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ShikiRen

Wisp Review/Early feedback

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18 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm referencing wisps in general. DE as far as I know never stated specifically Will-o-the-wisp though.

Wisps are any tiny thing do we really need to go into it? Again? , I see you referencing multiple generic folklore with no relation other than that it is folklore and hoping it's coherent enough, it's not in my books. 

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Most frames are. I dont think there is a single frame that follows their name/theme to 100%. Name some frames that are perfectly designed based on their theme. I can think of maybe a handful.

Saying there are no frame that is 100% and then saying there are a handful, make a decision cannot be both. 

I can easily name frames that are completely suitable and follow a good consistent thematic design across their kit, Nezha, chroma, ash, Frost, ember, Saryn, Vauban, Octavia, banshee, Harrow, zephyr, Mesa, excalibur, Ivara, Atlas, hydroid etc. 

At the same time there are just as many inconsistent frames, and wisp is just the latest. 

30 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Grasping for straws with those "portal" thoughts on several levels. You are missing the point that Warframes arent tied to the actual mythological things DE may draw inspirations from. There is no world tree to open portals to, just as Wisp doesnt open portals to any spirit dimension. You are really having a hard time accepting and understanding what the themes really imply. Nekros doesnt raise the dead, he uses nano technology to patch up and control the dead or destroyed. It is all just advanced tech and void manipulation.

You asked me to use a portal against specific skills, I used em and they are far more viable or at least as believable than how wisp is using them to grow plants (the skill description of wisp 1 literally says it is from another dimension who is to say there is no dimension for the world tree? ) .  You are just sour that I thought of it when you believed I couldn't.

The point was any skill can be called a portal based ability and is a weak justification to just accept cause they have run out of ideas. 

And using a completely different frame, which does not even have any relation to the topic, I wonder who is grasping straws here. Nekros might as well be creating a portal to the dead energy dimension, you see how stupid the whole "portal theme" is? Anything can be a portal themed ability. 

I am glad you agree that applying portals is just dumb as a means to justify an ability, now apply that same thought and logic to the current discussion. And tell me applying portal concept to wisp is an intelligent idea.

The problem isn't  me understanding, problem is you providing a suitable explanation so I can agree to your point of view, this is a discussion not a debate, I already mentioned we could agree to disagree but you decided to try and convince me to your views anyway and have not succeeded so far. 

40 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'd guess that depends on the matter. Here we are talking about materilizing things from the void to do whatever we want. If those motes are tiny particles of light then so be it. 

Last video I saw there are no particles of light, just a pitcher plant thing on her 1. If it was a literal instance of light (like the sunburst dojo decoration or the power conversion or health conversion effects then you would be partially right, but it's not) 

46 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

We'll have to see how it turns out when she is released. 3/4 skills fitting 2 themes would be pretty good, along with a passive that also follows it.

Not sure if the release will affect thematic consistency only the effectiveness of the skills,

You still haven't been able to explain a suitable theme in a single sentence unless the sentence is" generic germanic folklore frankenstein figure with a portal taped to its forehead " In which case you would be right. 

52 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also a side note. People (you) take it a bit too seriously anyway. Have you forgotten that WF already has it's own unique take on wisps implemented in the game, it's been like that since the release of PoE. Same as with how it classifies the use of motes.

Classifying people based on one conversation, does not suit a civil discussion (which I thought this has been so far). I always keep my discussions to the point and within context, my articulation may make me seem serious but I do not see that as an issue, are you concerned that a serious discussion is a problem? You are free to walk away if you do not wish to continue. 

Assuming you mean the cetus wisp, it floats and then it flies away if you get too close, appears to be made of sentient bones or stones , does not grow plants or shoot lasers or create sun portals, was used in creation of some parts and accessories. 

I fail to see how it is relevant, care to explain? Or are you trying to add another theme On top of light, portal, germanic folklore beings and forest elf?

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2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

there are tons of examples where they do work but k. 

 

Go on? 

The only people who can put down stationary things and have it be good are Frost and Limbo, and to a lesser extent, Gara. And they all function drastically differently to Wisp's deployables and even THEN they're only useful in specific modes. 

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2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

there are tons of examples where they do work but k. 

 

Go on? 

The only people who can put down stationary things and have it be good are Frost and Limbo, and to a lesser extent, Gara. And they all function drastically differently to Wisp's deployables and even THEN they're only useful in specific modes. 

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2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

there are tons of examples where they do work but k. 

 

Go on? 

The only people who can put down stationary things and have it be good are Frost and Limbo, and to a lesser extent, Gara. And they all function drastically differently to Wisp's deployables and even THEN they're only useful in specific modes. 

