scale and is effected on your power strength and the amount of armor/shields the effected enemy currently has.  This means at low levels, infested at all, and armor outside of end game will give you very little shielding.  Which kinda sucks for a frame who's abilities require shields to use.  Her 3 doesn't benefit her in anyway.  Her 4 is a bit clunky movement wise.  You equip two balefires but the second one is purely cosmetic.  If we're forced to only use her balefire in her 4 that's un acceptable.  Let her be able to rapid fire her shots with a RoF increase and charge up both when we're charging.

At least with Hyldrin she's got a niche in that she ignores leeches which that alone is reason to play her sometimes.

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ahhhhh when is she going to be released?! im tired of waiting ;A;

giphy.gif

 

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While the discussion seems to have died down, I do want to reiterate. Wisp in her current form is not a warframe the community at large is excited about, her frames appearance does not match her theme nor abilities, and they do not match eachother. 

People seems vastly disappointed that they are "not" getting a ghost themed warframe as her appearance would suggest, but are instead getting flowers and sun beams. We do like the ability set that's being shown, but it does NOT match Wisp. 

Her 4th ability being a big fire beam (sun beam I know...) seems to raise concerns similar to the concerns regarding Revenants 4, and Garudas original 4. And on top of that it would fit someone like Ember a lot more, seeing as she is based on fire, and a huge heckin fire beam seems... well... on theme.

It also strikes a lot of us as odd that Vauban is getting a rework for being too stational (which we're not against, train face needs a rework), and Wisp will have 50% of her kit be, or be relying on, stationaries. Further more as was the case with Titania, buffs we have to pick up manually are likely going to be a miss.

A lot of us has thrown ideas out for alternative abilities for Wisp (Myself included) and I think none of us would mind terribly if DE let themselves be inspired by the community.

 

I am making this post so this discussion does not die out fully. This needs to be heard/seen before Wisp is fully released and any form of full kit rework becomes impossible.

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15 minutes ago, Sekan said:

~snip~

i dont care about theme. what i care about is not having stationary skills with an ability wheel. skill set needs to match the pace of the game.

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1 hour ago, Sekan said:

While the discussion seems to have died down, I do want to reiterate. Wisp in her current form is not a warframe the community at large is excited about, her frames appearance does not match her theme nor abilities, and they do not match eachother. 

People seems vastly disappointed that they are "not" getting a ghost themed warframe as her appearance would suggest, but are instead getting flowers and sun beams. We do like the ability set that's being shown, but it does NOT match Wisp. 

Her 4th ability being a big fire beam (sun beam I know...) seems to raise concerns similar to the concerns regarding Revenants 4, and Garudas original 4. And on top of that it would fit someone like Ember a lot more, seeing as she is based on fire, and a huge heckin fire beam seems... well... on theme.

It also strikes a lot of us as odd that Vauban is getting a rework for being too stational (which we're not against, train face needs a rework), and Wisp will have 50% of her kit be, or be relying on, stationaries. Further more as was the case with Titania, buffs we have to pick up manually are likely going to be a miss.

A lot of us has thrown ideas out for alternative abilities for Wisp (Myself included) and I think none of us would mind terribly if DE let themselves be inspired by the community.

 

I am making this post so this discussion does not die out fully. This needs to be heard/seen before Wisp is fully released and any form of full kit rework becomes impossible.

I'm sure DE has seen plenty of feedback by now.  Just like they always do.  It just depends if they actually plan on doing anything with it or not.

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6 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm sure DE has seen plenty of feedback by now.  Just like they always do.  It just depends if they actually plan on doing anything with it or not.

Let's all hope that this extended time between DevStreams has given them time to actually read and digest even some of it.

The knee-jerk reactions are plentiful, and I think the gist of what most of us want are in there. But having this thread prominent on the Forums for another week or so between now and the next Stream may actually work out better. If they're coming looking for it, this Megathread has most of the thought-out and well-argued stuff. Even if they have to sift through a few bad ones to get there.

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Everyone said it, the ability design seems lazy and boring, she will be another MR fodder frame no one uses.

She is "playable" in a vacuum, but we have 40 other frames to pick from, in what mission type should I pick Wisp? why? because she's fun? she doesn't seem to be.


 

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