Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

ShikiRen

Wisp Review/Early feedback

Recommended Posts

ETA one week. Guess we're stuck staring at the sun.

Portals-to-fires seems to be her actual theme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Wisp Thotz:

1. She's my go-to Interception frame....and nothing else.  Those stationary buff pods also have a bit of AoE damage possible in them.  So put together a build that can spam that, drop your pods at the 4 points, use Zen energy dash, spam death on any enemies trying to take the points.

2. She's not a Wisp.  She's yet another in the WTF mismatches between her appearance, supposed theme, and actual powers.

3. She's going to get the same generic tank-ish mods build I put on all the frames that don't have defense abilities.  Adaptation, health, armor, here we come.

4. She might be getting released with Disruption, but I seriously doubt she'll be played there at all after the first week of her release.  We're finally getting a game mode that rewards fast and efficient gameplay, and she is neither of those things.

5. She's not even in the same zip code as Mesa Prime when it comes to her obvious assets.  

5a. When are we getting a male frame in a speedo?  I mean, I'm a heterosexual male, but I also believe fair is fair.  Plus, as a heterosexual male, I want a frame that makes me look good for the lady-frames 😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2019-05-07 at 6:57 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

You know, I think this is where the entire discussion about Wisp gets confused.

People keep saying 'ghost type' over and over, but aren't thinking about what Wisps supposedly were and did while being 'ghostly'.

There's a key (fictional) difference between 'ghosts' as spirits with certain supernatural abilities and 'wisps' as a kind of sub-species, and that is the specifics of where they appear and what they do while they're there.

For example, where a ghost is supposedly able to move things or even possess a person, a Wisp never does that, not once that I've read in my extensive fiction binges on the topics. Where a ghost is able to curse others or cause direct harm, only what's called a 'Wisp Mother' is able to do that in the fiction, a fully developed entity that controls other wisps and is able to defend their home from invaders.

The stories about wisps are almost exclusively about them being harmless in and of themselves, but become dangerous when people follow them, often leading people into natural traps or to a grove that they inhabit. People don't die from Wisps, as such, people die from drowning, falling or from being lost for so long they starve or die of thirst. And, as I said, sometimes they're benign, leading travellers out of danger on a whim, or leading a warrior away from their pursuers and towards their goal.

You, and lots of others in this thread, are not wrong. She's got the wrong power set for her 'theme', but I don't think that it's actually too far off.

For example, if you take Wisp herself as a 'wisp mother', there's a lot to be said about the powers in relation to that. Going invisible is just part of how Wisps supposedly flicker in and out of existence, they disappear from where you were looking and re-appear somewhere else just as quickly. Having it be part of her kit as 'being in the air makes you invisible' is a great Warframe adaptation of that concept.

Her 1 then creates wells that summon these little plant things that hover around you... almost like little wisps? Visually they aren't little lights, but they are similar. She's a Wisp mother getting stronger by controlling wisps around her. Sort of.

Her 2 is... actually perfect. It's incredibly in theme. She sends out an actual copy of herself as light, turning invisible while it's active, and can teleport to it. The addition of damage mitigation in that teleport is another functional Warframe adaptation that's very welcome.

Her 3 has been updated. They didn't actually explain what it does, but from the visuals of it, it's a radial blind. She's dazzling them with wisp light and that's completely on theme. Radial blinds are good in Warframe, and the idea that this is also one that emanates from her 1 casts as well (they did show it having an effect just from Wisp, although when they came to explain it, the game play got in the way) means that you could have potentially far more effective range on the thing... We'll have to see.

That 4 though... I mean... no. No, it's completely out of place and half a dozen people have come up with better ones even forgetting the theme, there are functionally better casts that would work incredibly well for this frame that don't rely on direct damage to do something.

If you want an example of that, scroll on back to page 33 of the thread, my comment starts with a Thor Ragnarok reference for fun ^^ The ability Lost Souls would be just a functional ability that then plays into all her other casts, making each stronger, but also having its own basic strong aspects that make it worth casting even without her other bits of kit.

The tl;dr of this:

Wisps are very nature themed. They are, in a way, technically ghosts. But the mythology around them is actually far more nature themed than basic ghost powers ever would be. While it's unfortunate that you didn't get the ghost themed frame that you wanted, I think it's actually far more unfortunate that we didn't get the Wisp themed frame that we wanted...

First of all thank you for the response.