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3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Classifying people based on one conversation, does not suit a civil discussion (which I thought this has been so far). I always keep my discussions to the point and within context, my articulation may make me seem serious but I do not see that as an issue, are you concerned that a serious discussion is a problem? You are free to walk away if you do not wish to continue.

I'd call BS on that though. You are certainly not keeping it within context. You cant even accept that there is a wider view on the theme centered around a wisp because it would break your whole criticism. And this is especially true since we talk about how a wisp theme is depicted in a game. Even in many fantasy games it is very wide (and accepted by most) and this isnt even that type of genre.

I mean you claim you keep things within context when you suddenly go and place outside-lore (game lore that is) into your arguments. Things completely unrelated to WF itself, like your Yggdrasil comment. I'm trying to argue how something can fit within the WF lore and still have a concept/theme from something else without having to be that exact thing. An actual wisp for instance wouldnt fit in WF because there is no lore whatsoever that indicates that religious myths and legends are true in that universe. So the thing comes down to "what can be done with the theme here?". 

As for the portals (and even the motes which I'll get back to) they are actually visible when she uses her skills. It is indeed a theme for the frame to explain how she gets the stuff to work as they do. Where does the portal lead? Some dimension, the void or similar. And regarding the motes, you have probably missed that there are things popping out from inside the plant pods when friends/enemies get near.

Anyways. In the end, what some may find acceptable and appropriate enough for the theme is the same here as with comic book characters. There simply is no right or wrong regarding what a person think. I personally think wisp fits well with the theme, both having powers that justifies the name aswell as having powers that do fit the portal and light themes they decided on.

As for the frames you mentioned. Yeah I can see Nezha, Ash, Frost, Ember, Octavia, Harrow, Zephyr, Mesa, Ivara and Hydroid being pretty spot on. Howerver Chroma, Banshee, Saryn, Atlas and Vauban really lose their themes in my mind.

Chroma has the look and maybe his #1 that implies dragon, his #2 and #3 really doesnt speak much to me regarding any theme, #4 fits with the story of Chroma from the codex. Banshee just got lost badly somewhere. Where is the whole frightening Banshee thing going on with her? It is like they got more inspired by Banshee from Marvel than actual banshees. Saryn is also missing the theme. I would never have guessed plants was her theme, my mind went directly to a plague demon when I saw her and played her. Atlas is simply too generic and bland, nothing that actually gets my mind going towards the greek/roman pantheons and the man holding the world on his shoulders. Then Vauban who is supposedly inspired by a genius master war-smith/engineer kinda misses the mark too. No part of his kit screams engineer. Gadgeteer maybe, but that is about it. Where are the defense turrets, the portable defense covers, the repair stations and possible robot/war-engine minions?

Then when it comes to frames like Frost and Ember, it isnt exactly hard to be 100% spot on. You need to hit two very simple marks, one being cold/ice/frost/snow, the other heat/fire. With the others you mentioned though, they are really pieces of art down to their their kits, looks and mechanics involved. Their themes are self explained. I have one question though, what exactly is Excals theme? I mean is he supposed to be some specific type of swordsman, a knight or what?

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il y a 3 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Then Vauban who is supposedly inspired by a genius master war-smith/engineer kinda misses the mark too. No part of his kit screams engineer. Gadgeteer maybe, but that is about it. Where are the defense turrets, the portable defense covers, the repair stations and possible robot/war-engine minions?

Give him a tank with a big gun. 😁

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8 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Give him a tank with a big gun. 😁

Hell yes! They should give him some #*!%ed up minions resembling the tank Reavers from Marvel. Basically human upper bodies with cybernetic augmentations and their lower body is a tank. Just make it warframey and instead of held guns or rocket launchers just give the thing a big frakin torso that is a massive cannon.

Heck, NeoCore is doing something like that with their upcoming Tech-Adept summoner class in the Martyr arpg. Two big ass gun platforms of death as summons.

edit: Or better yet, let us equip them with guns we own!

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1 hour ago, Yousho said:

Go on? 

The only people who can put down stationary things and have it be good are Frost and Limbo, and to a lesser extent, Gara. And they all function drastically differently to Wisp's deployables and even THEN they're only useful in specific modes. 

dat 3 quotes.

nidus, oberon, garuda, hydroid, khora, mag, octavia, saryn. with that three added, its already the vast majority of frames with deployables. there are also some less obvious ones like vaubans bastille and ivaras cloak arrow.

frost, limbo and gara are useful in majority of content with their deployables as well, not just in a few specific cases.

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il y a 1 minute, Zeclem a dit :

frost, limbo and gara are useful in majority of content with their deployables as well, not just in a few specific cases.

