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ShikiRen

Wisp Review/Early feedback

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15 minutes ago, Rankii said:

I still hold onto the rumor that Wisp had more ghostly portal abilties but they were too difficult to impliment so instead we got some placeholders for her 3 and 4. The beam seems so out of place it had to have been taken from somewhere else, and her 3 is yet another blind or something. There's pieces of the ghostly misdirection that wisps are known for being, but I wish they had tried harder to get it to the final product. Wisp seems butchered and on the operating table even as she's apparently almost "ready" to go out.

The beam... I don't mind a good "praise the sun" joke every now and then but her 4 is so out of place it hurts. If they had dropped the portal aspect and gone ghost fire (such as will-o-wisps in traditional lore) I could sort of get by the fire aspect just make her 2 do fire damage when it moves threw an enemy, on top of distracting them, and suddenly it feels more like the theme. But a giant laser is still a giant laser no mater how you try to justify where its coming from. That would need an animation overhaul if they wanted targeted damage.

Want to keep the 4 then drop the ghost concept and just think with portals. Her 4 can stay, opening a portal to the sun is awesome for a portal frame. Her 1,2,3, and passive though will need some reworks. Want her 2 to still be a decoy? Ok have her open a portal ala Nova and have the enemies try to attack the portal version. Double tap to go threw the portal and appear on the other side. (not sure how to fix her 1, 3 and passive for this theme but I'm sure it can be done.) Point being show us the portals if shes the portal frame. Make us believe she is pulling these things out of somewhere else, not just some alt dimension cop out. It was cool for limbo, that doesn't mean you get to use it every time.

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After the latest stream I am happy with her design. Hard to know how strong she will be without numbers and mods. Imo her 4 makes the frame I just hope the numbers match the awesome visuals.

A few positive changes I noticed on the stream:

  • 2 being usable while channeling her 4
  • Looks like 4 does corrosive, radiation and heat 
  • She has some cc with her 3
  • That health regen is insane

 

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8 hours ago, Rankii said:

The movement is unique to wisp. Putting her animations on other frames won't make them float.

I was already sure but I'm sure that they do pretty much the opposite of what anyone wants at any given time.

actually, you get the idle animation float like titania idles, you just dont get the walking animation floats cus those are tied to wisp

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Woah, woah, woah... guys...

I think here is where we have to re-emphasise that Rebecca is actually not so good at previewing frames.

Things I took away from the stream:

1st Ability. Because they covered up the UI with the screen we can't see if they've streamlined the casting. Except we kind of can. It seems like instead of having a wheel of 6 orbs that you can fill with up to six of the Mote wells (they're called Motes...) you can see that the ability just has the three symbols you cycle through. Speed, Health and CC.

I'm guessing that Wisp has been modded, because you see Wisp's health at the start of the round is 500, but the second that the Health buff is dropped, it goes up to 910. So that's either a build for about 182% Strength, or it's an additive flat value of 410, I'm going to have to say the latter, because you can't easily get 182% Strength without half-ranking some of your mods.

As a support ability on the 1 cast, that's not bad, giving a Valkyr, an Inaros, a Chroma, Mesa, Gara, any frame with high EHP or high damage reduction, this is actually pretty damn good actually. As a personal buff for Wisp with her stats? Passable. Just... passable.

The CC aura triggered off at a fairly decent distance, again, this one looks like it's been modded, rather than just improved, as throwing on a Stretch and Augur Reach would have accounted for the difference in range for that. I'm a little confused as to why this one is still here with the change to her 3 and the blind on her 2.

And the Speed buff... well it's a speed buff. I don't think anyone who hates Volt's Speed will like this one. But... I could be wrong, but did it give her a fire-rate buff too? It's the Hikou Prime, so I couldn't quite tell, but it seemed faster with the buff than before it.

The ability does seem to have the Wells on a placed duration, when Reb went upstairs to look at the 'blue' node, and then jumped back down to pick up the blue key, the Wells didn't appear to still be there. So running back into the radius refreshes both the placed item's duration and the buff duration. This could be a good usability buff here, but a function nerf too, because it means that re-casting will remove the old instance of each Well type, and move it to the new location, and it increases Efficiency because a single cast is then refreshable without recasts. The functional nerf could be that this means we can't just leave it on a point and get the effects from her 3 when we want it (which was one of the positive thoughts people expressed about the potential of her 3 being stationary) and if you don't remain at a location the Well ends and you have to re-cast.