Secondly, telling my expectation of mythology phenomenon which I have always thought was ghostly is nature based and also saying in short that im wrong and I shouldn't considered her to be ghostly yet still passive says otherwise. No I won't agree with that because we all have different expectations of the subject and depending on what you look for when you research it you will get different understandings of it.

You are just basically putting science(nature aspect) in a fantasy game that is not real while myself is putting mythology(ghostly) aspect in it  to reference it. To me a game is a place where you can immerse yourself to your fullest and forget about time so putting science here does not help with immersion and you could say the same about mythology - there is no who is right and who is wrong aspect. So when you said wisps nature by origin, I will respectfully disagree. 

Yes I will agree with your flame aspect of it it would match her theme more but her being a buffer ridiculously out of place and is one of the reasons I'm not interested in the frame. I don't need another buffer when i have Titania, Oberon, Harrow, Trinity etc. the game is becoming so repetitive that I'm unconsciously ignoring repetitive content and I'm afraid wisp will fall in that category like Titania, Harrow and Trinity already are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Son_of_Anubis said:

No I won't agree with that because we all have different expectations of the subject

Ah, now this is where you misunderstand me.

I wasn't saying you were wrong. A ghostly frame would have a hell of a lot of great things about it. I was going into detail on the topic of there being differences in how the things are portrayed and then using that to show that if DE were to actually go into the Wisp theme fully there are some incredibly good powers that could come out based on that. And that the powers they've started to put in lean far more into that aspect than they do a dedicated 'ghost' frame.

You're not wrong that a ghost frame would have a lot of overlap, mostly because Wisps are supposedly ghosts too, but the difference is what makes it cool. It's the difference that makes for theming a frame's abilities into something that DE can then make unique. I would love a ghost frame. But given the topic of a 'wisp' frame, there is so much mythology to explore there on its own.

If anything, you could say that I would far rather DE save the ghostly abilities for a frame that's dedicated to be ghostly themed. Why? Because you can even further sub-divide the mythology. Why not a specific 'poltergeist' themed frame? The idea of a malicious spirit that is unseen and uses telekinetic chaos against its victims and even possession?

Or you could pick something like a Mogwai, a chinese ghost that takes vengeance on beings that caused them harm, and create a frame that could create duplicates of itself and use damage dealt to it and its doubles in order to hurt enemies, using the 'ghostly' nature to mitigate damage and charge it into another effect.

The world we have has explored its mythology for thousands of years, and by taking a slice of it, rather than a broad swathe, DE can create frames and abilities that are vastly different from each other even though they share roots.

I mean, look at the difference between a European Vampire and an Egyptian Mummy. There's actually not a lot of difference at all. Just the specifics of what the abilities do. A vampire can sometimes turn into bats, while a mummy can sometimes turn into a swarm of scarabs. Sometimes vampires control thralls, sometimes a mummy controls thralls. Vampires suck the blood of their victims to extend their life, mummies drain the life force of their victims to extend their life. Turn to dust, turn to sand. Summon malaise and sleep, summon plagues. Set against werewolves, set against cats XD

The whole point of my comment wasn't ever to say 'you're wrong, this is not a ghost frame' it was to say 'yeah, it's a ghost frame, but look at the type of ghost, aren't all these things it's supposed to do something cool and have applications in the game?'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ah, now this is where you misunderstand me.

I wasn't saying you were wrong. A ghostly frame would have a hell of a lot of great things about it. I was going into detail on the topic of there being differences in how the things are portrayed and then using that to show that if DE were to actually go into the Wisp theme fully there are some incredibly good powers that could come out based on that. And that the powers they've started to put in lean far more into that aspect than they do a dedicated 'ghost' frame.

You're not wrong that a ghost frame would have a lot of overlap, mostly because Wisps are supposedly ghosts too, but the difference is what makes it cool. It's the difference that makes for theming a frame's abilities into something that DE can then make unique. I would love a ghost frame. But given the topic of a 'wisp' frame, there is so much mythology to explore there on its own.

If anything, you could say that I would far rather DE save the ghostly abilities for a frame that's dedicated to be ghostly themed. Why? Because you can even further sub-divide the mythology. Why not a specific 'poltergeist' themed frame? The idea of a malicious spirit that is unseen and uses telekinetic chaos against its victims and even possession?

 

From I understood I thought you were telling me I was wrong on how I envision it. My bad maybe I misunderstood.