In most content all frames are useful. You can even play with an operator and be effective.

Another thing is that Gara will be useful always and in all situations while frost will be useless if you do not need to create a protection zone and you use corrosive auras. Gara will always help his team better than frost, while requiring less effort. Sorry, her passive blinds her enemies just because she exists. I understand that frost is not so bad, but he could be better.

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Just now, zhellon said:

In most content all frames are useful. You can even play with an operator and be effective.

Another thing is that Gara will be useful always and in all situations while frost will be useless if you do not need to create a protection zone and you use corrosive auras. Gara will always help his team better than frost, while requiring less effort. Sorry, her passive blinds her enemies just because she exists. I understand that frost is not so bad, but he could be better.

frost is a bit better at protecting objectives than gara, and has an aoe armor shred. thats pretty much it. 

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à l’instant, Zeclem a dit :

frost is a bit better at protecting objectives than gara, and has an aoe armor shred. thats pretty much it. 

Well, frost is easier in terms of increasing the protection of the dome. Yes it is. And removing the armor is a good support. (Especially when enemies don't have it.) But the problem is that we still have two abilities that, to put it mildly, are never used for their intended purpose.

Of course, there may be some sort of secret about these abilities, which only true frost mainers, who sit in dark basements under the air conditioner, know to get better into the role, but the truth is, I do not see much point.

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16 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Me: this frame doesn't really feel like it's made of a single concept but more like a patchwork of things DE just wanted to showcase cause it will look pretty. Not sure if it even has a theme. 

You: the showcase can be used effectively I am sure of it. 

We are debating different things friend, it's like I am saying "it doesn't look blue" and you say "but it's round",

notice that I have not talked about the effectiveness of the kit at all. 

and also the first few paragraphs about you complaining about complainers isn't even relevant to the main topic, feels like you just have a bias for feetless legs. 

 

the feet thing was an example of how community gets ragy about random stuff 

the concept itself is simple , theme is sun  and ghost mixed 

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il y a 56 minutes, (PS4)sonicizanagi a dit :

Anybody else think wisp is just a new light frame, instead of a portal frame?

I just think that Wisp could complement the lor of the warframe forest theme. Become an addition to Oberon and Titania. 

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10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'd call BS on that though. You are certainly not keeping it within context. You cant even accept that there is a wider view on the theme centered around a wisp because it would break your whole criticism. And this is especially true since we talk about how a wisp theme is depicted in a game. Even in many fantasy games it is very wide (and accepted by most) and this isnt even that type of genre.

I mean you claim you keep things within context when you suddenly go and place outside-lore (game lore that is) into your arguments. Things completely unrelated to WF itself, like your Yggdrasil comment. I'm trying to argue how something can fit within the WF lore and still have a concept/theme from something else without having to be that exact thing. An actual wisp for instance wouldnt fit in WF because there is no lore whatsoever that indicates that religious myths and legends are true in that universe. So the thing comes down to "what can be done with the theme here?". 

Am I the one that is talking about folklore outside warframe or you? Yggdrasil is just one example and was only to prove that anything could be associated with portals, call it with any other name or change it to a bone dimension if you wish and it still is fine. Yggdrasil is not the main topic, you gave example of folklore you thought was suitable but is not in game I gave another one. You opened that door with talk of forest folk, I just expanded on it. 

 

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

As for the portals (and even the motes which I'll get back to) they are actually visible when she uses her skills. It is indeed a theme for the frame to explain how she gets the stuff to work as they do. Where does the portal lead? Some dimension, the void or similar. And regarding the motes, you have probably missed that there are things popping out from inside the plant pods when friends/enemies get near.

There is the stationary leafy thing and the floating pitcher plant thing, I haven't seen  the pitcher plant give off any light so far, maybe with the final version, but I doubt it

And coming to mote please expand on your thinking , last time I checked mote was a particle of dust not associated with light

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Anyways. In the end, what some may find acceptable and appropriate enough for the theme is the same here as with comic book characters. There simply is no right or wrong regarding what a person think. I personally think wisp fits well with the theme, both having powers that justifies the name aswell as having powers that do fit the portal and light themes they decided on.

Yes opinions about things of abstract nature need not have to be absolute. But you need to be able to justify it sufficiently for others to agree with you. 

And I suppose you are now of the opinion that it is purely a light and portal theme with little relation to spirits? 

 

As for the frames you mentioned, 

Chroma is more dragon slayer  that has a dragon pelt with magic properties he has fused with. 

Banshee is the screaming spirit, she really could use some more spirit aspects but she got the screaming/sound part down well. 