2nd Ability. This one was pretty much unchanged, although has had an additional aspect. Something a lot of people in this thread missed when they were showing the Decoy portion originally was that Wisp does turn Invisible while the Decoy is in play. I noticed it this time, and went back to double check whether this was a buff or not... and no, it's there in the original. So while it's not as long of a duration as any other Invisibility in the game... it's actually an invisibility cast, with a teleport and invulnerability function built in.

The additional function is the auto-teleport, where if you hold the cast down, it goes faster and you can then release to teleport instead of having to tap and time it. I think this one is that little mobility buff that will really play in well to using this ability offensively.

3rd Ability. DAMMIT DE EXPLAIN!!

We saw a new animation and function for her 3, which was the radial blind. Without her Wells around it emanated from her, and... well, what did you think would happen when you give a frame Radial Blind? It's a good cast on Excal, it's a good cast on any frame. If she can now also do that remotely from her place Wells on top of the base cast, then it's going to be a good function.

Okay. Well. Sure. Still seems a bit sad that they took this function from the 2's teleport and put it here instead, but hey, that's alright as long as we have that function.

But right as Rebecca was going to actually explain it, she got overwhelmed by enemies and started panicking around and lost her train of thought, so they never actually explained it.

4th Ability. It... it's still there.

But. Important improvement: You can cast her 2 while in her 4.

This, my friends, is exactly what I was talking about when I said her 4th needed support from her other abilities. Because what does being able to cast her 2 mean? It means that you can freely turn invisible, decoy enemies away from you, and even teleport to the new location to gain damage mitigation!

This is it. This is what we needed. Not what we wanted, but what we needed.

I know that I strongly advocated for a new 4.

I know. And I still do.

But...

Here's the thing. If DE genuinely wants to keep this 4, which it seems they do, letting us cast 2 while using 4 is the support needed to make the ability work.

Along with the radial CC function, speed boost and health boost from her 1, this is... enough.

tl;dr

I'm unsatisfied with the frame as a whole, the concept is broken, the 4th ability is the wrong kind for this frame, but here's the thing: Now the frame functions.

As upsetting as it is to not get something like Lost Souls for her 4, now the 4 they've actually given her has the opportunity to work.

Direct damage, animation locked abilities need to have something that will allow them to work. The same way as walking about firing your gun can have results, but doesn't have the same result as firing your gun while using your other abilities and jumping/dodging in between, thus firing your ability laser without anything else doesn't have anywhere near the same results as having access to your other abilities and mobility.

Now that you have access to her most potentially powerful survival cast, and access to refreshable buffs? We're okay.

Oh, and a couple more things:

13 hours ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

You think? I am no programmer, but I don't think switching out one idle pose/animation with another should be that hard if it is already possible with a gun. Also it just flat out feels like they are favoring the guns more then melee on purpose. For wisp, it would just need to change the animation for the legs at least to make it look like she is floating at least.

DE use the exact same skeleton and animations throughout so as to have a simple library to reference when setting up the peer-to-peer sessions for playing the game. Doubling up every animation in the game doesn't really help with that, and it's why they haven't actually done this to any other frame in the first place.

As for 'just changing the animation on the legs', yeah, no, that's not a thing. That's what I mean by 'doubling up' on the animations. These aren't live animations that you can adjust based on the positioning or specific frame, you would have to literally create a second animation for every single movement that is achieved in the Melee system. At a rough estimate that's... 73 stances, each with combos ranging from 3 to 6 moves (with some overlap, so call it 12 unique animations) making about 864 new animations there, plus weapon-type specific Air attacks (with some overlap let's call that 20 animations instead of 24), plus the regular animations such as Slams, Air Slams, Spin Attacks, Wall Attacks, Finishers for front and back for the different weapon types, Ground Finishers for the different weapon types...

And this is on top of run, sprint, shoot (different kinds of shoot), access console, pick up object, revive team member... you're looking at easily over 1000 Animations that would need to be redone entirely for Wisp.

It's genuinely not simple, my friend. I can't even accurately count the number of potential animations that would need to be redone and coded in to be used explicitly by Wisp. Even if you're discounting the basic movement ones.

Again, this is why they haven't done it for any other frame previously.

11 hours ago, Covenanthunter said:
  • That health regen is insane

Don't forget, that could have been Reb's god-mode hacks, not strictly something Wisp was doing. While she may have health regen on her 1, I don't know if that's the strength of it.

