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ShikiRen

Wisp Review/Early feedback

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16 minutes ago, kyori said:

Sadly as with all previous and future frames, once the power is decided n implemented, it will not change. It will only be tweaked, adjusted etc. It will not change to a total different ability.

Nowadays, take the theme and the ability of the frame with a pinch of salt as they are not necessarily related.

Super Jump, Rift Walk, Radial Blast, Overheat, and soon to be pretty much all of Vauban's kit would like to have a word with you.

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Before I start...

1 hour ago, -Amaterasu- said:

Super Jump, Rift Walk, Radial Blast, Overheat, and soon to be pretty much all of Vauban's kit would like to have a word with you.

Super Jump is now Bullet Jump, we get that function for free, why have it cost energy? (And before you say 'invisibility', that was a band-aid function DE slapped on after a year or so because the ability itself wasn't any good on its own.) And as compensation we got Exalted Blade on top of the rest of his kit. Rift Walk is now Limbo's passive and Limbo was then improved by adding in his time stop CC, the ability was not removed. Radial Blast was simply combined into Stomp to give that ability a bit of damage too and Rhino got Roar on that cast which is actually better in every situation than Radial Blast ever was. Vauban's kit is all still there and has only been added to even if the game has moved on past what he actually does. Sorry, my friend, but the only thing that you've noted on that list that's actually right is Overheat. And one exception does not disprove the overall policy in this case.

Moving on to the thread topic:

2 hours ago, Baron_Mckill said:

Also, i know im not the first to think of this

No, my friend, you aren't. There's a forum Megathread running for feedback on Wisp's previews.

Start at Page 33 if you want to see actual feedback on what they gave us since before that it's mostly people just complaining that they don't like it with no constructive stuff to add.

Most people make the mistake, though, of generalising her into a ghost... and that's kind of not what would have made her amazing. If we wanted a generic 'ghost' frame, then this is not what I would have chosen to base it on in the first place.

However, as a 'wisp' frame, her 1 does make more sense. In a few of the myths around Wisps, there's mention of Wisps getting more dangerous to humans if there are more than one of them. Wisp is then summoning 'Motes' to make herself stronger, minor wisps to support the stronger Wisp.

Out of all of her kit, though, it's her 4 that's completely out of place both mechanically and thematically. Apart from the more recent addition of allowing her to cast her 2 while using her 4, it just follows the same pattern as Revenant; locking you into an animation that you steer around. This is just, to me, the most mechanically dead-end form of ability. It does damage, whoop-de-do. What would deal better damage? Literally any kind of ability that works with all the really good sources of damage we already have at our disposal, like laying down an area that multiplies damage taken and then uses 'wisps' to draw enemies to points (to fit with the Wisp theme) grouping them up while they can't shoot at an objective. This multiplier could then tie in to her 3 by then making the 'sparks' it spawns deal multiplied (lethal) damage to other enemies and chain onwards. It could tie into her 1 by making enemies get drawn to those spawn pods, one of which is the electrified CC one for both the status and multiplied damage that would deal.

There are so many mechanical functions other than direct damage that just... would be so much more functional, scale better, and are even able to be themed to the original name.

To me, her 1, 2 and 3 seem like functional abilities that I'll be using often, if I use her 4 for anything other than meme fuel (or for levelling runs to divert 100% of Affinity gained to Wisp rather than sharing it with her weapons) then I will be honestly surprised.

::EDIT:: Hah, merged in... knew it...

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11 hours ago, (XB1)Huggs93 said:

see i think shes more of a jack of all trades with her old cc

Honestly my friend, with her old 3, she was a jack of precisely 1 trade; going invisible with or without energy cost.

Her 3 can now scale. It is now functional when she does not have her 1 active, which is a 1000% improvement just at base. Radial Blind is a good function, it's never not a good function.

But spreading damage is a better function than flat damage, even when it's flat damage and a status proc, especially when it's based on the damage you deal, not on a flat number. We have weapons that deal high damage per shot easily, and if that single shot (say, from a shotgun, bow or sniper) can then trigger a 'spark' that then deals that same damage to the next enemy, and that enemy dies to spawn another 'spark' to go on to the next enemy, this ability could easily allow a single shot to clear a dozen enemies. While they're blinded and not shooting at you.

