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ShikiRen

Wisp Review/Early feedback

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2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Especially the concept that Garuda can't die at Sortie... I mean, yes, she has 300 armour and you're modding her for health and armour, but if you aren't moving, if you aren't using Dread Mirror, if you aren't mitigating damage using the functions that Garuda has like her health regen, she dies. 

Huh... ?

Modding Garuda for health... no, no one with a moderate amount of knowledge about the frame would mod her that way for normal gameplay. Armour and QT yes. Also, no. if you are not moving you die but that's the kind of not moving that doesn't apply to wisp. So technically, no, you don't die with garuda even without using the mirror, played her enough to know that.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But here's a fun point; since Garuda has Dread Mirror and Blood Altar (damage mitigation and health regen) on top of her high base stats, even if she had an animation based 4, that would be enough to support it. 

She has something kinda worse than that and I agree with the shield but honestly her altar is useless and that's part of what I'd like to avoid with wisp. An unnecessary amount of defensive abilities traded off for less damage. Also her 4th ability is a lot worse than the speed at which wisp was moving on the stream. They don't seem to have similar use.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Wisp's CC is okay, as I said, but if she's floating around in a fixed animation, how does she effectively use it? 

Arent they leave in CCs ? Not entirely sure about the mechanic but it seems like you can pick them up ? Again, "To my knowledge" maybe the tweet has Infos that I don't have.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Saying 'knowing when to use the ability' does not make the ability good.

It's meant to give it a purpose and a context. You are not supposed to press 4 at any moment. It simply means that it's not just about theoretically standing still in a mission, it's about using it in context that make sense of the ability. Taking Garuda as example I  am not going to use her ball if I don't have something else to jump on the next second. Or I wont throw it too far if I am surrounded because the delay would kill me. I don't want to make too many theory crafting but I assume that you'd want to use that ability from a certain distance in corridors which would then seem safe to me depending on how her pick ups work.

 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

When a frame is in development, and has been previewed to us the way Wisp has, this is the perfect time to take the abilities we can see as bad ideas and suggest good ones, better ones at least.

I am pretty sure I did support that. What I do "disagree" with is that her 4th ability might be supported since we don't know much about her CCs. 

 

 

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All fair points, although I don't agree with them.

6 hours ago, Shelusine said:

Also, no. if you are not moving you die but that's the kind of not moving that doesn't apply to wisp.

It does, because there are literally no movement options that don't have her gliding around at a jogging pace, something that will get any frame killed without some form of damage mitigation.

6 hours ago, Shelusine said:

An unnecessary amount of defensive abilities traded off for less damage.

You see, though, damage on its own just doesn't do much. Some of the best abilities for damage in the game don't work on anything like the system Wisp is being previewed with. 

Look at the frames that do deal the most damage, they have radial functions, not aimed, they have high sustained damage over time based on hitting multiple enemies or just over time, not scaling per enemy as they've stated this one does, and they all exploit mechanical functions such as enemies contributing to a multiplied damage return or external secondary effects building their result.

Octavia's Mallet, Saryn's Spores, Mesa's Peacemaker, Mag's Magnetise, they're all dealing top damage based on a mechanical function that, without input, would not do very much at all or fizzle out. The input from enemies, or from further ability use, scales that damage higher and higher, until people complain about them being too powerful on the Forums (weird people...)

And every single one of those allows for the players to either have a long-running buff or an effect they can activate externally that is capable of keeping them alive for the duration.

Again, we've only seen one ability in her kit that's even slightly capable of doing that while her 4 is active:

7 hours ago, Shelusine said:

Arent they leave in CCs ? Not entirely sure about the mechanic but it seems like you can pick them up ? Again, "To my knowledge" maybe the tweet has Infos that I don't have.