7 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I gotta say, for being a stationary gameplay frame, Wisp handled that level 35 mission worse than I expected.  Little concerned.

And... no, Rebecca is just terrible at trying to multi-task previewing a new frame and playing a new game mode ^^ Modded well, with better modded weapons, this game mode will be interesting, but not as much of a challenge as Reb made it out to be.

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  • Citation

    [PH] Sol Gate - Wisp tears open and sustains a portal to the sun to harness its destructive power. While sustaining the portal, Wisp focuses the solar flares into a primary beam with curving flares that deals continous Corrosive b Corrosive, Heat b Heat, and Radiation b Radiation damage per second with a high status chance to all enemies it touches; as long as the beams are in contact with a target, the damage per second is increased upon all targets in the beam's path. Press the ability key while active to deactivate this ability. 

     

don't forget the most important part about the dmg scaling issue of her 4, now this is not a problem anymore

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Overall, I'm pretty ok with Wisp. She still has the thematic issues (I can barley justify the sun beam as kinda will-o-wisp) but everything looks like it'll actually be useful.

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1 minute ago, Atsia said:

Overall, I'm pretty ok with Wisp. She still has the thematic issues (I can barley justify the sun beam as kinda will-o-wisp) but everything looks like it'll actually be useful.

I think people just need to drop the Ghost theme idea. It’s not like Revenant where he is obviously supposed to be Eidolon but they made him something else. We all just assumed her theme to be ghost and we were wrong. The real theme issue is the portal frame in which she was described as (which honestly her visual design does look like something that would bring traveling through space portals) has next to no connection to her powers. Her 4 is the only one that has anything to do with portals, one in her hands one in the center of the sun (awesome use of space portals btw).

We need to stop claiming she’s a ghost frame and focus on the portal frame lacking portals.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I think people just need to drop the Ghost theme idea. It’s not like Revenant where he is obviously supposed to be Eidolon but they made him something else. We all just assumed her theme to be ghost and we were wrong. The real theme issue is the portal frame in which she was described as (which honestly her visual design does look like something that would bring traveling through space portals) has next to no connection to her powers. Her 4 is the only one that has anything to do with portals, one in her hands one in the center of the sun (awesome use of space portals btw).

We need to stop claiming she’s a ghost frame and focus on the portal frame lacking portals.

Same, I pretty much dropped any ideas of a ghost frame the first time they showcased her. IMO, I (choose to) think DE meant letss opening portals and more the ability to summon stuff from her in little "wisp" dimension.  Her 4 completely shoots that in the foot, but whatever.

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4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Don't forget, that could have been Reb's god-mode hacks, not strictly something Wisp was doing. While she may have health regen on her 1, I don't know if that's the strength of it. 

While that could be I don't think that is the case. If you watch closely she dies a few times during the stream, but godmode restores her health to full. She has this happen once before she has health regen. Then she activates her buffs and gains +max health and the regen. Later she dies a few more times and her health is just restored to max when she hits 0. She may have turned on a health regen hack at the same time she picks up the health buff, but it seems more likely that is the effect.

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1 hour ago, Covenanthunter said:

While that could be I don't think that is the case. If you watch closely she dies a few times during the stream, but godmode restores her health to full. She has this happen once before she has health regen. Then she activates her buffs and gains +max health and the regen. Later she dies a few more times and her health is just restored to max when she hits 0. She may have turned on a health regen hack at the same time she picks up the health buff, but it seems more likely that is the effect.

You're not wrong there, to be fair. However, consider that this is a 1 ability, it will be in absolutely no way better than Oberon's Renewal (and if it is I will join Xenogelion on a goat-themed Crusade...)

I don't know how the regen she got was so high, buuuuut... I have seen god-mode actually regen health without death on the streams, it's not overly significant, but health regen works on a value of acceleration. So in theory even if Wisp is only giving you +10 per second, god-mode might be accelerating that beyond what it could originally be.

In any case, any health regen at all in Warframe is welcome, so whatever it is, as long as picking up one of the Motes does that? Fair enough.

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I have already made comments about her 2 and 3. Now I want to make suggestions for her passive and 4.

Her passive needs to effect crouch/sliding as well as running. It also needs to have a duration. As in when you jump run or parkour it needs to apply a buff when you land or come out of the action for a few seconds. It also looked like she still took CC and knock back. Moa stomps were still stumbling her. She needs to be immune to all of that during  her passive. passive needs to have void damage like operators or some kind of true damage. Adaptive damage?