I've not got high hopes, given some of the actual terminology they used in the description (such as 'a chance to release a spark' and 'dealing a percentage of damage') but if this ability can be modded for 100% chance to cause a Spark and 100% of damage dealt transferred over... this could be one of the more interesting mechanics that's been introduced in a while.

Also... in before this thread gets merged with the megathread...

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2 hours ago, Baron_Mckill said:

I feel like her 2 and 3 fits her. Wisps are after all light-ghosts from english folklore who tricks people into swamps.

Her 2 tricks enemies to follow it and her 3 is a light based ability. So i dont have that much of an issue with them.

Her 3 used to be a pulse from her 1, so even that was changed.

 

DE is really starting to lose it when it comes to Warframe themes.

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7 minutes ago, Ephemiel said:

Her 3 used to be a pulse from her 1, so even that was changed.

 

DE is really starting to lose it when it comes to Warframe themes.

I don't really care that much about the theme of a warframe but I do care if the abilities will be #*!%ing useless and wisp seems to be full of those. 😂

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48 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Before I start...

Super Jump is now Bullet Jump, we get that function for free, why have it cost energy? (And before you say 'invisibility', that was a band-aid function DE slapped on after a year or so because the ability itself wasn't any good on its own.) And as compensation we got Exalted Blade on top of the rest of his kit. Rift Walk is now Limbo's passive and Limbo was then improved by adding in his time stop CC, the ability was not removed. Radial Blast was simply combined into Stomp to give that ability a bit of damage too and Rhino got Roar on that cast which is actually better in every situation than Radial Blast ever was. Vauban's kit is all still there and has only been added to even if the game has moved on past what he actually does. Sorry, my friend, but the only thing that you've noted on that list that's actually right is Overheat. And one exception does not disprove the overall policy in this case.

What even are you on about? They said no ability has ever been changed so I listed a bunch that have been completely changed.

Super Jump was removed and became exalted blade. It didn't become bullet jump and both existed at the same time for quite a while. It was useless so they got rid of it and gave him something good. (that's the entire reason why band-aid Heavy Impact exists)

Rift Walk was removed and became Za Warudo Stasis, just because he can passively do it now doesn't mean that an ability in his kit wasn't changed.

Radial Blast was removed and became Roar, it being merged into another ability has nothing to do with anything.

I included Vauban because they have stated that he is going to receive a full rework of his entire kit because his pure CC isn't useful compared to what newer frames can do. You didn't disprove anything I said at all. There were abilities that were changed or scrapped and became or were replaced with totally different abilities.

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11 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

I don't really care that much about the theme of a warframe but I do care if the abilities will be #*!%ing useless and wisp seems to be full of those. 😂

I think when it comes to the theme of ANY warframe, it SHOULD be important and most certainly cared about. 

Having a thematic kit that has synergy among the abilities is what makes a warframe enjoyable, or at least, this is my opinion on the matter. 

To be honest, Wisp's number [1] ability, Reservoirs, was the main part of her kit that had me excited. Prior to the news release on the 17th, Wisp's number [3] had synergy with her number [1], but they then went and changed that (I can somewhat understand WHY they did it, however, it should have remained the way it was in addition to the new mechanics... but that's feedback for another thread.)

Wisp's [4] has always had me confused, since her ability announcement in the Dev-stream; it is obviously the most out of place ability in her kit. She has a support ability, a pseudo-crowd control / evasive ability, and (what is presumed to be) a radial crowd control ability - with her passive, [1], [2], and [3], we would assume that she was some kind of squishy-yet-stealthy support + crowd control frame that cares about mobile positioning. Then... her [4] was announced... my jaw honestly dropped; a channeled damage ability? Why? It serves no purpose in her playstyle. In addition to not suiting her theme / synergizing with her kit, it's likely going to get her killed a lot in higher level content.

 

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

This has been raised multiple times.

This is true - the Wisp Review/Early feedback thread has a HUGE following with many good ideas (though, it has mostly de-railed at this point).

 

5 hours ago, Yousho said:

I don't think anything really fits whatever theme she's supposed to have. 

She had been introduced as some sort of "Portal Mage"; meaning that she was going to have a theme based around portals. However... I have no idea how we ended up where we are today with her kit. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah but the meaning is still torch.