And that's kind of the point. With her 2 disabled while she's using her 4, all she has is that CC aura, which is (as previewed) only a short range stun CC. She can go pick it up again, but at what point is it going to be longer range than the death laser, or effective at keeping her alive while she uses the laser? It's why I brought up Banshee. If you set her CC too high it doesn't work, or too low either, because you're not stunning enemies at the point where you can effectively deal damage to them. The same problem will exist for Wisp, because we saw how it currently works, and without Warframe movement, sprinting, dodging, bullet jumping, that kind of stun isn't at all easy to apply.

That's what I meant by 'how can you use it effectively', you need to actually be able to run in and out, close distances and so on to be able to use that stun CC.

So it pretty much doesn't matter that you can leave them running and pick them up again, the CC is just not effective in the form we've seen it specifically when she's in that animation mode. That's where I'm heading here.

And speaking of heading:

7 hours ago, Shelusine said:

It's meant to give it a purpose and a context. You are not supposed to press 4 at any moment.

No, but again, the key is that pressing 4 should not remove options unless the compensation for that is high enough, and those options it removes definitely shouldn't be the things that allow you to survive a risk/reward encounter.

Getting high damage for a risk is exactly the kind of thing that Mesa runs on, except that she has the option to mitigate that risk. As do the other frames with fixed animations like this. 

My whole point is that from what we've seen... what's there isn't enough even with theory crafting to suggest great options for them. We've seen these same mechanics before in different forms, we aren't working in a vacuum.

6 hours ago, Shelusine said:

What I do "disagree" with is that her 4th ability might be supported since we don't know much about her CCs

And see, this is pretty much exactly it, we don't know anything more about her abilities. Only what we've seen.

So, based on the fact that we haven't seen any more of them, what we've got... just isn't enough.

And on that, I think I'll stop the ranting for a bit ^^

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2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It does, because there are literally no movement options that don't have her gliding around at a jogging pace, something that will get any frame killed without some form of damage mitigation.

I don't see it as jogging pace, she's clearly much faster than that to me. In fact she was equally as fast as her running speed in some phases which would indeed be enough to moderately dodge. It's absolutely not a standing still animation and I am pretty sure it is affected by sprinting speed. (Not that I'd mod for it)

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

the best abilities for damage in the game don't work on anything like the system Wisp is being previewed with

You are correct but no other frame is so that's a bit hard to judge. Taking Khora as an example she can just rush through sorties and be top damage by just pressing 1 which while it has an impact AoE mechanic, is not a radial ability and doesn't need any support to do what it does.

 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

She can go pick it up again, but at what point is it going to be longer range than the death laser, or effective at keeping her alive while she uses the laser?

We don't know ? 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, but again, the key is that pressing 4 should not remove options unless the compensation for that is high enough, and those options it removes definitely shouldn't be the things that allow you to survive a risk/reward encounter.

I am not entirely sure about that, the more we discuss the more the pick up aspect seems to correlate with the ability. Somehow it seems like the trade might be fair, it really depends on its value. 

But I mean yes. If it's not high enough you are correct but we just don't know so it's not like there's a point to argue about that between us.

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And on that, I think I'll stop the ranting for a bit ^^

We agree.

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At the moment I'm quite duoubtfull that wisp won't be another wreck of a frame honetly.

I like her design but all her powers make 0 sense on her and feel it's an error basing her on stationary pickups or making her powers dependant on long setups, when a Mesa or worse a Saryn just waltz trough the map obliterating everything.

Lastly her ultimate is something that nearly caused me rabies: Ember has been brutalized multiple times and still lacks survivability and decent powers and they go giving a freaking solar flare to a ghost temed frame?! WTFF?!

So far her kit seems a mess and completely unrelated to her apparent theme, I'd like to avoid another Khora or Revenant crapshow - botrh frames massively suffer from hapazard kit choices that are completely thematically unrelated to what was previewed - for the worse

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Posted (edited)

khora was a mess design but ended really good with her augment idk who's behind her augment but wp she is "GOOD" in All content, even without Ability Strengh, 

 

Il y a 21 heures, Ikusias a dit :

At the moment I'm quite duoubtfull that wisp won't be another wreck of a frame honetly.