RANT WARNING

I do not think this would be too much since so many frames struggle in anything higher than 30 (rebb was struggling in just over 30, in fact she would have failed the mission if god mode didn't save her defense target) because they are squishy. Another part of the problem is I feel like DE is balancing frames around team play too much. It started back with the Ember nerfs. Logically if you want to make it so that solo players can do stuff then having a frame like ember that allows you to tackle missions reasonably well (she fell off towards late game even before the nerfs) is good. However, They nerfed her because in average levels it was too "press 4 to win". They ended up not making her more interactive to play, but instead just nerrfed the S#&amp;&#036; out of her. I have a decent build for her now, but your'e still going to get gimped around level 50 and you are not going to be efficient enough at killing, even when solo. What is my point? Rebb was too scared to use a frame at >>>ENEMY LEVEL 35<<< without god mode. Not only could she not stay alive, she could not even kill enemies hardly nor keep her objective alive.This is a new frame too, and it is not like Wisp is a support frame, she has a radial blind and a giant solar beam. If they want people to be able to solo things then they need to stop being stingy with frames.

At this point it is not even exclusive to solo play, If you want to kill enemies at higher levels or even bosses you have to use weapons. The only exceptions are Mesa and Titania. My point here is the game is getting boring and stale when you basically are just playing an FPS. When they nerfed Mesa a few years back so that she had to actually aim at something (which I think was a good change actually), they also nerfed Mag's greedy pull. Around that time is when they changed Ember and other frames to make it so that you actually had to interact with the game meaningfully. However they did not give any power for what they took away in a lot of areas. Then they added rivens and weapons became THE way to kill things. Trinity fell out of the meta (partially because she was boring AF) mostly because energy management became easier (which was a good change) and team play went away. Eidelons were added and trinity had a job. However other frames can do that job, if not better. Orbs mothers were added and it is basically a bullet hell like the rest of the game. Staying alive is the key, and killing things with weapons or gimmicks is the answer. 

This. Is. Boring.

 

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I'm glad people kept this going. We tried. Quite simply if they had done 10% of the work they did on Hildryn for Wisp, this thread would not have existed as is. Had it actually conformed to the ghost theme in a usable way, she wouldn't just be an upgrade to Tintanias hover animation. Had she any semblance of use in mission, she would be the biggest reason to farm the new map.

She is none of these. I was very well considering buying her straight out with plat as soon as she dropped given the difficult farm for the new frames lately. I figured I'd be stuck on Jupiter for a month with 3% drop chance on rotation c. They now had better straight give you her for doing something you would already find useful to farm, ala Khora in Sanctuary Onslaught, or I doubt she will even qualify as Mastery Fodder. Come to think of it, if she is the only reason to farm the new Gas City, she will have single handedly destroyed that update. Anybody farming Eris anymore? And Mesa is one of the best frames in the game.

To say this has been wholly disappointing would be incorrect. Warframe always has a million things to farm in a million different places that have to be repeated a million times. This is officially one less place to farm. It will not disrupt my current goals at all, and has been the first frame since Harrow that I can say this. Here's to hoping some ephemera or something drops in the new mode because Wisp is officially a hard pass for me.

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7 minutes ago, F8ted said:

I'm glad people kept this going. We tried. Quite simply if they had done 10% of the work they did on Hildryn for Wisp, this thread would not have existed as is. Had it actually conformed to the ghost theme in a usable way, she wouldn't just be an upgrade to Tintanias hover animation. Had she any semblance of use in mission, she would be the biggest reason to farm the new map.

Quite honestly, what hit me the hardest was simply how terribly she did at the game mode it looks like she may drop from.  Unmodded Vauban could've done it better, and that's not a high bar.

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Quite honestly, what hit me the hardest was simply how terribly she did at the game mode it looks like she may drop from.  Unmodded Vauban could've done it better, and that's not a high bar.

Vauban isn't exactly as bad effectively as people claim, he's just anti-fun. Grap you Prisma Obex, entropy detonation, range on vortex suck up the whole room and blow them all up in one finisher. 