This is warframe where everything is perverted or exxagerated in some way. And the wisp is as much about light and fire as it is about night. Yes it is something appearing at night, but what impact would a wisp have at that time of the day without being a source of light? Light automatically connects to fire, a reoccuring theme in many tales about wisps all over the world.

And the whole idea that this frame is based on Will-o-the-wisp specifically is a stretch. It is based on wisps in general, Will just happens to be one of the main names used in brittish stories, just as Jack is the common one in american. Wisp here is more inspired by wisps (or fairies) as a whole, given her appearance and fluid animations. She is more similar to generic forest folk than the specific Will-o-the-wisp lightbulb.

 

in which case explain her 1? either she is a portal based frame or a spirit or a wisp(fire/light elemental according to you? ) , let us first understand what her theme is before we start arguing about her skills being suitable for it.

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9 minutes ago, TehGrief said:

-snip-

 

 

oh yeah I do agree with you. I'm just saying how her abilities are useless and how they don't fit the theme at all, but I guess that's what we get from a bunch of little kids spamming the praise the sun meme and making DE think it is a good idea to keep her 4th skill because it appears to be popular and not because it will be useful.

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9 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

oh yeah I do agree with you. I'm just saying how her abilities are useless and how they don't fit the theme at all, but I guess that's what we get from a bunch of little kids spamming the praise the sun meme and making DE think it is a good idea to keep her 4th skill because it appears to be popular and not because it will be useful.

we didnt even see the numbers on her abilities, how exactly do you know they will be "useless"?

also sun does fit her theme somewhat, since will-o-wisps got a strong fire icon attached to them. 

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Her abilities are the reason why I don't buy her on release.
Her 1 is not useful in the current meta / current content (also boring).
Her 2, 3 and 4 are gimmicky abilities.
So.. there is that.

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46 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

in which case explain her 1? either she is a portal based frame or a spirit or a wisp(fire/light elemental according to you? ) , let us first understand what her theme is before we start arguing about her skills being suitable for it.

1 has a very forest folk -like theme, she spawns plantlike pods with motes in them. The portal theme comes with the wisp theme since portals are a very common things in ancient myths and lore. They bring things from one realm/dimension to the other. Wisps are just one of many forest spirits.

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Suggestions for Wisp's current kit:

1st ability:

Let the motes have high range. In a fast paced bullet jumping through hordes of enemies game like Warframe, it would be too slow for teammates to have to walk close to a reservoir to get a buff. I'd like if wisp can deploy it and have friendlies in a 12-15m radius immediately be able to vacuum (loot vacuum on sentinels) the mote over and attach to them to provide buffs.

I'd also like for wisp herself to immediately get the buff as soon as a reservoir is deployed.

The buffs should also last long so constant deploying of reservoirs won't make her gameplay clunky to her and the teammates. 

The Red mote sounds like something that won't be good in the high levels since wisp is squishy. I think the red mote should give a 90% damage reduction along with increased health and fast hp regeneration. OR it can give short term invulnerability and heal your hp back up to full. It can be like nidus' undying once you have that mote attached.

Lastly, the shock mote should have high range and a decently long stun time (about 8 seconds or more). This will make the ability feel worthwhile since other frames can instantly stun/trap enemies.

2nd ability: This CC does not seem reliable since it feels too short. I think the distraction should last about 10 seconds to draw 100% of enemy fire away in about a 30m radius (Wisp is very very squishy so this range seems needed for high level content). If wisp decides to teleport, I think a big blinding light should blind nearby enemies at the new location.

3rd ability:  The damage on this has to be high for it to be worth using energy on. I wonder if maybe it should take off a percentage of enemy life depending on how much damage your weapon gives. Making it percentage based would allow it to scale infinitely. This would also allow it to kill if more than one surge spark can hit an enemy and have that percentage of HP effect have a stacking effect. Example: If your weapon deals 12k damage, a surge spark will remove 30-40% HP of an enemy it hits. If another surge spark hits the same enemy, then 60% of that enemy's HP is now gone.

4th ability: While moves like this look flashy for trailers, they don't work well in high levels because of how enemy armor etc work in the high levels. That's why it is best to give ultimates secondary uses that scale into the high levels. For example, let it "burn" away their defenses. Let it burn away shields if the enemy has it, burn away armor if the enemy has it. This way it does not become irrelevant in the high levels.