I do agree with you that type of frame their making has nothing do with a do with a ghost plus I'm not sure why her passive is there. 

It would be cool though if we could get a ghost frame that was a saboteur/destroyer/stealth frame in future that doesn't combined other warframe abilities and just be unique 

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Or you could pick something like a Mogwai, a chinese ghost that takes vengeance on beings that caused them harm, and create a frame that could create duplicates of itself and use damage dealt to it and its doubles in order to hurt enemies, using the 'ghostly' nature to mitigate damage and charge it into another effect.

The world we have has explored its mythology for thousands of years, and by taking a slice of it, rather than a broad swathe, DE can create frames and abilities that are vastly different from each other even though they share roots.

I mean, look at the difference between a European Vampire and an Egyptian Mummy. There's actually not a lot of difference at all. Just the specifics of what the abilities do. A vampire can sometimes turn into bats, while a mummy can sometimes turn into a swarm of scarabs. Sometimes vampires control thralls, sometimes a mummy controls thralls. Vampires suck the blood of their victims to extend their life, mummies drain the life force of their victims to extend their life. Turn to dust, turn to sand. Summon malaise and sleep, summon plagues. Set against werewolves, set against cats XD

The whole point of my comment wasn't ever to say 'you're wrong, this is not a ghost frame' it was to say 'yeah, it's a ghost frame, but look at the type of ghost, aren't all these things it's supposed to do something cool and have applications in the game?'

Exactly this.

Mythology has great ideas for frames and could easily be exploited. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Son_of_Anubis said:

From I understood I thought you were telling me I was wrong on how I envision it. My bad maybe I misunderstood.

Apologies for the misunderstanding ^^

But there is one more thing I think you'll agree with me on:

Why were DE willing to change Garuda's 4 when we, the fanbase, said that after Revenant we found those kinds of steering-the-animation types of abilities un-fun and very limiting, but then not willing to change Wisp's 4 when we, the exact same fanbase, gave the exact same feedback this time around?

Don't you think that's a bit... weird?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Apologies for the misunderstanding ^^

But there is one more thing I think you'll agree with me on:

Why were DE willing to change Garuda's 4 when we, the fanbase, said that after Revenant we found those kinds of steering-the-animation types of abilities un-fun and very limiting, but then not willing to change Wisp's 4 when we, the exact same fanbase, gave the exact same feedback this time around?

Don't you think that's a bit... weird?

It reminds me of Khrora's release a lot. In that case they had a whole different skill set than ultimately appeared that was beholden to a change to the damage system that never materialized. What was to be a Warframe devoted to showcasing the strengths of each status type became simply a Warframe with an extra companion. She still has remnants in the kit from the previous design, her Venari toggle was a stance change between the three, which is why her spikes change to denote it between aesthetically "Slash" spikes, "Impact" spikes, and "Puncture" spikes rather than something indicative of "Attack", "Healing", and "Defense". In the end her Slash whip is all we have of the original theme, and since the interesting part would have largely been impact and puncture being useful choices, the theme falls flat. 

Wisp needed to drop with this update, and it would have been unexcusable otherwise. Though it's a far cry from pretty much any imaginable "Wisp" it's basically what could be done in the time frame. Without a large content drop imminent, they can, and will need to focus on fixing Wisp. Like Khora, it's just not going to be at release and likely will never appear as the original theme intended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to assume there's still things DE isn't telling us about Wisp's kit, because everything I've read and seen so far just makes me look back in shame at how excited I was at the concept back when we just had a name and some floaty animations. The little bits of info we got made her seem right up my alley, potentially. Now all we've got is a passive and a 2 that look pretty rad, and a DIY disaster show superglued onto them for the rest of her kit.

I don't have anything to contribute, really. Just hoping against hope that DE is making the dumb mistake of being coy about something REAL IMPORTANT that we'll figure out once she's actually in our hands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, F8ted said:

and since the interesting part would have largely been impact and puncture being useful choices, the theme falls flat.

I think the phrase you're looking for is 'unbelievably weird choices' on this...

The idea that Impact, if used multiple times, would literally send an enemy into orbit instead of keeping them on the ground within the area where you could actually kill them? The idea that all Puncture does and ever will do is decrease enemy damage, but unless it scales to 100% that's effectively nothing due to how much damage enemies can scale up to even at 1%?