Wisp is both anti-fun, and all that bravado for her 4 was incorrect. I forget that unless they forget that an ability scales 2-3 times with mods like exalted weapons or Whip claw, the ability does laughable amounts of damage. If they don't literally double it then add some, yeah, she is a nuke frame with a terrible nuke. Funny how I was calling it the other way for so long because I forgot who was developing it. The kind of sad thing is after watching years of devstreams, waiting for system redesigns that never happen, and literally nothing meeting any sort of player expectations I am beginning to wonder if they need to hand design over to another team. Rebecca, Steve, Sheldon et all, have layed an amazing foundation, but they are tired. Watching them interview with Mogamu they literally don't expect anything to be well received anymore. This game needs someone to come in say "these haven't been working for years, and here are solutions that successful games have utilized in groundbreaking fashion to improve player experience." 

It's not one thing. Assuming a Warframe has a perfect kit with each ability useful but not required, they are still based on a broken damage/shield/health/energy system. Every single Warframe. The UI hasn't been appreciably updated in ever. The loot system is so terrible, you either never need a resource again (ferrite etc.), or it is so rare you have to farm it constantly whenever something requires it to build (Toroids etc). 

Now I hate to be this hard on them, but I have been waiting for flat damage mods to be removed since before primed pressure point was released, and that's literally a flip of a switch. Forget melee 3.0, damage 3.0, or Archwing 3.0. They literallycannot figure out how to code Serration into the Braton.

Every once in a while I get a wild hair going on and give the team a flood of feedback. Usually takes them a year+ to figure out I was right. Take Vacuum. Would you believe I was one of the people complaining about it when Carrier was first released? I asked for universal vacuum then, kubrows didn't even exist. Then "The Vacuum Within" years later they expanded it to all sentinels. Again I asked for universal vacuum, and claimed the worst possible thing they could do is Nerf the effect. Well, now fetch exists, and hell, I still think if they insist on the broken loot system in this game VACUUM SHOULD BE UNIVERSAL!!!!

But hey, I still keep playing so jokes on me right?

 

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10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

DE use the exact same skeleton and animations throughout so as to have a simple library to reference when setting up the peer-to-peer sessions for playing the game. Doubling up every animation in the game doesn't really help with that, and it's why they haven't actually done this to any other frame in the first place.

As for 'just changing the animation on the legs', yeah, no, that's not a thing. That's what I mean by 'doubling up' on the animations. These aren't live animations that you can adjust based on the positioning or specific frame, you would have to literally create a second animation for every single movement that is achieved in the Melee system. At a rough estimate that's... 73 stances, each with combos ranging from 3 to 6 moves (with some overlap, so call it 12 unique animations) making about 864 new animations there, plus weapon-type specific Air attacks (with some overlap let's call that 20 animations instead of 24), plus the regular animations such as Slams, Air Slams, Spin Attacks, Wall Attacks, Finishers for front and back for the different weapon types, Ground Finishers for the different weapon types...

And this is on top of run, sprint, shoot (different kinds of shoot), access console, pick up object, revive team member... you're looking at easily over 1000 Animations that would need to be redone entirely for Wisp.

It's genuinely not simple, my friend. I can't even accurately count the number of potential animations that would need to be redone and coded in to be used explicitly by Wisp. Even if you're discounting the basic movement ones.

Again, this is why they haven't done it for any other frame previously.

I may be misreading or I did not make my point clear (in which case my bad and I am sorry) but I am not asking for an animation set to effect stances or attacks. If wisp has a melee weapon out and is standing still, she should be floating as if she is holding a gun. Animation sets usually only give you different idle poses and animations when gun is out. Soon as you start running with gun or firing, it goes to default pose until the player stops moving. Once the player idles, it uses the chosen animation set again. That's what I want for melee weapons. I don't need nor want melee stances being affected by the selected animation set. That would be impossible and unreasonable. Wisp however, should be floating when running with melee out because she is able to do that with guns out. Obviously (not trying to sound obnoxious) when she performs an attack of any kind it should go to the default animations until she stops attack. Then, she floats around instead of running with the melee weapon out and gets to use the animation set selected while melee is out as well rather than having to switch back to gun mode. 

Hope this helps clarify my ideas.

 

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14 hours ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

Hope this helps clarify my ideas.

It does, but then that's still another 24 odd animations to redo before her release for both her Noble and Agile animation sets.

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18 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It does, but then that's still another 24 odd animations to redo before her release for both her Noble and Agile animation sets.

Yeah but at the same time, they did it for the entire set of both primary and secondary weapons which outnumber the melee weapons combined. Also it does not have to be before her release. Just let us know that they will work on it with the melee updates (which have been below average by the way).