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38 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

1 has a very forest folk -like theme, she spawns plantlike pods with motes in them. The portal theme comes with the wisp theme since portals are a very common things in ancient myths and lore. They bring things from one realm/dimension to the other. Wisps are just one of many forest spirits.

Pick a theme man , stop bouncing all over the place or accept that she does not have a consistent frame of reference irrespective of her naming (generic tech demo frame number 40 would have been better i guess).

According to you:

Wisp for Fire / Torch

Forest folk for Trees/ Plants,

Portal for ancient myths and lore? seriously ? that's not even a theme unless everything or anything under the sun is a theme,

 

if you are willing to share with me the reference for some of these "very common things" in which all these are present i might agree ,but you haven't so far.

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its funny how people rage about themes and powers. disliking things because it dosnt fit their mentality, rather then de's ,kinda funny if you think about it 

least thats all ive been seeing in mix match on frame discussions as of late , kinda miss just basic discussion 

overal the new power is a smite like ability, which is useful , can be a nice mob sweeper. my only concern is kits internal synergy not the kits appearance or what others think of it matching some weird ideal concept. 

if the frame can mechanically work and provide a useful role im ok with it if its scaleable and useful 

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19 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

its funny how people rage about themes and powers. disliking things because it dosnt fit their mentality, rather then de's ,kinda funny if you think about it 

least thats all ive been seeing in mix match on frame discussions as of late , kinda miss just basic discussion 

overal the new power is a smite like ability, which is useful , can be a nice mob sweeper. my only concern is kits internal synergy not the kits appearance or what others think of it matching some weird ideal concept. 

if the frame can mechanically work and provide a useful role im ok with it if its scaleable and useful 

Personal preference mate , i enjoy things that make sense (within the context and constraints of the story) ,

i have not really addressed or raised concerns about power level or utility of the frame i prefer to test it or observe from experience before commenting about that aspect.

It is indeed DEs game and they can deploy whatever powers they want on whatever frame they want.

 

But i cannot agree with your first statement , are you implying everyone must like whatever DE puts in front of them as long as it is more powerful than their current most powerful item (or atleast as good as)? not sure how that is funny that's just sad in my books (and needs a separate discussion of frame kit synergy and scaling).

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40 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Pick a theme man , stop bouncing all over the place or accept that she does not have a consistent frame of reference irrespective of her naming (generic tech demo frame number 40 would have been better i guess).

According to you:

Wisp for Fire / Torch

Forest folk for Trees/ Plants,

Portal for ancient myths and lore? seriously ? that's not even a theme unless everything or anything under the sun is a theme,

 

if you are willing to share with me the reference for some of these "very common things" in which all these are present i might agree ,but you haven't so far.

You are complicating it.

Forest folk, which the wisp is part of covers both plants and portals. The wisp itself represents fire (all light was fire back then), it is different between cultures how  present the fire is. It can range anywhere from the dot of light (which represents will-o-wisps in many games/stories), the ghost carrying a lantern (or having a flaming pumpkin head in Jack's case) all the way to the so called Irrbloss, which is basically a living flame in the shape of a naked woman dancing in the air.

The "portals" are part of the forest folk, it is what many of them use to move or take things from their world to ours or the other way around. It doesnt have to be fancy "mage" portals, it can be anything from a hole in the root of a tree, a bonfire, a rock or an actual magic portal. It can also be something as simple as just imagining it.

I'm swedish, so I grew up with the Irrbloss and the lantern man, that is why I find the skills pretty spot on because they cover a wide representation of the theme, which is nature, spirit and fire.

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1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

You are complicating it.

Forest folk, which the wisp is part of covers both plants and portals. The wisp itself represents fire (all light was fire back then), it is different between cultures how  present the fire is. It can range anywhere from the dot of light (which represents will-o-wisps in many games), the ghost carrying a lantern (or having a flaming pumpkin head in Jack's case) all the way to the so called Irrbloss, which is basically a living flame in the shape of a naked woman dancing in the air.