Saryn is the harbinger of toxic disease /plague. Not sure about the flower part. 

Atlas is the titan holding the earth, Atlas is all shoulders cause he holds up the earth, Atlas throws pieces of earth, Atlas carries more pieces  of earth, seems fine to to me. 

Vauban, poor vauban, throws balls that do stuff, not sure about how gadgeteer is different from engineer, both create devices with specific functions. 

Excalibur is the martial progeny (knight/samurai) able to wield the sword of light. Seems straight forward to me but he was the very first frame before the Devs had to think up themes and concepts, they did it pretty well considering. 

 

Once again as I said, not concerned too much about the naming itself. 

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10 hours ago, Zeclem said:

dat 3 quotes.

nidus, oberon, garuda, hydroid, khora, mag, octavia, saryn. with that three added, its already the vast majority of frames with deployables. there are also some less obvious ones like vaubans bastille and ivaras cloak arrow.

frost, limbo and gara are useful in majority of content with their deployables as well, not just in a few specific cases.

... None of those things you've just mentioned are anything like Wisp's 1. Like, they're not even remotely approaching being in the same region as approximately being somewhat arguably close to Wisp 1. 

I'll give you Khora, since I did mention the frames with similar deployables. 

But Mag? Garuda? Saryn?! SARYN?!?! 

Things like Frost make *some* sense to compare because they're abilities that are most/only effective if the player stays in the part of the map where they exist. (Even Garuda usually just uses it to heal and moves on, and things like Oberon or Mag do not require you, the player, to remain in the same area for them to do their job)..OR they're put on something they're supposed to defend. I can't remember the last time I saw a Frost or a Limbo being used for something that wasn't defending an objective. And Wisp's deployables don't defend anything from external gunfire... So it can't as effectively defend a stationary target, which means that it's mostly useful for when players want to stay in one place but don't have a station target to defend... Which is never. If you DO have a defence target... Then Frost or Limbo just do a better job.

You're correct in saying that things like Vauban and Hydroid also fall into this category, and they're typically considered bad. 

 

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40 minutes ago, Yousho said:

... None of those things you've just mentioned are anything like Wisp's 1. Like, they're not even remotely approaching being in the same region as approximately being somewhat arguably close to Wisp 1. 

they are all stationary. 

Quote

I'll give you Khora, since I did mention the frames with similar deployables. 

But Mag? Garuda? Saryn?! SARYN?!?! 

mag has her 2, garuda has her 2, saryn has her(again) 2. all deployables, which was the main point against wisps 1 being bad.

"they work nothing like wisp's abilities", in what way? they are support/cc deployables. we already cleared the fact that deployables arent bad by any means, and how exactly an ability that provides healing, max health, speed and aoe cc buffs (those buffs actually do move after the motes got sticked onto an allied player as well) is bad? 

hydroid isnt bad since his rework. boring? subjectively yes. but no, absolutely not bad. hes pretty good actually. 

and vauban is considered bad cus of other reasons, not cus of his kit being made of deployables. 

 

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3 hours ago, Zeclem said:

hydroid isnt bad since his rework. boring? subjectively yes. but no, absolutely not bad. hes pretty good actually. 

and vauban is considered bad cus of other reasons, not cus of his kit being made of deployables

They are not good at all, they still need work

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12 hours ago, zhellon said:

I just think that Wisp could complement the lor of the warframe forest theme. Become an addition to Oberon and Titania. 

What would she add? She doesn't look like she's related in anyway.

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17 hours ago, Yousho said:

The only people who can put down stationary things and have it be good are Frost and Limbo, and to a lesser extent, Gara.

While this argument has gone at a tangent, I would like to offer up a different take on things.

Quite a few frames have deployable abilities and very few of them work the same, this does not mean that deployable abilities are bad, or that they don’t inherently function as well.

We have many, many game modes where deployed abilities work, the obvious Defense and Mobile Defense, but also Interception, Excavation, Defection, Salvage, Sabotage, even Survival can be played in a small area that we visit frequently enough to deploy an ability.

What’s always important is what the ability is and does it do what it says it does well enough.

For example, Wisp’s profile says that the Health aura gives health over time along with a large boost in max health, wouldn’t it be interesting if this was almost as strong as Garuda or Oberon if modded well? On a 1 cast?

What happens if her shock aura is as strong as Tesla, but without charges, can be refreshed, and follows players instead of needing to be stuck manually to them?

And while players do come on the Forums regularly to complain about Volt’s Speed, what happens if this is a more controlled, longer duration cast that players can choose not to pick up, but has all the same benefits for those that do?

Just looking on the potential positives here.