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3 minutes ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

Yeah but at the same time, they did it for the entire set of both primary and secondary weapons which outnumber the melee weapons combined. Also it does not have to be before her release.

Over the course of months, my friend, over the course of months. My entire point was that this isn't a quick process, or even something they actually wanted to attempt in the first place. It was just a byproduct of the visual design of not having feet.

I would not expect them to do the melee poses at all, and I take every changed animation we've actually had so far as a bonus that I wasn't going to get normally.

Next person:

18 hours ago, Wyvern_WX-0-1 said:

I do not think this would be too much since so many frames struggle in anything higher than 30 (rebb was struggling in just over 30, in fact she would have failed the mission if god mode didn't save her defense target) because they are squishy.

I think that a lot of the player base will not agree with you. Frames are all balanced, unmodded, to take on level 30 content (it's why they level up to 30) according to DE. With modding, frames are able to take on much higher content, and again, this is according to DE.

According to the player base, however... frames only start to drop off around level 80-100. Even Ember, with her lack of survivability, can function at level 80-100.

Some frames do struggle, like Ember, but considering players have recorded evidence of not only hitting level 300 solo with every single frame in the game, they have also shown themselves doing it with a vast majority of weapons, not hiding behind Meta builds, and on game modes where the enemies deal a base 3x damage compared to their regular forms (Mot, for example).

Yes you have to use weapons for most of them, but that's kind of the point. Warframes are not purely abilities or purely weapons, it's the blending of the two that allows every frame to succeed.

The point to emphasise is not that the frame seemed to be under-performing, but that the player was under-performing. Rebecca has shown many, many times throughout her Prime Time and DevStream demonstrations, that trying to play an unfamiliar frame and explain new content at the same time often causes her massive drops in performance at the game. And even when playing without the pressure of having to do something new and different, with a frame she's familiar with, she's not exactly the best in the game.

Until we, the players, all get Wisp in our hands... just take Rebecca's performance with a grain of salt. I'm 100% confident that, just with what I've seen, I could scale Wisp beyond Sortie levels easily.

Next person:

16 hours ago, F8ted said:

Wisp is both anti-fun, and all that bravado for her 4 was incorrect.

Most of us were never thinking that her 4 was a 'nuke', F8ted... we were all worried that it was mono-directional and had no support from her other abilities (other than the really minor buffs she could get from her 1.

Unfortunately for both you and I, letting Wisp use her 2 while using her 4 is exactly what will allow that ability to function as intended, rather than being a death sentence for her the moment she goes into the animation.

Before she had only a short-range CC ability, a tissue-thin health buff and a minor movement speed buff to survive with while using her 4. These were all completely insubstantial and about as much use as a neon sign over her head saying 'trying to kill you, please don't kill me first'.

When they showed her 2 on this stream, I actually had to go back and double check the footage from the last one, because I saw something there that everyone seemed to miss entirely including me; it's not just a decoy/teleport ability. Wisp actually goes invisible for the duration, meaning that the decoy is absolutely going to work (unlike Saryn's, where she's still visible and easy to shoot). She goes invisible, enemies only see one source of aggro in the form of the decoy, and teleporting to it grants actual damage mitigation.

So when they said that she can now use it while in her 4? Regrettably that's it. That's what she needed. That's the support that will allow her to use her 4 and function as a Warframe.

The ability doesn't deal a lot of damage in the first few hits, only about 700-1000 damage of each type to level 35 enemies (although that was on Amalgams, that seem to have damage resistance) and this was compared to the 35s and 40s she was getting with her Hikou on those same amalgam enemies. So it's more than a modded weapon at least, and it does have Status, so it'll strip armour, proc Radiation and Heat too. I'm guessing that she didn't have any kind of full build on (although there was something there... something...) meaning this could, just 'could', be an actual high damage dealer because they did say that the more you hit enemies the more it scales and that it does penetrate to hit enemies beyond at the same time. Hitting a line of enemies could be more beneficial than just trying to hose down one enemy like she was doing.

But my argument this whole time is that... it's rocket tag. She dies or they die. And because there are more than one enemy facing off against her... that's going to be her without some way to survive.

Turning invisible, having another target draw aggro, and then being able to make yourself temporarily invulnerable is it.