The "portals" are part of the forest folk, it is what many of them use to move or take things from their world to ours or the other way around. It doesnt have to be fancy "mage" portals, it can be anything from a hole in the root of a tree, a bonfire, a rock or an actual magic portal. It can also be something as simple as just imagining it.

I'm swedish, so I grew up with the Irrbloss and the lantern man, that is why I find the skills pretty spot on because they cover a wide representation of the theme, which is nature, spirit and fire.

Guess we will just have to agree to disagree due to cultural differences , but neither of the entities you mentioned has any of the aspects of the current frame at the same time.

I am just not used to seeing a plant demon / deity shooting lasers and a fire demon /deity plucking plants out of its ... nether regions in any of teh myths i have heard *except that one demon that ate the gods and stole their powers but irrelevant for current discussion).

 

If it works for you fine , just know that you have been unable to convince me of your point of view refgarding the consistency of the frames theme.

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2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

we didnt even see the numbers on her abilities, how exactly do you know they will be "useless"?

also sun does fit her theme somewhat, since will-o-wisps got a strong fire icon attached to them. 

She has the fail abilities of different frames. her 1 is stationary, her 2 takes too much time to blind the enemies, her 3 might be the only useful one but we need to see if the blind time can be modified with stats and her 4th sucks because it is a channeled ability that does heat and rad damage for a squishy frame lol

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1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Guess we will just have to agree to disagree due to cultural differences , but neither of the entities you mentioned has any of the aspects of the current frame at the same time.

I am just not used to seeing a plant demon / deity shooting lasers and a fire demon /deity plucking plants out of its ... nether regions in any of teh myths i have heard *except that one demon that ate the gods and stole their powers but irrelevant for current discussion).

 

If it works for you fine , just know that you have been unable to convince me of your point of view refgarding the consistency of the frames theme.

As I said, you complicate things. Like seeing them as something very narrow and specific. That just isnt the case in general when it comes to "pagan" folklore. They arent demons or deities of this and that, they arent evil or good, one power doesnt prohibit the other etc.

And when did we get to the point where Wisp is shooting lasers or plucking plants out of her...? All her skills revolve around the use of portals (or teleportation). The plants come from a portal, the spreading damage comes from a dimensional fracture and her ult is based around a portal that lets through the suns intense energy.

I mean even if you cant see the Wisp theme, the portal theme is there to 100% in her current itteration.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Because we need another frame who's powers don't line up with their theme

Except they line up 100% with one of their planned themes for her. All her skills are based around the use of portals, which is one of the intitial concepts they had for her. The wisp theme can be interpreted depending on what is classified as a wisp in your specific cultural area and how much you can stretch it within WF design terms (which is usually alot since they love pervertion and exaggeration of the inspiration, which is cool to me).

I can personally see the wisp theme. Though it may not be everyones cup of tea.

1. Plant pods with motes in them, fits the whole forest folk theme that comes with the wisp.

2. Illusionary stunt double with teleport, yeah that works and fits fairly well.

3. Dimensional breach which has many small aggressive lights/motes attacking enemies based on damage. Yep fits the whole forest folk thingy.

4. Open a portal to a massive ball of fire called the sun. Yeah maybe not really a lantern or litterally leading people to their demise buuuuut... it does indeed lead to their demise. It somehow fits with the regular approach they take with warframes.

I just think people stare blindly on the name and expects something very fantasy/folklorish down to the smallest thing when the name in reality fits fairly well in on the current kit.

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In the preview trailer for her, didn't it show that her 1, while a deployable, doesn't need to be near you for it to work? All you have to do is walk on it and it gives you a buff that follows you around. Personally that sounds like it should work relatively fine. If I remember correctly (can't check it again atm) one of the options is a speed buff. Pop it down right before a speed run and with enough duration you should be good to go.

Really at the end of the day I would suggest just waiting for her to come out to see how effective she is. If we don't like it, DE will most definitely hear about it and make changes accordingly.

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35 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

She has the fail abilities of different frames. her 1 is stationary, her 2 takes too much time to blind the enemies, her 3 might be the only useful one but we need to see if the blind time can be modified with stats and her 4th sucks because it is a channeled ability that does heat and rad damage for a squishy frame lol

plenty of good abilities that are stationary.
her two takes a button press to blind
nice that you actually know the numbers on her 4 to declare it to be trash. would you like sharing it with us? 

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