Honestly, I'm glad that Khora has a fully functioning kit in general. It's not what DE wanted, but it's a practical kit that does have a lot of scaling potential. Especially with the way the CC works and combines to multiply damage (as all good CC should) to groups of enemies. And while Venari's stances are now the Attack, Defend and Heal stances, those aren't actually all that bad because Venari can be modded for fairly decent damage, is a constant source of enemy distraction that you can heal with your own damage, and is also a very significant heal-bot whenever you go below 90% health.

For a Warframe that has no direct damage mitigation in their kit, like Khora, having a recovery function like Venari is actually pretty good in combination with all the damage and CC she can output.

Now the trick is to ensure that even if Wisp isn't what we strictly wanted, that we test the crap out of her to see if she's actually functional too. The sun-laser doesn't make sense, that's true, but does it actually hold up mechanically when we get her? The buffs don't appear to wonderful at first, but do they actually do things we didn't notice? (People are pointing out that there may be a health regen on the health buff, and I personally noted that it's actually a hefty boost at the point it was being used, adding over 400 points of health, which is really good for tanky frames.) And even I didn't catch, the first time around, that her 2 also makes Wisp invisible for the duration along with the the large floating decoy, so enemies a more-or-less forced to re-target and stop shooting in her direction when she casts it.

Wisp may not be, as many people were hoping, a Stealth frame due to her amount of time spent invisible. But she is a blend of stealth, buffing, damage mitigating and damage dealing. And I'm getting Rhino in mind when I think about it. Rhino actually has only one ability that lets him be tanky, and it's great if you use it well, but he has low direct damage, he has a straight-forward damage buff, and he has a great radial CC which even doubles the damage of his 1 when used... So if Wisp has a decent team buff, really good damage mitigation, a decoy and teleport function, radial CC (we don't know what else her 3 does now) and direct damage that can be scaled up? Yes the blend isn't what we were expecting from a frame titles 'wisp', but if she actually functions...

Then we may have gotten a fairly good deal out of this, even if we didn't get the ideal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I think the phrase you're looking for is 'unbelievably weird choices' on this...

The idea that Impact, if used multiple times, would literally send an enemy into orbit instead of keeping them on the ground within the area where you could actually kill them? The idea that all Puncture does and ever will do is decrease enemy damage, but unless it scales to 100% that's effectively nothing due to how much damage enemies can scale up to even at 1%?

Honestly, I'm glad that Khora has a fully functioning kit in general. It's not what DE wanted, but it's a practical kit that does have a lot of scaling potential. Especially with the way the CC works and combines to multiply damage (as all good CC should) to groups of enemies. And while Venari's stances are now the Attack, Defend and Heal stances, those aren't actually all that bad because Venari can be modded for fairly decent damage, is a constant source of enemy distraction that you can heal with your own damage, and is also a very significant heal-bot whenever you go below 90% health.

For a Warframe that has no direct damage mitigation in their kit, like Khora, having a recovery function like Venari is actually pretty good in combination with all the damage and CC she can output.

Yeah, the redesign never surfaced. Of course it would make 0 sense to use the current status effects as themes, because well of IPS only Slash is at all useful, and of the rest it's basically limited to Corrosive, Viral, and Gas. Since nothing they suggested actually added damage to impact or puncture, slash was always going to be mechanically better. Now I'm pretty happy that she wasn't stuck with a kit that was based off switching between two useless stances and one useful one, but it is damn near the case currently. Attack is basically worthless in any content that matters, and Defend is literally useless, leaving heal both subpar and de facto. The best damage mitigation is really the halfway decent armor she has inherently, and that she can sacrifice Venari to cheat death. Khora is doing alright, mainly because whiplash deals some godly damage, the rest of her kit is designed to cc the whole room and transfer her damage between them, and now she has an extra loot effect like Nekros/Hydroid.

That being said, Impact and Puncture are super useless right now, and have been since damage 2.0 when they were switched from being another elemental type like toxin, to a buff to the inherent stats of the gun and given useless procs. Since the system could not be figured out by the time of Khora's introduction, the entire system was scrapped. Though whispers of intent may still go around every now and again, we have no reason to expect a fix to IPS in ever. Wisp, I believe, was a re-look at stealth that got screwy. Primarily due to our drought of any stealth Warframes, and relatively laughable current lineup, it was well an opportunity to whip up "portals" and "wisps" into a new stealth bundle. One of the bigger issues, similar to the IPS changes, is that stealth isn't exactly fixable within a Warframe's kit. Try as both you and I might, and presumably DE, there is just no real reason to stealth outside of not being targeted and stealth multipliers to damage. Sure it's nice to be able to go into a stealth mission, but they are almost universally disdained. Stealth represents a strategy that grants far less reward for much more effort. In a space ninja game it seems like it should be useful, but it never amounts to anything. To ball and chain Wisp to Spy and similar, would be a design mistake in the current atmosphere of Warframe. 