I like her design but all her powers make 0 sense on her and feel it's an error basing her on stationary pickups or making her powers dependant on long setups, when a Mesa or worse a Saryn just waltz trough the map obliterating everything.

Lastly her ultimate is something that nearly caused me rabies: Ember has been brutalized multiple times and still lacks survivability and decent powers and they go giving a freaking solar flare to a ghost temed frame?! WTFF?!

So far her kit seems a mess and completely unrelated to her apparent theme, I'd like to avoid another Khora or Revenant crapshow - botrh frames massively suffer from hapazard kit choices that are completely thematically unrelated to what was previewed - for the worse

 

Edited by Hex-Maniac

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If Sol is to be kept as a aimed beam of growing damage, then it should not limit Wisp to the ground and hinder her mobility/passive that she relies on for surviving.

  • Allow her to use her full mobility including parkour, but doing those maneuvers (except rolling since they might add a custom dash like Hildryn's) would temporarily close the portal to the sun and reopen it once she finishes. Can jump to use her passive invisibility.
  • Allow her to use 2 and 3 while channeling Sol. If using 2, her doppelganger holds open the sun portal and the beam goes where you aim. If using 3, enemies hit by those reservoir explosions add damage to her 4's beam.

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Posted (edited)

I was hyped for Wisp and going meh for Hildryn when they first revealed both of them but turns out my hype for Hildryn (and how much I use her) has been a lot more than what I feel for Wisp at the moment. I don't fully dislike Wisp's kit but I do agree it falls short... way too short of what I was expecting.

Consider this my own opinion btw:

First skill she just calls small wisps from her "wisp dimension"?... One is health, another is CC and the last one is plain buff (taken out of devstream 126). To be honest her HP buff is useless for the most part, people generally don't care for HP that much, and if they do they mod for it, they don't need extra HP from a buff. Her CC buff MIGHT have some use but again this is kicking the same dead horse again and again - the best CCed enemy is a dead one so this'll probably be useless too unless you're soloing high level runs, and even so I'm not seeing much use there or in a squad. Her flat buff remains to be determined if it's a damage buff, defense buff or both so no comment there.

Her second skill creates a ghost of her that allows ya to switch places and radial blind teleport at the location your ghost arrived which doesn't sound too bad on paper.

Her third skill can be either awesome or another fail since you need to use her first in order to use it.

And lastly her fourth skill is a joke. Any and all Ember players cry in a corner over having 1 new warframe grabbing a friggin' sun to kill enemies while you're there just increasing room temperature. This skill is literally making fun of Ember in itself.

Her passive is amazing. Being invisible while airborne can and will help a ton considering most of us already bullet jump a whole tileset.

Overrall though... I'm left confused over her whole kit. There's supposed to be a wisp dimension and she takes stuff from it - that's to be her whole concept but we're left with ... useless buffs in general, a radial blind with a dash incorporated and summoning a sun?... She feels underwhelming with almost no synergy on her skills aside from you being able to blow up your 1 using 3 - actually I take that back, this is not synergy, it's mandatory considering you can't use your 3 without using your 1. So without your 1 out, your 3 doesn't work? 

Yea ... I prefer Hildryn, she's tanky and useful as heck. Wisp so far is just a big disappointment and this coming from someone who was actually hyped over her.

Edited by _Kiro
mistakes
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On 2019-04-29 at 10:24 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ooh, that was mean... can I get your number? ^^

Sorry honey, I am meaner on the phone.

Joke aside I think I quoted the wrong sentence. My b

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im surprised no one is making a case for chroma getting her 4. spectral scream is absolute garbage compared to WoF (which i think works just fine)

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3 hours ago, Shelusine said:

Sorry honey, I am meaner on the phone.