Also they seem to have taken her 'blind' off her 2 and made it part of her 3 instead, and it also emanates primarily from Wisp, with the bonus of emanating from the Wells (which is definitely something they've done based on our feedback).

If she has a radial blind? And invisibility? And a decoy? And invulnerability phases? And a radial stun from her 1? And a speed boost from her 1? And Health Regen from her 1?

Sadly, that's a functioning Warframe.

She wasn't before.

Now she is.

I'm disappointed, but now I'll be able to play her. She works. And as much as I bemoan the loss of opportunity that something like our proposed 4th abilities gave the frame... she's gone from a frame that directly countered her own usability to one that has a saving grace.

From 'F' tier up to about 'D+' or even 'C-' if you're generous. Heck, based on just her 1, 2 and 3, I could probably make her perform at a 'B' tier, I think.

Give her a chance.

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On 2019-05-04 at 10:49 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I think people just need to drop the Ghost theme idea. It’s not like Revenant where he is obviously supposed to be Eidolon but they made him something else. We all just assumed her theme to be ghost and we were wrong. The real theme issue is the portal frame in which she was described as (which honestly her visual design does look like something that would bring traveling through space portals) has next to no connection to her powers. Her 4 is the only one that has anything to do with portals, one in her hands one in the center of the sun (awesome use of space portals btw).

We need to stop claiming she’s a ghost frame and focus on the portal frame lacking portals.

Indeed. Visually though she does use portals to plop her Mote flowers down by summoning it from the portal above her head. Her 2 could use a fading portal effect in front of her when spawning the light clone, and maybe one behind her when she teleports.

Also that selection circle that appears when Reb moused over a Reservoir looks like Pablo's UI handiwork, and the art resembles a portal though we haven't found out its function.

She's coming along nicely in that department.

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@SekanYeah, I'm 100% sure I have done better in this thread showing why Wisp has problems outside of being able to teleport during her 4. Was not even on my double primed animal instinct radar. 

I've gone through it, but for ease, she doesn't bring anything to the table that someone else doesn't already do better. Any frame used for buffing: Chroma, Banshee, Oberon, Nova etc buff better, and easier. Any stealth frame has a better stealth mechanic, including Octavia which also buffs better. I mean ffs they are going to be alerted and shoot the decoy every time it's used. That's not even Shade level of stealth. Then she has her supbar nukes that will be compared to the likes of Saryn, Banshee, and Mesa. Hell half the "buff frames" have better nukes. 

Too many people be like, "nah I like Wisp with all that garbage". Confused the ever living hell out of the developers. If anyone thinks this thread, or my complaints are going to be anywhere near as relentless or as numerous as after her release they got another thing coming. This will be a solid month of "fix Wisp" threads and likely a panel question at Tennocon.

 

Edit: I meant to shoot that @Birdframe_Prime but it won't let me edit out the mention. Whatever.

 

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45 minutes ago, F8ted said:

I've gone through it, but for ease, she doesn't bring anything to the table that someone else doesn't already do better.

Okay, let me play Devil's Advocate on this one. I'm going to be super-positive and find things that are good about this frame for a bit. You know my real stance, but this is for debate purposes.

So. Wisp has no Stealth mechanics. Invisibility in Wisp's case is used as a Mitigation mechanic. She pops in and out of visibility in order to negate damage, not as a means to be stealthy. In that respect, she's actually performing well.

Wisp's buffs, while they won't be able to compete with some of the other buff frames, that's because they are on the 1 ability. Very few frames that buff do so with that, they most often have more powerful buffs on the more costly casts. Wisp's buffs are Speed, Health and CC Aura, the CC aura is literally just a Vauban Tesla attached to you with longer duration, the Health buff appears to be a fairly large additive value and Regen of some kind, and the speed buff is a weaker Volt buff.

Considering this is a 1 cast, with three different effects, the individual effects are actually surprisingly good.

Her 2 is, again, not a Stealth function, it's a damage Mitigation function. And from what I've seen, it's a pretty damn good one. Makes her invisible, draws all the aggro away from her, and has both mobility and an invulnerability period. This is her best cast, and for good reason, I don't know of a frame that combines these four things on a single cast, and I'm convinced that, as far as the purpose of it goes, it's actually one of the best of its kind so far, especially for the cost.

Her 3... Okay, we didn't see it properly. We saw the original, we saw the animation of the refined. One key point it did encompass was a blind. Radial blinds are good. A radial blind that affects not only enemies directly around you, but also at a secondary, tertiary and even quaternary locations means that the range can potentially exceed Excal or even old Mirage if those locations are used well.