So what do you make if stealth is absolutely useless? A passive that gives near permanent stealth, objective based buffs, and AoE damage. The opposite of what was "basically useless" not for doing it's job poorly, but because the job is undesired. Khora loses IPS association, Wisp loses Stealth association, these systems are still screwy for years. Actually they need some serious help in the balancing territory. The "release it and let players sort it out" attitude only continues because players have taken it as doctrine that nothing is ever going to be a challenge in this game. Nothing is game breaking because virtually everyone wipes out a room with a single button press.

I have had ups and downs in opinion on Wisp. Virtually just makes me wish that the systems that cause these recurrent issues were eventually fixed. I know none of the current devs have any idea how to implement, but that seems like a current dev problem. They are really good with art and atmosphere 5/5. For general balance they are a hard 1/5, I have actually layed off the balance criticisms of every other game because there is literally 0 here and they are doing just fine. For general Warframe/Hero options 2-3/5 and guns 1-2/5. Most of either category is generally regarded as useless, and while when a Warframe is on point it's a pretty cool package, many times they have 1-2 abilities they are used for and nothing else matters. Also, they experiment with new mechanics with each new Warframe, but rarely retroactively apply successful mechanics to preceding frames. I know you and I see differently on the Zephyr issue, but to me, Titania's flight is amazingly fun. It is terribly limited by energy mechanics that also just suck, but Zephyr makes me wonder what exactly they saw her being used for years before PoE even dropped. To the same note, both Inaros and Nidus proved that Valkyr would have been much better off with extra health and no shields, yet she has an ability that deals damage based off remaining shields. There is very little difference between Equinox's 4 and Ember's 4, however by allowing Equinox to largely ignore armor, allowing it to do further damage based off your allies damage, and allowing energy to regenerate while it's being used, Ember is considered needing a rework while Equinox is OP. Back to stealth, Ivara's is actually terrible, they could have learned from their mistake and made it a long duration based buff. Now she is Queen of AFK farming and 3rd/4th choice for Spy because of how slow she is. Sure good with a bow though. 

There needs to be an overhaul of plenty of system foundations, and they need to stop being afraid of progress. They have detonated entire Warframes, Maps, and Missions yet it always seems for some needless goal of the devs while players have some pretty legitimate concerns. Some of these changes would be little more than removing trash mechanics and adding known useful mechanics. Some require thinking on an incredibly analytic scale as things that sound cool (Impact ragdolling) may have no use when they are a choice next to something that actually improves TTK (Slash Bleed). It's also rough posting here, at least for me, anything more productive than criticism. Forum posters are an interesting bunch, and while I'd really like to work with the devteam, it feels like I'd be better off going outside and yelling in their building's general direction than posting here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

God, i wish she was a more ghostly frame.

1: ghost form, become invisible, invincible and gain the abillity to go through enemies, dealing a bit of damage

2: take control of an enemy, become him and gain some interactions depending on the enemy, for example corpus being able to cancel lasers in spy missions by calling the pager, infested becoming immune to damage from the toxin clouds, and give it a really big range, and perhaps be able to see enemies through walls in a range, so we could teleport from enemy to enemy with a super speedy animation similar to suggested 1.

these two abilities as a basis for her would be awesome, could be unique and fun, and give a reason to play as her that's not just about nuking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Clucktrap said:

God, i wish she was a more ghostly frame.

1: ghost form, become invisible, invincible and gain the abillity to go through enemies, dealing a bit of damage

2: take control of an enemy, become him and gain some interactions depending on the enemy, for example corpus being able to cancel lasers in spy missions by calling the pager, infested becoming immune to damage from the toxin clouds, and give it a really big range, and perhaps be able to see enemies through walls in a range, so we could teleport from enemy to enemy with a super speedy animation similar to suggested 1.

these two abilities as a basis for her would be awesome, could be unique and fun, and give a reason to play as her that's not just about nuking.

You and a few of us here. 