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Buffs can be good, but something tells me that health regeneration will be only in the area of receiving buffs, the control buff will have charges, which will be extremely small, and the speed, well, this speed, is useful but possible without it.

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8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Am I the one that is talking about folklore outside warframe or you? Yggdrasil is just one example and was only to prove that anything could be associated with portals, call it with any other name or change it to a bone dimension if you wish and it still is fine. Yggdrasil is not the main topic, you gave example of folklore you thought was suitable but is not in game I gave another one. You opened that door with talk of forest folk, I just expanded on it. 

 

There is the stationary leafy thing and the floating pitcher plant thing, I haven't seen  the pitcher plant give off any light so far, maybe with the final version, but I doubt it

And coming to mote please expand on your thinking , last time I checked mote was a particle of dust not associated with light

Yes opinions about things of abstract nature need not have to be absolute. But you need to be able to justify it sufficiently for others to agree with you. 

And I suppose you are now of the opinion that it is purely a light and portal theme with little relation to spirits? 

 

As for the frames you mentioned, 

Chroma is more dragon slayer  that has a dragon pelt with magic properties he has fused with. 

Banshee is the screaming spirit, she really could use some more spirit aspects but she got the screaming/sound part down well. 

Saryn is the harbinger of toxic disease /plague. Not sure about the flower part. 

Atlas is the titan holding the earth, Atlas is all shoulders cause he holds up the earth, Atlas throws pieces of earth, Atlas carries more pieces  of earth, seems fine to to me. 

Vauban, poor vauban, throws balls that do stuff, not sure about how gadgeteer is different from engineer, both create devices with specific functions. 

Excalibur is the martial progeny (knight/samurai) able to wield the sword of light. Seems straight forward to me but he was the very first frame before the Devs had to think up themes and concepts, they did it pretty well considering. 

 

Once again as I said, not concerned too much about the naming itself. 

I was simply mentioning folklore becuase it isnt narrow, so wisps can carry alot of different attributes.

Motes are simply small specks of something, this includes particles for instance.

I still see the spirit inspiration. Nothing wrong with mixing to get an interesting looking end result.

I dont see anything dragonslayer-ish about Chroma. If that was what they were going for then they missed the mark even more. The only dragonslayer connection I get with Chroma is that they released Gram with his Prime version, that is about it. 

And yeah, the screaming part on Banshee fits, but that is about it, that is why she feels like an frame inspired more by the Marvel character than an actual banshee.

For Saryn it is simply that she has too many flower themed cosmetic options. 

Atlas being themed around earth just isnt enough for me to get any connection to Atlas. They could have named him anything earthlike and it'd spot on, but going for a mythologial theme like Atlas and just doing generic earth elemental stuff? It just feels shallow.

And dont get me wrong with Vauban, if he wasnt inspired by an actual war engineer I wouldnt think much about his skills. But we are talking about someone that invented a bunch of different war-related stuff and not just small "batman" gadgets. Vauban should have been a real war-smith with a bunch of lethal and impressive looking toys. Think Torbjörn from Overwatch but with more creations.

As you say, Excal was one of the first frames. I guess back then they didnt think of the frame in the way they do now. I think their naming came more in the shape of someone naming a Mech or something. It has a sword, lets give it the codename Excalibur, cos Excalibur was a sword.

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11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It just feels shallow.

Guess I feel about wisp as you feel about Atlas. 

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9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Saryn is the harbinger of toxic disease /plague. Not sure about the flower part. 

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

For Saryn it is simply that she has too many flower themed cosmetic options. 

Saryn was named after Sarin gas, which is an incredibly toxic chemical weapon. They slightly switched her name because they didn't want to be associated with the use of it in the media at the time.

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Excalibur is the martial progeny (knight/samurai) able to wield the sword of light. Seems straight forward to me but he was the very first frame before the Devs had to think up themes and concepts, they did it pretty well considering.

 

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

As you say, Excal was one of the first frames. I guess back then they didnt think of the frame in the way they do now. I think their naming came more in the shape of someone naming a Mech or something. It has a sword, lets give it the codename Excalibur, cos Excalibur was a sword.

Indeed Excalibur was the first Warframe. In more ways than one. He was based off the character Hayden Tenno from the Dark Sectors game. In Warframe lore this was the first attempt at a powerful warrior that would fight similar to the Dax Soldiers, with gun and sword. Granted there is something to the naming was a little different. Like it was blunt. Volt, Mag, Frost, Ember Rhino and so on. Most pretty much "this does this" as the name. To be fair, you are probably right if you saw only those Warframes names and guessed what their powers would be. With only the name "Wisp", people may have guessed her 2. 

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