Heh, can't blame me for trying, though, somebody you can enjoy arguing with is rare and to be respected.

Then again... you aren't that mean. A mean person would have sent me a number, allowed me the chance to call, and then absolutely destroyed me verbally, blocked me, and left me regretting my words and decisions. These are the signs of either a base tease, or spoken for (and I sadly predict the latter).

That... or the other side of things could be the more... psychological insecurity of the whole encounter. Because while the sensible reason you will use should be 'come on, who just gives out their number to a random stranger on a Forum?' your actual reason is that you're genuinely worried that if you did, you'd pick up the phone and find yourself falling for the smooth British accent and the instant connection you felt to someone you'd never met, because we all know you're nothing but a hopeless romantic that...

Sorry, I tried, but I can't keep a straight face... XD

Moving on.

2 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

im surprised no one is making a case for chroma getting her 4. spectral scream is absolute garbage compared to WoF (which i think works just fine)

And Spectral Scream is another animation locked ability with energy drain. Those kinds of abilities are just terrible, and we don't actually like them.

I wouldn't give it to Chroma, but that's because many of the dedicated threads for him have come up with a dozen better ideas that fit him.

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On 2019-04-05 at 11:48 AM, ShikiRen said:

Her 4 did definitly not blow everyone away. None out of my circle of friends likes it because it is a Revenant ult. Again. Almost for the third time in 4 frames (they had Garuda's ult the same way until people did not like it). It looks amazing, yes. It would be way better as a third single shot ability though instead of yet another "I can not do anything else, slowly float around and deal meh damage for stupidly high energy costs" ability.

Agreeing on the 1 and 3.

As for the 2, distraction abilities are notorious for being the worst CC in the game, it is very short duration, and teleports do not help.

I might just be bias and like revenant, but what's so bad about his 4? I've never had any issues with it, it's a adaptive damage dealer. Sure you can't afk in it, but it's a useful quick room clearer. 

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31 minutes ago, Cephalon_Pestilence said:

I might just be bias and like revenant, but what's so bad about his 4? I've never had any issues with it, it's a adaptive damage dealer. Sure you can't afk in it, but it's a useful quick room clearer. 

Mostly the cost of it after his nerf, and that his mesmer skin is not enough to keep him alive at higher levels during it (but then again Mesmer skin is a bit undertuned in my opinion). Well and that you are stuck inside the ult, not being able to do anything except use his dash ability; with Mesa's Peacekeeper you at least have to aim (now), and her shattershield leaves her way less vulnerable during it.

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On ‎2019‎-‎04‎-‎05 at 1:51 PM, HC217 said:

her kit seems conflicted. 1 and 3 are cool, new abilities, rather see them than another generic amalgamation of old frame powers like how her 2 is loki's 1 and 3 combined (scott even joked about it on stream) also, i can tell you why her 4 will be bad: HEAT damage type.

I think I know you.

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)Kuljack said:

I think I know you.

that's pretty random. sure you aren't confusing me with an Xbox player?

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Well, guys and girls, here it is. Another DevStream is about to preview her on Friday. They are literally at the last point where they could code in any kind of changes for us to see.

What's everyone hoping for in terms of changes?

For me:

Streamline her 1 (I'm also hoping that the buffs get switched up so that you get a damage reduction instead of a health boost), make her 3 function even if her 1 isn't in play, and replacing that 4 with something that benefits everyone on the team (much like my previous comments, of course).

Hit us with the hopes and dreams people, because DE is past the point of seriously changing her up again before the preview, and after that they're going to be pushing for her actual release.

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Why are the expectations with each new warframe set so high?

In a game with varying degrees of difficulty, creative license, function and fluidity it makes a lot of sense to introduce .variety.

 

People on this thread have noted that they don't like every frame. Good, that's sort of the point. Not every player will resonate with every frame. Not every frame needs to be able to solo end game, and not every frame needs to be functionally equal or superior to the last frame released. 