These happened right after her first reveal, to no avail. Though I am certain she is due for some massive changes after release, sadly I think the devteam is adamant that she has lost her "ghostly" theme. Best we can hope for is a useful kit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i might be one of the 10 people who are incredibly excited for wisp and will use her regularly, even if most people think she'll be bad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, kimisanerd said:

i might be one of the 10 people who are incredibly excited for wisp and will use her regularly, even if most people think she'll be bad

I'm with you on this one.  I'm very excited.  I think people are making some strong statements about wisp before even getting a chance to play her and see how she feels in mission.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kimisanerd said:

i might be one of the 10 people who are incredibly excited for wisp and will use her regularly, even if most people think she'll be bad

I'm definitely excited for wisp, though I am a bit cautious. Definitely going to spend plenty of time testing her skills and voice out where I think she needs improvements. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kimisanerd said:

i might be one of the 10 people who are incredibly excited for wisp and will use her regularly, even if most people think she'll be bad

 

1 hour ago, CeejAttack said:

I'm with you on this one.  I'm very excited.  I think people are making some strong statements about wisp before even getting a chance to play her and see how she feels in mission.  

Dudes, I'm glad for your enthusiasm but in any release there are going to be those who stand firm in support while against a tide of opposition. I've even seen a few defending the new Sonic movie. One begins to wonder if the appeal is simply to be contrary to the general opinion. See, if the Warframe is unpopular, those who still care to use it will be some of the few. Instead of a small army of new Wisps dominating every mission, only a small dedicated few will play her. It's like playing Titania or Vauban just to make sure no one is going to copy you. This is fantastic for those who feel like they get to play a way that isn't exactly flavor of the month, but terrible for the bottom line of the game. 

There is a reason why virtually every game that releases new characters makes them "over powered" to begin with, followed by some balance tuning. The hype of a new character release and the desire to own it quickly before being left behind is usually the driving force behind sales of these characters in any game. For Warframe, if they screw up Wisps release, they will have about a month to bring her up to par (in fact past it briefly for desirability) or she will never make any money. By then people will have a chance to watch others play her in mission, and unless they are doing better with Wisp than others are doing with like Equinox, there will be no reason to switch tactics. Effectively no bump for people to be like "hey Wisp is really good, if I want to do 80% damage l had better get her". No "Wow it's taking too long to farm her and I need her now so I'm going to buy her straight out". 

So in short, you guys will be an integral part of her being changed, and in the end, buffed. Someone has to play her to show everyone where she lies on the effectiveness scale. For every mission a dedicated Wisp player embarks on, they will show 3 people how effective she is next to their main. It will not take long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2019-05-05 at 10:57 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I think that a lot of the player base will not agree with you. Frames are all balanced, unmodded, to take on level 30 content (it's why they level up to 30) according to DE. With modding, frames are able to take on much higher content, and again, this is according to DE.

Where that might be the intention, I think a lot of the player base will disagree with you mostly because I have been around the block a few times. I have been in multiple large guilds in the past and have been playing the game since early on. As you start to get towards level 50-60 certain frames, if not modded towards mostly staying alive, will  die quickly. Mirage is one, ember, Khora (though she has CC if she takes too much fire or someone is killing your 2 target before it can propagate). Of course the Caveat to this is that they are supposed to be able to kill things, which keeps them alive because the enemy is dying first. However in most cases this does not hold up because depending on the frame they start to fall off as early as lvl 30 (START. This does not mean things wont die, it just means that you will start to notice a big decline). 

Not only can wisp (which was presumably modded [she had 500 base health and 400 or something base shields] ) not do a level 35 mission soio which mind you, would be a feat for some of the previously mentioned frames [again this does not mean they could not do it, it just means at best it would be rough] ), but her Kit does multiple things wrong that they said they did not want to do. It's 4 locks you into it so you cant do anything else (though you can move, so that is a plus), but her 2 encourages you to stay in one place (the buffs). Now I know there are plenty of comparable abilities currently in game, but that does not make it right. Also consider that they spent a good half a year working on nerfing the likes of Ember, and Mesa, and Mag for those very same reasons. all of those frames had abilities that either were "press 4 to win', encouraged you to stay in one spot, or both. 