But there might be other effects too. Is this also a damage function? Is it also a debuff on enemies? I do wish DE would explain that, but all I can do is send off a tweet and see if they respond...

And her 4 could be good damage. With the ability to move around in it at reasonably high speed, CC enemies that are too close, regen your health and also use that fantastic 2 at the same time, the scaling damage could actually end up being really effective. While I don't see it being a room clearer, I definitely see it being a good call to blind enemies and throw that down a corridor into the enemy that are approaching.

Is she without flaw? No. Again, you know my position on her, and I know yours.

But take a fresh, unbiased look at her.

The buffs are not as good as any one frame would do, no. But there are three of them on one single cast which is better than having to take three frames to have that effect. They are also long-duration and refreshable without re-casting which will make that very, very efficient in situations where she can come back to the cast points. There are plenty of game modes where this is possible, and sometimes where it's required, so don't be overly judgemental of that idea.

The survivability of the frame is good. In fact it could be amazing. With inbuilt invisibility, an ability decoy, teleportation, blinds, and health regen she will survive everything except the amount of direct damage that would one-shot every other caster frame in the game.

And the damage is possible, even if it would be more effective to take good weapons, she does have an option to deal high ability damage. It just takes the frame actually ensuring that she's using her buffs, using her CC, using her damage mitigation... kind of exactly like the other frames have to. Mesa can (I know) just use Peacemaker and hose down enemies before they touch her. But nobody thinks that's the best way to run her, so they use her CC, they use her damage mitigation. Same with Revenant (and yeah, there are problems with him too) you can use his 4 to deal high damage over time and you can just spin into a room, coat everything with lasers and carry on, but again, people won't do that on its own, they will use decoys with his 1, they will use damage mitigation with his 2, they will use his 3 to get out and recast 2 or add some charges to it.

I genuinely think that this frame now functions. It didn't before.

If DevStream 127 had been the reveal instead of 126, I don't think that we would have had as much of a problem with the frame as we did.

The fact that she was previewed in such a poor state to begin with gave us some hope that we could change more than actually got changed. We couldn't. DE really wanted to get this 'steer the animation' 4 out of the way.

And as much as I would rather something different, I stopped, took that fresh look at the frame as if I was genuinely seeing it for the first time, and... yeah. Okay. I don't like it, but I think it's going to be alright.

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@Birdframe_Prime I can't start this again. We can reread each other's posts rather than reiterate it every few days. I've said my piece. Her survivability is laughable, did you not watch Rebecca play fully cheat mode modded? I know of plenty of Warframes with invulnerability windows, rocked Naramon when it was infinite stealth, and have played Excalibur since he had proto-bullet jump as an ability. The new view is the nail in the coffin, just like the view of Khora when they abandoned IPS changes. I have Rolling Guard, literally all my Warframes have a better invulnerability window. I have a Huras Kubrow, literally all my Warframes have better stealth survivability. Clem is more useful than her entire kit.

What's maddening is the only things they changed were Nerfing her 2, making her 3 usable because no one will use her 1 and letting people teleport during her 4. This never addressed anything. A usable Warframe? 9 times out of 10 I have either an Ivara or Loki on my team that watches the action from the corner to hilariously productive effect. 

Also, for the record no one uses Mesa for her CC. There is just no reason not to have it running because unlike Wisp it just works for a whole minute. Peacemaker has had the Acolyte nerfed out of it and stands next to Exalted Blade, and Dex Pixia as the best exalted weapons by a huge margin. Hildryn tries to come close. Even then, do you see a lot of Excaliburs spinning with their sword as if it were the Atterax? Nah, that would be terribly inefficient. Prism wipes out every single spawn in the room until you deactivate and blind whatever has spawned in the meantime, and is cheaper than Wisps 3/ Excaliburs 2.

You play how you want to for sure. As will I. I prefer 90% damage done and 10% damage taken on my scoreboard. Wisp will have no place there. If I wanted to justify any different, I'd play Trinity.  Hell Trinity with Wisp animation for 30p sounds good to me. I'll least reward the work that was done well. Far less farm too.

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please let wisp 4 could make more damage than mase 4,it's fair,because mase 4 could kill evething inside the focus ring up to 50 meters away, wisp can not do that thing,wisp 4  just like hold a lazer gun.

 

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