 

Wisp doesnt need to be a great frame, or even a good frame. It just needs to be different and fun to play. Just remember that one person's fun isn't another person's fun. The developers are trying to broaden the options for their player base so more and more people will find something to like about the game.

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Wisp's design and abilities are pretty nicely put together. But why does all her abilities fit her frame EXCEPT her 4? Like all of a sudden "wisp" shoots a big fireball, why not like shadows?... shadows that come out of her and hunts down enemies or something. Something that fits her more of a ghost/wisp/shadow frame than just a press 4 sun like revenent . I don't know I'm really excited for wisp but her 4 really doesn't fit her and is somewhat underwhelming. Just some thoughts 

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The devstream just finished... Wisp still looks like a massive dissatpointment. She's STILL overly reliant on her stationary buff alters, stationary being the very thing they're reworking Vauban away from... Also the buffs are still underwhelming, and they're still looking to just be Titanias buffs all over again. We hardly saw any of her 3, but i assume its still tied to her stationaries. Her 2 still looks great. Her 4... WHY are you giving her a big fire beam while completely gimping ember? her 4 and 1 does not fit her themes at all, they're flowers and sun.

Speaking of not fitting... She's still a mess of theming. Her model is your typical ghost, complete with floating in mid-air and having invisible feet, just like ghosts in photos and so. Her theme is still supposedly "portals", but none of her abilities reflect this in the slightest, its summoning buff flowers, making an illusion, making the buff flowers pulse damage, and a big sun beam, this has NOTHING to do with portals. And finally her abilities like i just said just does not fit with anything, its flowers and sunlight... that's borderline druid or sun shaman stuff, it is neither ghost (appearance) nor portals (stated theme). 

Her abilities are great... but NOT for this frame. and her 4 just does not fit in at all.

 

Finally, i just want to reiterate that this is a MASSIVE slap in the face to ember, her abilities seem to showcase smoldering flames/light, and her 4 is a big freaking fire beam... Yet ember is getting none of this love, what uses does ember even have at this point? Why is she not getting the awesome fire beam?

 

I'm personally feeling very disillusioned, it seems to me that DE has not even looked at the feedback in this thread... at all.

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So her 1st ability has a radius around each altar. Reb mentioned that this radius will refresh the buff's duration, unsure if you have to be in the radius to pick up the buff for the first time though

2nd ability can be charged to move faster

Her 3rd ability launches little orbs around her that hit and cc enemies. Unsure what their damage or CC effect is for sure.

4th ability visual is zoned down a bit to not take up as much of the screen

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So, these discussions are meaningless, aren’t they? The sun is still there,nobody sees this feedback.

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Holding 2nd ability should just lock your Y axis (so you do not fall down), increase your move speed (maybe tie it to power strength), and make you intangible. The reason is because I can see holding it in order to move quickly looked clunky, as in it would be hard to judge where you are going to end up. This would also make wisp feel more "wispy". You could even make it so passing near enemies fears them (maybe with both forms, holding the button and just tapping it). 

Next, what I assume is the 3rd ability, the aoe stun. May I suggest having it spawn Will'o wisp type things that are duration based and indestructible. They taunt enemies (for a duration) within a certain radius and fear (once, not stacking, can not be re-feared by the same wisp, line of sight based) them if they are outside of this radius. Weapon fire is absorbed by the wisp and stored. They wander away from where they spawn, but do not pull enemies with them. So eventually they will move past enemies and the enemies will return to normal. Activating 4 while these things are out will cause them to erupt in an aoe inferno with the stored damage.

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I'm really disappointed that they haven't addressed any of the feedback regarding Wisp's powers. I'm even more disappointed that they didn't address the way that her 4th power completely upstages Ember. Just a simple acknowledgement would've been huge. Instead I'm left feeling like caring in the first place was futile.

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The fact that Wisp remains as pathetically underwhelming is disheartening. Not even a mere acknowledgment. 

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