Now I do not, personally, have an issue so much with abilities that encourage you to stay in one area (I do not like "press 4 to win") as long as the game play is engaging. They said they wanted to make the game more active, and I do not disagree with that notion either. Not only that, this kit is no where near a "portal themed" warframe or a ghost themed warframe.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She is very similar to summoner from Doom

0d_AB17R14U.jpg282?cb=20160528032006

 

They look similar and they have simmilar abilities

Wisp can summon her "vessels" and summoner summons demons

Wisp sends waves of energy on the ground and summoner also does that

Wisp teleports and summoner also teleports(or moves very quickly)

So yeah...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Wyvern_WX-0-1 said:

Not only can wisp (which was presumably modded [she had 500 base health and 400 or something base shields] ) not do a level 35 mission soio

Again, this preview was a preview only.

This frame cannot be judged fully on this because 1; the person playing it is known to be easily distracted and has had a very poor record of performance when, specifically, previewing frames in the past. And 2; there is a very good chance that this preview was intentionally played a little worse to encourage the idea that this new game mode they were also showing off was a hectic and challenging game mode.

Wisp was not struggling. Wisp was barely being played.

But more on the actual point here:

My response to you was specifically geared around the comment you made of 'most frames struggle at level 30', which you even back up when you say level 50-60 that frames will start to die if not modded well. And my specific response was that while DE believes unmodded frames can handle level 30, the players have proven time and again that this is just the beginning value, even when unmodded.

A modded frame does not struggle at level 30 unless the player themselves struggles. We have literally too much power for those basic levels in this game.

But I do find it interesting that you swerved this back on to Wisp, and then... as if you haven't read any of this thread barring my reply to you... repeat the exact same points that everyone else, including me, argued for weeks.

Well done. You're up to speed. Congrats for joining us on the same page there.

Also, do check your little attempt at ego there, I joined in the same month as you, I've run clans and alliances, I'm a product of the long-run metas from the Void Key era, and I can match any anecdotal evidence you bring to the field in that regard. Not only that, I've spent time actually teaching players to play this game, showing them budget setups, actual tactics, and ways to enjoy the game before they get a maxed out Vitality or similar. So I know exactly what I'm talking about when I point out what unmodded frames can do.

Next though:

11 minutes ago, foxy228 said:

She is very similar to summoner from Doom

No, you stop that! Bad tenno!

Do not make me want to carve up the new Warframe with a chainsaw.

That's only supposed to happen when I play her and I'm proved right about her abilities being terrible.

Stop it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Wisp was not struggling. Wisp was barely being played.

Rebb was using every ability wisp had, I wouldnt call that "barely being played". We (as a community) are also more intelligent than what you try to insinuate. We can tell she is not paying full attention. However, we can see how effective wisp was when her abilities were being used. The radial blind was only mildly effective at CC, she has two utility abilities that do not contribute to damage, and one damage ability that was struggling to kill level 35's (not to mention not touching the amalgum enemies). There is not the excuse of "well rebb was distracted" with the demonstration because Wisp's kit is  very one dimensional. As in her 4 you turn on and aim in the general direction, and the buffs you just keep returning to to refresh. The radial stun you just use occasionally. Nothing in her kit takes effort or is interactive (other than the aoe stun commng also from your buff stations, but that does not count and is not even substantial if it did). Which is the main problem with her kit. I also dont buy your conspiracy that they wanted to make the game mode look harder. I would not call failing a mission multiple times over something that builds hype. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wyvern_WX-0-1 said:

Rebb was using every ability wisp had

She cast her survival ability (which grants invisibility at base, but also creates invulnerability after a teleport, which she only used once) only around 5 times in the entire mission, she used 4-5 instances of her buffs, she used the new 3 precisely 3 times and failed to even explain what it does now, and missed 50% of her shots with that 4, and the shots she did place rarely, if ever, aimed effectively at more than one enemy at a time (when they've said it has punch through to hit multiple enemies in a line to scale up the damage faster).

Not only that, there was barely any use of in-air invisibility either.

That is what any player would call 'barely being played'.

But you seem to be missing the point here: Have you not read how disappointed I am with the kit? I have provided multiple, exceptionally long posts about the topic. You are arguing something that I have already argued. My opinions on this kit are exceptionally well documented in this thread, and your insistence on repeating my own points back to me is ridiculous.

For somebody claiming to be part of the intelligent Community, your reading comprehension could use a little work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

She cast her survival ability (which grants invisibility at base, but also creates invulnerability after a teleport, which she only used once) only around 5 times in the entire mission, she used 4-5 instances of her buffs, she used the new 3 precisely 3 times and failed to even explain what it does now, and missed 50% of her shots with that 4, and the shots she did place rarely, if ever, aimed effectively at more than one enemy at a time (when they've said it has punch through to hit multiple enemies in a line to scale up the damage faster).

Not only that, there was barely any use of in-air invisibility either.

That is what any player would call 'barely being played'.

But you seem to be missing the point here: Have you not read how disappointed I am with the kit? I have provided multiple, exceptionally long posts about the topic. You are arguing something that I have already argued. My opinions on this kit are exceptionally well documented in this thread, and your insistence on repeating my own points back to me is ridiculous.

For somebody claiming to be part of the intelligent Community, your reading comprehension could use a little work.

She kept refreshing her buffs (so she was using it more than you want to make it seem like), Her 4 is A GIANT LAZER FROM THE SUN and is wide enough to hit most of the stuff she was aiming at with it. Even if it is that picky with its aoe then that is just another thing to add to the list (I dont think it was that picky) because no group of enemies are going to be that grouped up. Her 3 she stated was like a radial blind and it did not even seem to do anything when she did use it. She did not use passive (in-air invulnerability) because Wisp has no means to stay in the air other than aim gliding, and that would get tedious and annoying. The point is that the abilities were not "being under utilized" as you claim. No, she was not using them constantly, but they also did not have much use. 

Think of it this way, Mesa 2 would be vastly less useful if she did not also have 4. Yes you could still use 2 by itself, but it greatly benefits her 4 in a way that makes it valuable. Wisp's abilities dont do that. Her radial blind and buff stations work together, but they dont benefit each other. This is because the aoe ability seems to be useless and it does not kill anything. It did nothing to stop the enemies from damaging the objective for more than a few seconds. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Wyvern_WX-0-1 said:

Her 4 is A GIANT LAZER FROM THE SUN and is wide enough to hit most of the stuff she was aiming at with it

So why was she missing so much?

1 minute ago, Wyvern_WX-0-1 said:

Her 3 she stated was like a radial blind and it did not even seem to do anything when she did use it.

Her 3 previously was radial damage. What we saw from the DevStream was a stun that could have been a blind, but when Rebecca said the words 'so when you use her 3', she was immediately distracted and didn't finish the sentence, we don't know what it actually does.

Likely to be disappointing. But again, how do we know if it's not being actually previewed?

3 minutes ago, Wyvern_WX-0-1 said:

he did not use passive (in-air invulnerability) because Wisp has no means to stay in the air other than aim gliding

Warframes can literally jump, double jump, aim glide, wall bounce to refresh and effectively use that passive of hers to stay invisible for a comparative time to Loki if necessary.

4 minutes ago, Wyvern_WX-0-1 said:

No, she was not using them constantly, but they also did not have much use.

She was using the 4 constantly, and she was using it badly. The abilities that could be actually useful out of her kit (and I say could in a loose term), were not used more than I can count on one hand for each.

How is that not under-utilised?

Even with as disappointed as I am in the abilities as they stand, I'm fairly sure that any one of us playing that mission instead, with even a modicum of attention, would be mowing down enemies of that level, even with damage reduction penalties. If that radial blind also emits from her 1's placements, for example, we might not need the range and could instead tactically place them to segment off the enemies whenever we press. If her 2 grants a guaranteed state of invulnerability on teleport, we can tank massive instances of damage with ease. With that invisibility option it literally doesn't matter that she can't stay in the air, we can blink in and out of sight with actual movement and never have to take damage in the first place in a more mobile game mode.

As I said, my views on what these abilities are and do is very negative.

But I've played enough Warframe to see and attempt to exploit the functions that I've seen so far. I can at least be hopeful that, even if she's only a C Tier frame, I can make her work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

She literally said they moved her blind from her 3 to the stun. if you want to have to jump around like a monkey (B hop, effectively) in order to utilize an ability, then be my guest. you have contradicted yourself a fwe times, and your ignoring what I am saying. SO I am not going to discuss this further with you. 🙂 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Wyvern_WX-0-1 said:

you have contradicted yourself a fwe times, and your ignoring what I am saying.

Show me where, and no, I'm contradicting you. Ignoring you would be not replying.

You're the one that's claiming, against video evidence, that what we had was an actual example of how any of us would play this frame. And worse, you're claiming that the poor showing we had is representative of how well that frame will perform overall.

And all of this debate spawning off of your utterly ridiculous comment of frames 'struggling' at level 30.

If anything, I'm glad you're going to stop this, because you were never trying to partake in a discussion in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...